The Ancestors

[Halfglass]

There is something going on with ancestry that I am surprised not to find any metion of in trip reports. Several times I had unmistakable entrance into Ancestor Caves. In one, there is a powerful Englishness. I sense face-powder and homemade dentures. I am given the mind of an Englishman of perhaps the 1700's. I feel the almost fanatical mind-set of this yesteryear person (is/was it me?). I instantly understand where he comes from: "If they are not English, they are savages." There is a person with me. As the whole glutinous, bewigged form of atrocity and suffering causing Englishness falls into a pit or river, the "guide" does the equivalent of spitting on it. I understand that this mindset is, or was, me. In another scene, I'm way back in-Hive, and I come into a "cave" full of my dead grandparents and great aunts and uncles. It is their bones--but not really, it's more like plastic/wood and it holds their person, in the grain. It's them absolutely. They are stuck or unwilling to leave this place. They seem withered. I wonder if their belief in Christ has rendered them fearful of straying out (least the devil get them). Now I have never anticipated such a thing as ancestor contact before I got good at navigating closed-eye. There are several other examples of this kind of thing I could give (in one I am presented with a line of knightlike men, and it is insinuated that they are my grandfathers). Anyone getting this? And, does anyone have anything on the ancestor cults in the world?

[forteanajones]

Even before I ever dreamed of trying psychedelics I always sensed that my own family was caught up in some kind of loop. In college I wrote a story about a young man who endeavors to remove a family curse imposed from when a great-grandfather opened an Egyptian tomb. I think this impression must be common as a very similar idea was put into a silly Disney movie Holes I just saw by chance on a business flight.

I firmly believe that events generations back can somehow stick to a family and get passed along, even when those events may have been lost to history. The behavioral and life event patterns I see all over my family line are eerie and too striking their similarities to be easily dismissed.

One important point might be whether we are talking about something like ancestral Ki or reincarnation. Personally I'm not sure I believe in the latter, although debating the validity of that concept might be better off in a seperate thread.

I hope we can keep this thread going, I think this is a great topic.

[daniel]

Recently I coined a term, "shadow karma," with the idea that not only do you have the karma of your own past "incarnations" (still feel that is too specific a word) but also the past of your physical ancestry, and even the karma of your racial and national origins. This other type of karmic inheritance is like a series of shadows, but it also needs to be addressed, and perhaps you can help to redeem the ancestors (who in their time were limited in certain set beliefs) as you make your own progress along the path of initiation.

[sidecross]

Supposedly we have been the same Homo sapiens with same brain capacity for 150,000 years. Has anyone heard or read of these ancestors in reports of psychedelic past memory? If we really do have a "shadow karma", should not these shadows appear in our field of visions?

Terence McKenna wrote of the Archaic Revival, surely our 150,000 year old ancestors should have an imprint on our psyche. Certainly wisdom is not the by product of only written language.

[PeoplesMind]

Supposedly we have been the same Homo sapiens with same brain capacity for 150,000 years.Actually if you beleive that school of thought, it's really about 200,000 years since Homo Sapien Sapien (intresting how we named ourselves "human wisdom wisdom" eh?) evolved from Homo Sapien Cromagnum.

Has anyone heard or read of these ancestors in reports of psychedelic past memory?he he he, i once had an expierence where i had my "entire life flash before my eyes." The curious part was that when it started, it was from the present day and it would move back with one scene from each day in the past. Curiously it went back far enough to a few glimpses of my early years, and continued on to memories i had not had (ie of my parents and their life--or at least what i had envisioned of them from stories). And when the whole thing was complete, i was at the beggining of the life of my grandparents. That's about as close as I've gotten.

If we really do have a "shadow karma", should not these shadows appear in our field of visions?Cultural evolution is always a funny thing, perhaps "Shadow Karma" does exist. (though the term was not coined by Daniel, it is by a Dr. Nicolas, in his book "Shadow and Karma" where he outlines a similar concept with the same term)

Terence McKenna wrote of the Archaic Revival, surely our 150,000 year old ancestors should have an imprint on our psyche. Certainly wisdom is not the by product of only written language.I agree, cultural evolution brought about bad as well as good, whereas we as humans are not more advanced as a species as we were 200,000 years ago (according to thorey anyway), but rather we are the collective keepers and finders of knowledge. My job (and yours) in the feild of humanity is a "Knower," not as any other profession we choose. Our job in the evolution of mankind is to learn, refine, and pass on knowledge.

peace,
Nitin

peace,
Nitin

[sidecross]

The 150,000 year figure was confirmed by the latest archeology findings in Ethiopia reported only a few months ago. Is the 200,000 figure a theoretical one?

[PeoplesMind]

Originally posted by sidecross:
The 150,000 year figure was confirmed by the latest archeology findings in Ethiopia reported only a few months ago. Is the 200,000 figure a theoretical one?Some sceitnests contend that Homo Neanderthal and Homo Sapien Sapien began to differentate about this time. There was a skull (called the "Jinniushan" specimen) found in China, carbon dated to about 200,000 years ago whcih shows this.

peace,
Nitin

[gone]

Professor Contrary of the Institute of Very Ancient Studies, Idaho, has very strong evidence to suggest that the actual figure is 175,000 years. In this light everything makes far more sense.

[sidecross]

Originally posted by gelfer:
Professor Contrary of the Institute of Very Ancient Studies, Idaho, has very strong evidence to suggest that the actual figure is 175,000 years. In this light everything makes far more sense.:cool:

[PeoplesMind]

Originally posted by gelfer:
Professor Contrary of the Institute of Very Ancient Studies, Idaho, has very strong evidence to suggest that the actual figure is 175,000 years. In this light everything makes far more sense.lol, back on topic, let me pose a question for everyone.

Why do you think it is important we realize that we a product of cultural evolution? I'll speak my views of this further later.

peace,
Nitin

[Halfglass]

Interesting. But I'm still looking for direct experiences on contact such as it might be...in psychedelic states. These events were absolutely real--I was given the mind of the ancestor. Nothing?

[ October 07, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Halfglass]

Rats!

[gone]

Halfglass – I have nothing to offer within a psychedelic context, but the ancestors issue does interest me.

I guess I’m thinking of ‘no man is an island’ and what validity this has. I consciously avoid putting myself in any ancestral or national context. From the micro to the macro, I never knew my father, have had very little to do with my extended family, have never defined myself by my surroundings and have no feeling of national identity either in a contemporary or historical context.

Clearly I do relate to people – I have a wife and child – but I do this on a selective basis rather than a connection stretching back into the past which I have no ‘control’ over. I find the idea of ancestral connections quite stifling.

Daniel – the shadow karma idea also interests me. I feel caught between a rock and hard place on this one. For example, growing up in a feminist household in the late 70s, my early boyhood was coloured by feeling apologetic for x-thousand years of patriarchal influence. I don’t feel I should make it my life’s work in redressing this – though perhaps I should, and this comment is also a little polar in reasoning, but you get my drift.

That said, I see that we do have some responsibility to address, if not redress (is there a real difference?) the sins of the (predominantly) Fathers.

We’re told that postmodernism allows us to pick and choose. This may explain my recent flirtation with my gypsy heritage – more romantic aesthetic than anything else – Leonard Cohen, ‘I used to think I was some kind of gypsy boy.’ But, as Terry Eagleton’s typically excellent new book, ‘After Theory’ suggests, postmodernism is a load of bunk allowing us all to have our cake and eat it.

Yet another case of the elusive achievement of balance no doubt.

[Halfglass]

Gelfer; thanks. Daniel, if you get this, I missed your point about redeeming was it? our ancestors whose beliefs were sadly way off. I think that may be what I was poking around. It may very well be a situation like that. In the "cave" my grandfathers/mothers were like I said seemingly afraid to venture out.

[Buzz]

Daniel,
Ancestor, racial karma is an idea I've been curious about to. As a believer in reincarnation I sometimes have wondered if we are not reborn into our own family.

Halfglass,
Ancestor worship was common around the world 2000 plus years ago. And still is an issue with some today. I've studied and taught Art History enough to know that. Anthropologist seem to agree. In Jerico, one of the oldest cities in the world, heads of ancestors were buried under the floor of the house and presumably taken out for some rituals, perhaps involving psychedelics. Most native americans had ancestor cults. Shamen visit ancestors in their psychedelic visions. Odyseuss? of Homer's "Odyssey" visited dead folks to get information. Have you ever seen the film "Emerald Forest"? It has been a long time since I have but it seems there was a segment in there about ancestors.
As a Castenada reader I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of the Tonal And Nagual. Can be refered to as the Binary Soul Doctrine. Our soul divides from our spirit at death. The immortal conscious spirit exists in limbo until reincarnation, the soul, depending on how it judges itself at death, can end up in heaven or hell. Did you see movie, "What Dreams May Come"? Robin Williams wife commits suicide and dwells in a hell of her own making unwilling and seemingly unable to escape.

[Halfglass]

Buzz hey. "Shamen visit their ancestors (in) psychedelic visions." I believe it now. Not that I'm a shaman of course, but one can do this! (I meant to say to gelfer that, whatever relations one has with their family, this ancestry connection, from what I've experienced--on different trips mind--are real and permanent.) There is no preperation needed, no training. Never seen those movies btw. The idea that we might be the ancestors has also crossed my mind. I think reincarnation might happen but not in the classical way it has been presented (with karma and all the implications of doing "good" etc.). It seems (due to things "witnessed") to me, that ALL lives are part of one story, multi-self, on up to whatever Mind in the Void that made love to itself, and said not "I am" but "We are." In the immaterialist/it-us view that I've come to intuit, we would be the ancestors anyway, by reason of awareness in the universe all originating from one Thing. (I say "things witnessed" because these ideas haven't come from some hoped-for hippy-dippy notion about cosmic oneness. Cosmic love is a thing brutal. It will teach you whether you like its methods or not.)

[ October 11, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by Halfglass:
...does anyone have anything on the ancestor cults in the world?Honoring the souls of the ancestors was an important part of the pre-Christian religion of my Lithuanian ancestors. Around the time of the year known as “Velines” (what the Christians came to call “All Souls’ Day”), the pagan Lithuanians believed spirits of the dead left the world of the afterlife and returned home to visit the family. People would hold big feasts in cemeteries with mead and music and make offerings to the gods – especially Perkunas the Thunder God – to strengthen the souls of the dead.

Though Lithuania officially converted to Christianity in 1387, the pagan traditions continued among the peasants for hundreds of years. As late as the 19th century, Lithuanians were still celebrating the holiday by heating up their bathhouses for the souls of the ancestors and leaving out chairs, shirts and towels for the visiting spirits. They would also throw a big feast to share with the souls. In some parts of the country, people prepared special dark foods for the spirits – blood soup (one of my grandfather’s specialties!), blood sausage, dried mushroom soup, etc. After the food was prepared, they would sweep the house clean, cover the table with a white cloth and then set the food on it. The host would say a prayer: “Dear souls of our dead, which this household remembers, dear family ancestors, men and women, especially my grandparents, my parents, everyone that death took away from this home, you are all welcome. Let this feast be as pleasant to you as your memory is sweet to us.”

The people would sit in silence. Then the host would bid farewell to the souls, saying, “Go where fate takes you,” and asking them to do no harm. Everyone would bow their heads and say, “There is not, there is not a soul.” Then the host would take the food off the table, turn the tablecloth over and put the food back, and the living would eat.

Even into the 20th century, Lithuanians would mark Velines by leaving windows and doors open, locking up dogs, hiding sharp objects, and heating bathhouses to welcome the souls. People would refrain from dumping out ashes on that day so they wouldn’t fly into the souls’ eyes, and they would avoid throwing out water so the souls wouldn’t get wet. To this day, Lithuanians often share a ritual family meal for Velines during which the dead are remembered.