Salvia Experiences

[Nicole]

I've smoked 10X extract-enhanced salvia a few times, and it always seem to have to the same effect.

Sometimes I begin laughing uproariously, but then I fall back into something that can only be described as 'a trance state.' I usually see a picture of some sort, although it's typically not anything interesting. (It's usually an altered version of whatever I saw just before closing my eyes.) The main theme of the trance state seems to be repetition for me. I will see an image and think a thought like "Nothing's happening" - and that thought will be repeated continuously until I awaken from the trance. After I think, "Nothing's happened" about 80 times, it will suddenly dawn on me that such repetition is not normal and something *did* happen. That's it. That's my experience. Every single time, albeit with slight variations. It's always the feeling that something is being repeated. I recall Daniel writing in his book that he experienced a "time loop" with salvia, and that sounds somewhat like what happens to me.

However, I don't find this particularly profound or meaningful at all. Halfglass recently wrote to me, "salvia 10x will make a believer out of anyone." I'm certainly affected by it, but I have not made any sort of contact with strange realm or entities. I have not had an out of body experience. The experience is not even something that I can reflect on and learn from. Typically, I've read that psychedelic experiences bring a sense of clarity and increased perception. This felt like the opposite, almost like I lost consciousness for a moment. In a basic sense, it reminds me of when I was little and would spin around very fast to get dizzy. (Our first fascination with altered states, perhaps.)

On the salvia scale, it appears that I reached Level 3. Level 4, however, is what really sounds interesting. Why can't I make that jump? I've smoked it out of a bong, with a butane lighter in darkness and silence. I've held the smoke for a long time. Does anyone have any other suggestions? I'm almost ready to give up on this substance.

[Morninggloryseed]

Many peopl ehave trouble getting Salvia divinorum to work for you. If you are folowing all the rules (including the most important one of smoking it in complete silence and blackness at night) just keep up with it. Eventually, she will make contact with you when you are ready. Trust me.

[Nicole]

Thanks. It does *something* to me, although I'm not sure exactly what, and I keep thinking, "That CAN'T be it."

I am completely 'entranced' during the experience - not conscious of reality at all, totally out of it. I keep wondering if perhaps I have experienced the full effects, and maybe "meaningful visions" are things that happen indiscriminately and randomly, and not all the time. Like in real life, perhaps. I don't know.

[Halfglass]

Nicole: Salvia is in a class all its own. I find it a bit demanding. My first shot of 10x gripped me in a headlock where my head was "out" of my body and partially in what can only be called a parallel world of orange tiered light. There was a presence, although nothing like my face to face encounters with organic/metallic insectoid/robots on 1200mg DXM. I had the loop thing happen on DXM where my thinking got into a sort of puzzle within a puzzle--like getting stuck on a notion of a notion of a notion. Once or twice this happened and I had to get up (from my closed eye trance) and walk around and get it out of my head. In the great DXM faq at dextroverse, the author discribed that unpleasantly difficult state as something that has been reported (with DXM). But it only really happened heavy once when I wasn't expecting it, and I was able to steer my thoughts from getting involved in the puzzle thing after that.

[Morninggloryseed]

Originally posted by Nicole:
I keep thinking, "That CAN'T be it."

Well you will know when it is it. ;) Trust me. There will be nothing to question. Except for smoking DMT or 5-MeO-DMT, NOTHING rivals smoked Salvia divinorum in intensity. It is like having your head ripped open and then experiencing your ego being shreaded. It's not exactly pleasant. Or for me it wasn't for me. It is simply an experience. But I did find the experience useful and I do not regret it.

Personally I don't think the plant was not meant to be smoked (neither to the Mexican shamans who have been using this plant forever). If I ever experiment with Salvia divinorum again, it will be the more 'proper' quid/chewing method.

[ June 17, 2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Morninggloryseed ]

[Rob P]

My Salvia experience has been with the tincture, held
in the mouth, similar to the quid method.....
'Twas my first psychedelic encounter, and it was the most
intense spiritual experience of my life!!
There are no words to describe it accurately..
Remember Ellie in 'Contact' when she said,
"They should have sent a poet'.....
well-we all have the opportunity to be the poet,
and no words are neccessary.

[Nicole]

Halfglass: Yeah, the DXM FAQ is wonderful. I read it a couple years ago and found it fascinating. I tried some low dosages and found that, as I increased the dosage, I couldn’t stay awake. Fell right to sleep. Ah well!

Morninggloryseed: I’m planning on trying 5-MeO-DMT with a friend soon. Any advice or suggestions? I’m a bit wary because I’m somewhat psychedelically inexperienced. I’ve done almost every drug *except* for the psychedelics, in fact – and those are the very things I’m interested in. I just don’t know where to find them, unfortunately. Should I wait until I’ve tried psilocybin or LSD, or should I just jump right in?

Yeah, Rob, that’s what I was hoping for. I am very interested in the spiritual potential of psychedelics (particularly the tryptamines), but I find that I have more “spiritual” experiences with things like meditation or music, or even just walking in the woods. No such luck with chemicals yet, except perhaps MDMA. The MDMA trip has always seemed somewhat artificial to me, though. It’s a great deal of fun, don’t get me wrong – but no important insights into the nature of reality. That’s what I’m looking for.

I won’t give up on the salvia just yet.

[Morninggloryseed]

Originally posted by Nicole:
Morninggloryseed: I’m planning on trying 5-MeO-DMT with a friend soon. Any advice or suggestions?Look inside your heart and ask yourself if you are ready. 5-MeO-DMT is like dying. In fact I am almost convinced the brain is flooded by it during near-death experiences (5-MeO-DMT is produced naturally in the pineal gland only we have no idea what it does). I can't tell you what to do. I'd say aquire some 5-MeO-DMT and put it in the freezer and save it until you have a few experiences with psychedelics a little less other-worldly like LSD or mushrooms. WHat is the rush?

But I should let you know I gave 5-MeO-DMT to a psychedelic virgin and it changed her life. But she was a woman in her 40's who was used to meditating and out-of-body experiences. SHe had also experienced death before on the operating table. I was told she was ready so she is an acception. Here is her story (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=14482).

You may be younger and less experienced. You may not be ready, but only you would know. Look inside your heart.

If you decide to go foward, I'd have some music you love and listen to it through headphones. Make sure you use a classic feebasing DMT pipe and have a friend assist you. A dark enviornment is best. Outside in a safe and secure area is better.

I hope to god you guys have a milligram scale to weigh this stuff because there is nothing dumber than eyeballing a dose of 5-MeO-DMT. The differences between what may produce a mystical experience and a scary back-out are a just a few milligrams. It looks like a few grains of salt. A scale is a must to work with this material. Anything else is simply irresponsible use.

I use 8 mg at a time. No more, no less. It's the perfect dose for me. Be careful.

One more piece of advice...love yourself. If you are uncomfortable with who you are, or certain aspects of your life, avoid 5-MeO-DMT until you get them resolved because the drug will throw them in your face and you will have to deal with them there and now. Best to get it fixed first so you can deal with other things on 5-MeO-DMT.

Good luck.

[ June 18, 2003, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Morninggloryseed ]

[Nicole]

Wow. Thanks for the advice. If I do decide to do it, it will only be after I've read everything I can on the substance. I'm exceedingly cautious.

"WHat is the rush?"

In a very basic sense, I feel stuck in a certain way of perceiving the world and I want a glimpse of other possibilities. I study these things academically, and I'd like to continue these explorations in graduate school in the fall. However, reading and writing about something is not the same as experiencing it.

"The rush" is my personality, I suppose. It is a drive I feel within me, a search for truth that I feel often controls me (as opposed to me controlling it). On an intellectual level, I know the value of patience, and letting things take their natural course. In reality, I want to know now.

[sire_012]

real good idea to try and get as much info as you can before this experience... but know that no amount of information is going to prepare you for this. in my mind, *the* most anomolous entheogen to come down the pipe line... ever.

if you want some info check out these sites:

http://www.entheology.org
http://www.sagewisdom.org
http://www.salvia-divinorum.org/
http://www.salviadivinorumcorps.org/

and of course erowid.org

step lightly and enjoy!

[sidecross]

Expectation is an impediment in exploring psychedelics.

"…In a very basic sense, I feel stuck in a certain way of perceiving the world and I want a glimpse of other
possibilities…"

As Ramana Maharshi who spoke in the first part of the 20th century when asked by western visitors about such esoteric questions, would answer by asking, "who is asking the question"? I think he poses a serious question and a fundamental one.

[Nicole]

Thanks, sidecross. I've been to all those sites.

As for the "Who is asking the question?" anecdote, I understand that on an *intellectual* level. I've read various philosophies on our perhaps misguided conception of "self" and the boundaries of the ego. There is a large gap, I find, between knowing something and *understanding* something, though. I know, but I don't understand. I read the books. I understand the theories. Words and concepts, however, can only go so far. I'm looking for an experience.

Does that make sense?

[sidecross]

"…Does that make sense?"

Yes, but the fundamental questions of who experiences the experience still remains.

Alan Watts, who you have said you read and liked, once asked Daisetz T. Suzuki about satori, and he answered it was like the everyday world, but an inch off the ground.

[ June 18, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: sidecross ]

[sire_012]

i'm sad to say that if you're going to do any experimenting that you should probably do it very soon.

"It appears that the DEA is in the process of moving towards making Salvia divinorum a controlled substance. An article about this will appear in USA Today next week."

i have no idea how long this will take.

apparently the push rests on the false belief that the majority of people experimenting with salvia are young adults/minors.

what a shame to see the misunderstanding continue.

peace

[Nicole]

sidecross:

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I love both Alan Watts and D.T. Suzuki. I might even say that AN INTRODUCTION TO ZEN BUDDHISM changed my life.

sire:

Thanks for the update. I have a gram at home, but maybe I'll buy some more before it's too late.

[Woodpecker]

"I'm looking for an experience.

"Does that make sense?"

Yes, Alice. Down the rabbit hole with you.

(And go there in peace and wholeness, and return in peace and wholeness.)

[Luna]

As my first post on the board, having just finished BOTH a couple days ago, I thought I'd state my agreement with the idea of learning all you can about new substances before trying them. Whatever you're getting into it's usually a good idea to have some knowledge about potential side effects or where you might be going. I wouldn't want to be thrust into a world I wasn't at least trivially prepared for.

[Nicole]

Oh, no need to worry there. I am a tireless researcher. My first love is books, not psychedelics.

And I'm cautious to a fault.

[Luna]

haha,

yeah I'm pretty much the same way. I've read about far more substances than I've managed to experience first hand at this point. Part of that is because I really believe in the whole "set and setting" and I won't jump into something unless I can get those right. I have some Salvia but I havn't managed to take it yet because I want to go camping when I try it and I'm too busy with my damn job lately. I don't want to come into it stressed out or angry, and I don't want to do it at home. I suppose I threw that all away when I tried mushrooms in my friends living room and it managed to be a pretty incredible experience anyways, but I had spent the month before hand reading as much as I could get my hands on and talking to people on message boards....

I think that maybe I intellectualize experience too much and maybe I've gotta just stop reading and waiting for the right set and setting and just take the plunge. Maybe what I do is a way to distance myself from something that does, admittedly, scare me a little. It's a lot easier to resent the monotony of daily life than it is to step out of it for several moments and into a world that can teach me what I claim to be looking for. I hope that's not what I'm doing, maybe I'm just being careful and responsible, but who knows.

~Jenn

[Proteus]

Luna says: I think that maybe I intellectualize experience too much and maybe I've gotta just stop reading and waiting for the right set and setting and just take the plunge. Maybe what I do is a way to distance myself from something that does, admittedly, scare me a little. It's a lot easier to resent the monotony of daily life than it is to step out of it for several moments and into a world that can teach me what I claim to be looking for. i know what you mean, Luna. Often, even when i've taken the plunge, i feel like the intellect is so busy trying to sort things out, control them, and make comparisons between what i'm experiencing and what i've read that i miss the full depth of the experience--or that i'm inadvertently fighting an experience that isn't so bounded by familiar intellectual forms as my over-educated brain would like.

No doubt caution and some degree of clarity (if not confidence) when going into any experience--psychedelic or not--is wise. Yet, i keep returning to the fact that millennia ago, people without written language, Internet discussion fora, or even experienced elders to guide them, tasted enough flora (and, if you count toads, some fauna) to discover that you could transcend consensus reality and come back to tell the tale (and as a slightly different, often better person). Those folks in the Amazon that somehow discovered that boiling caapi vine & mixing it with various root barks and leaves could take entire communities on a tour of Otherspace (often the same tour at the same time) must have spent generations experimenting with brews and various "spiritual" techniques before they achieved consistently productive results. (God knows they didn't stumble upon yage because it tasted so good!)

The folks who ate psyilocibin shrooms, salvia, cannabis, datura, etc. didn't have books by Terrence McKenna, Jonathan Ott, & Daniel Pinchbeck to draw them rough maps of a few choice locations along the psychedelic landscape. They didn't have zillions of trip reports to consult on the Internet. Those folks actively sought something deeper than bare survival and just screwed up their courage and tasted for themselves what was and was not available. And then i remind myself that what one person has done, another can do.

i don't know about others, but i still get butterflies every time i "take the plunge." Reading didn't make the fear go away--& it didn't shut up the ego that desperately attempts to delay and distract me from finding out how insubstantial, constructed, and temporary it is--but it did eventually convince me that entheogenic substances are our human birthright. It did convince me that the psychedelic community (and a few others) are in a literal fight-to-the-death with forces that want to circumscribe human imagination and potential so that we'll be compliant consumers. And, to my great surprise, it convinced me that there are Otherworldly forces for good that have made entheogens available to human beings in order to facilitate our spiritual and (presumably) our biological evolution--and to fight against the powers that would deny us not only our birthright but all joys that don't come from making a new purchase.

[Rob P]

Right on Proteus!
After I purchased Salvia I had read
some precautions online, etc,
and I was still quite hesitant, not knowing
what to expect. I read reports of
other people's experiences,
and it was all very interesting and
intriguing, and I was sure I would
know when I felt 'ready'....
After a few weeks like this,
I suddenly realized there would
NEVER be a 'right time', so one night
I just decided to go for it.

I warned my wife about what I was about to do,
I had her read some prep info online,
and she ended up becoming my semi- unprepared sitter. She was a bit resentful afterwards,
but all I could offer was that I didn't know
what would happen, would never know
until I actually did it, and thankfully she was there
to assure me I was OK.

I am so glad I jumped in.

Even as the experience was beginning,
I told myself-'well, I have NO idea what will
happen, but I am prepared for that'.
This is why we are here.
We never know what's around any corner.
If the opportunity is waiting for you,
the time will never come
when it feels like the right time.

I guess this is like people
who are waiting for the right time
in their life to get married, have kids, whatever....
I always tell people, when I do tell them,
that they have to experience for themselves,
life is not a spectator sport.

Reading about psychedelic experiences
is like reading about making love,
reading about the weather,
or reading travel diaries.
How much more enjoyable if you
have been there yourself to really
relate to what is being described!!

Happy July 5th!!!

[daniel]

Hi everyone,

I've been traveling, good to see everyone is chatting. Nicole, I am looking forward to hearing your 5-meo report, if you decide to try it. This is one of the most profound substances there is. I have also noticed anecdotally that women seem to love it while men have more difficulty (perhaps because it requires trust and surrender). Start with a tiny tiny amount and work up.

I would also recommend the Salvia tincture, in darkness, though the taste is tough.

[Luna]

Proteus, how right you are my friend.

When humans discovered entheogens we most certainly didn't have books to fall back on, it was quite possibly totally accidental. Or who knows, perhaps early humans were already more connected to the spirit worldand they were guided to which plants could help them explore on an even deeper level. Considering how close they were to the Earth, and how disconnected we are I'd hardly be suprised.

There's really no way to know if they had some tip or recommendation before discovering the wonders of psilocybin, yage, peyote, amanita muscaria... but the point still is that intellectualizing psychedelics is in many ways a hinderance.

Half of my brain is telling me, 'ok, stay in control, know what you're getting into, understand the experience right now.' whereas the other half is saying 'fuck off ego and rationality, everything is Love, this is Home, "i" belong here (even though "I" don't exist)...' Ration and ego create anxiety and attempt to control what's happening. I think they're symptoms or perhaps the causes of my need to intellectualize experience and/or hide from it by waiting for the "right moment."

This actually all reminds me of a guy I used to be friends with. From my perspective he seems to intellectualize and ego trip his life more than I can understand even though I catch myself doing it too. He's afraid of any experience which threatens the sense of control he has over his life, including friendships and relationships, not only psychedelics. He maintains an outward appearance of being confident, kind and easy going most of the time but as I got to know him I realized that he was virtually incapable of letting go for even a few moments. He drinks too much, it's the only thing (hes willing to try) that will make him chill out for a little while.

This whole need to be in control of himself and all situations in his life is what eventually broke the friendship (he became a hugely inconsiderate jerk... the nice front was a pretty thin mask.) But the more I think about it the more I realize that most people are probably like that to greater or lesser degrees. I see some of it in myself, but I recognize it so I'm trying to break it down.

I think mushrooms would be good for him but he's afraid of them. I actually tried them for the first time in his house with another friend but he just wanted to watch us, tease me and ask me what I was seeing which was really annoying because talking felt wrong and I wasn't up to having to make my mind work like that.

Anyways, I suppose the point was that he's an example of controlling experience through avoidance and overintellectualizing. Something I must stop doing.

Tommorrow evening I'm going downtown to a shop called "The Spirit Within" in Vancouver where you can buy entheogens including Salvia, Ayahuasca, mushrooms (under the counter), peyote, and a whole bunch of others. I'm going to try something called the dream herb, I can't remember it's proper name but it's smoked before bed and induces lucid dreams. I'll post back with the details fairly soon.

[Nicole]

Without a doubt, I am also guilty of over-intellectualizing. However, even worrying about something like that is like having anxiety about having anxiety, isn't it?

Nevertheless, I think exercising a certain amount caution is beneficial when dealing with substances that have the ability to shatter our realities. The more I read about 5-MeO-DMT, the more I think I should postpone my trip until I've gained a bit more experience. I will try it someday, but not yet.

Daniel - yeah, I was thinking about buying the salvia tincture. I was planning on buying it from MJB Botanicals, since their product contains a standardized 2 mg of salvinorin A per ml. (I don't know of any other company that has a standardized product.) I want to order it soon before it's made illegal.

[sire_012]

yeah, I was thinking about buying the salvia tincture. I was planning on buying it from MJB Botanicals, since their product contains a standardized 2 mg of salvinorin A per ml. (I don't know of any other company that has a standardized product.) iamshaman.com has a *wonderful* tincture that is lovingly made and very effective.. about 5 droppers will get you in a workable space.

[forteanajones]

How long would such a tincture keep & how is it stored?


...
Daniel - yeah, I was thinking about buying the salvia tincture. I was planning on buying it from MJB Botanicals, since their product contains a standardized 2 mg of salvinorin A per ml. (I don't know of any other company that has a standardized product.) I want to order it soon before it's made illegal.

[Proteus]

So Mrs. Proteus & i have sort of made this deal that we'll drink yage & have a little ceremony every full moon--or the closest Saturday evening there is to that event. Last weekend was no exception. We'd had an exceedingly pleasant experience last month. (Oddly non-visual last time, but extremely verbal. i was speaking in tongues--yeah, weirder than weird--for about 5 straight hours. Felt like i was getting more comfortable in yage-mind & might be able to go deeper into it.)

Ironic, given my recent brave talk about shutting down the ego & boldly venturing forth, how last weekend went. It feels like i drank way too much brew. i'm still pretty rattled! This was the most intense experience i've ever had, bar none (including my first aya experience posted elsewhere)! It was still killingly, agonizingly beautiful. Yet, it was remorselessly humbling--and, on balance, not-so-pleasant. i wouldn't trade the hour of moaning in the agony of ecstacy on the floor, tears streaming down my cheeks that anything could be so incredibly, vibrantly beautiful. i wouldn't trade the excitement and pleasure of gradually increasing my repertoire of "songs." (Man! What one sees when one sings under the influence of aya can't be rendered in words worthy of the vision.)

And i saw something new. Every thing that moves has a music to it, apparently. The music of my muscles moving (sometimes involuntarily to huge bolts of Aya energy, sometimes just to hear the sound) was a strange combination of mechanical sounding and musical (sort of like steel drums, flutes, and fuzzed-out bass in something that was at once jazz-like & Nine Inch Nails). Breathing has music, likewise beautiful. And all this music somehow came together in a coherent, but truly alien way.

But, then all movements in what felt like all places throughout the Totality began to join this small orchestra & i found myself completely and thoroughly overwhelmed by this inner sound. i couldn't shut it off & soon desperately craved a few minutes to do so. i begged for a chance to pull back, find "myself" again & have a chance to regroup & think about what just happened. NO WAY. i began to panic that i'd never be able to get back to whatever the hell normal is & to add to my un-ease, i began to have the very unsettling & not-so-pleasant sensation of seeing myself from an objective perspective. The constructedness of the self--it's complete artificiality came at me as the inner symphony of the cosmos became too much to bear. i was literally nauseated at the vision of my self. The affable guy that gets along pretty well in consensus reality seemed almost rank with pretense & pettiness & insignificance. i hurled &, unlike my other aya experiences, this did not feel like a cleansing of the soul. It didn't indicate a move toward a calmer, more serene, more humanly warm sense of this world. i didn't come back from the brink more IN my reality than i'd ever been; i stayed out on the very edge of non-entity for what seemed eternity.

i was afraid to close my eyes for fear of seeing any more visions, but it didn't matter. The visuals were there with my eyes open & the sense that i was being taunted about my every gesture, every thought, every mannerism, every kind (and not-so-kind) intention still haunts me when it's dark and quiet. i'm glad i've experienced this, but i'll be damned if i completely understand what the hell just happened.

i know this is a rambling wreck. What's the old advice from creative writing class? Write what you know! i know wrecked right now.

The only point of sharing this--other than most folks on this list at least have some inkling of what this could have been like--is to say that even joy and beauty can be painful when there's no ego-construct to filter the flow of information. And also to come at the discussion of when a person is "ready" for this kind of vision from another angle. The set & setting for my recent experience were ideal. i know a great deal about the effects of aya from reading and personal experience (though i'd have given a lot to have been working in an experienced group the other night to help me deal with my terror more productively). The fact is no one is ever completely ready for what i just saw. Which is not to say that experiencing the agony and the ecstacy for oneself is unnecessary or better left to others. Just saying that there's no way to get used to this water without taking the plunge, head first.

Incidentally, Luna and Nicole, i gained a new respect for the ego-construct this weekend. It's an evolutionary necessity to function in this space-time. Seeing it for it what it ultimately is--provisional, artificial, and dangerously delusive has me smarting. But, today it occured to me that this knowledge, rather than just being humiliating and painful can also be liberating. If the self is a necessary construction to make being and functioning in our space-time possible, then one can approach the creation of that artiface consciously like an artist. One can understand that this self is not permanent, not essential, not real in the Absolute sense & yet one can see that it is nevertheless a product of the imagination and the will and go about creating this sand castle with gusto, knowing that it will soon be washed away.