Hallucinogens in relation to spiritual practices

[hiosoy]

Hey, I don't know if this has come up yet, but I'm wondering what you all think the correlation between drugs and spiritual practices such as meditation or ritual magick are. They're here for a reason, but goals like opening your third eye can be achieved without the use of drugs. So where do you think they come into play? I like the idea that drugs can speed up the process of spirtual practices, and get you used to some of the feelings and "spaces." Kind of initiate you. Also what about the drugs Mckenna calls 'other worldy' that seem to be a personality outside of your own, like Mr.Iboga in Daniels article he posted. What do you think?

[crown]

Originally posted by hiosoy:
goals like opening your third eye can be achieved without the use of drugs.One might argue it was the virtues of psychoactive plants that uncovered this notion. smile.gif

[Proteus]

Hiosoy: Really good question, one that's been at the heart of my own activity for much of the past year.

i came to BOTH and, subsequently, to experiences with ayahuasca, shrooms, and salvia as a zen practitioner of some 5 years commitment. i still consider myself a Zen Buddhist, but am obviously not so traditional that i was willing to write off psychedelics as "drug use" and move on. i know next to nothing about ritual magick, but have been surprised to discover myself resorting to routines while preparing and consuming various entheogens that include invoking of spirits, cleansing of negative energies through incense, chanting, singing bowls, and something remarkably like prayer. During my ayahuasca experiences, i've been impelled to chant, spontaneously create incantations, and have even "spoken in tongues" (something that comes up quite naturally even now when i prepare a brew, smoke a bowl, or even feel lonely or unhappy).

i guess i'm experiencing first-hand what Crown and others have said: psychedelics may well have been the inspiration for all religious practice and belief. Contact with the otherworldy certainly could have come about that way; but, in my experience, so too could all manner of rituals, incantations, ecstatic possessions, and manifestations of what the New Testament calls "spiritual gifts." (These gifts include healing, speaking in tongues, wisdom, and foresight/prophesy.)

My own experience of psychedelics is colored by what i now notice to be a life-long tendency to the religious and ritualistic. i can't imagine NOT grounding one's psychedelic experiences in various rituals, including consistent meditation practice, and the use of candlelight and incense, prayer/incantation/invocation before, during, and after any such experience. i also can't imagine pursuing psychedelics out of mere curiosity (though i respect those of you on this list who seem to be coming from that place). While curiosity is certainly part of my motivation, psychedelics are, for me, primarily a part of a religious/spiritual practice that, at the core, is designed to condition the mind-body to become a vessel for healing and wisdom. So, too, is Zen practice; i find that this nontheistic practice is not hindered by the use of entheogens. i don't know if tripping is helped or hindered by practicing this tradition, but i see how they can fit together quite beautifully.

[hiosoy]

That's a good point Gelfer, and your ayahuasca experiences are extremely interesting Proteus. I'm just kind of getting into ritual magick now and reading other occult sources like Rudolf Steiner, who's surprisingly precise about everything, there's no grey area with him. Anyways my point is that I'll probably have a better understanding soon of the occult and will be able to clarify this better. For now ritual magick and the psychadelic experience have always seemed different to me. From what I've read the goal of the magician is to come into awareness of the higher self. Magick is described by Crowley as the "art and science of causing change in accordance with the will." The ritual part of it which until I learned more about I didn't understand the necessity of ritual, but then I realised that it's all based on centuries of symbols and things that are engraved in our subconsious. So these tools and symbols helps your lower self understand what you intend. So it's really interesting that you keep naturally reverting towards ritual during your ayahuasca trips, says a lot about the soul's memory, or the spirit of the plant's. Another thing about magick from what I've read is that the more you practice it the more 'powerful' you become, and the more energy you can control and summon, your own 'atmosphere' around you can change apparently. Nothing like that seems apparent iwth psychadelic use, or nothing permanent like that. I'm still not sure about how the two are meant to relate to eachother. If psychadelics were here to open up spiritual ideas and practices in the first place, then what's their relevance now? Unless it is that magick and other practices are the main way of advancement, and psychadelics are here to guide you along the way, and get you used to the other worlds.

[hiosoy]

sorry I meant that's a good point crown, I confused myself.

[crown]

Originally posted by hiosoy:
If psychadelics were here to open up spiritual ideas and practices in the first place, then what's their relevance now?That's a very good question! Lemme think aloud.

I cannot (and would not) say if plants are responsible for the inception of religious and spiritual activity, but congruent with Proteus’ thoughts, it appears to me that they reveal our spiritual practices as something rather innate. (Interestingly, it seems they also possess the power to cement or shatter those practices. Quite an important tool, no?)

I might say I drink Ayahuasca to discover novelty within my life, maybe in the hopes of correcting any malignancies affecting my mind and body, or even to gradually develop some spiritual fortitude...but there is something going on during each of these experiences that supercedes anything I could possibly invent: PRAISE. No matter how epic each journey through the inner may prove to be there is always this one thing that is so crucial, so unrelenting...this is 'praise', or perhaps just another way to say or express our existence. During peak effects, I often find myself in a state of mental ‘prostration’, as if performing some act of praise. I’m probably just being romantic, but I envision this as the “mission” if you will, of spiritual practice altogether: simply to ‘praise’… I have trouble seeing anything to be gained in the larger framework, but of course there are many benefits here in the smaller.

Proteus mentioned chanting and ‘speaking tongues’, and I think this is a perfect example. I have experienced xenoglossia in many encounters, not as if I were making some word for word translation of course but that I knew and identified the 'praise' within whatever I was hearing (inside or outside of the head); I understood it entirely in this fashion. Out of things like this I’m beginning to discover the praise in all things and in all their expressions.

[hiosoy]

That seems like as good a reason as any to do hallucinogens Crown, other than for a reason like breaking open your head. On a lesser level, probably the biggest reason I smoke pot(occasionally) is because I love how it makes me see as I must have as a child, visually everything's more vibrant, and it's a nice change.

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to put spirtual practices like meditation along psychedelics in a more inward revelation category; and put ritual magick in a different category as more of an 'action', something to help life flow better, and get 'outside' guidance.

[ August 28, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: hiosoy ]

[David Orange]

regarding this topic, i recommend the book
"Zig Zag Zen" http://www.zigzagzen.com/ to anyone who hasn't read it...

also "Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas" has interesting things to say about the nexus of traditional spiritual practices and entheogens...besides being a beautiful book with amazing photographs and reproductions of thangka paintings