Writing Style

[drdave]

Daniel, I have read your book & all the posts here.
You have a great writing style but it seems bettered suited for Sci-Fi than a halfassed researched book on entheogens
Your info is flawed and much is purely guesswork & speculation on your part about drugs you have never even tried (i.e. DXM,5Me0-DMT & others to numerous to list) while passing judgement on them.
As for your "insight" in to the human psyche, you need to go back to school, or seek out a "true" shaman to learn from.
I know PeoplesMind personally & he has a better overall veiw of existance than you do.
You sound like a young, undereducated, inexperienced, Terrance McKenna.

[ February 28, 2004, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: drdave ]

[Luna]

Wow, you wouldn't happen to *be* PeoplesMind, would you? Hmph.

If you think his book is uneducated guesswork than why are you bothering to post here?

[willoweyes]

This seems like a good time to tell Daniel how grateful I am to him for creating this site. Breaking Open the Head is original and timely; an honest and sharing revelation by an author who broke himself open and let the world see right inside him. A daring and audacious act.

And here this brave and talented person is taking an interest in his readers--interacting with them. A rare and beautiful sight.

I feel that this is a Webworld, and I feel Daniel is a Shaman, and he is giving us a chance to Become. It takes a "magical" act of will to say yes or no to certain assaults, insults, or changes in our environment. This will is the will that evolution requires. Plants and animals possess the capacity to exercise this will, as we all do.

But we are poor broken children of our poisoned age, robbed of our chance to be men, as chickens are robbed of their chance to be chickens! Without an ally, without the voice of someone who deserves our respect saying ,"it's OK to take a look there. It's OK to walk on that ground" we might very well remain huddled before the warm glow of our TVs, risking nothing.

The will to become can arise in an individual, but like a crystalline structure taking over when a certain saturation point is reached, there must be group contact for change to occur. Here is Daniel, a busy man with a job to do, giving us his time and energy so we can become a group. I am profoundly grateful.

[sidecross]

We are quite capable of discerning for ourselves the content and quality of our reading.

[David Orange]

Originally posted by willoweyes:
[QB]
And here this brave and talented person is taking an interest in his readers--interacting with them. A rare and beautiful sight.
QB]indeed!

[David Orange]

Originally posted by willoweyes:
[QB]
And here this brave and talented person is taking an interest in his readers--interacting with them. A rare and beautiful sight.
QB]indeed!

[Buzz]

Just responding to cast my vote of confidence in Daniel. And thanks for this forum. I've visited a lot of shamen/x-files types of forum over the past 3 years (my extent of computer use). Folks here do not always respond to my input but I prefer that over the trolling that goes on other forums.
After 30 plus years on the psychedelic path I can tell you that I am not a shamen, more of a shaman scholar acquiring information. I think that Daniel and the others here are like that. This is a forum to exchange ideas. And ideas change with new information. If you are looking for answers go somewhere else. To me, this is an explorers forum. Each of us blind folks have touched a different part of the elephant and have our descriptions, emotional reactions, thoughts, and egos to detach from. Somewhere out there is a clear picture but we, as Westerners, are not privy to it. Rainforest Shamen know a lot, a lot more than we do, but that information doesn't come in pill form (or does it?)
Anyhow, thanks to Daniel for sponsoring this forum and to all of you who share your ideas here.
And in light of the current political climate it takes a brave soul to stick their neck out and talk and write about this stuff.

[Gyuri]

Well said, willoweyes; I agree wholeheartedly.

[Danila]

drdave:

Perhaps you can change your mind about Daniel's creation if you stop to think that he does not try to "tell you how it is." He is not claiming to be an authority (unlike Terrence McKenna) on the stuff that he wrote about. As a matter of fact, his book is full of questions, not answers. Do not approach it like it is a bible. It's just one guy saying: "I've done this stuff, it blew my mind, there are other people like me out there, there always were people like me out there, this vast universe we got a peak into should not be ignored, it should be discussed and studied - BECAUSE THIS SHIT IS WAY TOO IMPORTANT."
That's all he is saying, man. Besides, even if Daniel did try to get on a high horse and pretend to "teach" us this stuff, he would still be in the Leary/McKenna realm which, at least to me, is a compliment. Because, hey, even if those guys were completely full of bull, writing a book about this stuff is still a couple of levels above a flame thread in a chat room.
Thank you for your attention.

[PeoplesMind]

Originally posted by Luna:
Wow, you wouldn't happen to *be* PeoplesMind, would you? Hmph.

If you think his book is uneducated guesswork than why are you bothering to post here?No, this is a friend of mine, David. If you would like proof that we are not the same person, there is a variety of methods avaliable to verify this. Firstly, I am a 17 year old residing in Florida, whereas David is much wiser in years, and resides in Alabama. Secondly, our writing styles are different. Thirdly, a simple IP test will verify we do not come from remotely close regions.

peace,
Nitin

[Danila]

Everyone:

Now I want to say something positive. It is really great that Daniel and his book and this forum exist. If not for small tiny groups of people like you guys out there, I would have long gone psycho in the rich ultra-safe suburbs I call my home.

Thank you, everybody, for being here.

[PeoplesMind]

Ok, now that we have clarified that drdave and me are seperate but equal entitities in this plane of conciousness, let me go on to clarify a few points made by a few of you.

Luna : See my above post. In addition to this, i would like to state that people post on these forums not only because they like Daniel, but because we wish to help spread the love & knowledge out there. Constructive criticism is one thing which has helped generations in the past, and we too can learn from the flaws in ways, which is why we undertake in revolutions and sharing of ideas, so we can clarify our thought processes and help others to do the same.

willoweyes : nobody is questioning (in this thread) Daniel's website, but rather this post was meant as a book review (i presume). This forum is not being questioned, but rather my friend, drdave, chose to post his opinions on the book written by Daniel. Please be more accepting of opposing views, as you all should learn from this. On another note what qualifies Daniel to be a Shaman in your opinion?

sidecross : once again, i urge you to be more accepting of views on issues (weather good or bad), and rahter than trying to shurg a concept/idea/reaction off, embrace it and try to understand the perspective a person is coming from, this way you not only learn something, but you allow a user his freedom to post his thoughts and ideas.

Buzz : At least you have the core concepts down. Be accepting of other's views, ect. Which it seems I (as a 17 year old) have down more pat than some of these people who are not willing to embrace opposing views and learn from them, but rather reject them without thought. I still do not see why you gave a "vote of confidence" to Daniel,a s this thread was never a personal attack on Daniel or his forums. Instead if you reat the origional post, drdave is trying to help by giving constructive criticism and his responses to the book written by Daniel.

Yet let me emphasize to everyone, this post is NOT a personal attack on Daniel or his website and i urge you to point out where it was so stated. This thread was started as a thread of a user posting his reaction to the material written by Daniel. In this processs he should not have been shrugged off by this "Cult" of users not willing to embrace other views.

peace,
Nitin

[David Orange]

Originally posted by PeoplesMind:
This thread was started as a thread of a user posting his reaction to the material written by Daniel. In this processs he should not have been shrugged off by this "Cult" of users not willing to embrace other views.

[David Orange]

somebody stop this heathen who dares criticize our Beloved Great Leader Daniel!! i declare jihad! tongue.gif
after which, recruitment and love-bombing may be resumed.

in Sincere Love and Faith to All My Brothers and Sisters of the Campus Crusade for BOtH-ians

[sidecross]

If drdave had placed his post under Reviews of BOTH topic, his thoughts would have had context.

The content and tone of drdave's remark was considered, and my reply is unchanged.

[Danila]

OK, I must misunderstand the word 'constructive' then. Because there is nothing in drdave's comment that I find constructive. Unless you count the word 'halfassed.'

On the subject of Daniel... I don't even know the guy. All I know is that he has gone out on a limb and written a book about stuff that is of paramount importance to me. That is all, no Cult.

Suddenly smells like the Dark Side is near, with all this blatant stupidity...

[sageman]

wow what a pissing match!
I dont have a problem with book criticism however I think the word constructive was lost on Dave.
Everyone is entitled their opinion but I think you might want to keep the gloves ON when you post on the authors site!
I appreciate the site and his efforts,I really like the intelligent conversation here as well (save the occassional book review)
Sageman

[ October 06, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: sageman ]

[PeoplesMind]

Originally posted by Danila:
OK, I must misunderstand the word 'constructive' then. Because there is nothing in drdave's comment that I find constructive. Unless you count the word 'halfassed.'

On the subject of Daniel... I don't even know the guy. All I know is that he has gone out on a limb and written a book about stuff that is of paramount importance to me. That is all, no Cult.

Suddenly smells like the Dark Side is near, with all this blatant stupidity...1) Please cite a refrence for the "blatant stupidity", other than the comments made by yourself in neglecting to notice the vast amounts of constructive posts/dicussion in this thread.

2) The "Cult" was a joke/analogy. Ovbiously David Orange understood this, and found humor in this. This community is ovbiously bonded, like a cult, in the sense that each person supports each other and builds on each other's statement, usually with a strong central dogma. (which is illustrated by the majority of posts being pro-Daniel [the "cult leader"]), and the dogma is usually not open to other interpretations (ie the negative feedback on drdaves comments).

3) Let us examine the statements drdave made, in an effort to better help you learn how things can be "constructive"

First let us define the term. Webster's defintion (from dictionary.com) is as follows : "Serving to improve or advance; helpful: constructive criticism"

Daniel, I have read your book & all the posts here. As should be ovbious, drdave has versed himself in these forums and Daniel's book, and is therefore preparing to state comments.

You have a great writing style By complimenting Daniel, drdave is starting out the dicussion by highlighting some of Daniel's strong points, admiring his writing style (which i too find strong).

but it seems bettered suited for Sci-Fi than a halfassed researched book on ethogens By stating his opinion as to the type of literature Daniel should be writing, drdave is trying to steer Daniel to what drdave thinks Daniel would be good at.

Your info is flawed and much is purely guesswork & speculation on your part about drugs you have never even tried (ieDXM,5Me0-DMT & others to numerous to list) while passing judgement on them.
Any writer needs some criticism on the comments he makes, pointnig out the flaws in his literature/writings/works. By having people (such as drdave) point out the flaws in his writing and information the author presents, the author can learn to patch up and correct these mistakes and become a better writer for it. This is essential in any writer who wishs to develope, to have input from readers as to how the author could stregnthen their writing.

As for your "insight" in to the human psyche, you need to go back to school, or seek out a "true" shaman to learn from. Here, drdave points out another flaw he found in Daniel's work, and there fore advises an approiate course of action to help Daniel overcome the problem which drdave found.

You sound like a young, undereducated, inexperienced, Terrance McKenna. By comparing him to more famous authors, drdave flatters Daniel by comparing him to someone notable, but also points out that there are still steps whcih need to be taken before Daniel can reach the level of the more famous author, if Daniel so wishs.

I hope you understand constructive criticism now.

peace,
Nitin

[Rob P]

Hi Nitin

You say:

"Yet let me emphasize to everyone, this post is NOT a personal attack on Daniel or his website and i urge you to point out where it was so stated. This thread was started as a thread of a user posting his reaction to the material written by Daniel. In this processs he should not have been shrugged off by this "Cult" of users not willing to embrace other views."

drdave say:

"I know PeoplesMind personally & he has a better overall veiw of existance than you do.
You sound like a young, undereducated, inexperienced, Terrance McKenna."

yeah that's not too personal-

You shouldn't be so quick to be proud of your
17 year-old wisdom, because you have
a long way to go to reach the
wise years of your friend drdave!

Pax
Rob

[Joshua30]

DrDave - perhaps you could offer some of your own perspectives on existance and Shamanism. Give us positive experience rather than a meek critique.

"Peoples" - I enjoy reading your commentary - are you planning on going to college? What will you study?

[daniel]

Wasn't going to comment but then I thought, Why not?

What interests me is more this kind of automatic desire to "tear down" and be aggressively territorial rather than build or create something positive. It is typically an adolescent male phenomenon, and an aspect of our deadbeat culture, which lacks any form of initiation rituals to help humanize and socialize young men, above all. I think this amazing book, Voices of the First Day, explains very well why men need some kind of positive initation experience. Tripping one's brains out in a surly and longwinded fashion generally will not do the trick.

drdave, you are more than welcome to write your own masterpiece on dxm and 5-meo (which I have tried by the way, and posted about), and all the other substances and experiences my "halfassed" attempt missed addressing. If it is any good, I will be glad to read it. Also, please, start your own website if you don't like mine.

But think before you manifest pointless negativity. As I have been saying to Peoplesmind, it is not the visionary aspect or glamour of one's trips that is important, it is the kind of person you become through your own transformative process that matters.

Here is a story of the Buddha:

A disciple asked the Buddha to show him heaven. The Buddha said, "If you want to see heaven, I will have to show you hell first." The disciple said okay. So the Buddha took him to hell.

In hell, there was a huge opulent banquet table spread out with amazing food on it. But, unfortunately, all the diners had, instead of hands, extremely long forks. They were unable to put the food in their mouths, and were weeping and gnashing their teeth.

"Hell," the Buddha said.

He then took the disciple to heaven.

In heaven, it was exactly the same situation: There was a huge banquet table, amazing food, and everyone had long forks instead of hands.

But everyone was feeding each other.

[willoweyes]

In retrospect, I feel I might have overstepped my bounds in declaring Daniel a Shaman--a role he has not volunteered to play. I believe it is clear that I was speaking for myself. However, as I understand it, a shaman intercedes and interacts with dangerous forces, usually for the good of his/her tribe. A shaman is on a path of learning about these forces. I don't see "Shamanhood" acchieved at aspecific point on a continuum. I do feel, that in our denatured and dare I say shattered world, an author can be considered a shaman for his\her far-flung tribe of readers.

I understand that the Australian Aborigines include a drastic form of circumcision in their initiation rites--perhaps Peoplesmind should be spared--I leave this to the Tribe to decide.

[Magnus_Grey]

"That's all he is saying, man. Besides, even if Daniel did try to get on a high horse and pretend to "teach" us this stuff, he would still be in the Leary/McKenna realm which, at least to me, is a compliment"

McKenna is not in the same relm as Leary. Daniel is in neither. He has obviously not done nearly the ammount of drug research as other people I know, and this is not a personal criticism. I will say that Daniel is not yet qualified to be a leader of any kind in this movement, as he was not even aware that DXM was a drug. (It is the most commonly used legal drug next to alcohol and tobacco. Daniel is an intersting person, I just think he has over reached his abilites, and that this forum is more about putting daniel on a pedistil and licking his bumhole than about education. You people need to stop fawning and go become your own gurus. Anyone who is still wrapped up in ideals of "natural vs synthetic" still has some intelectual concetual growth ahead of them.

>Wasn't going to comment but then I thought, Why >not?

Because you have nothing better to do with your time?

>What interests me is more this kind of automatic >desire to "tear down" and be aggressively >territorial rather than build or create >something positive.

Lol, do you feel "torn down" Daniel?, you need learn to flow with the Tao. How many hours a day do you meditate Daniel? and do you practice yoga?

>It is typically an adolescent male phenomenon,

Lol, now you pretent you are able to read into others clearly?

> and an aspect of our deadbeat culture, which >lacks any form of initiation rituals

If you belive that you are delusional. It is human natue to ritualize behaviour. Ever been to a frat plegde? That reminds me Daniel, how much colledge education do you have again?

>to help humanize and socialize young men, above >all.

Many of the tribes "native wisdom" is just as unconcious and juvinle as anyone elses. Which tribes are you even talking about? Mayan ? Aztec ? They had some great rituals of initiation. Human sacrifice is not very enlightened. I get tired of all of this "native wisdom" probaganda. People are people are people, and they will always do ignorant and unhealthy things as a whole. Pretending that just because someone eats roots and worships fire is more "enlightned" is just silly.

>I think this amazing book, Voices of the First >Day, explains very well why men need some kind >of positive initation experience.

A true initiation never ends. Are you familier with traditional western magickal systems Daniel?
Or with the ancient rituals of the lower classes of medevil europe? Or with the alchemists? Ever been to a friday night dinner with Sasha Shulgin? and precisly which buddhist paths are you an innitate of again?

>Tripping one's brains out in a surly and >longwinded fashion generally will not do the >trick.

Lol, thats almost all of what a clasical "initation" is, with a little added mental preprograming. A shaman is not magical, nor is he holy. He is just a man, who likes to get high, and enjoys observing and manipulating others. (this is not a moral judgement)

>drdave, you are more than welcome to write your >own masterpiece

Lol, are you calling your work your "masterpiece"? Does this mean you think your next book will be worse? I am very sorry for you in that case.

> on dxm

"I haven't tried DXM and this is the first I have heard about any anti-addictive properties."

>and 5-meo (which I have tried by the way, and >posted about), and all the other substances and >experiences my "halfassed" attempt missed >addressing.

5-Meo what? 5-Meo-DMT? 5-MeO-Dipt? 5-Meo-Mipt? there are at least a dozen 5-MeO's, you should not use that abbreviation, its too vague.

>If it is any good, I will be glad to read it. >Also, please, start your own website if you >don't like mine.

I think you made this site so you could enjoy the hero worship you knew it would attact from the ignorant and loney believers in aliens and magic faeries, but maybe I judge too hastily.

>But think before you manifest pointless >negativity. As I have been saying to >Peoplesmind, it is not the visionary aspect or >glamour of one's trips that is important, it is >the kind of person you become through your own >transformative process that matters.

I agree with this. The funny thing is, to me, you seem to be the one obsessed with visions and entities and teachers. You should be telling others to doubt and find their own light a bit more clearly.

"Here is a story of the Buddha:

A disciple asked the Buddha to show him heaven. The Buddha said, "If you want to see heaven, I will have to show you hell first." The disciple said okay. So the Buddha took him to hell.

In hell, there was a huge opulent banquet table spread out with amazing food on it. But, unfortunately, all the diners had, instead of hands, extremely long forks. They were unable to put the food in their mouths, and were weeping and gnashing their teeth.

"Hell," the Buddha said.

He then took the disciple to heaven.

In heaven, it was exactly the same situation: There was a huge banquet table, amazing food, and everyone had long forks instead of hands"

They had the forks in both heavan and hell? I think you screwed up your story Daniel. It also in no way applies to the topic, but of well. At least 1/2 of your posts are like that anyhow. Btw, Mr. Lotsof disagrees with your views on the safety of ibogaine, how do you like them apples ?

[Halfglass]

What is it with some people? You pick apart the guys response, sentence by sentence like a fuckin' vulture? What for?

[PeoplesMind]

Originally posted by Rob P:
Hi Nitin

You say:

"Yet let me emphasize to everyone, this post is NOT a personal attack on Daniel or his website and i urge you to point out where it was so stated. This thread was started as a thread of a user posting his reaction to the material written by Daniel. In this processs he should not have been shrugged off by this "Cult" of users not willing to embrace other views."

drdave say:

"I know PeoplesMind personally & he has a better overall veiw of existance than you do.
You sound like a young, undereducated, inexperienced, Terrance McKenna."

yeah that's not too personal-

You shouldn't be so quick to be proud of your
17 year-old wisdom, because you have
a long way to go to reach the
wise years of your friend drdave!

Pax
RobHello Rob =)

To reach the wisdom of my friend, Dave, i do need many more years of expierence. I never did state that i know as much as some (or even most) people on these forums. As for things being personal, it does not matter. Ovbiously i stated in the post (please see the quote of mine you provided) that this thread was not a personal attack ON DANIEL. Nor is it a personal attack on anyone else, but this post (like others in this forum) is more socratic, in the sense we help build and refine thoughts/thought processes. Personal refrences can be made (unless the forum rules prohibit otherwise), so i dont see any valid point in your statement.

As far as the mckenna statement is concerned, that too (is IMO) not a personal attack, but rather as i stated earlier, flattery of comparision of a famous figure which many people are well aware of, flattery and criticism, yes they do mix.

Originally posted by Joshua30:
"Peoples" - I enjoy reading your commentary - are you planning on going to college? What will you study?Yes, i plan on attending either University of Florida, University of Centeral Florida, or Florida State University, as to any of these three schools i would receive a full scholarship (woohoo a free ride!). I'm unaware of what i will study yet... more to come on that later =)

Daniel : Agressively terrortorial? Perhaps, i am a vicitim of my state of being at the moment. As for tearing down things and not being able to "build or create something positive" I would have to strongly disagree. If the young male is unable to build or create something possible, how are they able to advance to the next stage of their (our) lives? And also, i have to state for the record i think there has been much positive dicussion out of this thread. =) Thank you for the story as well.

peace & love,
Nitin

PS The reason drdave does not create his own website is because he does not need his own ego support group.

[Magnus_Grey]

What is it with some people? You pick apart the guys response, sentence by sentence like a fuckin' vulture? What for?

It's the only way to respond to multiple complex ideas. For simple ones, a summery works fine

[drdave]

LOL, I was mainly trying to evoke a response from the members who seem to hang on every word Daniel says like it’s a true pearl of wisdom from the lips of Leary.
Daniel you have talent but to try to place yourself among the “true” explorers is a bit of a reach.
I was surprised at the outrage exhibited by some members, these forums are for hashing out ideas, right?
I have no published book and was unaware of it being a prerequisite of being an intelligent, self aware being in search of enlightenment.
I am not as verbose as many but, the truth is the truth, no matter how concealed in speech it may become.
Daniel, you have a talent, work on it, develop it, then really be a shaman, not a wannabe with a book.

[David Orange]

people's mind wrote:
"The "Cult" was a joke/analogy. Ovbiously David Orange understood this, and found humor in this. This community is ovbiously bonded, like a cult, in the sense that each person supports each other and builds on each other's statement, usually with a strong central dogma. (which is illustrated by the majority of posts being pro-Daniel [the "cult leader"]), and the dogma is usually not open to other interpretations (ie the negative feedback on drdaves comments)."

sigh...why am i bothering to add to this nonsense?...actually people's mind, i thought that you made your 'cult' remark in earnest...so i posted a dumb joke to defuse tension and to make light of the notion that people posting here constitute a cult.

anyhow, as evidenced by your above remarks, you've found us out. we are, indeed a cult. we all worship daniel as our guru. we would die for him. we would kill for him. i move that from now on, any posts even remotely critical of daniel or his writings be removed from the board.

& dr. dave=satan and so forth...

[Rob P]

Hi!!

Does anyone remember Emily Litella from
SNL news- many years ago...??

"What's all this talk about too much sax and violins on TV? We need more people that appreciate the musical arts!"

Never mind

[sageman]

...and the soap continues.
I came here to get away from this nonsense people.
Daniel shame on you for getting involved in this.I could see a mile away this guy was looking for a response,to stir the pot.
I am as bad as the rest of you -here i am replying
peace and good journeys,
Sageman

[gone]

STATLER & WALDORF

ALSO KNOWN AS:
Those two old guys in the box.

SPECIAL TALENTS:
Heckling, complaining, being cantankerous

QUOTE:
"Get off the stage, you bum!"

LAST BOOKS READ:
"The Art of Insult" and "How To Insult Art"

http://www.muppets.com/profiles/graphics/StatlerWaldorf_s.jpg

Namaskar

[Charlie]

Originally posted by Magnus_Grey:
"A shaman is not magical, nor is he holy. He is just a man, who likes to get high, and enjoys observing and manipulating others. Do you really believe this? If so, you are denigrating countless indigenous cultures with traditions and knowledge handed down over thousands of years. This is also a serious slight to the shamans themselves, many of whom undergo rigorous apprenticeships with ascetic rigors of meditation, diet and sexual abstinence, in a life-long dedication to the healing of others.

[crown]

Gelfer! lol!