DiPT - First Time - Energies Were Communicating With Me

[Morninggloryseed]

5/25/2003
70 mg of Diisopropyltryptamine hydrochloride

Perhaps a half-hour before the substance was ingested:

I’m not really too certain what to expect tonight but I sure am getting excited! This especially tends to happen when I am trying a new material for the first time. I have had this chemical for a few years now but I never got around to tasting it because until a few recent reports I have read, DiPT seemed like nothing more than mere “novelty drug.” There was never much of an interest in trying it just so I could hear people’s voices sound like frogs and robots. But curiosity sparked by these reports which suggested it was more than just an auditory distorter, as well as the gentle encouragement of a few folks I know whom have sampled the material and loved it, had finally gotten to me. Now after all this time I am ready to give this stuff a go.

I don’t want it to be too intense since it is my first try with the drug but I think seventy milligrams will be enough to provide full effects without bowing me over. I tend to be very sensitive to tryptamines, and actually most psychedelics when I think about it, so I am sure I’ll get to where I want to be with this dosage. Oh well, it is all out of my hands now as the dose-level has been already been decided and the substance has already been weighed out and encapsulated. The pure-white crystalline material has a slight indole smell, but nowhere near as pungent as DPT or AMT’s overwhelming odor. It reminds me more of the smoother sent of DMT.

I am sharing this material, as well as the evening, with M who is a newer friend of mine. He is no stranger to the psychedelic experience, but is also trying DiPT for the first time. This will be our second trip together, and it is always a joy to do this sort of thing with new people. Our first psychedelic experience was a couple of months ago and it involved a few grams of dried psilocybin mushrooms and then some ketamine during the comedown. It served as a great bonding experience for the both of us, and we had an absolutely profound and fantastic time. It was my first time with psychedelic mushrooms in many years, and I had forgotten how good they really are. But that will have to be for another report!

Anyway, it is a beautiful night here in Colorado. Very mild temperatures, and there is no wind to bring us a chill. Perfect for exploring nature. The sky is slightly overcast so the moon and stars are covered up for the most part, but there is still plenty of light for us to see. I’m not too worried. The dilated pupils that will no doubt result from DiPT ingestion are sure to make us more sensitive than usual to the darkness of the night. Our plans are to eat the capsules, smoke a little pot, and then take a walk to wherever our legs decide to bring us. We each get into some warmer clothes for the evening hike and begin to enjoy a nice bowl of marijuana.

Perhaps a half-hour later:

We are both feeling something, but it is not really a reaction I can readily define. I notice some body warmth, generalized feelings of happiness for simply being with my friend and my two pet cockatiels who are on my shoulders, and also just for being alive. I guess this feeling can be called a gentle euphoria. The bowl of pot is finished so we are going to take off on our walk.

The day after:

Wow! DiPT exceeded any and all of my wildest expectations.

M and I began our walk and felt nothing more than the initial warmth I mentioned for some time. Both of us even commented at one point during the hike that the night might have been much more interesting had we each taken one hundred milligrams of DiPT instead of just seventy. The effects stayed at this mild level for at least an hour. The only other thing I noticed in the beginning was that everything appeared to be normal, yet somehow things were “different.” It was though I was seeing the world from a different point of view, although things didn’t actually look any different.

My friend commented that he noticed none of this beyond the feeling of warmth in his body. M had decided to take us to a park he was familiar with in the hopes that the frogs would be out singing and looking for a mate, which would obviously be interesting to hear with the audio distortions DiPT is known to produce. The walk we were going to take was approximately two and a half miles long, but I am a regular bicycle rider in excellent shape, so I did not worry or anticipate any troubles.

At some point during the hike, we both began to notice a distinct “tryptamine” body buzz. I even noticed some mild trailing and color-enhancement when I looked hard enough for it. There were also some closed-eye visuals that I can only describe as flashes of energy and light. It reminded me of a stroboscope. M said he noticed the CEVs somewhat and commented that my voice seemed a little lower to him, and soon after he said that I noticed the same in his voice as well. However my own speech still sounded normal to me. After a good hour or so of walking we reached the park M had wanted to visit and went to find a nice place to sit and chill.

Unfortunately there were only a few frogs singing that night because of the cloud cover and lack of any significant moonlight. The frogs sounded normal to my ears, but our voices were definitely becoming more and more altered as each moment went by. They sounded deeper, and a bit muffled. It was as if the middle and higher frequencies of our voices’ sound spectrum had been filtered out, allowing only the lower ones to be heard. I was reminded very much of running my voice through an electronic graphic equalization device.

We sat down on a bench and then all at once the DiPT hit me very strongly. A powerful wave took over me and I went from a mild plus-one to an impressively strong plus-two in the space of perhaps five minutes. We were in the middle of a local park listening to the frogs and talking to each other. At this point, I did not notice a whole lot in the way of audio distortions other than the vocal changes but the general intensity of the experience was rapidly climbing to a very powerful and unexpected degree of power.

Although the effect of DiPT was NOTHING at all like that of MDMA, it is the only material I can think of that reminded me of the “rushiness”, mild sensory enhancement, and empathetic feelings towards M that I experienced during this phase of the intoxication. The main difference though from MDMA, apart from the audio changes, was that this psychedelic didn’t have the seemingly forced positive mood direction of MDMA, although I did feel absolutely fantastic and was thoroughly enjoying myself in every way. Another difference was that there was a distinct tryptamine feeling, instead of MDMA’s amphetamine/phenethylamine feel.

M and I sat on the park bench for what seemed to be a timeless period and engaged in some of the deepest and most insightful conversations we have ever had between the two of us. It felt so absolutely delightful to just lay back and listen to what he had to say. At times it almost seemed as though my soul existence were the words we spoke. By this time, I was fully under the influence of the drug and now was at a complete and intense plus-three. I was absolutely shocked. I expected nothing more than audio distortions and a body-buzz from this material. But I was experiencing a full-blow psychedelic trip of incredible intensity.

I had completely lost track of the time, so I have no idea how long we actually remained in the park but eventually we decided to continue on with our hike. M had a place in mind that he said was full of energies from old souls and that we should go there. Though it was located behind an active factory, he believed I would be impressed with the area. I agreed without a second thought, so off we headed to this place that I had never been. Walking was a little difficult for me because it was a bit dark and my gait was a little unsteady.

M had no trouble walking and he commented that the DiPT made his eyes much more sensitive to the dark. Although we had both taken the exact same dosage, we were obviously on two different levels. I felt a little bad about it in fact because I was so immersed in the effects of the drug, while M experienced very little besides the audio changes, a body-buzz, and some minor closed-eye visuals. I think it simply came down to the fact that the night was just was not his time for a peak experience. In a sense, it was good that it worked out as it did because he played the role of the guide. I was certainly in no condition to direct us anywhere. Although I was completely familiar with the hiking trail we were on, as it is a part of my almost daily bicycle route, I would have been very lost without his help.

Eventually we made our way to the spot behind the factory that M had in mind, which was next a very fast-flowing creek. The water was incredibly high due to the large amount of rain our drought-stricken state had been blessed with recently. We found a rock right next to the water and we both sat down. I think it was at this point that I really began to peak. The intensity was shocking to me. I could see and feel what felt like ancient energies all around me. Thoughts flowed through my head like the water in the stream. I was able to think so clearly about my life and the current situations I was in. I knew this was a very special place to be in.

I was quite uncoordinated when it came to handling objects in the dark so I asked M to pack us a bowl of marijuana, to which he happily obliged. We smoked it and then M announced he wanted a few moments to be alone. I was completely fine with that and he took off a little further down the creek leaving me alone on the rock to be with my thoughts. This is when a very special event occurred.

I had already felt the presence of several different energies around me since we had arrived but I paid no real attention them. Colorado is full of these energies, so it was nothing too unusual for me. In the past I have had some incredible paranormal contacts in the mountains, and most of those times were without the aid of a psychedelic. But now that I was away from M, these energies decided to interact directly with me. There was the distinct feeling that I was no longer alone, though at no time did this frighten me. I knew these were benevolent spirits and they meant me no harm, nor did I mean them any. But I was in their territory and they were curious as to who I was and what I was doing there. I closed my eyes and I could see various forms of light and energy moving in organized fashions. Each movement seemed to have meaning though I was unable to really make sense of it all.

Some of the energies were communicating with me through a series of tones, beeps, and clicks. It was a method of communication that I had never even dreamed about. This was very computer-like, yet it sounded completely natural and organic. I closed my eyes again, sat on my rock, prayed, and sent positive vibes and energy to these beings and immediately I felt them returning the same happy vibes right back to me. At this point I think I was flirting with the rare and blessed plus-four. Although in the purist sense of the matter I strongly believe all things in the universe are interconnected, these energies were not any kind of an extension of myself. It was something beyond my soul, and beyond my regular existence. These were the true “locals” of the area, and they were investigating who I was and what I had come there for.

After some time M had come back from his journey upstream and I suggested we make our way home, as we had a long walk ahead of us. I really wanted to get back before the drug wore off so I could explore the effect of DiPT on music. M reported he felt very little from the material anymore, save for the deepening of our voices, but the mild closed-eye visuals and mental introspection he noticed earlier was definitely coming to an end. I noticed a decline in the physical effects of the drug, mainly the tryptamine body-buzz, and the open and closed eyed visuals, but the effects of the substance on my own voice for some reason seemed to become even stronger.

Now it was seemingly not only lowered an octave or so, but the actual tonality and harmonic structure also was rapidly changing in quite a dramatic fashion. I just could not get over how this chemical caused my brain to process sound, and I had to repeatedly ask M if my voice sounded normal to him. He reported each time that it seemed slightly lower than normal, but for the most part it sounded as it always was did. But the changes I heard were so dramatic I could scarcely fathom it was only in my head, and I was totally flabbergasted. Of course I acknowledged the DiPT produced the changes, but one can never really understand how dramatically such changes in audio perception will affect them until they personally experience it. I knew DiPT would be a unique experience, but this was beyond anything from even my wildest dreams.

Eventually, after a slightly exhausting walk and a few more bowls of pot, we made it back to my apartment. By this time, M was feeling next to nothing from the DiPT and I was mostly down too…or so I thought. I decided to put on some music to examine the most well known aspect of the drug. What happened next was as profound and dramatic to me as meeting the energies by the stream earlier in the trip. The first recording I put in was from Jefferson Airplane’s debut record, “The Jefferson Airplane Takes Off.” When I heard the first tube-distorted guitar notes of Let Me In, my eyes opened wide and then my jaw literally dropped to the floor in complete shock and amazement.

The guitar sounded as if the signal was being run through a digital octave device. A cheap, low quality one at that. It sounded tinny and synthetic, and it had what sounded like digital clipping blips. Digital clipping occurs when music is recorded louder on a digital recorder than the device is capable of receiving, resulting in a prominent clicking noise. I think I listened to that song three or four times in a row just out of sheer amazement. I just could not believe a chemical could cause such distortions. Unfortunately, M experienced none of this. To him, the recordings sounded as they always did.

After hearing a few more songs from that record, I put on White Rabbit from Jefferson Airplane’s second album. Again, the changes produced from the DiPT were dramatic. Grace Slick actually sounded like a man! Interestingly enough, not all noises seemed to be affected by the DiPT. The drums in the beginning of the first song, She Has Funny Cars, seemed as they always did. But when Jorma’s guitar began to play, it seemed to be at least an octave lower than normal, and it sounded completely out of tune. I understood what someone meant when they said (of DiPT intoxication) harmony does not exist. It would have been interesting to record some of our own music (I am a music producer and have a home recording studio) but we were both exhausted from the long walk and didn’t feel like doing much but sitting.

Eventually I turned off the music and M and I smoked some more pot. We talked for a bit about our experiences, and then M said he was ready for bed. He retired to my guest bedroom and I turned on the news to catch up with the world. I took three milligrams of melatonin and some calms-forte (an herbal sleeping pill that contains hops and passion-flower) and eventually drifted off to sleep with no difficulty. I slept well throughout the night.

In the morning, we both felt well rested, and M was sweet enough to take us out and treat us to a nice breakfast. There was no washed-out feeling or hangover at all. On the contrary, I felt absolutely euphoric and grateful for what I had experienced. M said he was a little disappointed that he did not get more effects from the DiPT, but said he was happy to be my guide. Anyway, he said, there was always a next time. And there will be for sure.

Conclusion:

I must say that I am really very, very impressed with DiPT. Although one exposure is not enough to judge the value of any compound, I really think (for me) that this one may be a keeper. In other words, it is one I would actually use for the purpose of obtaining insights and problem solving. So far there have only been few of the exotic synthetic psychedelics I have tried that I can really say fit into this category. 2C-I, 2C-T-7, DPT, and methylone come to mind as being materials I feel are just as good as the classic tried, tested, and true entheogens like LSD, MDMA, mescaline, and psilocybin.

Usually with the exotics chemicals, I take them two or three times for the purpose of evaluating what they do for me, and seeing if they have the possibilities of producing consistent and valuable entheogenic experiences with minimum disturbing side effects. If I find that they do not, I simply forget about them and move on. And I must admit I really enjoy being a guinea pig. I am aware I am stepping into uncharted waters, and taking unknown risks. But I also think highway driving is near suicide and I live in a small town without one. So it all balances out.

This trip occurred at a point in my life where I am going through some major life changes. I have moved out to be on my own. And for the first time ever in my life, I do not live with another person. Previously I have either resided with my parents or a girlfriend. One really gets to know whom they are when they live alone and I have learned things about myself that I’m not sure I could have under any other circumstances. I am also about to enter graduate school, which means my dream of becoming a licensed private psychotherapist is going to come true. A new chapter has begun! This DiPT experience allowed me access to some fantastic personal insights, which have proven to be very valuable to me in these existing circumstances, and my current quest to finally become my own independent person. I am forever grateful for what I learned that night.

I don’t know if this experience with DiPT was just a one-time rare gift from the universe, or I am somehow ultra-sensitive to this compound and I had what is (for me) a typical reaction to the dosage I took. I am going to wait a good few months and try to find out find out by taking the same dosage in as similar a setting as possible before the summer months, and the beautiful weather they bring, comes to an end.

One final comment is warranted: I did not have any real negative side effects from DiPT. At points, there was what I’d call a “tummy rumble” which basically means slight nausea. But that was so mild it is hardly worth mentioning. At times I also had a bit of a bloated, gassy feeling in my lower stomach. But again, it was very mild and not much of an annoyance at all. The body-high itself felt great. There was a clean-feeling tryptamine buzz but with a little unique flavor all its own. I hope subsequent experiments prove as interesting and valuable as this one. It’s nice to have new allies.

[ June 10, 2003, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Morninggloryseed ]

[Buzz]

Great story morningloryseed. I got goose bumps when you began talking about the experience by the creek.

I'm an old man around here, compared to most of you, and have never even heard of DiPT. I visited Erowid vaults after reading your story and am very disappointed to discover that DiPT, along with AMT (another drug I've never heard of) became Schedule I felonies as of April 2003. The Dark Lords of Doom continue their nasty work.

A couple of months ago I came across some images on Art Bell's site that may be of interest to you. url follows:

http//www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page70.html

[Buzz]

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page70.html http://www.coasttocoastam.com/ ( http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page70.html)

[Morninggloryseed]

While I would not call DiPT (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dipt/dipt.shtml) exactly 'legal' because under the US analogue law (http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/law/law_fed_analog_act.shtml) it is illegal to consume or sell as a drug because of its structural resemblance to illegal substances, it is not illegal to simply possess or purchase DiPT if it can not be proven that you intended to use it as a drug.

You are thinking of 5-MeO-DiPT (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dipt/5meo_dipt.shtml). They are two very different substances. On a molecular level, 5-MeO-DiPT is DiPT with a methoxy group at the 5-position. Have a look at the different structures (http://www.erowid.org/cgi-bin/chem_compare/chem_compare.cgi?LM=_ch_dipt_ia_dipt_3d_mid.jpg&RM=_ch_5meo_dipt_ia_5-meo-dipt_3d_mid.jpg) of both of them.

Both AMT (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amt/amt.shtml) and 5-MeO-DiPT were outlawed because too many idiots found out they could be purchased over the Internet and both drugs ended up getting into the wrong hands. They were both involved in hospital visits and AMT may have even caused a few deaths.

5-MeO-DiPT has been showing up in pills that were being sold as MDMA (XTC), and is also widely being sold to kids as 'foxy methoxy.' Kids who know nothing about this substance that we don't even know anything about. There have only been a few animal studies on it. We know nothing of its pharmacology in humans, or of its (if any) long-term side effects.

While I don't agree with the notion of adults being denied the right to put what they want in their bodies by drug laws, you can't blame the DEA for taking steps to stop the ability of kids to purchase these drugs on the Internet without any control. It is their job, not that I like it.

But 14 and 15 year old kids were buying them and taking unknown dosages of each. Some of them were even snorting them, which make the effects a lot stronger, including the negative side effects. These drugs (especially 5-MeO-DiPT) require sophisticated and expensive milligram scales to measure out a dose. A good 8 mg dose of 5-MeO-DiPT is a tiny amount of powder, and there is no way to safely estimate a dosage. The difference between 8 mg of 5-MeO-DiPT and 20 or 30 mg does not look like much to the human eye. Trust me. Humidity, how finely crushed the drug is, and various other things can influence how dense the powder can be at any given time.

The worst part about it these substances being made illegal is not that it is harder to get them. Who cares! They both suck. But now it will be very difficult for scientists to study these materials. I've never taken AMT, but 16 hours of a speedy psychedelic high with lots of nasty side effects doesn't sound all that fun to me. There are some positive reports on AMT, but not many.

I have taken 5-MeO-DiPT three times and without a doubt it is the lousiest drug I've ever eaten. Here is a link to my experiences (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=11026) with it. It was ok at 6 and 8 mg, but the body-load becomes too much at dosages above that. And (for me at least) the mental rewards are far and few in between. There are much better materials I would rather put in my body than 5-MeO-DiPT.

But DiPT was fantastic. I'm so glad I got the opportunity to try it. I feel such a double-edged sword with posting this report on the Internet. I shutter to think how many idiots, which seems to be most of the people I read about who buy these readily available on the internet 'research chemicals', I have influenced into taking various tings. I get so many emails from people about drugs; it's frightening to think what kind of file the DEA might have on me. I don't exactly keep the lowest profile. I hope I'm just being paranoid.

But I feel the need to share the information so others can know what to expect, and simply to document what these materials do, but my god I don't want to be the one that influenced some jackass to snort 200 mg of DiPT because he read I had a fantastic time eating 70 mg.

Well I hope you found all this informative. Thank you for reading it, and for the nice words.
for the nice words.

[ June 06, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Morninggloryseed ]

[Morninggloryseed]

Interesting pics. I am not sure what to make of them. As I get older and wiser, I encounter so much that few things are even weird to me anymore.

[Halfglass]

Morninggloryseed: Interesting--I never get enough of reports. Can you tell any more about the method of communication? (I know translating with the syntax twisted isn't easy.) Reason I'm interested is I heard similar computer-like pops and clicks while in a trip/trance coming from some Other.

[daniel]

It is funny how much my own ideas have shifted. When I read this report now - and I have read many like it on Erowid - I get a bit nervous. Considering how freeform Erowid seems, it is also interesting that there seems to be a kind of developed form of what a trip report is, and in many ways it, of course, reveals aspects of our cultural conditioning. Someone could write interesting anthropology or rhetorical analysis on the "trip report" form.

Sometimes I wish the trip reports started with the dream of the night before and ended with the most significant dream or life-event of the next week or even month. The trip reports tend to be these narrow encapsulations of a particular event, yet in real life powerful trips often have complex and long reverbations (which you do refer to at the end).

A line from William Irwin Thompson, which I read after finishing my book, stays with me. He thought that "naive use of psychedelics was eroding the boundary between the "real world" and the "astral plane."" (also virtual technologies and some other phenomena I can't recall). He considered this a destructive phenomenon, which I do not.

Those of us who have the courage or instinct to take these substances tend to feel so pleased when we can report "energies were communicating with me" and they seemed "benevolent," but what do we really know about what is going on "out there" (or "in here" or wherever it is)? It reminds me of c19th mediums who were so pleased when an entity answered their call - or all of the channelled works that are popular today. How do we know whether any entity is benevolent or tricky or downright sinister, even if it seemed "benevolent"?

Ultimately I believe these explorations are, on balance, a good and necessary thing - but it is a closer balance than those in the entheogenic world generally want to admit. I really strongly recommend that people who are doing this kind of work seek out convincing shamans who can "check" them from time to time, to make sure no unwanted energies or entities have hitched a ride.

[Morninggloryseed]

Well I guess I see what you are trying to say, but even here in Boulder, Colorado with all the 'colorful' people we have here, I'd seriously doubt the authenticity or advice of almost anyone who labels themselves a "shaman" I found around here. I wouldn't need to seek out some stranger. I know plenty of wise people, people who's eyes are open way more than mine, but a true Shaman isn't likely in this area of the world. You can't exactly look them up in the phone book either.

On top of that, I don't see why you made quotes from a book you said you don't believe in anyway (all while mentioning your own book.)

Again, I understand where you are coming from and I hope I don't appear disrespectful. But at the same time, I trust my instincts and my awareness. I've encountered negative energies before and avoided them. I've also encountered negative vibes within myself and have sought help in getting them out. I can feel them and I trust my instincts to know.

I don't doubt what you say might happen, can happen to me. But I truly don't think it has at this time, and I'm sticking with that. But I appreciate the advice Daniel.

[sidecross]

“…I really strongly recommend that people who are doing this kind of work seek out convincing shamans who can "check" them from time to time, to make sure no unwanted energies or entities have hitched a ride.”

Who is to decide who are “convincing shamans”? Is not this the path that has led us to trust in hierarchy; or to use a well known quote: “who is to police the police”?

Psychedelics may only be a key to the door, but what is beyond that door may be so vast that no two people will share the exact same meaning.

[daniel]

I suppose by "convincing" I meant part of a traditional lineage - which means, generally, indigenous. I know these folks are in short supply.

I do agree with Thompson that "naive use" of psychedelics is eroding the boundary btw the physical world and the astral realm. However our chaotic catapulting over that divide seems to be part of the general situation we are in - another manifestation of the "End of the Cycle."

I also agree it is good to follow one's instincts and proceed with basic trust in life and in the flow of events.

[logik808]

Hi Daniel, just wanted to clearify a few things, and add a few things as well...

When I read this report now - and I have read many like it on Erowid - I get a bit nervous.You state reading this kind of report makes you nervous, yet to do not directly relate why it does, you only allow the reader to infer why themselves. Is it the fact that it resembles this 'rigid' trip report formula you say seems to have become popular that makes you nervous? Or is it more related to the details you express further along in your post?

it is also interesting that there seems to be a kind of developed form of what a trip report is, and in many ways it, of course, reveals aspects of our cultural conditioning. Someone could write interesting anthropology or rhetorical analysis on the "trip report" form.I would imagine that what you've stated here is fairly obvious and self-evident. Anything that's called a "report" to me sounds like something formulated or standardized to an extent. Obviously by living in a society that holds the scientific method so dearly, this type of progression or occurence seems natural and logical, wouldn't you agree? When basic universal structures or principals become accepted and implemented by most people, there is usually a good reason for it. They are accepted because they offer some benefit in recording or organizing the data/information, even if it is just a record of personal impressions. It also helps serve as a reference point for others. And I totally agree with your last sentence in that particular qoute.

Sometimes I wish the trip reports started with the dream of the night before and ended with the most significant dream or life-event of the next week or even month. The trip reports tend to be these narrow encapsulations of a particular event, yet in real life powerful trips often have complex and long reverbations (which you do refer to at the end).It's already been established that what we are refering to here is a 'trip report' and not a personal memoire. I tend to think that one of the main purposes of the many 'archives' and forums out on the net that offer such information is not to provide an archive of personal memoires but rather an archive of 'trip reports' (as defined above by yourself). Often times these sites will include areas containing other insights or memoires, but there is a clearly defined differentiation. It helps editors map the information contained within a site much better, which in turn helps readers find the type of information they are seeking more precisely. That of course all depends on what type of information you are attempting to provide and how.

Usually these reports attempt to provide dosage size/weight, body weight, conditions, etc., as well as the basic events and reactions to the compound. Again I think that these serve more as a reference point and resource for others seeking out information within these archives concerning the compounds (as opposed to subjective insight into the experience as well as its surrounding events). I don't necessarily think that keeping the two seperate is such a bad idea. Although I would have to say that I would find it useful or at the very least interesting to have access to the personal insights stemming from an experience, perhaps contained witin a link or a more in depth analysis - seperately. However if someone wanted to include it, I would see no problem with that(generally speaking).

And like I say, where as having the more personal aspects and reactions into an experience are very useful, I do not think it is a bad thing to keep them seperate from a report as such. For a while I studied Ninjutsu. Our sensi offered two main courses of study. The mechanical and physical aspects of the art form, and the spiritual and mental ideologies - seperately. He did not require the second to study the first, it was voluntary. There is a good reason he presented the information in this manner. Not everyone will benefit in the same way from the spiritual aspects of the art form, nor do some people have the intent to want to learn them. However everyone can still receive benefit from learning the mechincal aspects of the art form in terms of physical conditioning (health), practicing discipline, learning to defend yourself, etc. And the second is not required to derive these benefits from the first. In some cases, with some people, knowing the spiritual and mental ideologies may enhance what they receive from the mechanical aspect, but this depends on the individual. Shouldn't someone be allowed to study the mechincal aspects without being obligated to study the spiritual? I know this is not quite a direct correlation to the trip report quote of yours, but I hope you can see where I am going with this idea.

Not everyone is going to get something useful out of someone else's personal insights into an experience, and for this reason I think it is perfectly fine to omit the information. I agree its interesting to have, sometimes useful, but this will change from person to person. So just because some people might find this information useful, would all 'trip reports' benefit from containing this information? There is always the chance that someone's personal insights and events surrounding an experience might negatively impact a reader's perception of the experience and the compound as well (biased by the insights and events). And just because a report might be "narrow" and not include information and speculation about events prior to and after the experience, does this make the experience any less valid, or of any less use to others seeking information regarding a certain compound (generally speaking)? Also just because one person might not be able to make any correlation relating major life events (preceding and prior)to the experience, does this mean the experience was of any less benefit to that person (or others)? I find most people are usually good about trying to make some sense of the events, or offering some sort of personal insights, even if they do not relate to major life events (subjective or not) surrounding the experience.

A line from William Irwin Thompson, which I read after finishing my book, stays with me. He thought that "naive use of psychedelics was eroding the boundary between the "real world" and the "astral plane."" (also virtual technologies and some other phenomena I can't recall). He considered this a destructive phenomenon, which I do not.
I was a little confused by the use of this paragraph in your presentation of ideas. By including this quote do you mean to say that you agree that something similar to what he stated is taking place, but unlike him, you do not believe it is destructive? If so I don't understand why you would then ask people to seek out shaman to check for "unwanted energies or entites". This would imply to me that you do believe it *could* be destructive. Therefore, if such is the case, I would not have stated so confidently, "He considered this a destructive phenomenon, which I do not." I might have said, "He considered this a destructive phenomenon, which I agree (or disagree) with partially." Such as you believe it can be destructive, but is not necessarily always. Also I was a litte confused by your reference to your book? What foundation were you trying to lay by including that statement. I don't really understand how it applies to that quote at all (or the post), and it seems like it only exsists to plug your book without much other merit.

Those of us who have the courage or instinct to take these substances tend to feel so pleased when we can report "energies were communicating with me" and they seemed "benevolent," but what do we really know about what is going on "out there" (or "in here" or wherever it is)? It reminds me of c19th mediums who were so pleased when an entity answered their call - or all of the channelled works that are popular today. How do we know whether any entity is benevolent or tricky or downright sinister, even if it seemed "benevolent"?Of course we feel pleased, why wouldn't we? If we perceive an experience as being positive in some form, naturally don't you think the response would be a desire to express that in some way? I do understand you are showing us the possibility that the experience (on a higher level) may not actually be of the nature of which we perceive it to be, but is it then a bad thing (or unnatural) to feel pleased when we do perceive it as such, or express it as such? And just as you stated, how are we to truly know? The best we can do is relate our experience and attempt to make sense of it on our own level of experience, and that is exactly what people are doing when they feel pleased to relate an experience they perceived to be positive. Isn't it all subjective experience and ideas in the first place? Perhaps our perception of the experience in some way reflects on, or adjusts, or redefines the the nature/source of the experience (by peceiving it in the ways that we do - such as positive)?

If these events are truly taking place "outside" or "in here" as you put it, how can you assume our perceived experiences of benevolence or malevolence are simply extended into this other level of existence? Perhaps they exist and are being channeled from a state of reality/existence in which human experiences such as benevolence and malevolence do not exist or mean something else entirely and this is only how we (on this level) interpret the information? Again as you have stated, who are we to truly know? Therefore what is the point of your question, "How do we know whether any entity is benevolent or tricky or downright sinister, even if it seemed 'benevolent'?" As you pointed out yourself, we simply don't (or have no true way of knowing at any rate).

Ultimately I believe these explorations are, on balance, a good and necessary thing - but it is a closer balance than those in the entheogenic world generally want to admit. I really strongly recommend that people who are doing this kind of work seek out convincing shamans who can "check" them from time to time, to make sure no unwanted energies or entities have hitched a ride.So from what I can tell that you have stated here, in relation to William Irwin Thompson's quote, you believe that such might be happening (in relation to 'the real world' and 'the astral plane'). Or at the very least that our experiences and exploration into these matters are not destructive by nature, but can be. Otherwise I'm still confused as to why you even included the quote other than to say you didn't agree with it.

You seem to ask, "who are we to know any of these things?" And then from what I gather from your statements you believe you obviously seem to know some of these things (at least enough) to advise people to seek out the help of shamans during their explorations. This just seemed a bit contradictory to me. There is nothing wrong with either of the two statements in general, but to make both in the same deliberation seems illogical. Who are we to know whether or not these shamans are not "benevolent or tricky or downright sinister, even if it(he/she/the shaman) seemed 'benevolent'?", as you put it? How can you apply this same logic to your closing statements? I hope you can see it clearly does not work. How can you discredit or challenge the nature of subjective feelings/faith of others regarding their experiences, and then turn around and make statements of subjective feeling/faith yourself? I hope you follow me here.

I appologize if I have misunderstood the points and ideas you meant to get across with your post. I was a little bit confused and this is what prompted my reply. Some of the ideas you introduced are of course good ones, and constructive (I thought), but yet some areas appeared unclear, or to contradict (or at least subtract from the validty of) other statements you made. No bad blood, but I am curious to hear your reply.

[ June 10, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: logik808 ]

[daniel]

hey logik,

did you study rhetoric in college or something?

The point of my answer is that I am honestly ambivalent. I suspect Thompson is on to something - we may be releasing a lot of weird and not-well understood "energies/entities" through naive and nonsacramental use of these substances. However it is also part of the situation we are in - at the "End of the Cycle" or the Kali Yuga or whatever you want to call it - that some of us are compelled to perform these explorations to determine for ourselves how these other realms exist.

To drift off the subject, I just read an interesting book "Turn Off Your Mind" on the negative aspects of the occult revival of the 1960s. Lachman, the author, notes a relation between John Dee and Edward Kelley channelling Enochian entities during the Renaissance - the same entities were contacted by Crowley - and Leary later experienced these entities in the same desert that Crowley met them - ending up in the desert after running from the law. Crowley's most extreme encounter occurred 60 years to the day before the Altamont concert.

Steiner talks in his book "How to Know Higher Worlds" about the dangers of forcing occult contacts - which is what Dee, Crowley, and Leary tried to do. I just wonder if they may have contributed to the negative occult and chaotic aspects of the end-of-the-60s failures through their dabbling with these forces.

[Morninggloryseed]

Originally posted by daniel:
hey logik,

did you study rhetoric in college or something?
Haa haa haaa! LOL.

[Anita]

Just peeked in to see what was going on on this list,and I must say I am in somewhat of agreement with the author Daniel quoted,While I think the "blurring of the lines"is a natural phenomena,probably having something to do with the galactic alignment etc etc,I believe the use of any mindaltering drug is pretty dangerous in these times,simply on a very personal hunch.
I "feel"the prescence of a lot of different entities waiting to and wanting to influence what we call reality,and some of those are not nice at all!The scary thing is that some of them seem to be really good at flattery,I call them the whisperers.They will tell you how good everything is and how wonderful you are,but when challenged turn ugly real quick.Anything that seem to speak of separation is suspect IMHO,and yes,if it speaks to the self of better than or smarter than or betterlooking than etc etc,one is wise to question the power that speaks.
Morninggloryseed,I know that I am completely off the subject of your post here,and I also am not saying that that is what happened to you.
I just don't think the entities on the other side of the veil is all good....So for any newbie who checks out this forum,be aware of how your everyday life goes,that is one of the ways
you can tell what this stuff is doing to you,I also think to be grounded in faith to the highest good is almost a must,that and a real good dose of humility.
As always,appreciate y'all
Anita

[Morninggloryseed]

Originally posted by Anita:
I just don't think the entities on the other side of the veil is all good.They sure are not. I've encountered entities with ill/bad intent both while on psychedelic drugs, and while on nothing. I'll never forget an experience on DMT in which a being tried to coax me into following it. I do not know what it wanted but my instincts told me it was evil and to ignore it. I did.

[logik808]

Yo Daniel,

Heh just to let you know, I've looked around the site a bit more and to an extent I probably share a lot of the same ideas and feelings. I hope you didn't take my post too personally, to an extent I was trying to evoke a certain response.

I have no problems with what you were saying, in fact I would admit I share a lot of the same beliefs. I'm more satisfied with your response to my post than your original post. I think the whole subject very interesting, and it's probably wise to wave some flags and use caution with it.

Basically the first post to me sounded like a slight criticism on the fact that someone was posting a "trip report" on your site. It also sounded like you tried to state such in a way that was attempting to make it sound a little less directed toward the invididual as well as being slightly indifferent (which it obviously wasn't). My guess is that where as you don't "claim to know" these things for sure, I think you probably have pretty strong and founded opinions in the area.

I understood the points you were trying to make, yet your post didn't really evoke from me: "this is what I believe - and this is why." Just seemed that based on a few things you said you were kind of hinting at a few things without coming right out and nailing them. I was just trying to evoke a little more in this department.

It's a hard subject, and leaves a lot open to speculation and subjective feelings. Was the "accidental" discovery of certain compounds (such as LSD) not as accidental as we would like to think? If not, is it the universe playing a strange joke or having an interesting experience with human consciousness? Or is there more of an issue with a hidden agenda / direct control on our level of percption that we are unaware of. Was the whole psychedelic revolution (although it might have seemed as such) not such a spontaneous work of chance as some of us would like to believe?

Curious as to your ideas on a couple of the questions I posed. First of all concerning things such as benevolence of malevolence and their source and meaning at higher levels of existence or awareness. Do you think they carry the same basic emotional energy and experience to these higher levels such as we experience them (as part of the human experience), or do you think at these higher levels, their meaning and purpose, etc., take on a completely different (or more complex)form? Also do you think through interaction with such forces - how self on (this level) defines the interaction (i.e. positive, negative, happy, sad) affects the nature of these forces themselves in the sense of adjustment, redefinition, or reorientation (at higher levels)?

As you stated before, you believe that perhaps this might be the end of a cycle and that the situation we find ourselves in now isn't necessarily a negative thing (as far as the increased curiousity in psyhedelic compounds). If this is so I would have to say seeing things such as "trip reports" all over the internet isn't necessarily a bad thing. On the one hand, where as an inclusion of slightly more spiritual personal insight into the reaction with these forces would indicate a higher level of spiritual perception and responsibility cultrually, I still do not think it's necessarily a bad thing that many times this information is absent. I stand by my belief that these spiritual observations may at times do more harm than good. In some cases others (readers) will not be ready for such insights which may lead them astray or confuse them. Also perhaps some of these insights are not meant to be shared on a mass level.

As you've pointed out, whether or not we like it, or whether or not 'we' know what we're doing, these experimentations are inevitably going to take place in the long run. Probably with increasing frequency, and there's probably not a whole lot we can do about it. It's probably also safe to assume that many of the people experimenting with these substances lack the spiritual foundation or level of awareness that you or I would hope for.

For this reason I think where as it may not be an ideal situation, things such as "trip reports" given in such a rigid format are perhaps not so bad at all. People entering into the world of psychedelics who chose to experiment with these forces lacking a strong spiritual awareness who are indifferent may not be looking for spiritual insights (such as synchronicity of events) from others, and may in fact scoff at them. But perhaps it is this indifferent flirtation that opens someone up to these concepts later on down the line. I also tend to feel that once people are ready for such concepts they tend to gravitate towards them on their own any how. Also this format of trip reporting may serve as a guidline for a healthier experience for someone who is going to be experimenting with the compound regardless of having access to the report or not (in the sense of bodily reaction and dosage size). This information is presented more concicely in this format without having to impatiently search through endless personal spiritual insight. Sad, I know, but true. Just trying to be realistic here.

Any how I realize this post is getting a bit long, and I'm begining to ramble so I'll post this response and wait.

(:

[daniel]

I think the trip reports on Erowid are absolutely amazing - amazing reading, incredible and invaluable to have the opportunity to cross-check one's experiences with others.

Yet my reservations still stand.

I don't think the appearance of LSD was accidental - in 1943, during the "Final Solution", in Basel, the European center for alchemy. I think we are in a "cosmic play" stage managed by God. I think that the development of global consciousness is like the process of fetal development - as tightly structured and carefully timed as a Bach fugue.

When we make the "leap" to the next stage of human consciousness, we will find a way to resacralize the Earth and human existence. Then we will find the proper value and ritual structure for using these chemicals. It may be that the plant-based organic ones will prove to be the really healing and valuable compounds, and the others will be seen as similar to radiation or organochlorides - Pandora's Boxes we will eventually learn how to close again.

[logik808]

I understand your reservations, but like I said I'm just trying to be realistic about our current situation. I think the reports for the most part are beneficial. One of the primary arguments against them is that they may influence the people who read them into experimenting with compounds that perhaps they really should be leaving alone.

On the other hand if this person has found their way to a site or archive related to such information, it is probably safe to assume they were on the path to trying these things regardless, and in this sense I think it is benefical to have as a resource to hopefully make more well informed decisions (the reports).

I'm not saying the situation itself is pretty, just that in light of the current situation, and the fact that whether we like it or not, it's going to continue, I don't have any reservations with these reports and for the most part would rather have them around than not.

I've had the same feelings recently about synthetic and organic compounds. I am pretty much losing my interest in anything synthetic and tending to lean more on the organic forces, and am trying to put a little bit more of the proper intent behind their use. Part of me is still not quite finished with these synthetics though and a few of them manage to grab a hold of my curiosity.

As far as I'm concerned I do not know for sure these synthetic compounds have negative consequences by nature. I rather prefer to look at these forces as indifferent and that they can be used for the greater good or for destructive purposes, etc.

I guess the story becomes a little bit different when they fall into the hands of a culture which is particularly biased in certain areas. The results tend to reflect these biases and our conditioning en masse.

It's kind of like the whole gun argument. A lot of people in gun law arguments like to point out that guns are just objects, and guns don't kill people, people kill people. Now if you just want to have a philosophical discussion on guns by themselves using that scope, great, yes guns are indifferent in that sense, sure. However the problem with the logic there is that when we apply this logic to gun laws, the scope changes. We're not talking about guns seperate from people, we're talking about guns and people together (or guns as extensions of people). In this scope I tend to think that frame of thought tends to backfire, and works against itself.

Sure guns by themselves are indifferent. Yes people kill people. But the point is if people kill people, and guns aid in the ease or ability to kill someone else, claiming that guns are indifferent doesn't really do much in the argument because the scope of the original logic is lost. If an indifferent object can be used by a subjective force to increase that subjective force's agenda, the object no longer becomes indifferent in the scope of that situation. In fact it essentially takes on or increases the agenda of the subjective force.

This too could be said for the organic compounds as well. I guess the only difference is the energy surrounding these organic compounds and their purpose and creation as opposed to that of synthetic compounds tends to be of a different history and nature. We may find that eventually with the proper intent and energy put into the creation and use of these compounds, that they can be used for the advancement of all in a positive manner.

It is an interesting balance. As things accelerate both in the sense of technology and the sciences, and our own understanding of who we are and why we are here as sentient beings, everything intensifies. I think now more than ever (in recent history that is) the amount of our population (world-wide) who are beginning to realize the possibility of these forces existing is at an all time high. Important to this balance is the number of individuals aware of this connection (in whatever form they are aware of it) and the increased possibilities of their existence, as well as their perception, intent, and use of this awareness. I think this is the current balancing act which you speak of. Learning to give the proper meaning to this understanding, but the meaning given is also based on the perception of this understanding - very interrelated.

Ok, starting to ramble again...

[sire_012]

daniel wrote:
To drift off the subject, I just read an interesting book "Turn Off Your Mind" on the negative aspects of the occult revival of the 1960s. Lachman, the author, notes a relation between John Dee and Edward Kelley channelling Enochian entities during the Renaissance - the same entities were contacted by Crowley - and Leary later experienced these entities in the same desert that Crowley met them - ending up in the desert after running from the law. Crowley's most extreme encounter occurred 60 years to the day before the Altamont concert. *very* interesting. Leary actually believed at one point that he was a reincarnation of Crowley, which doesn't make much sense when you realize Leary was alive well before Crowley was dead. However, Crowley had a premonition of a magickal child of his being born right around the year Leary was brought into this world (Crowley though Frater Achad was his magickal child and was quite disappointed to see how he mangled the deal), this seeming a bit more plausible as far as the implausible goes.

They both seemed to have been gobbled up by Choronzon on one level or another. I believe it was while Crowley was doing his Enochian invocation of the 30 Aethyrs that he invoked Choronzon to "cross the abyss". He battled with him for several days and, according to Crowley, finally banished Choronzon. However, it was not long after his return from the desert that he began another string of lawsuits, lost many of his followers, and fell prey to heroin addiction. Leary definitely seemed to embody many aspects of the Choronzon archetype as he dipped further from his prodigious work with psychedelics into his more media saturated/coke fueled battle with waning popularity... turning something as beautiful as head change into a meglomaniacal media campaign is most definitely a Choronzon move.

I didn't realize that Leary felt that he had encountered Enochian beings while in the desert... that is just down right fascinating.

[daniel]

sire

you sound knowledgeable on the subject, can you give more info on the Enochians - what exactly Dee thought he was contacting - and also on the "Choronzon archetype"?

I really suspect none of this was accidental.

[sire_012]

The Enochian System of Magick - http://members.cts.com/king/s/saoirse/EnochianMagickHistory.html - was originally discovered by John Dee, then court astrologer to Queen Elizabeth, who amongst his other skills was allegedly an intelligence agent of some sort who would use the name 007 regarding his duties. Dee made the aqcuiantance of Sir Edward Kelly a fairly well known charlatan and occultist in his own right. They began a communication with what they felt were the dominion of YHWH, the hierarchy of Angels who would dictate to Dee and Kelly the language of Enoch (or the Language of Angels) which was complete with its own grammer and syntax - http://members.cts.com/king/s/saoirse/EnochianMagickFrameSet.html . They would describe to Dee and Kelly, essentially how to climb this heirarchical ladder of Angels - from the more earth inclined, task driven angels whom humans reportadly communicate with more readily, to the archangels who sit at the right hand of god and only show their head to tear apart the material plane in order to emenate the eschaton... to bring upon the apocolypse. The system is very ornate, extremely complex, and extrememly powerful. I would assume its complexity is a kind of protective door to keep the casual passerby from taking hold of the powers of god and destroying the material plane. For instance, if you are desiring an invocation of EXARP who is one of the more powerful angels, you must first invoke all of EXARP's predecessors or there's no show. Furthermore, there are angels that exist in the letters reading forward on the 4 Tablets (there is one tablet for each element - http://members.cts.com/king/s/saoirse/EnochianElementalTablets.html - and also Angels names who must be called as they are read backwards and also transposed. Again, these seem to be safe gaurds to insure there is no cheating, no short cuts taken.

In addition to the invocation of the Angels whom Dee and Kelly spoke with using an obsidian Skry stone (Kelly was the seer, Dee the scribe), there are also 30 Aethyrs - http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/enochian/a_brief_synopsis_of_the_contents.html - or planes of existance that can be skryed, allowing one to communicate with intelligences and explore some fairly objective imaginal worlds. This is what Crowley was doing when he met Choronzon on December 6, 1909.

Choronzon - http://hem.bredband.net/arenamontanus/Mage/chor.html - is, according to many and my own experiences, the most powerfully degraded form of existance one can stumble upon/into. Choronzon's number is 333, the manifestation of manifestation gone corrupt, spinning inward, devouring oneself in oneself... the most material form brought into its most mundane, and thus profane and self consumed permutation. Choronzon can be manifest quite plainly in the heroin addict... or any addict for that matter. When I think of Choronzon, I imagine a being who first latches onto other people, devouring them and their resources through flattery and dependance, and once all others have abandoned, the host then begins to dine on themself. The Golem from the Lord of the Rings series could be a fine example of a being who has been taken by Choronzon. The junky archetype is impeccable in its parallel. In many ways Choronzon strikes me as the shephard of the elemental beings when viewed in his role within the process of manifestation... an obsessiveness of form that is required for any act of powerful or lasting Art, but that form collapsing under its own construction by losing sight of proper timing and withdrawal; this is why it is said all magicians must face Choronzon at some point to attain ascension.

Choronzon is the patron saint of Beauracracies... for that mattter the patron saint of the USAs present incarnation, with its corruption of freedom sold under the defamed auspise of 'patriotism'. The belief that it is Patriotic to lay the basic tenants of Freedom to dust is the formula that feeds Choronzon. The 7 of cups in the Tarot is its card.

There was a very powerful working that occurred in the early 40s that many people parallel to the Dee and Kelly workings. Jack Parsons, the man who created Jet Propulsion, Jet Propulsion Labs, and is responsible for the space race (he even has a crater of the moon - the dark side of the moon - named after him) made the aqcuaintance of another criminal and well known charlatan - L. Ron Hubbard. Parsons was born on the precise day that the Jehova's Witnesses believe the AntiChrist was born... and it just so happens Parsons felt so strongly that he was the AntiChrist that he called himself that. Parsons was also an active member of the OTO, Crowley's order, and for some time was looking to be the heir to Crowley's throne. That all changed when he met Hubbard and the 2 embarked on a series of magickal workings to first manifest an elemental, and then to manifest the Whore of Babalon. They seemed to have acheived at least a moderate success, and many offer these workings as the thing that opened the door to all of the subsequent Alien scenarios, and paved the way for the Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll of the 60s and beyond. The woman who played the part of Babalon (and believed she was) later made the acquaintance of Kenneth Anger - http://www.kennethanger.com (co-founder of the Church of Satan and an *amazing* film maker) who continued these workings in film form with Innauguration of the Pleasuredome and Lucifer Rising. Soon after the Bablon workings, L. Ron Hubbard ran off with Parsons wife, his boat, and all his money (again very similar to the Dee/Kelly relationship) and about 8 years later Parsons died in a very mysterious explosion at his house in pasadena. All of this incredible story is told in the book "Sex & Rockets: The Occult world of Jack Parsons" - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0922915563/104-8115230-1052708?vi=glance .

There is so much more to tell here, such a truly amazing corner of recent history. I just picked up the "Turn Off Your Mind" book last night and can't wait to ingest that.

for an incredible recent investigation into Enochian Magick check out Ben Rowe's page at http://www.hermetic.com/browe/index.html

and here's a great link page http://enochiana.tripod.com/links.html

[Anita]

Sire,quite a list of reading there,thanks for sharing your knowledge.Will go have a looksee.
Peace
A

[Anita]

Hmmmmmmm,From what I have seen invokation as far as word go is maybe not neccesary.....This is a little muddled for me so bear with me.
We talk a lot about intent,but what of those who really have no intent,except for the urge to just have a good time and be entertained?
I think it may be possible to come under the influence of entities without really realizing that that is what is going on.With time it becomes apparent to those around a person afflicted,even if it is only a feeling of "wrongness"?
Anybody with thoughts on this?
Afterthought,Probably should post this into the navigating death thread,
will continue this on that one
Peace
A

[sire_012]

anita:
From what I have seen invokation as far as word go is maybe not neccesary.....i agree, it is quite easy to get set on without using proper invocations, symbol sets, etc. however, i don't think this is really desirable. it goes back to the ability to navigate.. symbols and the correlatives being the devices to allow us ultimate control (or perceived control) over the situation. perhaps this should offer us some insight into the nature of these intelligences. and also, keep in mind, the intelligence you get by folllowing the enochian formula is going to be of a vastly different nature than a "bloody mary" type or if you just sat down in your basement rocking back and forth, begging to be set on by some alien intelligence. and again, its much easier to get rid of a pest whose properties you know then those that you don't.