Request for info: 2C-I

[postmodernennui]

I am curious if anybody knows anything about the "spiritual" aspects of 2C-I. Have people encountered helpers or entities when under the influence of this drug?

Thanks

[Magnus_Grey]

2-C-I is an experamental reserch chemical. It has a high body load, uninspiring mental depth, and an unfortunate variablilty of effects from person to person. I do not reccomend it.

[sire_012]

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ci/

on the other side of the coin, i know many people who have found it *extremely* interesting.

[Walkaway]

These people probably found it interesting as a party drug that caused euphoria, stimulation, mild empathogenesis, and visuals without too much of a 'head fuck.' That is the standard description for this compound. Personally, I do not find that description at all interesting.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[ October 03, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Walkaway ]

[Walkaway]

"(with 15 mg) Comfortable onset. Most notable are the visuals, patterning like 2C-B (Persian carpet type), very colorful and active. Much more balanced emotional character, but still no feeling of insight, revelation, or progress toward the true meaning of the universe. And at 5 1/2 hours drop-off very abrupt, then gentle decline. I would like to investigate museum levels."
---
Pihkal Entry (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal033.shtml)
---
"...[S]till no feeling of insight, revelation, or progress toward the true meaning of the universe."
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[Morninggloryseed]

I had a very special spiritual experience with 25 mg of 2C-I. Here are the notes from that experience,

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16728

That was the last time I took such a high dose. I have since found lower doses to be just as valuable as high dosages, and now I usually only take 16 mg when I use 2C-I.

[daniel]

The experiences in PIKHAL have begun to be taken as Holy Writ, which is silly. Those were not large-scale stastical surveys, just the reactions of a few very specialized individuals. One man's party drug may turn out to be another's introduction to the Cosmos.

[Walkaway]

---
> I had a very special spiritual
> experience with 25 mg of 2C-I.
---
I was actually going to link to your trip report as an example of the other side of the possibilities with this compound. OTOH, I think it is undeniable that the majority of reports for this compound seem better characterized by the quotation from Pihkal than by your experience report.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[Walkaway]

---
> The experiences in PIKHAL have begun
> to be taken as Holy Writ
---
Certainly not by me. I was quoting what I considered to be a representative statement on the majority of experience reports I've seen for this compound.
---
> which is silly
---
Yes. For example, Sasha's doses of 2C-T-7 are completely inadequate for my purposes. 40 milligrams of 2C-T-7 leaves me barely more than sober.
---
> Those were not large-scale stastical
> surveys
---
True.
---
> One man's party drug may turn out
> to be another's introduction to
> the Cosmos.
---
True. Out of curiosity, would you extend your reasoning to methamphetamine, cocaine, and heroin?
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[daniel]

Walkaway: "Out of curiosity, would you extend your reasoning to methamphetamine, cocaine, and heroin?"

I suppose so, but the vast majority of cases in our culture show the opposite of enlightenment is usually the result.

Of course, coca is a sacred plant in Andes, and opium has been used as a consciousness-expander by Cocteau, De Quincy, etc, not to mention use of the poppy by the Ancient Greeks etc. I know of people having kundalini-rising experiences on meth. And of course, tobacco, which you didn't mention, is perhaps the most sacred plant of North and South American tribes. Context and atittude is everything.

However it is pretty obvious that the usual modern Western result of using these substances is meaningless self-oblivion.

I keep thinking that the modern form of initiation is the alchemical/Tantric idea of "converting the poisons into medicines," so there is probably some use for everything.

[sire_012]

daniel:
However it is pretty obvious that the usual modern Western result of using these substances is meaningless self-oblivion. ralph metzner's essay 'Molecular Mysticism' found in C. Ratsch's collection "Gateway to Inner Space" brings up a similar question that is quite unsettling. essentially he questions why have things such as coco, tobacco, caffeine - and now entheogens - which were revered as holy and used for transcendant practices in other civilizations been systematically adopted by westerners and almost immediately turned into substances profaned and abused, turning from substances of potential grace into catalysts of self destruction. the answers one can come up with are embarrasing at best, but i'm afraid those answers don't let us off so easily. it seems fairly painful evidence that even the most austere tool can be turned into a practice of folly by someone with ill intentions. but if that is the case, the opposite may be true as well.

[affe23]

daniel:
"I know of people having kundalini-rising experiences on meth."

Similarly, Kola Nut, one part of the original coca cola, basically contains caffeine as it's active compound and is used in Africa to open different energy nodes along the spine.

Also alcohol has long been a sacrament to different mystery cults (including catholicism) and is consumed copiously by Nepali shamans. According to Ratsch-

"Whether or not alcohol acts as a poison or a medicine depends on our state of awareness when we are drinking. Conscious drinking - remaining aware of our own state of consciousness - can transform the effects of alcohol"

I also know of a firend who after ingesting woodrose seeds found the drinking of a can of leinenkugel to be a truly ecstatic experience. This was a polar reversal of normal effects of alcohol he experienced.

I tend to think of psychoactive substances in musical terms. Taking the same set of notes and tones you can phrase them to produce wildly different effects.

[daniel]

afee: ""Whether or not alcohol acts as a poison or a medicine depends on our state of awareness when we are drinking. Conscious drinking - remaining aware of our own state of consciousness - can transform the effects of alcohol""

Right - this goes to the heart of the new Tantric forum. Some sutras say that one should drink to the point of falling down, then get up again - the point is to consciously master states that bring most people to non-consciousness. Gurdjieff seems to have tried practicing something similar.

[affe23]

Daniel:
"Some sutras say that one should drink to the point of falling down, then get up again - the point is to consciously master states that bring most people to non-consciousness."

This could also serve another purpose in forcibly severing social ties with the mainstream cultural current the practicioner finds themself in. The Agori Babas in India eat human flesh as a part of their initiation into the sect. This has the effect of ostracising them.

Peter Lamborn Wilson describes many different heretical Islamic and Sufi traditions that do things like drink wine during ramadan, contemplate homosexual sex with young boys as meditation, and write apologetic tracts for the devil.

All of these seem to function well as belief smashers.

(should this be moved and begun anew in the left hand forum?)

[Walkaway]

---
"Sorcery: the systematic cultivation of enhanced consciousness or non-ordinary awareness & its deployment in the world of deeds & objects to bring about desired results...The dullard finds even wine tasteless but the sorcerer can be intoxicated by the mere sight of water. Quality of perception defines the world of intoxication - but to sustain it & expand it requires activity of a certain kind - sorcery...Incense & crystal, dagger & sword, wand, robes, rum cigars, candles, herbs like dried dreams - the virgin boy staring into a bowl of ink - wine and ganja, meat, yantras, & gestures - rituals of pleasure, the garden of houris & sakis - the sorcerer climbs these snakes and ladders to a moment which is fully saturated with its own color, where mountains are mountains & trees are trees, where the body becomes all time, the beloved all space."
---
(Hakim Bey, *T.A.Z.*, pp. 22-3)
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[Walkaway]

---
> he questions why have things such as coco,
> tobacco, caffeine - and now entheogens
---
Tobacco is an entheogen, as are the others.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[evlove]

My first experiment with 2C-I was a very deep learning experience for me, in which I was shown a piece of myself that I hadn't previously acknowledged. My partner and I were discussing a friend of hers with whom I had never really gotten along. This discussion led me to see many ways in which I was responsible for this state of affairs and this was completely novel to me. I saw how I had acted like an asshole when I could have made things much easier. I sat with the realization that I had been mean and nasty and it led to thoughts of other relationships in which I had done the same or could have done things in a more loving way. This was difficult, but not as hard as it might have been otherwise. I felt ok to look at these parts of me. I came out of the experience with a fresh sensitivity to how I was interacting with others, to positive effect.

[ November 21, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: evlove ]

[Walkaway]

That's all very nice, but not precisely relevant to the original question:
---
> Have people encountered helpers or
> entities when under the influence
> of this drug?
---
Beyond that, while your experience certainly sounds helpful, it doesn't sound especially more impressive than 50-100 ug of LSD, and I think that 2C-I has more worrisome toxicity issues.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[evlove]

I believe that dealing with interpersonal issues is very relevant to discussion of the possible spiritual aspects that one could take this substance. And while I didn't percieve any entities or helpers or anything like that, I did feel like there was something "holding my hand" through the experience, which made it possible for me to see these other sides of myself without turning away. I might not have done the best job of conveying the total impact this experience had on me, but I assure you that I was taken completely by surprise and affected very deeply.

I have no doubt that numerous substances (or situations or methods) could have brought about (or more precisely, been associated with) a similar experience, but this one happened to me while I was on 2C-I.

[ November 24, 2003, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: evlove ]

[Walkaway]

---
> I believe that dealing with
> interpersonal issues is very
> relevant to discussion of
> the possible spiritual aspects
> that one could take this substance.
---
Fair enough, but I could mention cocaine, methamphetamine, dextroamphetamine, and methylphenidate in the same connection. It seems rare for persons within the 'psychedelic' subculture to admit that these substances might have some 'mind-expanding' potentials.
---
> And while I didn't percieve any
> entities or helpers or anything
> like that, I did feel like there
> was something "holding my hand"
> through the experience, which
> made it possible for me to see
> these other sides of myself
> without turning away.
---
I had an experience with some extremely good crystal methamphetamine that was very similar. (it's been years since I used meth, and I am NOT advocating its use) However, this does not allow me to generalize that methamphetamine is frequently turned toward such spiritually/mentally productive ends, nor to conclude that these benefits outweigh the potential physical toxicity. I simply think that in comparison to such substances as LSD, psilocin, and even mescaline (which is itself a bit more toxic than the former two substances) substances such as 2C-I are an inferior product.
---
> I might not have done the best job of
> conveying the total impact this
> experience had on me, but I assure you
> that I was taken completely by surprise
> and affected very deeply.
---
It certainly does sound lovely/productive. I have to admit that I'm a bit interested in giving 2C-E a whirl, but the majority of reports I've heard for 2C-I sound rather unappealing.
---
> I have no doubt that numerous substances
> (or situations or methods) could have
> brought about (or more precisely, been
> associated with) a similar experience,
> but this one happened to me while I was
> on 2C-I.
---
Fair enough.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[ December 02, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Walkaway ]

[evlove]

Walkaway,

I agree with many of your points and I sincerely hope and believe that divinity can be found anywhere and everywhere, however some situations may make this a little easier to recognize for particular individuals at particular moments.

The only thing I wonder about is your claims of 2C-I's toxicity. Do you have any references of this?

[Walkaway]

---
> The only thing I wonder about is your
> claims of 2C-I's toxicity. Do you
> have any references of this?
---
I've seen a number of reports that indicate headaches, tachycardia, and other undesirable side-effects supposedly only seen with 2C-T-7. Increasingly, it seems to me that the entire 2C class is rather variable from person to person in terms of dose sensitivity and toxic side-effects. This includes 2C-B. I am more than happy to go into more detail, if you like.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[fungus44]

Fair enough, but I could mention cocaine, methamphetamine, dextroamphetamine, and methylphenidate in the same connection. It seems rare for persons within the 'psychedelic' subculture to admit that these substances might have some 'mind-expanding' potentials.
Fair enough. I have had quite mind expanding journeys connected to rather banal chemical instigators. We shouldn't fetishize any particular chemical or plant (maybe witht the except of hemp (but hemp nuts drive me nuts)).

2CI has so far given me 3 lovely, utterly enjoyable experiences, and brought out good qualities in myself -- concern for others, intellectual and aesthetic appreciation, and a willingness to listen to others while, in one particular occasion, being completely ripped. Very little of the hubris alcohol or cocaine bring out.

All this business about "beings"... yikes. I'm obsessed with them, especially cartoons, but they shouldn't be taken too seriously. Within Buddhism they're generally regarded as just another level of illusion. No? Right now I'm infatuated with diagonal lines.

My best housecleaning has been done under the influence of dexedrine or psilocybin, so who's to know?

[ May 05, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: fungus44 ]

[VeganReich]

I did 2C-I right after or before new years (I was at a hippy hostel in the forest with where i consumed lots of Red Dawn, massive doses of pot and hash oil, and tryed mushrroms for the first time so im a bit hazy on when everythign happened) I took it a little while after night fall and proceded to smoke on a 5 gallon gravity bong, I enjoyed the body load quite a bit, I had a feeling similar to euphoria, and I just stared into the black sky watching these really cool color swirls. All in all if I could find it again I would definitly love to try it again, possible with shrooms this time.