tripping and healing

[daniel]

In all of the extraordinarily elaborate discussions of 'k' versus 'dxm versus lsd', something essential seems to be completely missing.

One might try to go beyond the self-centered experience of a "trip" and ask: Beyond the inner experience, what does intensive use of this substance mean for a human being or a community?

I realize that one way that I judge "drugs" these days is not based on the effect, but how people look and act during and after using them. For this reason, I do not like nitrous oxide - people tend to become monotonous cartoon fiends when they get into nitrous. I do not like ketamine - it turns trippers into neutralized couch potatoes. I don't know about DXM, but my guess is it is similar.

That is during the trip. The aftereffect of these substances seems to be a slightly too lugubrious obsession with the experience. Recounting all the entities met, etc.

While ayahuasca also neutralizes people (except in the religions where they are made to sing and dance all night), I like the energetic effect it has on them both during and after. They become such beautifully sensitive little plants, lying in their little pots. And ayahuasca -- like psilocybin, peyote, iboga, San Pedro, Santa Maria -- can also be used for shamanic purposes, for vision-questiong, and healing above all. The plants "speak" to the shamans and teach them how to sing and raise up the energy of the group. I have collected many stories of healing "miracles" occuring through peyote and ayahuasca and even salvia.

I don't get any sense that nitrous, ketamine, or DXM have any utility as a healing modality. They seem to be particularly modern-day (Kali Yuga) substances, geared to help us get more and more lost, and more and more focused on our own internal egocentric little fantasias. That is not to say the doorways should not be opened. I am just saying I don't really see anything good coming through them.

It may be the case that in the future we will find real uses for them as we evolve back toward a reintegrated post-modern shamanism. Or it may be that they will someday be seen as similar to Olestra or Malathion - errors based on a limited and flawed scientific paradigm.

[PeoplesMind]

In all of the extraordinarily elaborate discussions of 'k' versus 'dxm versus lsd', something essential seems to be completely missing.

One might try to go beyond the self-centered experience of a "trip" and ask: Beyond the inner experience, what does intensive use of this substance mean for a human being or a community? I have often thought about this concept. What benifit, if any, does my actions of ingesting substances have upon humanity as a whole? I have found, in my studies, that most history books treat history as the accomplishments of human beings individually. According to this view, the movers and shakers in history and the Napoleons, the Hitlers, Washingtons, and the Lenins. =) The opposite view, though less popular, would be that of history follows a path, which no indvidual can change. Mind you, this isnt pre-destination but rather people are purely products of thier historical conditions. There have been situations where two people made the same discovery at the same time without knowing each other, were the historical conditions correct for it? Perhaps.

In my personal opinion, there has to be a certain level of concisoiuness and orginization among a group of people to transform people socially and otherwise. In this scenario, the role of individuals can be decisive at certain key moments but only if they are a link in a chain of other factors. =)

Now if we apply these prefaces to your question, then in my humble opinion, we find that the role of an individual in a certain moment can be curcial in the role of history as a whole. We also postulate that human beings are a collection of their expierences and memories. Using those two factors we can infer that the use of drugs in society can either be a means or a catalyst.

Means : The drugs i take shape who i am, and therefore when i made decisions and impact humanity (at any level), i am making a decision which is partially a product of the drug.

Catalyst : Drugs impact who i am by creating expierences which cause change within me. This change has caused me to realize certain things exist and their existance should not be so (ie, crime, war, poverty, ect.), therefore my expierences have collectivly caused me to invoke change, and take action.

One thing is for sure, IMO, : We all exist for each other.

I realize that one way that I judge "drugs" these days is not based on the effect, but how people look and act during and after using them. For this reason, I do not like nitrous oxide - people tend to become monotonous cartoon fiends when they get into nitrous. I do not like ketamine - it turns trippers into neutralized couch potatoes. I don't know about DXM, but my guess is it is similar. IMO, the real impact of drugs is what they do to you as a person, and how they impact your total attitude of life.

Intresting, I have found that my drug use is judged mainly by a collection of previous data/research, the expierence itself, and my reflections of my expierences.

My previous data is what first shapes my expierences.

Using an example, aprox. 2-3 Months ago i had my first DOB expierence. The research i did on the subject was my first catalyst. The "input" i was getting from my reading up on the subject both excited me and intrigued me at the same time. I was getting sensory input to prepare me for the expierence (if there is such a thing, which i doubt one can be fully 'prepared' for any drug). Next, the expierence itself. On my DOB expierence i found that the dose i choose was very psychoactive and visual. I activated a sixth sense (which i have titled a "dolitic" sensory), and analyzed many layers of society. I had a "comic book" trip, where i saw everything intrepreted in my head as a comic strip. I could literally see the layers of comics in society. Being able to zoom in from the big picture and the little picture all togother. These expierences (within and of itself). The final thing which impacted me within this trip was the post-trip expierence. Once the expierence is complete i find that the pre-trip research has less an impact. After the expierence is over, i feel very strongly that one must sit down and examine the expierence over and over. Take notes, perhaps write a trip report (helps organize thoughts). With my DOB expierence, i decided to research into any docuemnts i could find about people being comic books, and how society is reflected within this. I found DOB to be a grand expierence with multiple layers of perception being highlighted. Anyway, seeing how society expects us to be able to quantatate things, i would say that the expierence is abotu : 10% pre-trip research, 45% expierence, and 45% post-trip reflections/research.

As for the DXM question, I highly disagree, though I will not go into detail at this point. I think the phrase "to each, his own" fits well in this moment (though ;) i find dxm to be a very strong catalyst/force in life)

That is during the trip. The aftereffect of these substances seems to be a slightly too lugubrious obsession with the experience. Recounting all the entities met, etc. I agree. THe entities met are very important. I find i meet more elves with 5-MeO-DMT than i do with n,n-DMT. I also find that entites exist on a number of levels with other substance, but like Magnus said in another post, These are not to be taken literally. The expierence itself is enjoyable and needed for the cumlative effect, but the actual discource between the entity(ies) is often needed to be reflected upon for full effect. I have met entities on different things, from DMT, to DXM, to Absinthe (different 'type' of beings)... All these entities exist as different types of beings, soem on the physical level, some on the philosophical level, and some even exist on the mental level (ie diphenhydramine).

While ayahuasca also neutralizes people (except in the religions where they are made to sing and dance all night), I like the energetic effect it has on them both during and after. They become such beautifully sensitive little plants, lying in their little pots. And ayahuasca -- like psilocybin, peyote, iboga, San Pedro, Santa Maria -- can also be used for shamanic purposes, for vision-questiong, and healing above all. The plants "speak" to the shamans and teach them how to sing and raise up the energy of the group. I have collected many stories of healing "miracles" occuring through peyote and ayahuasca and even salvia. I doubt you can disagree that "miracles" occur on a number of differnt substances. I have to wonder about the term "miracle" and how you would define it, but strange things happen on different levels and the most unlikly thing of them all would be the fact that these subtances, these beauties we have been consuiming for years and years, are all just chemicals. Chemicals, little atoms which exist for the purpose of helping, steering, and driving us through the chaos of the universe. Take the autistic for example. I have often wondered how beautiful that expierence must be to be autisitic. To look at one object and not being able to respond to stimulus because your brain does not filter out things, but rather takes in ALL the information! What a beauty that would be, to see something for it's perfection, it's very detail!

This brings me to my conclusion, Life itself is the main miracle we should be trying to understand.

I don't get any sense that nitrous, ketamine, or DXM have any utility as a healing modality. They seem to be particularly modern-day (Kali Yuga) substances, geared to help us get more and more lost, and more and more focused on our own internal egocentric little fantasias. That is not to say the doorways should not be opened. I am just saying I don't really see anything good coming through them.Oh Daniel! How it woes and vexs me to read that paragraph. Perhaps you should read up on DXM, DXM is a POWERFUL tool, if used correctly. I would LOVE to give some DXM to a wide-variety of thinkers and belivers and see how they respond! The substance itself takes much guidance to actually "steer" the trip, but the process is well worth it. Medidtation is EXTREMELY enhanced.

Just because it was created synthitically should NEVER deter you from any substance. LSD, PRIME example. DXM is NOT aimed at yourself, and if your confused on it, you have not the ability/expierence to control the powerful expierence.

Nothing Good from them?!?!?!? I would say my collective expierences of DXM has guided me more than any other substance. I'm sure many MANY others would concur with that. I've had DXM expierences which have changed me/my views as a person more than ~750ug LSD trips.

It may be the case that in the future we will find real uses for them as we evolve back toward a reintegrated post-modern shamanism. Or it may be that they will someday be seen as similar to Olestra or Malathion - errors based on a limited and flawed scientific paradigm."real uses"? That is NOW! You tell me how Iboga is any more "profound" or "real" than DXM?

Thank you Daniel, your posts are always appreciated.

peace,
Nitin

[daniel]

peoplesmind: "IMO, the real impact of drugs is what they do to you as a person, and how they impact your total attitude of life."

I suspect that you are still not understanding what I am saying exactly.

We live in a highly atomized and individuated society. We prioritize and prize the individual experience, whether it is a DXM entity, an orgasm with a Playboy Bunny or the skill of a "genius artist" like Pablo Picasso.

The fact of the matter is, this obsession with the individual ego and its existential experience is a kind of disease - or a symptom of our dis-ease, or an example of the "design flaw" that runs through Western society.

Part of healing this mess we are in is going to be evolving back from an "I" focus to a "we" focus. The Australian Aboriginals for instance (and I really urge people to read the amazing book Voices of the First Day by Robert Lawlor), structure their society so monstrous egos do not erupt - anyone who gets too big for themself or too outside of the group is exiled, refused sex, etc. When anthropologists collaborated with Aboriginals on a film, the Aboriginals asked that the entire tribe be shown in each shot (this required a wide-angle lens). They wanted no individual close-ups.

Similarly, when you work with the Native American Church or Santo Daime, you have to give up your egocentric desire to focus on your own inner visionary experience. You give your energy to the group, to help "raise the vibration." If you space out during the NAC rather than sitting very straight and staring at the fire or praying or singing, you will be reprimanded. You may have also read about how the Mazatecs work with salvia in my book.

As for entities, I know they are fascinating, but I agree that simultaneously it is true what the Dzogchen masters say: In reality "there are no entities." They may have a similar relative-reality to us, but like us they are only dream-entities living in a dream-world.

If we want to work towards our own liberation from conditioning - our own enlightenment - we need to be careful of not getting caught in the glamour of any visionary state. I think the shamanic modality of using visionary medicines for communal healing is much more profound and satisfying than the individual alone having his trip -- but of course, the individual alone having his trip is already a huge step up from the individual alone watching his football game on TV.

[PeoplesMind]

peoplesmind: "IMO, the real impact of drugs is what they do to you as a person, and how they impact your total attitude of life."

I suspect that you are still not understanding what I am saying exactly.Clarification is always appreciated.

We live in a highly atomized and individuated society. We prioritize and prize the individual experience, whether it is a DXM entity, an orgasm with a Playboy Bunny or the skill of a "genius artist" like Pablo Picasso.Indeed we do.

The fact of the matter is, this obsession with the individual ego and its existential experience is a kind of disease - or a symptom of our dis-ease, or an example of the "design flaw" that runs through Western society.How intresting. I feel quite the opposite. Ah, the good ol' IVGP Paradox. We as humans must base decisions on some level of abstraction. Sometimes these levels of abstraction are smaller. We can decipher the best course of action for elementary particles, genes, and individual organisms to groups, ecosystems, planets and universes! IMO, This is our greatest gift, and our greatest item as indvidual beings in a collective of beings. We can be 'selfish' in our intrests all the way to viewing the group's position all the time. Often a certain selfishness has helped human beings, or harmed them. I'm sure you've read John Bryant's works about IVGP. Though i don't agree on most points, i must point out the actions of individuals for the individual have been about as helpful to the group as the actions of the indivdiual for the group, because of "do-gooders", or those who try and do good for the group but fail and rather inflict more harm than good.

Part of healing this mess we are in is going to be evolving back from an "I" focus to a "we" focus. The Australian Aboriginals for instance (and I really urge people to read the amazing book Voices of the First Day by Robert Lawlor), structure their society so monstrous egos do not erupt - anyone who gets too big for themself or too outside of the group is exiled, refused sex, etc. When anthropologists collaborated with Aboriginals on a film, the Aboriginals asked that the entire tribe be shown in each shot (this required a wide-angle lens). They wanted no individual close-ups.Intresting, I'll have to look into that book. I find (yes me, not the group) that the group does not agree on many points. Though a "we" focus of humanity is appealing in some aspects, the use of psychoactives contradicts it for a large extent. By using Psychoactives you are focusing on the "me" (the individual), whereas the entire group would be a collective of "i"s anyway, so drugs impact huamns in this manner. We are a society based on a group, the collective-self. But what do you think will happen in 2012? We develop telekensis? a hive mind? How do we, as a people, need to become more of a group rahter than a collection of individuals? Sounds like communism, TRAITOR! (j/k sorry couldn't help it...)

Similarly, when you work with the Native American Church or Santo Daime, you have to give up your egocentric desire to focus on your own inner visionary experience. You give your energy to the group, to help "raise the vibration." If you space out during the NAC rather than sitting very straight and staring at the fire or praying or singing, you will be reprimanded. You may have also read about how the Mazatecs work with salvia in my book.Ah, so what would be working for the greater good be as far as humanity is concerned? The "brotherhood" of the proletariate? THe brotherhood of mankind? the brother/sister-hood of humanity? *i dont have a shameless plug*

As for entities, I know they are fascinating, but I agree that simultaneously it is true what the Dzogchen masters say: In reality "there are no entities." They may have a similar relative-reality to us, but like us they are only dream-entities living in a dream-world.Perhaps. I find myself more "real" in the sense of proving existance than any of these entites. Perhaps there are other planes of existance where they reside and see us in their hallucinogenic expierences? But on the same level, perhaps "God" will walk around a corner one day and tell you your life was a joke made for his amusment and everything was planned. You can not prove these are real beings on another plane/level, but on the same note you can not prove we exist either. This paradox is quite marvelous, because the simple fact that things "are" is wonderful.

If we want to work towards our own liberation from conditioning - our own enlightenment - we need to be careful of not getting caught in the glamour of any visionary state. I think the shamanic modality of using visionary medicines for communal healing is much more profound and satisfying than the individual alone having his trip -- but of course, the individual alone having his trip is already a huge step up from the individual alone watching his football game on TV.We will never break the reigns of our conditioning, the best which will happen is a paradigm shift (and that only when we receive a curcial peice of data which breaks down the system of our thought whereas it will reconstruct itself accordingly)

peace,
Nitin

[daniel]

From your comments above, I think you might want to read more deeply into Buddhism. We can, in fact, escape our conditioning - but first we have to become continuous witnesses of it.

Burning Man demonstrates, "as the individual becomes more individuated, the collective can become more truly collective." That is a direction for the future.

Working for the "brotherhood" of humanity is not a bad thing. I think it is possible to work for the good of all.

[Buzz]

Right on, Daniel!

[Halfglass]

Daniel hey. One thing I can tell you about DXM is there's NO ego involved during the "couch potato" time. It flattens the toughest ego. Fixation by the tripper afterwards, on the experience, should tell you something. What's happening at those times makes blotter seem like...well, there's no comparing. I've tried everything (except smoking DMT) and a high-dose closed-eye DXM trip is umatched. I'm not the DXM campainer, but there is a message needs tellin'--this stuff will TAKE YOU TO THE PLACE YOU WILL BE GOING WHEN YOU DIE! (For real bro.) One should think this would make headlines. (If Ronnin or someone picks up my ponderous depth of thought on the subject you can dig that then)--But really, why not give DXM a go? 700mgs, a pair of sleep shades and off to bed with you. About plant "spirits"--I don't go in for learning Indian medicine because there's no time. The Western mind is poised to witness the There, and evolution goes in leaps. We Westerns are plenty good for this frontier--maybe the best, with all that left brain built up in us. Besides, one thing I've noticed about all psychedelics is that they are all tied into the same "spirit"--visions for example, come in a sequence while the will is in abeyance. You get the feeling you're not the director of the three-D mosaic/film clips. (I can't be the only one getting these can I?) (I'm reminded of when I posted about my out-of-body experiences, and people posted after me about the "seven levels" or whatever one can find there--blah blah. I'm saying I've had OBE's happen, but it's right to "So and so in his book says this about OBEs...." There's no number to be put on "levels" man--numerous places there be, but numbering them isn't likely to be accurate.) Anyway, the reason too I think "K" isn't as good and shouldn't be put in with DXM...with "K" you keep coming down (every hour) so you start chasing the high/experience. This makes it like doing coke. With DXM, when you get to The Point, you're still going up and you break on through, and afterwards you feel satisfied that you've been given all. I can't belive DXM is in every corner store. It's the bloody DMT clowns' joking cousin, absurdly, strangely sitting next to the tampons.... In your book Daniel, you wrote of the "leprechaunien" way DMT pops up. It's so true, about all psychedelics. I never thought of it quite like that 'till I read that line. DXM is the leprechauniest!

[ September 30, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[El Eternauta]

Daniel, I agree with your point of view, and If I may add the way I use and view entheogens (in a healing way) is only if the substance gives me some key or understanding of my self, at any level whether emotionally, spiritually or as a tool for exploring my sub consciousness.
And I think some how has to do, if the substance is caring the “spirit with in it”, even more if you are able to form some type relation as in growing, collecting, preparing the substance your self, the experience is even more enhanced.
My classic example will be dmt, I have done it several times (crystal form) and I wont argue with anybody is a very interesting experience but I feel it de voided of spirit or teaching, yet the same taken in ayuasca has been a completely different experince, I felt it alive full of spirit and healing.
And so far all synthetic substances or over refined , has been the same for me, some how something is missing .
As for Dxm I have never tried it, nor did I had the inclination (just because how it is made) of trying it if was not for half glass’s posts which I respect and picked my curiosity to try it at least once, hehe
My 2 cents.

[ October 01, 2003, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: El Eternauta ]

[willoweyes]

Wow, Nitin is somthin' else. Daniel, did you realize you were dueling with a high school kid? I don't know what I can add to these high octane posts, except to ask, what the heck is DXM and how come I've never noticed it next to the tampons?

I will mention, re change and the individual--it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. In fact, it's a miracle when it happens. Maybe it's the definition of miracle, and maybe that's why tears are forced from our eyes when we witness it.

We do need to recognize that the graveyards are full of those who couldn't be replaced, and as full-fledged born and raised, western-civ-hooked individuals, it will take a miracle to change our mindset. And it does need to be changed. We as a society will not be able to survive under the cult of the individual. Like a corporation, a free-floating individual is basically an amoral, selfish entity. The advertising slogan par excellence of the 90's: "Because YOU deserve it!" The emerging sublinal advertising message of the New Millenium: "Keep the Others out!" And all are others. There is no hope for a society that buys such a dream, except the hope of a miracle.

[Anita]

And miracles are alive.......everywhere.

[Magnus_Grey]

DXM seems to cause miracles. Still fine tuning the controls.

[totaldragonslayer]

glass,

how many levels to the human skin?

a microscopic organism travelling fr cell to cell, pocket to pocket,would doubtless conclude countless millions

for the purpose of biology ...to put knowledge into PRACTICAL USE..its conventionally divided into hypothetical layers, according to each layers over riding characteristics...

conventionally,for practicle purposes, most esoteric schools do claim, as you state, there are 7 layers above and 7 layers below.

hence the masonic american flag..thou i,ll leave it to others to debate whether the most atavistic nation on earth is on the upper or bottom most rung of this ladder. :cool:

goodbye

[ October 02, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: totaldragonslayer ]

[sidecross]

"Wow, Nitin is somthin' else. Daniel, did you realize you were dueling with a high school kid?…"

Another prodigy is just that; mix it with a life's experience and then a "wow" might be warranted. Speaking as the people's mind is certainly ambitious.

[PeoplesMind]

Originally posted by sidecross:
Another prodigy is just that; mix it with a life's experience and then a "wow" might be warranted. Speaking as the people's mind is certainly ambitious.I don't think my age has anything to do with this dicussion. It's the content I'm intrested in, not my age (which i'm perfectly aware of).

As for as ambition, I don't think I'm too ambitious, and my alias is dirived from a song lyric, not a representation of my "ego" (which i don't feel i have, though a 3rd person perspective is nesseccary for a more accurate assessment).

As far as life expierence is concerned, I'm sure i have much expierence for my age, but nothing compared to some people on thse forums (I'm guessing).

peace,
Nitin

[michaelf]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by daniel:

"One might try to go beyond the self-centered experience of a "trip" and ask: Beyond the inner experience, what does intensive use of this substance mean for a human being or a community?"

Hi Daniel,

As a newly-hatched Anthropologist I am gravitating towards this very subject myself. If we look at more traditional societies where entheogen-assisted shamanism is practiced, we often conclude that these substances are put to their best use and have the maximum benefit derived from them in such cultures, rather than the west. We all of course know the various historical reasons for this (mostly 3500 years of patriarchy and pathological monotheism); from the cultural perspective it is the very important fact of cultural sanctioning of the practice of pursuing altered states of consciousness that makes all the difference (set and setting). When westerners learn to say "I learned this from a plant teacher" as matter-of-factly as an Amazonian aboriginal, without having to explain him/herself, without feeling guilty or deviant for having pursued the experience, with a clear purpose of the pursuit that does not merely involve some misguided need for shallow sensory gratification (caveat: there is nothing wrong with sensory gratification itself, when it does not become the central and/or sole activity to the exclusion of everything else), but rather involves a holistic, healing attitude, that is understood both by the individual and his/her community/society. Then I believe we will see the effects of enheogens on western society reaching their maximum potential, and possibly allowing the rate of human evolution to finally hit Warp one (Not that it has been particularly slow, given a 3.9 billion year perspective!).

About entities: Even though I find Buddhism to be perhaps the most rational and reasonable - what? its not a religion in the western sense is it? A theosophy? Well maybe a non-theistic theosophy! - anyway, that! I have a bit of a problem with some conclusions some buddhists are wont to make: yes, I agree, everything is an illusion. But what is an illusion? (Not a rhetorical question - I invite a response). If "god" (I'm using shorthand here) is all there is, could there not perhaps be some purpose to the illusions? Might not the illusions have something to say? If these entities are as unreal as we are, can they not conversly be as real as we are? If we were to ignore everything just because it is an illusion, would that not leave creation back where it started?
Just a few thoughts...

[Walkaway]

---
> In all of the extraordinarily
> elaborate discussions of 'k'
> versus 'dxm versus lsd'
---
Who was having that discussion? I certainly wasn't. The discussion I remember having was about the relative merits of dissociatives as psychedelic compounds. I prefer LSD to DXM, but I prefer DXM to psiloc(yb)in. These are my personal tastes, and others are welcome to theirs.
---
> Beyond the inner experience, what does
> intensive use of this substance mean
> for a human being or a community?
---
Intensive use of any substance is detrimental to the human being or community, in my opinion.
---
> I realize that one way that I judge
> "drugs" these days is not based on
> the effect, but how people look and
> act during and after using them.
---
How do you judge it when people roll around on the floor screaming on DMT or 5-MeO-DMT, or when people declare that they're a superhero while on LSD or mushrooms (to name but two varieties of psychedelic freak-outs with which I have experience)?
---
> For this reason, I do not like nitrous
> oxide - people tend to become
> monotonous cartoon fiends when they
> get into nitrous.
---
Nitrous on its own seems to me to be rather pointless, but it can be a useful adjunct to a good many other substances. It is too short-lasting to maintain a consistent level of consciousness, thus the 'fiending' behavior to which you refer. In combination with a psychedelic such as DXM or LSD, wonders can be worked.
---
> I do not like ketamine - it turns
> trippers into neutralized couch
> potatoes.
---
What about ravers who insufflate ketamine?
---
> I don't know about DXM, but my guess
> is it is similar.
---
I took 500 milligrams of DXM last night and went for an hour-long walk 4 hours into it. Before that I did yoga and had a long conversation with my girlfriend about the future of our relationship.
---
> That is during the trip. The aftereffect
> of these substances seems to be a
> slightly too lugubrious obsession with
> the experience. Recounting all the
> entities met, etc.
---
How many accounts of your drug experiences have you had published in various media? Didn't you write a book?
---
> While ayahuasca also neutralizes people
> (except in the religions where they are
> made to sing and dance all night)
---
Like ravers?
---
> I like the energetic effect it has on
> them both during and after.
---
I feel better for days after dosing DXM.
---
> They become such beautifully sensitive
> little plants, lying in their little
> pots. And ayahuasca -- like psilocybin,
> peyote, iboga, San Pedro, Santa Maria
> -- can also be used for shamanic
> purposes, for vision-questiong, and
> healing above all.
---
So can tobacco. You left off the most widely-used shamanic drug on the planet. For what it's worth, DXM can work beautifully for shamanic purposes.
---
> The plants "speak" to the shamans
> and teach them how to sing and
> raise up the energy of the group.
---
Group DXM trips can be a beautiful thing. Truly.
---
> I have collected many stories of
> healing "miracles" occuring through
> peyote and ayahuasca and even salvia.
---
I have collected accounts of various shamanic capabilities being accessed through DXM use.
---
> I don't get any sense that nitrous,
> ketamine, or DXM have any utility
> as a healing modality.
---
They're used as therapeutic drugs in the West, whereas peyote, ayahuasca, and iboga are not. I thank an improved relationship with my father prior to his suicide in part to realizations catalyzed by my DXM use.
---
> They seem to be particularly modern-day
> (Kali Yuga) substances, geared to help
> us get more and more lost, and more
> and more focused on our own internal
> egocentric little fantasias.
---
They can be used for that, as can any other psychedelics. If they can be used more successfully to that end by more people than other psychedelics, that is because their utility as metaprogramming tools is proportionately higher. For myself, I find that they help me become a better person if I use them wisely. A hammer can be used to drive in a nail or shatter a skull - it is all in the intent of the person wielding the tool. Of course, there are uses to which a hammer is unsuited.
---
> That is not to say the doorways should
> not be opened. I am just saying I don't
> really see anything good coming through
> them.
---
I do.
---
> It may be the case that in the future
> we will find real uses for them as we
> evolve back toward a reintegrated
> post-modern shamanism.
---
Funny, I practice that now.
---
> Or it may be that they will someday
> be seen as similar to Olestra or
> Malathion - errors based on a
> limited and flawed scientific paradigm.
---
Nah.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[Proteus]

> That is during the trip. The aftereffect
> of these substances seems to be a
> slightly too lugubrious obsession with
> the experience. Recounting all the
> entities met, etc.
---
How many accounts of your drug experiences have you had published in various media? Didn't you write a book?
---
> While ayahuasca also neutralizes people
> (except in the religions where they are
> made to sing and dance all night)
---
Like ravers?
Enough already! The above-quoted and recent tendency on this discussion board to cut & paste single lines from other people's extended posts & then gain-say them with snippy one-liners is getting really, really old.

If you've got something to say--either from your reading or your lived experience--then say it. But do so in a way that we can see the full context of your thinking and the point you're making. If you don't have an argument to make or an experience or an insight to share, please spare the rest of us the tedium of wading through line-after-line of carets and dashes and all the Don Rickles-esque wisecracks. It's not funny' it's not leading to a deeper understanding of the subject at hand' and it's just not interesting.

The primary reason i carve one evening a week out of a jam-packed life to read what gets said here is that--nearly always--the posts are well-informed, well-reasoned, full of links and quotes from all kinds of sources i'm unfamiliar with, and carefully and respectfully articulated. That's singular among on-line communities--and worth preserving.

Well, it's official. My first rant on this list. 'Nuff said (and some).

----
What i'd rather be talking about are the several interesting questions raised on this thread, particularly Daniel's suggestion (and not the first time he's made it) that we consider the question: Who benefits from taking psychedelics & isn't there something more important to be thinking about than the light-show behind our eyes? (Bad paraphrase i know.)

This thread seems to reveal a couple of distinct "camps" in our on-line community. There are those who seem to be functioning in the tradition of Terrence McKenna--psychonauts whose focus is on what entheogens teach us about the big ontological questions: e.g. WHAT are we? What is the nature of the mind? Is/are there an Other (or others) and what is our relationship to them? etc., etc. And there are those who seem to be functioning within a more classically shamanic perspective. They tend to see entheogens--and the visions and powers they enable--as something experienced for a community larger than themselves.

Maybe there's a third camp too: those who are just interested in seeing what they see when they "do" psychedelics.

i'm not pointing out these differences in approach to say that one camp is better than the other. In fact, it looks more like both are completely and entirely necessary for the most efficient advancement of knowledge in our little underground community. This discussion board fulfills, to a significant extent, McKenna's (recently quoted) wish for "lots of diaries" so we can see what's really going on.

i'd place myself in the shamanic camp first and foremost. IMO, entheogens are too hard on the body, too risky legally, and too often disorienting for too many days in a row for a merely personal payoff. The pretty lights are cool, the out-of-body stuff is exhilarating, but if what i'm experiencing and learning isn't benefitting everyone i meet in some--however subtle--way, i just don't need it.

Been reading Campbell along with my class this week (reviewing his "Monomyth"). The following lines seem to comment upon some of the ideas raised in this thread:

"The traditional idea of initiation combines an introduction of the candidate into the techniques, duties, and prerogatives of his vocation with a radical readjustment of his emotional relationship to his parental images. [Campbell was a big-time Freudian and unreconstructed sexist.] The mystagogue (father or father-substitute) is to entrust the symbols of office only to a son who has been effectually purged of all inappropriate infantile cathexes--for whom the just, impersonal exercise of the powers will not be rendered impossible by unconscious (or perhaps even conscious and rationalized) motives of self-aggrandizement, personal preference, or resentment. Ideally, the invested one has been divested of his mere humanity and is representative of an impersonal cosmic force. . . . he is competent, consequently, now to enact himself the role of the initiator, the guide, the sun door, through whom one may pass from the infantile illusions of 'good' and 'evil' to an experience of the majesty of cosmic law, purged of hope and fear, and at peace in the understanding of the revelation of being" (Hero with a Thousand Faces, 136).

i guess this is what attracted me to entheogens after i read BOTH: the notion that my work on purging my infantile obsessions with My preferences, My tastes, MY self, My ideas about the world around me, MY agenda, etc. could be accelerated by the judicious use of entheogens. i've never thought of them in any other way than as tools to help "me" radically realign "my" center from my "mere humanity" to become a "representative of an impersonal cosmic force." (In Buddhist terms, this cosmic force is Compassion.)

[Walkaway]

---
> Enough already! The above-quoted and
> recent tendency on this discussion
> board to cut & paste single lines
---
I cut and paste the segment of someone's post to which I am replying. In some cases these are single lines, but in many cases they are large blocks of texts. Go look before you go off on another rant. This is, by the way, an artifact of my Usenet posting style that I have been using for nearly 7 years. Occasionally people complain about it, but that usually seems to be when they don't have more substantive criticisms of the content of my posts.
---
> from other people's extended posts
---
LOL. I write extended posts, buddy. In fact, my 'extended posts' were part of the 'extradordinarily elaborate' discussion of dissociatives lamented by Daniel.
---
> & then gain-say them with snippy
> one-liners is getting really, really old.
---
It's not a snippy one-liner to ask why Daniel is so concerned with people who use ketamine talking about their ketamine experiences when he wrote a book about various of his drug-induced experiences. Neither is it snippy to ask about ravers who snort ketamine and dance, because Daniel claimed that ketamine turns people into couch potatoes. Both are relevant. See?
---
> If you've got something to say--either
> from your reading or your lived
> experience--then say it.
---
Check.
---
> But do so in a way that we can see the
> full context of your thinking and the
> point you're making.
---
That's exactly why I post in the manner that I do.
---
> If you don't have an argument to
> make or an experience or an insight
> to share, please spare the rest of
> us the tedium of wading through
> line-after-line of carets and dashes
> and all the Don Rickles-esque wisecracks.
---
If you want to be spared 'tedium' just scan down until you see text that doesn't have a > in front of it. It's easy.
---
> It's not funny
---
I don't do it to be funny.
---
> it's not leading to a deeper
> understanding of the subject at hand
---
David Orange appears to disagree.
---
> and it's just not interesting.
---
Fine, don't read my posts.
---
> The primary reason i carve one evening
> a week out of a jam-packed life to read
> what gets said here is that--nearly
> always--the posts are well-informed,
> well-reasoned, full of links and quotes
> from all kinds of sources i'm
> unfamiliar with, and carefully and
> respectfully articulated.
---
Thus far, I have cited more sources than anyone else that I've seen on this particular forum.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[David Orange]

Originally posted by Walkaway:
---
---
David Orange appears to disagree.
---
yeah, but david orange is an ass!! :D

just kidding...anyway, while we're on the subject of complaining about posts, the posts which most bother me are the ones i've seen where folks attack or insult daniel. thoughtful criticism of daniel's book or his posts is to be expected, of course, (and contributes to lively, thought-provoking discussion)...but this is a forum which he has been kind enough to provide for everyone, and simply insulting him or directing snide remarks at him seems equivalent to doing the same while being a guest in someone's home...

i frequent here partly in the hopes that this forum will be free of the nastiness that is all too prevalent in other places on the web and in the outside world...even if one vehemently disagrees with daniel or someone else's ideas, it's more than possible to express one's feelings/thoughts in a cordial manner.

of course, people will have differing ideas as to when friendly bantering crosses the line over into unwarranted nastiness, so i guess we all need to stretch a little-- the thin-skinned among us may need to remember not to take things so personally, while those of us who tend to be a lil' snarky at times may need to resist our temptations to fire off our first thoughts...i think i probably fit into both categories! smile.gif