What should I (not) try?

[michael heany]

I'm interested in the effects of these substances and curious as to try; but I've had two bad experiences with pot, which I don't do often. Both times the effect was the same, and the cause I think was excessive dosage. For several hours afterwards my sense of time was distcontinuous (it wasn't pleasant, but I wasn't freaked out). I don't know anyone else who has had this reaction. I haven't had the opportunity to do anything stronger than this, and maybe that's a good thing. I'm just wondering if, given I have had a few atypical negative experiences with such a relatively innocuous drug, I should consider anything stronger as probably dangerous.

[daniel]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for joining the discussion. I don't like pot very much either. On the other hand, an experience of discontinuous time might be valuable - it is interesting to learn there are other ways or modalities of time. Salvia divinorum once gave me a sense that I had gotten trapped in a time loop - which was not pleasant but was interesting,

I don't feel I personally should recommend any substances to people - my opinions and thoughts about many of them are in my book. However, I definitely recommend the experience of working with a shaman - either indigenous or a well-schooled Westerner. Depending on where you live and your ability to travel, that may be easy or quite difficult to do. With any substance, there is no need to jump into taking a massive dose - you can start with small nibbles and see if you like where the sensations are leading you.

[roadmaster]

>I don't like pot very much either.

Simply put: Why not?

I have always found that yes, pot does place you in a strange mode of time. In short, it slows everything down to an annoying, dragging monotony at times. But what about the marraige of sound and self? Or rather the discovery of how intricate, wonderfull, and pure music is and can be to the human ear? Being a musician, perhaps I have a closer relationship with sound.

Also, pot makes you realize, in a very kind and gentle manner(it doesn't tear the fabric of reality all that much)that all things are beyond your control. This is realized by the "stone". Depending on dosage, you can sit for what seems like hours, days, years! watching the same scenery march by like a conveyer belt(no matter, all is well). You may drop your beer before cringing at the shattering, hissing sound(no matter, all is well). You may witness your mother walk in and scold you for mysterious red eyes(no matter, all is well). Even though these are extreme examples, I have utilized them for this point:Let us not be concerned with seasons and moan when the wind ices over or the sun bakes our necks black, rather let us concern the way we feel the wind and see the sun.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by michael heany:
I'm interested in the effects of these substances and curious as to try; but I've had two bad experiences with pot, which I don't do often. Both times the effect was the same, and the cause I think was excessive dosage. For several hours afterwards my sense of time was distcontinuous (it wasn't pleasant, but I wasn't freaked out). I don't know anyone else who has had this reaction. I haven't had the opportunity to do anything stronger than this, and maybe that's a good thing. I'm just wondering if, given I have had a few atypical negative experiences with such a relatively innocuous drug, I should consider anything stronger as probably dangerous.Hi Michael,

My personal feeling is that you should follow your intuition on whether you should move on to other substances, and it does not sound like they would be good for you at this time.

Something that you may want to explore are non-drug methods of accessing non-ordinary states of consciousness. I know of Stanislav Grof's Holotropic Breathwork and I believe that Michael Harner has a shamanic program. I'm sure that there are more.

Don't be ashamed of having a sensitive nature. It could be that this will be a true asset in your quest.

Good luck.

Stephen

[roadmaster]

I have always been interested in finding connections between methods of attaining non-ordinary states. Mainly because it affirms the truth that the use of chemical catylists are not merely the product of adolescent rebellion or a genetic predisposition for addiction(an idea my parents continuously force down my throat). Even though for some(perhaps many)this is true but I have always felt I ahve been searching for more.

I was wondering if anyone has the name of a book and/or website that provides comprehensive information on breathing techniques? I would love to explore some of these possibilities.

[Stephen]

Hi Roadmaster,

My personal favorite is www.holotropic.com. (http://www.holotropic.com.) This site is the main page for Stanislav Grof's holotropic breathwork system. Stanislav Grof was the last psychiatric researcher in the US who was legally permitted to administer LSD to human patients. He has written several books- the earlier ones focused on the LSD research, such as The Human Encounter with Death and LSD Psychotherapy, and later, he developed the implications of his LSD research in books such as Beyond the Brain and the Adventure of Self-Discovery (the first book in which the Holotropic Breathwork system was featured). I'm hoping to attend a workshop he is giving in Virginia next month.

I think that it is a byproduct of the materialistic nature of our culture that nonordinary states of consciousness are tied so strongly to chemical substances, and, consequently, both are seen as having no value. My belief is that the most accurate way to view a psychoactive drug is that it does not determine where you go, it is how you get there. That said, I have never had non-drug-related experiences to compare with drug-related experiences.

Stephen

[roadmaster]

Hey Stephen,

To comment on the last line of your post: I wish I could say that I have achieved states of mind that are equivelant to those experienced with chemical catalysts. But that is just what they are-catalysts. I do believe that the type of mindstate experienced during a chemical session can be attained by other methods. I have read accounts written by masters of Zen meditation(those of which I will post at a later date)that read just like trip reports albiet the anxiety and possible panic that can occur due to lack of preparation.

Something that appeals to us as Westerners(which I trust you are),I believe, is the desire and unfortunate expectation of instant gratification. Non-chemical methods take a tremendous amount of time to preform. Perhaps a lifetime. The thing with blotter paper, gel capsules etc...is that the effects are felt, in relation to the other methods, instantaneously. And the blooming notion of "Shit! 'skickin' in! " provides an extra push towards the unknown.

If I remember correctly, Daniel has written in his current book on this topic(or has touched upon it, think its time to lay off the ganja). I plan on combing it sometime again. But if you have a fleeting moment Daniel, I would love to hear what you think.

[daniel]

I think there are some tremendous ways of accessing non-ordinary states that can create effects as amazing as any psychedelic. What I have been studying and thinking about in the last few years is how to transform one's dream life to achieve "continuity of consciousness" - lucid dreams, "Clear light dreams," and so on. THis is a real discipline. Some useful books:

The Hermetic Tradition by Julius Evola
Tibetan Dream Yoga (there are a few books by Tibetan lamas that are great - can't remember the author name)
Conscious Dreaming by Robert Moss
The Art of Dreaming by Castaneda

Evola argues that the goal of alchemy is learning to reach and substantiate yourself in progressively higher states of consciousness until you are able to use your sleep time to explore the spiritual realms. Between waking and dream, there is a doorway that can be taken to the spirit worlds - the dream is in fact a mask that comes down like a curtain to cut off your access. This is the "separation" alchemy talks about - and achieving it is "a labor of Hercules."

Tibetan Dream Yoga pursues the same goal. The lamas say, "If you can't even remain conscious while you sleep, how are you going to stay conscious when you are dead?" There are meditation systems focusing on different chakra points throughout the night. I tried this for a while and it was definitely working but waking up 4 times a night to write down progressively longer dreams was too much for me.

Castaneda's Art of Dreaming is another system working toward the same goal.

Having begun in this path, I have had and continue to have absolutely amazing experiences without any substances. Mastering the dream world would be a lifetime's work.

I have also heard amazing stories about Grof's breathwork but it doesn't work for everyone, similarly isolation tanks and of course the slower and safer path of meditation. In esoteric traditions, there is a point where the disciple is put into total darkness for several weeks at least, until he or she starts projecting into visionary states.

[michael heany]

Actually I tried mushrooms for the first time this weekend, with a friend who informed me afterwards that we did not take enough because we didn't hallucinate. It was at an event called Playa del Fuego, in Delaware, sort of a miny Burning Man. Anyways, it was a good experience, seeing new details in fire, watching the fire dancers spin their balls of fire, seeing the other force (centripital as opposed to centrifigal [sic]?) pull at them. It was good to be able to go up and talk to people. Seeing new aspects of my friend's person by just looking at him. Next time I'll have to take more to get those hallucinations.

Next day, my friend was sitting there reading Daniel's book, read a passage to some girl who stopped by, and she said "Oh yeah, that guy [Shulgin?] my boyfriend just met him". We ran into the boyfriend, a psychiatrist who's looking into studying psychedelics, he had just come back from some conference where he met the guy
who invented Ecstasy.

[daniel]

Shitakes can have a strong effect - must be why they are beloved of cooks around the world.

Shulgin is an amazing figure. Very wise and grounded despite years of explorations. You can email him questions at the site www.alchemind.org. (http://www.alchemind.org.)

[roadmaster]

Are shitake mushrooms pshychoactive? Or did you just use the term as slang?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by roadmaster:

Something that appeals to us as Westerners(which I trust you are),I believe, is the desire and unfortunate expectation of instant gratification. Non-chemical methods take a tremendous amount of time to preform. Perhaps a lifetime. The thing with blotter paper, gel capsules etc...is that the effects are felt, in relation to the other methods, instantaneously. And the blooming notion of "Shit! 'skickin' in! " provides an extra push towards the unknown.

If I remember correctly, Daniel has written in his current book on this topic(or has touched upon it, think its time to lay off the ganja). I plan on combing it sometime again. But if you have a fleeting moment Daniel, I would love to hear what you think.Hey roadmaster,

I am a Westerner, and I agree with your point about the fascination with instant gratification in our culture which intensifies day by day.

A sideline to this though is that, as far as I know, everywhere that a psychoactive plant or fungi grows naturally, it is (or was) used by the indigenous populations in sacramental/shamanistic rituals. Furthermore, I believe that those cultures which developed non-drug means of accessing nonordinary states were those in which psychoactives were not available. So I don't think that we are alone in trying to find the easy way.

I'm only to Chapter 7 in Daniel's book so I'm still learning his views.

Stephen

[daniel]

part of our painful current maturation process is learning that "instant gratification" is not ultimately gratifying. To achieve deeper satisfaction or deeper wisdom requires journeying a long distance inside yourself. For some people psychedelics are part of that journey, but they are not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is the permanent transformation of your own vision and way of life.

[jennygreentooth]

dont worry, michael. many people- myself included- find pot to be the least "enjoyable", "pleasant", or "enlightening" of all entheogens.

:confused:

To find catalysts for your growth follow where your intuition leads you. Psilocybin was also my 2nd psychoactive substance i experimented with. I kept dosage at a minimum (i feel now that was a positive decision) a few x's, and made sure Set/ Setting felt "right". i found fungi to be an incredibly powerful tool for self-discovery and awareness. they did not give me any unpleasantness like THC.

tongue.gif

as time went by, i tried other means of attaining 'altered states of consciousness'... none of them gave me that uneasiness like marijuana.

i've learned to appreciate it for what it IS & learned ways to improve the journey, so to speak. one of these, ironically, is to take a Xanax (or one of its pharmaceutical relatives) about 15 minutes before smoking. this helps with my anxiety or 'weirdness'. of course, i am not recommending this to anyone else, esp. if they do not have a prescription for benzodiazepines. i am just sharing the idea = Something initially unpleasant may be altered if the whole state of mind is taken into consideration or changed.

Empathogens, i.e. MDMA, also gave me a greater sense of confidence in myself to explore dimensions i had previously thought too dark, difficult, or frightening. Many were non-chemical means, such as transpersonal therapy= which i now feel has been the Most Practical Self-Discovery Tool i've encountered! smile.gif smile.gif

the only good peice of advice i could give you from my own path of insight is start out extremely cautious... and ALWAYS listen to your intuition. :D

[Morninggloryseed]

Originally posted by michael heany:
"Oh yeah, that guy [Shulgin?] my boyfriend just met him"...he met the guy
who invented Ecstasy.Although Shulgin is known as the father of MDMA, he did not invent it. It was developed in germany in the early 1900's. Dr. Shulgin 'rediscoved' it though in the 1970's and found it to be a profound and benificial entheogen for psychotherapy.

Although I don't recommend drugs to people, mescaline (in the form of the easily obtainable San Pedro cactus (Trichocereus pachanoi) is a powerful but gentle teacher. This phenethylamine is the best psychedelic in my books.

[ October 22, 2002, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Morninggloryseed ]

[s a m]

Funny you mentioned Shulgin, it is well documented in TIHKAL that neither he nor anne find much worth in Marijuana. Also, they deal extensively with 'time-dilation' under the influence (at one point nearly getting the second hand of a wall clock to stop using only the power of their minds) and tend to describe the high as forced, somehow oppressive.

I've used ganja for about 6 years and occasionally had some negative experiences - normally on too high a dose, or after a long break... It certainly catalyzed some useful thought in my head when I was about 16 (still does if I am sensible and do not over use) I am very greatful to ganja & have a lot of respect for it - my original psychedelic initiator, and long time friend & comforter...

Mushrooms were next for me, they come highly recommended to the curious cat.

What should you not do?

Well, that's entirely up to you.

However, may I suggest giving Datura a wide berth!

[daniel]

Sacramental use of "Santa Maria" can be very powerful.

Occasionally pot is almost as hallucinogenic for me as anything else - usually within months after I have tried DMT or ayahuasca.

What happened to you on datura?

[s a m]

Hi daniel, truly enjoyed your book - a great journey & you kept a good head (what with having it 'broken open' n'all ;) no brains spilled!!!

Santa Maria, yes, She showed me Shiva on my first aya journey!!! (took a puff & the ringleader of my retinal circus turned from psychedelic blob to human-like form gracefully waving arms up & down leaving traces which solidified into six arms, an incredible moment for me, the vision was accompanied by emotional ecstacy, pure Love) Very powerful in conjunction with DMT!!! I believe I will always be a user - tho I plan to use it much less frequently & therefore to greater effect.

I say to 'stay away from datura' more from feeling & researching than from actually experiencing - just having a little joke at the expense of the 'Dark Goddess', such a bad rep!!!

I did carry around a pouch of the seeds last Summer (hence 'feeling' datura). Everytime they were in my bag a strange evening would be had - quite often people would look at me funny and/or missunderstand what I was saying (more than is usual even for a strange looking stoner ;) some of those evenings were almost bad dream-like in their weirdness, there were some very stange moments when my pupils would almost fully dilate, giving me an alien look (I watched this happen to others too, may just have been the dim light in some places, bars & such, always seemed significant tho - I relate fully black eyes to people tripping on datura - aswell as to those whose souls are not under their own control - like tony blair ;)

Also, acts of giving & taking were often imbued with a sinister significance (soul transactions) - I recall being asked for a ciggarette in a bar & knowing I was about to give a little death away, I was thinking this when the ciggy askers friend jumped in and jokingly (tho with a bit of eye fear) said something about not taking gifts from people like me, the strange thing was - he didn't!!!

I was very stoned back then, and even the weed seemed infused with the presence of datura, smoking ganja was pretty dark for me - I was calling her Kali for a start!!! A quality of my stoniness whilst around datura was a sense of the dead pervading my environment, in the smoke, the walls, the air, my friends... we actually started getting raps on the walls during one smoking session.

I should say that by the end of the summer my constant attention to metaphysical matters, magick & kabbalah, mixed with mushrooms & mescaline cactus, had made me a stranger to my family & friends - I was feared schizophrenic & taken home to get it together, and I did just that - I recognised that I'd been over the top (outside the perimeter ;) and had to come back down to earth, my explorations are only just beginning again - I am certainly psychically stronger for the slightly scary experience of swimming in the saliva of the mouth of madness, gradually being digested...

Ultimately, tho people helped in calling me back, I got myself out the mouth before the jabbering jaws stopped talking nonsense and began to chew!!! I did this the same way I dove in, only this time I focused on accepting 'their reality' rather than creating my own.

Now I have to balance the two Arts, an Art in itself!!!

So, although I was mad - I was also sensitive, and I felt datura enough to know that she had to do with darkness, death, delusion & control... I can get all that from ayahuasca on a much more managable level, aya will help me integrate the shadow - datura would force me to become it.

Sorry for rambling, but thanks for the opportunity to do so!

Peace.

[s a m]

Once, whilst away on a buddhist (vipassana) retreat, I broke the 'no intoxicants' rule - on the sixth night of a ten day course - I snuck out to the gardens with some marijuana wrapped in paper towel (desperate measures) and smoked it, the stars were bright & I sung to them/prayed to the moon... When I retired to bed I was in the midst of quite a colourful trip, those deep plasma purples & scarlets tinged with black lit yellow/greens... it seems the vocalisations (my first since starting the course, silence being a general rule) had really got me buzzing... Laying down in bed I had a series of visions not at all unlike the dream-images of a mild ayahuasca experience (I had drunk at the start of the month - it was now mid-month) they began to form when I realised how much my mind had quieted with the regular meditation, my thoughts were single track, very centered - they began to form images: I saw the DNA double helix spinning around itself before the ends met in two snake heads kissing each other, I saw a man with a gun for a dick fucking a women with cannons for tits, I saw an old man smile and his teeth & the gaps between became piano keys & they played a tune 'wakey wakey' to which both the blacks & whites danced...

This kind of experience sound familiar?

I would be intereted to hear your experiences with/thoughts on the heightened herb daniel, if you find the time.

[daniel]

as for datura, clearly it has important uses also: various Indian tribes used it as the essential recipe for tribal initiation. We have to learn to surf the dark as well as the light.

marijuana: Some very strange experiences, DMT-like hyperdimensionality -- couldn't really believe it while it was happening, clownlike spirits. Another time: Saw my unfocused and low-vibration thoughts literally turning into laughing goblins and demons. I think getting control of one's thoughts is the key - Steiner talks about reaching a point where you will not allow a thought to enter if it is not a good or interesting one.

[s a m]

You are right about datura - I reckon the only way I would actually take it would be in a natural/tribal context: as an initiation-type experience in a natural setting with a decent guardian/guide... I am sure a lot would be learnt from datura, not necessarily easily - people I spoke to about it (users) say the effects (the psychic more than the physical) are long lasting, so I would want to set apart a decent length of time in which to attempt integration.

The darkside must be dealt with aye - but it would be nice to do so without delusion & a dry mouth (tho I'm sure it all adds to the effect ;) ... I find going out into nature alone (maybe with some plant friends) & spending the night is a good enough way to tackle irrational fears/bring the shadow to the surface.

I really like Steiner btw, I've read 'knowledge of higher worlds' a couple of times - and 'Rosicrucian Wisdom' ... The level of thought control he talks about is truly something to aspire to.

I'd like to fish out a decent auto(or just plain)biography soon.

[willoweyes]

I am interested in local plants and their uses by Native Americans. This knowledge has been lost in many cases. I have read intriguing historical reports of "the black draught of the Seminoles" used for initiation ceremonies; a central component reported to be the yaupon holly. As this plant is reported to cause explosive vomiting unless prepared correctly, I am hesitant to experiment without some expert imput. Any thoughts\rumors\hints\visions or dreams out there?

[Z]

I've always found the discontinuity of time under the influence of marijuana interesting, even from a young age. I remember being 16-17 years old and ranting on in my friends room about "time fragmentation" - all of us seemed to experience this...

Along with pot oft comes paranoia and discomfort. On the other hand, provided the proper set and setting, it can be absolutely great. I was lucky enough to be part of a group of friends who would sit around and meditate (or at least try) while high. Even when I'm not in the greatest set & setting, however, I almost always get vivid closed eye visuals. So, yes, now that I'm done ranting about that, it's different for everyone.

I must say however, even though I often get paranoid on marijuana, I've had paranoid highs and great trips within days of each other. I remember specifically being stoned & freaked out & worrying that my trip coming up that weekend would be unpleasant, but it ended up turning out great.

Oh, and I'd generally advise against taking Xanax or another benzo to calm down unless you're really freaking out: although extremely pleasant, they tend to make people forget things. Furthermore, sometimes the fact that the trip/high may be unpleasant may ultimately add to it.

(Sorry if this post is delayed and it's all been said/implied)

[greatdayforup]

As Datura has been mentioned, I thought I'd share my experience.
I tried Datura in Greece, in 1997. I was hanging with a band in Katerini (nr Mt. Olympus) and smoking too much of the extremely strong local grass. We were discussing where we could get hold of Acid (v.difficult) and eventually, some bright spark pointed out that Datura grew locally. I'd never heard of the stuff.
We were advised to dry the seeds and eat no more than 200 each. I ate about 400, my friend Vageli ate about 800. we smoked a few for the hell of it.
Nothing happened for a while, so we went to my flat for a smoke.
After a while, I still felt nothing but a bit stoned. I went from my room to the lounge via the balcony, scaring the bejesus out of Vageli. His Datura was kicking in. After this, things got a bit crazy.
I remember feeling out of control for a while - I think we drank some ouzo and attempted to skin up, but we were out of it.
Spatial awareness was seriously altered. this made having a piss very difficult. I'm sure there was an anaesthetic effect also.
Vageli was taken home by Demis, who'd joined us. I remember lying in bed... there was what appeared to be a black and yellow sign on the wall with moving stripes. The least impressive hallucination I've ever had.
The strangest experience was when I tried to take a drink of water. I reached for my glass and my hand appeared to go right through it - whatever I attempted, I couldn't even touch it: I felt like a ghost. This was very disturbing.
The next morning, I awoke feeling reasonably normal. I got my books together and headed for work at the english school. The world seemed odd - different...school was locked. I rang my girlfriend in Paris, who couldn't understand why I was calling so early. After a fractured conversation, I remembered I had left my job the day before.
That afternoon, I met Vageli in his bar. He had gone nearly blind. He'd crawled home. His eyesight returned after about 3 days. I've suffered mental health problems since that time - including a suicide attempt and a period in hospital.
However, although the lesson that Datura taught me was very tough, I am beginning to appreciate it more - I feel that Datura 'found' me, and showed me a very dark reality - like a complete opposite to that I experience on LSD or Mushrooms, with regular reality as a middle ground.

[Roach Clip]

When we speak of unpleasant reactions to these substances, it seems like one's preparation, not the substance itself is at issue. By preparation I mean the mental state, anticipated and desired effects, and subsequent ability to handle whatever comes up. It's been said countless times but bears repeating: one is just asking for a bad experience when one takes something for the wrong reasons or without doing research.

That being said, even when one thinks he's fully prepared, he may not be. My darkest experience came from amanita muscaria (http://www.emptylife.com/amanita.html). I read everything I could on the history and effects, but I didn't really READ anything. All the research I did was clouded by my own silly mushroom quest. My life experience up to that point hadn't prepared me to be as serious and objective in my reading as I should've been. I should've heeded all the unpleasant reports, but I tended to focus so closely on the positives that when the bad physical aspects of my batch manifested themselves (chills, profuse sweating and salivation specifically), they freaked me out.

A hardcore wig out would seem unavoidable for those of us creeping along the poison path. How can one adequately prepare oneself to be ripped from his conscious mind and shown for a few minutes or hours the fabric of the universe itself? It's a learning experience. You learn not to blame the substance (it's just being itself after all) for scaring you out of your shit, and take responsibility for how and when you ingest.

[ November 24, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Roach Clip ]

[Halfglass]

Roach Clip: Thanks for that report (yet another sigting of mushroom people on amanitas, amazing). Sounds like a long night there. Those mushroom people, do you think you were experiencing your brain--the compartments being parts of you? Or did you get an impression that they were foreign?

[ November 25, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Roach Clip]

Halfglass, thanks for reading my words. It was a long time ago and I was a different person then. As time has gone on, they've become a hazy memory. I'll try to illuminate them as best I can. I hope I can do more than just repeat what I wrote on the site...but it's tough...that is what I use to remember...

They were definitely foreign. They knew me very well but I was just meeting them. They knew what they were doing. They had a single goal of helping me feel comfortable in my world. They knew me perhaps better than I knew myself at the time. They weren't experiencing me so much as I was experiencing them. They were like gifts from the mushroom world, perhaps sent to show me the beneficial side of their existence in fungal space.

The compartments refer to parts of me (both physical and psychic) that each entity had mastered. They had already KNOWN their respective compartments and were hard at work making them right. They weren't working on their compartments from within me. They were outside of me, yet I felt no fear. I knew their work was in my best interest.

Then there were smaller mushroom beings running around the room happily who weren't working. They were like children, just happy to be in my room. And when I say "my room". I literally mean my room. Not just in my head. Of course, they all vanished when I opened my eyes.

It all sounds like the classic close-encounters alien abduction scenario, except without any sinister intent on their part. It could be that at the time, such stereotypical space alien mythology was about as spiritual as my awareness of otherness had been.

[ November 28, 2003, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Roach Clip ]