Is ibogane safe?

[Magnus_Grey]

Hello Daniel,

I am a recovering heroin addict, and I could use some advice from you. I stopped using opiates 6 months ago through the use of DXM, LSD, meditation, and group therapy. I have since read your book, and the information on ibogane fascinates me. I really have two questions for you regarding it. First, do you think the ibogane experience is significantly different than other psychedelics? A few doctors I have talked to have told me that they consider it a scam, but I dunno. Do you think that it can help reinforce my decision to quit heroin in a significantly different way than other psychedelics? I could sure use some more help Also, how safe do you think it is? I have heard people complain that it is extremely stimulating at even pre-psychedelic doses, and I think that there have been several deaths in its clinical use. It is safe to take ibogane? And at what doses do you recommend as physically safe? Basically, in your opinion, would you recommend that I peruse this drug? Thanks.

[ October 01, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Magnus_Grey ]

[Magnus_Grey]

Anyone?

[John]

Check out this link: iboga therapy house (http://www.ibogatherapyhouse.org/index.html)

[Magnus_Grey]

Thanks, but I am really looking for a more scientific source. Besides, I trust Daniel, he seems to really know his shit.

[ September 17, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Magnus_Grey ]

[Magnus_Grey]

It seems Daniel did not see my question. I was really looking foward to getting help from him, but I guess he is too busy. I have begun to research this issue on my own, and so far it looks like Daniel's beliefs seem a little unscientific. Ibogane appears to have dangerous stimualnt properites even at theraputic doses, people have even died while getting treated. Also I have talked to ibogane users, and they said that other psychedelic drugs can work just as well, and that ibogane costs way too much for an uninspiring experiance. Daniel, I am starting to wonder if are just telling people what they want to hear. I wish you would use some scientific data to back up your stated position. Also the natural vs synthetic position seems questionable to me as many natively used plants are poisionous.

[ September 17, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Magnus_Grey ]

[daniel]

Hi Magnus,

Some how I missed your question the first time out... sorry. No need to be nasty.

As for "Is Ibogaine Safe?", I can't make that determination for you or for anyone. I have done it twice and felt that it improved me tremendously. I have heard rumors from nervous people that it "permanently changes" something in your brain. I do not know if that is true. I do not know if it would be a bad thing if it did. I think all potent psychedelics effect permanent changes.

"Is Ibogaine a Scam?" No, I don't think so. But set and setting are always important, so if that is one's set the result will follow. Definitely iboga is NOT a cure for addiction. It is a tool for treatment. I do think that for some people it is a very profound and powerful one. It is a very hard teacher that forces you to confront all the shit about yourself you have been wallpapering over with your vanity. It gets down to brass tacks. It digs deep. It is no pleasure trip.

A small number of addicts take iboga and stop using immediately and for good. Others take one to six months off and start using again. Others use sooner than that. If you are already off, then iboga might be very helpful in processing your psychic state. I heard one case where a very committed long-term addict was basically shown on his trip: "Sorry pal - that's it for you. You are finished."

So I do think it is worth trying, but with all the caveats above. It is no magic bullet but it is powerful teacher and its messages tend to stick more than those from other "plant teachers."

Does that help?

[greatdayforup]

Hi Magnus, Hi Daniel. Hi anyone else who's reading.
Before I begin, I want to point out that I am not a therapist, an analyst, a doctor, a shaman, or anything else deserving such an elevated title. I am, however, interested in the themes covered in Daniel's book. I am a human being with a slowly increasing spiritual knowledge. Shit: maybe I can help.
As a recovering 'depressive'I think I spot a familiar reaction in Magnus: You obviously want to heal yourself (surely a core topic that draws readers to Daniel's book). It seems to me that you may have a defense mechanism that activates when you feel helpless and ignored.
For whatever reason, Daniel took more time to reply to your message than was comfortable for you. Daniel is (wether he likes it or not) the guru of this community. By becoming involved in these message boards, we are all, perhaps, expecting much from him. Perhaps we should look more to eachother.
Anyway, I digress...the defense mechanism I recognise is centered around a part of the self that says (or whispers, unheard by the consciousness)'you can't do that'. You've made the considerable effort of expressing your curiosity (and wish?) for a cure. When that huge effort has received no immediate payback, it's safer to reject the possibility of there ever being one of sufficient capability on which to hang your hopes.
So where now?
Re-read Daniel's answer (as if you haven't!)
Now keep talking.

[daniel]

Mr. Iboga is a guru. Mr. Peyote as well.

I am no guru of any sort.

As the Roadman says to the Peyote button in front of him in the NAC teepee ceremony, "Peyote, you are a great spirit. I am only a man..."

[Walkaway]

---
> As for "Is Ibogaine Safe?", I can't
> make that determination for you or
> for anyone.
---
"Yet another source of reports is to be found in some studies that are exploring ibogaine as a treatment for heroin dependency (see De Rienzo and Beal). This end-goal of searching for evidence of addiction confrontation and addiction control certainly can color any published reports in its own way. Here, its the chemical ibogaine only that is used, and typical dosages are at or above 1000 milligrams."
---
"As was pointed out in a pharmacological review (see Popik et al.), as the hallucinogenic dose appears to be several times higher than the stimulant dose, the user must endure intense and unpleasant central stimulation in order to experience the hallucinogenic effects."
---
(http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal25.shtml)
---
"Ibogaine Death in Germany - July 2002
A young woman tragically died during an informal ibogaine session in Germany last month (July 2002). The death occurred about one and a half hours after taking 500mg of ibogaine HCl for personal development purposes. The cause of death is not yet established. The woman, aged 35 years and weighing 63 kg, had used the drug previously on one occasion without problem. Her partner has requested that I put out this basic announcement. More details will be posted once they become available. Note this is the fifth recorded ibogaine-related death in the last 10 years."
---
(http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/new.htm)
---
"PSYCHEDELIC ADDICTION TREATMENT FACES BAN
AFTER HEROIN USER'S DEATH"
---
(http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/issue.htm)
---
IBOGAINE-ASSOCIATED DEATH IN A FEMALE HEROIN ADDICT: FORENSIC AND TOXICOLOGICAL ASPECTS

Maciej J. Bogusz, Helmut Althoff, Deborah Mash, W. Lee Hearn

A case involving the death of a young female heroin addict after ibogaine administration is reported. The drug was alleged to have been administered orally at a dose of 23 mg/kg and later on an additional 6 mg/kg was administered in the course of experimental and officially unapproved anti-addictive therapy. The patient collapsed and died about 19 h after ibogaine administration.
Extremely high levels of drug and its active metabolite (12-OH-ibogaine) were found in blood. The following concentrations (mg/L) of ibogaine and its active metabolite 12-OH-ibogain were determined by GC-MS(1): ibogaine in femoral blood 0.710, in heart blood 0.730, 12-OH-ibogaine in femoral blood 3.900, in heart blood 10.700. In experimental studies the concentration of drugs in blood samples taken 19 h after administration of ibogaine 20 mg/kg were: 0.1-0.2 mg/l for ibogaine and 0.5-1.1 for 12-OH-ibogaine. The circumstances of the case showed that the "therapy" was performed in an unprofessional way and the minimal medical standards were not met.

1. W.L. Hearn, J. Pablo, G. Hime and D.C. Mash, J.Anal.Toxicol. 19: 427-34, 1995.
---
(http://www.tiaft.org/tiaft98/thu/t_o_26.html)
---
DOCUMENTARY MAKER MAY FILM HIS OWN DEATH

AN ACCLAIMED documentary maker has admitted that he is prepared to die while filming himself taking a powerful hallucinogenic drug that has been hailed as a cure for addiction but linked to a number of deaths around the world.
---
(http://mail.psychedelic-library.org/show.cfm?postid=4021&row=45)
---
"In high doses, it produces a hallucinatory inebriation with motor incoordination, and sometimes a state of lethargy lasting 4 to 5 days. In massive doses, ibogaine may cause death as a result of bulbar involvement and paralysis of the respiratory muscles."
---
(http://www.ibogaine.org/barabe.html)
---
In addition to documented deaths, there are a number of deaths in the native Bwiti cults.
---
> "Is Ibogaine a Scam?" No, I don't think so.
> But set and setting are always important,
> so if that is one's set the result will
> follow. Definitely iboga is NOT a cure
> for addiction. It is a tool for treatment.
> I do think that for some people it is a
> very profound and powerful one.
---
I think that the best evidence currently points to dissociative drugs such as ketamine and dextromethorphan having similar effects, with less toxicity - though, granted, both K and DXM can still kill. I question why ibogaine treatment costs so much.
---
> It is a very hard teacher that forces
> you to confront all the shit about
> yourself you have been wallpapering
> over with your vanity. It gets down
> to brass tacks. It digs deep. It is
> no pleasure trip.
---
Ever taken DXM?
---
> A small number of addicts take iboga
> and stop using immediately and for
> good. Others take one to six months
> off and start using again. Others use
> sooner than that.
---
I have seen similar results with use of DXM by opiate dependent persons.
---
> So I do think it is worth trying, but
> with all the caveats above.
---
Is it worth trying if safer chemicals can produce essentially the same results?
---
> It is no magic bullet but it is
> powerful teacher and its messages
> tend to stick more than those from
> other "plant teachers."
---
IMO, the teacher is not in the plant, or in the chemical, but in the person ingesting them.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[ September 18, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Walkaway ]

[Magnus_Grey]

Wow. Now I am really really confused. Daniel?

[ September 18, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Magnus_Grey ]

[crown]

Umm...Cliff...Is your post implying (with repeated reference) that DXM is a safer pursuit than Ibogaine?

[daniel]

Sorry, Magnus

I doubt I can clear up your confusion.

Everybody has their own perspective, their own slice of reality, their own "story."

I haven't tried DXM and this is the first I have heard about any anti-addictive properties. Iboga can't be too dangerous - it is estimated that a half-million Bwiti in Gabon have taken it in large doses initiation. Perhaps a handful of people die from taking it - but people die everyday from all sorts of substances, including alcohol poisoning, etc. I really think I have said what I can say on this subject.

Although of course it is illegal, you could also try to find a transpersonal therapist of the Stan Grof school who uses LSD and take some high-dose trips for introspection, Don't ask me how to find 'em, I can't help you. In this age of "missing information" and disinformation, everybody has to become their own cypher and investigative journalist. Don't lean on my words or anyone else's. Do the research for yourself and make your own determination.

Good luck,
dp

[Walkaway]

---
> Umm...Cliff...Is your post implying
> (with repeated reference) that DXM
> is a safer pursuit than Ibogaine?
---
It appears to me on the basis of available evidence that pure dextromethorphan hydrobromide, administered in common recreational doses, is less toxic than ibogaine. Cheaper, too. Ketamine would be less toxic than either. I welcome any debate on this matter.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[crown]

Fair enough. I'm in no position to debate the health concerns of dissociatives, or Ibogaine for that matter.

[Walkaway]

---
> I haven't tried DXM
---
Starting doses should be no more than 1-1.5 mg/kg.
---
> this is the first I have heard about
> any anti-addictive properties
---
"Dextromethorphan has been used as an over-the- counter antitussive medication for more than 40 years. Its safety profile is extremely favorable. Recently, it has received renewed interest as a medication with neuroprotective effects. Other areas of ongoing research include treatment of opioid-dependent patients and use as a tolerance-decreasing adjuvant medication in pain treatment."
---
(http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/issues/v57n3/ffull/ylt0300-1.html)
---
THE EFFECT OF DEXTROMETHORPHAN IN PREVENTING THE DEVELOPMENT AND IN TREATING THE EXPRESSION OF
WITHDRAWAL SYNDROME DUE TO PASSIVE-ADDICTED TO MORPHINE IN THE NEONATAL RATS

Abstract Author(s):
G.C.Yeh1,2, G.L.Shui2, C.L.Hu3. P.L.Tao4
Affiliation:
1Department of Pediatrics, 2Graduate Institute of Medical Science, 3Graduate Institute of Cell and Molecular Biology, Taipei Medical College, 4Department of Pharmacology, National Defense Medical Center, Taipei, Taiwan.

Abstract Text:

Dextromethorphan (DM), a common used antitussive agent, has been proved to effectively attenuate or prevent N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor mediated neuropathologies by acting as a selective NMDA receptor noncompetitive antagonist. It has been reported that NMDA receptor antagonists, including DM, can attenuate the expression of the morphine withdrawal syndrome in adult animals. Thus, we tested whether this drug could also be effective in the withdrawal syndrome in the neonatal animals. We sub-cutaneously injected female Sprague-Dawley rats with escalating dosage of morphine since a week before mating till the end of first month after gave birth to their offspring. Control rats received normal saline only. The offspring which passive addicted to morphine from the dam rats had higher mortality rate and lower birth weight, and developed overt behavioral change manifested as apparent and frequent abdominal stretching after single injection of naloxone (1 mg/kg). Pretreatment of DM directly on the neonatal rats could abolish the naloxone-induced behavioral change without apparent side effect. We also found that pre-natally injected the dam rats with DM could prevent the naloxone-induced behavioral
change in the offspring born to morphine-treated dam rats. This result indicated that DM may be of usefulness in preventing or treating the morphine-withdrawal syndrome developed in newborn period.
---
Published in: Eur J Pharmacol 2002 Mar 1;438(1-2):99-105 Glick SD, Maisonneuve IM, Kitchen BA, Fleck MW.

Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience, Albany Medical College (MC-136), 47 New Scotland Avenue, 12208, Albany, NY, USA

Abstract:

Quote:
The iboga alkaloid ibogaine and the novel iboga alkaloid congener 18-methoxycoronaridine are putative anti-addictive agents. Using patch-clamp methodology, the actions of ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine at various neurotransmitter receptor ion-channel subtypes were determined. Both ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine were antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors and both agents were more potent at this site than at alpha4beta2 nicotinic receptors or at NMDA or 5-HT receptors; 18-methoxycoronaridine was more selective in this regard than ibogaine. In studies of morphine and methamphetamine self-administration, the effects of low dose combinations of 18-methoxycoronaridine with mecamylamine or dextromethorphan and of mecamylamine with dextromethorphan were assessed. Mecamylamine and dextromethorphan have also been shown to be antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors. All three drug combinations decreased both morphine and methamphetamine self-administration at doses that were ineffective if administered alone. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that antagonism at alpha3beta4 receptors is a potential mechanism to modulate drug seeking behavior. 18-methoxycoronaridine
apparently has greater selectivity for this site than other agents and may be the first of a new class of synthetic agents acting via this novel mechanism to produce a broad spectrum of anti-addictive activity.
---
Before you point it out, I am aware that it states that 18-methoxycoronaridine was of greater activity than the others, but this clearly indicates that DXM has potential anti-addictive activity. I would also point out that all of this research only concerns physiological mechanisms underlying addictions, and none of it concerns psychological resolution of underlying issues giving rise to compulsive behavior. Much of the scientific emphasis seems to be on the development of agents with anti-addictive effects that lack 'psychedelic' effects, which seem to be seen as untoward side-effects.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[ September 19, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Walkaway ]

[Walkaway]

---
> Iboga can't be too dangerous
---
Perhaps it is not as dangerous as the various tropanes (perhaps), but the toxicity of ibogaine is clearly greater than that of LSD, psiloc[yb]ian mushrooms, cannabis, ketamine, dextromethorphan, and MDMA.
---
> it is estimated that a half-million
> Bwiti in Gabon have taken it in
> large doses initiation.
---
"... is not surprising that the death of initiates is commented upon in all cults. And even more deaths would be experienced if the initiates were not occasionally allowed to move around and evacuate! In mid-course they are sometimes taken to a stream to be ritually cleansed. In the last forty years there have been perhaps a dozen cases of murder or manslaughter brought against Bwiti cult leaders who lost initiates through overdosage."
---
(Fernandez, [i]Tabernanthe Iboga: Narcotic Ecstasis and the Work of the Ancestors, p. 248 of Flesh of the Gods: The Ritual Use of Hallucinogens; the entire selection is found in pp. 237-60)
---
Interestingly enough, the same selection contains the results of a survey that the author conducted among eboka initiates in which 23% reported experiencing "nothing out of the ordinary." (ibid., p. 251)
---
> Perhaps a handful of people die from
> taking it
---
Combining the six or so known deaths in clinical situations with the "perhaps...dozen" cases of murder brought against Bwiti cult leaders in the earlier part of this century, there are a total of around 18 or so known ibogaine deaths. Assuming that a million people have used it within the same time period (the half million you cited, plus another half million for generosity's sake), this gives a chance of better than 1 in every 56,000 exposures of death subsequent to ingestion of initiatory doses of ibogaine (smaller, merely stimulant doses appear to have far lower toxicity). This is not represented by me as a definitive calculation - for all I know, there are scores more of unreported ibogaine deaths, and the numbers of persons using initiatory doses may be lower or higher. However, preliminarily speaking, it would appear that, as used for initiations or addiction treatment, ibogaine is far more toxic than MDMA - a drug that, in itself, poses some worrisome toxicity issues.
---
> but people die everyday from all sorts
> of substances - including alcohol
> poisoning
---
The difference here is that people aren't going around claiming that alcohol poisoning has specifically beneficial effects for heroin addicts.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[ September 19, 2003, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Walkaway ]

[Magnus_Grey]

Wow I did not realise how dangerous ibogane was. I wish Daniel's book had references like that. You must be a scientist walkaway, since you seem to be the smartest drug user I have ever talked to. Daniel, if you have a stronger evidance to support your reasons for calling ibogane safe, I would love to hear them. I appreciate all opionions on this matter, even the questionable material. Thanks again everyone.

[sidecross]

Nothing is safe.

If you or anyone who has been addicted to heroin is off it for six months, then you are on the path to face each day as a new challenge. To trade a heroin addiction for an addiction to heroin addiction therapy seems a bit neurotic at best.

I am sorry to be so blunt, but join the club of those of us who face each day as a challenge not to do a wide choice of destructive behavior.

[Magnus_Grey]

Nothing is safe.

::heroin is off it for six months, then you are on the path to face each day as a new challenge. ::

I agree completely.

::To trade a heroin addiction for an addiction to >>heroin addiction therapy seems a bit neurotic at best. ::

This is why I am not in NA.

::I am sorry to be so blunt, but join the club of those of us who face each day as a challenge not to do a wide choice of destructive behavior. ::

Ok, but from everything I can tell Daniel advised me to take a toxic stimulant, who's effects as a treatment for addiction are mirrored or surpassed by physically safer psychedelics such as LSD and DXM, which daniel has never even heard of. Now, if Daniel has a convincing argument on why ibogane is either safer than Walkaway claims, or is more effective in any way at all in helping my problem, I am completely open to it. As it stands I fell a little used, how will you feel if even one person dies following your bad advice Daniel. Please prove WalkAway wrong, or I'm afraid I've lost all respect for your opionion, both reasoned and subjective. Oh well, It's not as bad as NA I guess, and I supose his heart is in the right place. No hard feelings.

[ September 20, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Magnus_Grey ]

[PeoplesMind]

Wow, i am confused.

I thought Ibogaine was safe. I guess i was wrong, jeez Daniel thanks for hyping iboga up and "failing to mention" the truth behind our saftey.

Peyote is a more suitable (as far as safty is concerned) substitute for Iboga, without the high toxicity. There has been some mention made in the literature of the pharmacological addiction-blocking effect of peyote.

In a 1977 article in Clinical Toxicology, Dr. Kenneth Blum lays out a possible rationale for the addiction-blocking qualities of peyote. And perhaps the effects that Walkaway said, dxm, could have some anti-addictive effects (since some of the receptor sites... wow what a thing to notice!)

Magnus, perhaps you should try Peyote for it's antiaddictive properties.

peace,
Nitin

[Magnus_Grey]

Hrm is peyote safer than DXM?

[Magnus_Grey]

Where did Daniel go? Does anyone know if he had a conference this weekend ?

[daniel]

What bullshit, Magnus. I don't advise you to take a "toxic stimulant". I don't advise anyone to do anything. I took iboga twice, and found it very valuable. I do not pretend to be a scientist or an expert on toxicity. I continually tell everyone to make up their own minds for themselves getting all the info they can.

Everyone, every source of info, is a distorted lens in some way or other. There is no truth except the one you make.

[sidecross]

Breaking Open the Head is not guaranteed, does not come with a return policy, and like our universe, it is not, nor ever has it been, safe. *

If "safe" is a prerequisite you are in wrong place.

*The Universe has never been a safe place. Our sun alone consumes 200 million tons of hydrogen per second; that is definitely not a safe place, but without it we would not even exist.

[Magnus_Grey]

No need to be nasty, daniel. Thanks to everyone who responded, I think I can research the rest myself.

[Hey Now]

Very interesting, this ibogane.

My girlfriend in finding it difficult to stop using Meth. She was severally abused as a child and has a very low level of self esteem.

Does ibogane work for Meth users??

Take your time in answering, and thanks.

[JCCamp007]

I just saw a friend this morning who is undergoing a similar problem.
My advice to him was to get your dr to prescribe some ritalin or similar product to your girlfriend.
The harm that street drugs cause are much worse than a temporary addiction to ritalin or perhaps Cylert or pharmaceutical amphetamine .
I use it for adult attention disorder and depression.

Dr John D. Son,MD,ND,NMD,psychiatrist.

[silentwolf]

The plants don't "fix" you just by you taking them...they help you to find an alternative perspective, to see something other than what you saw that led you into a deep dependency on whatever it is you're dependent on.

More important than the plant itself is the ritual atmosphere of the consumption...and yeah, peyote, san pedro, and p. cubensis are by far more physically safe than the ayahuasca potions or iboga. Keep in mind that you can get the same perspective shift from tobacco or ganja, though.

As far as "Breaking Open the Head" goes, it's not a guide. It's a story book about some of Daniel's adventures and perspectives, written to share his beliefs and pay the rent. Anybody who picks up and tries to do what he did without any research on the topics and the areas way beyond what BOtH presents is foolish.

[daniel]

As for ibogaine and Meth, I can't say for sure. The two programs I knew outside of the US that were administering ibogaine for addiction seem to have closed, at least temporarily. I think only Deborah Mash's organization in St Kitt's is still going - you might "google" her, and send her an email about your friend's condition. Unfortunately, her treatment is very expensive - but it would still be interesting to hear her experiences and advice on Meth and ibogaine.

Two other psychedelic substances, used sacramentally, seem to have anti-addictive effects - peyote and ayahuasca. Many people have ended addictive behaviors of various sorts through working with the Native American Church and the Santo Daime or Unaio de Vegetales. Depending on where you live, you might be able to find people working in these areas - though of course they are still under legal strictures. I can't help you with that research - you would have to ask around.

My own feeling is that addiction generally has a spiritual cause or component, and addicts are often people who have a natural (shamanic) dispensation towards altered states, but because of the toxic nature of our culture, they end up exploring them negatively rather than positively. Therefore, working with a benevolent plant teacher might be a way to overcome certain addictive patterns.

[Humming]

"Combining the six or so known deaths in clinical situations with the "perhaps...dozen" cases of murder brought against Bwiti cult leaders in the earlier part of this century, there are a total of around 18 or so known ibogaine deaths. Assuming that a million people have used it within the same time period (the half million you cited, plus another half million for generosity's sake), this gives a chance of better than 1 in every 56,000 exposures of death subsequent to ingestion of initiatory doses of ibogaine (smaller, merely stimulant doses appear to have far lower toxicity). This is not represented by me as a definitive calculation - for all I know, there are scores more of unreported ibogaine deaths, and the numbers of persons using initiatory doses may be lower or higher. However, preliminarily speaking, it would appear that, as used for initiations or addiction treatment, ibogaine is far more toxic than MDMA - a drug that, in itself, poses some worrisome toxicity issues."

Far more people die every year from pharmaceutical drugs each year than all the illicit drugs combined.

Nicotine is known to be responsible for half a million deaths per year in the U.S. alone.

And Ibogaine is supposed to be a dangerous drug?

If it sometimes kills people, perhaps that is an aspect of the experience. Automobiles also kill people, and cancer, and government military raids.

You've got to take your chances to be willing to experience some of the opportunities you have in this mortal life.

[Charlie]

Hey Now:

Judging from what you wrote, it seems to me that your girlfriend is suffering more from mental health issues rather than the physical symptoms of drug addiction. Although (from what I've read) Ibogaine tripping can offer insights into the spiritual root of one's problems, I think weekly sessions with an insightful therapist would yield better results.

As far as the physical aspect goes, ibogaine might be temporarily effective; however, she would probably fall back into drug use until the issues from her past are faced, dealt with, and put to rest.

[Shamaness]

Originally posted by Magnus_Grey:

It is safe to take ibogane? /Aloha Magnus and All ...

Last Thanksgiving I went to a medical treatment center across the border in Tijuana where a medical doctor takes blood tests, does lab work, weighs each patient, administers ibogaine doses very carefully, puts you on a heart monitor during the long (20+ hours) trip while clinical staff observe and hover nearby.

Under these conditions, it is not dangerous.

I am not a heroin or meth addict, but having an addictive (actually, avoidance-based) personality, I chose to try it for shamanic reasons. Expensive? You betcha! Was it worth it? Not sure. I was curious, so it satisfied my curiousity. Check that off my list, you could say. A heroin user was at the clinic who said it helped her stay clean for one year. She was there for another dose as the recent death of her parent and break-up of her engagement had pushed her over the edge again and she was using for the last month. She was in a dark place and wanted to come back out into the sunlight.

Indeed, it is hard being human on the planet in this age. The raging surf of energetic changes threaten to drown those who haven't made a commitment to expansion. The default is contraction, suffering, anihiliation. Passing through the pinhole gateway is the ultimate surrender of what we think of as the "I".

I see the challenge: erasing all self-destructive programming from our internal operating system, is not eased until we make a deep commitment --- from the core of our being --- to live the remainder of this life in planetary service and to align with Mother Gaia. Then Grace kicks in. Then we ride atop the Wave in the state of easy, effortless, fun, flowing fluidity. Staying calibrated to this state then becomes our new addiction.

How to stay calibrated? Service to others with the whole of our being, our whole heart and mind and talent and creativity. And then we are wholly served (supported) in return. This is a white-hot fire walk into higher frequency, demanding total purification. The payoff: interdimensional non-linear awareness, and intermittent bliss. I like this path much better than the ego's addiction to suffering and destruction.

I have found TREMENDOUS assistance in holding a high frequency in consciousness --- up from all kinds of self-destructive and addictive energetics --- from copious daily (sometimes even hourly) use of Amazon Herbs. Please contact me privately if you want info on this. They are a lot more affordable and safer than iboga, and although not in the same category as a hallucinogen, they "feed" the constant hunger of the addictive personality with the energetics of the Amazon, and create that co-resonant tie with the heartbeat of the our Earth Mother that we crave. So, something to know about, and something that can be taken daily.

I think ALL conscious people should be using them --- especially if you are interested in catching the Wave to higher frequency / higher dimensional living in the next 5 years. For me, these herbs remove the struggle --- and this is what I've been looking for so many years --- and so I wholeheartedly want to spread the word to fellow lightbeings / high conscious brothers and sistahs.

In our ONENESS,
Shamaness

[Thom]

Shamaness,

Great post I thought. You wrote, "I have found TREMENDOUS assistance in holding a high frequency in consciousness --- up from all kinds of self-destructive and addictive energetics --- from copious daily (sometimes even hourly) use of Amazon Herbs."

If you're still around I'd love to hear more about your use of Amazon herbs. I'm waiting to start a new job, its going to be a month, and have been smoking a lot of marijuana all day and surfing the web, which is nice, but addictive without a doubt. Washing the dishes is more fun stoned, especially when listening to Super Furry Animals mp3s.

[Dna]

Love this:
is not eased until we make a deep commitment --- from the core of our being --- to live the remainder of this life in planetary service and to align with Mother Gaia. Then Grace kicks in. Great post Shamaness, I take those words to heart.

Dna.

[postmodernennui]

Here is a long article from the San Diego CityBeat paper on ibogaine. Safety issues as well as the fact that ibogaine is not a "magic bullet" are adressed.

http://www.sdcitybeat.com/article.php?id=4102

I would copy and paste it but it is quite long.

[Led_Zeppelin]

I suffer from anxiety and depression. I have been using Xanax (30 pills over one year period). I find it a short lived treatment without getting to the root of the problem. I went to see a doctor for a refill on my prescription. Instead of helping me and directing me to a therapist, he got low voiced and recommended "Jesus Christ". He even asked me to get down on my knees in the examination room (door closed) and accept him as my Lord and savior right there and then. I could feel an anxiety attack coming on right there and then... the fucker. He said it was Ok to cry. I told him that I couldn't at the time (because I believe 99.9% of religion is a crock of shit). But, I told him that I would later that week... I lied. I'm not looking for Jesus or any other imaginary man in the sky to help me. Does anyone know if Salvia or Ibogaine are good for constant anxiety. Right now I'm using high doses of alcohol to get me through the rough patches.

BTW, Daniel. I read your book 3 times. I LOVE IT. I even bought a second copy for my nephew to read. Is there anyway I can get you to autograph it? Any comments on my plea for guidance? Thanks in advance.

[wallace]

Shortly I will be doing iboga for spiritual reasons and for my physical health. It seems it does help fatigue which is of interest to myself. Thanks to daniel for writing about this important plant teacher. This is from ibogaine.org

Wallace

[wallace]

Pharmacodynamics and Therapeutic Applications of Iboga and Ibogaine

By Robert Goutarel, Honorary Research Director;
Otto Gollnhofer and Roger Sillans, Ethnologists, C.N.R.S.
(French National Scientific Research Center)

(Translated from French by William J. Gladstone)





Psychedelic Monographs and Essays, Volume 6:70-111, 1993


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Table of Contents
Abstract

Note on the structure of ibogaine

History (1864-1905)

Therapeutic applications

Pharmacodynamics (1939-1950)

Therapeutic application: Lambarène, 1939-1970

Pharmacodynamics (1950s-1970s)

1970s-1990

The Gabonese rituals of iboga: Bwiti of the Mitsogho

Bwiti of the Fang

Ibogaine in psychotherapy: psychoanalysis according to Naranjo

Ibogaine for combatting drug dependencies according to Howard Lotsof

Conclusions

Near Death Experiences

Interviews with young Frenchmen

Bibliography

Robert Goutarel (bio)


Abstract
Tabernanthe iboga H.Bn. is an apocynaceous shrub from Equatorial Africa whose roots are used in Gabon at low doses as a stimulant and at high doses during the ceremony for admission into the Gabonese initiation society, the Bwiti. Four periods are described: the first three relate to the pharmacodynamic studies conducted in France (1864-1905; and 1940-1950) and subsequently in the U.S.A., essentially Ciba's work (1950-1970). The low acute and chronic toxicity of ibogaine is established (Dhahir, 1971). Ibogaine inhibits the oxidation of serotonin and catalyzes that of catecholamines by a MAO (monoamine oxidase), ceruloplasmin (Barrass and Coult, 1972).Ibogaine is a type of hallucinogen (oneirophrenic) at high doses.
The present period began around 1960 and covers the applications of ibogaine in psychotherapy and psychoanalysis according to Naranjo (1960) and in combatting drug dependency according to Howard S. Lotsof. The role of iboga in Bwiti initiation ceremonies was studied by ethnologists in Gabon. The intoxication by iboga (chewing) is slow and progressive and is characterized by four stages of oneiric manifestations. The first three stages are essentially Freudian; the fourth one, called the stage of normative visions, corresponds to the collective image of the tribe, visions of the beyond and of spiritual entities, Masters of the Universe. The initiate will see the Bwiti only twice during his life, on the day of his initiation and on the day of his death, which means that the normative visions have some similarities to the near death experience (NDE). The psychotherapeutic method of Naranjo involves only the Freudian stages produced by subtoxic doses of ibogaine, while H.S. Lotsof goes beyond that stage to reach another one comparable to the normative visions or NDE, bringing about the cure of addicts.

Based on recent "neuroscientific" evidence concerning the mode of action of ibogaine, the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) has added ibogaine to the list of drugs whose activity in the treatment of drug dependency is to be evaluated. Ibogaine blocks the morphine- and cocaine-induced stimulation of mesolimbic and striatal dopamine and reduces the intravenous self-administration of morphine in rats. Return to table of contents



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Note on the structure of ibogaine
Chemical investigations for the purpose of establishing the structural formula of ibogaine were undertaken by two groups: a Swiss group headed by Professor E. Schlittler (Organisch chemische Anstalt der Universität Basel), and a French-Swiss research group including Professor V. Prelog, Nobel laureate in chemistry (Zürich Federal Polytechnic School), Professor M.M. Janot (School of Pharmacy, Paris), and R. Goutarel.

The discovery of ibogamine, a nonoxygenated alkaloid, the basis of the other iboga alkaloids, was published jointly by C.A. Burckhardt, R. Goutarel, M.M Janot and E. Schlittler (Helv. chim. Acta, 35, 1952, p. 642).8

Using the alkaline fusion of ibogaine, Schlittler's group isolated 1,2-dimethyl-3-ethyl-5-hydroxyindole (Schlittler, E., Burckhard, C.A., Gellert, E., Die Kalischmelze des Alkaloides Ibogain, Helv. chim. Acta, 36, 1337, 1953)50, while the French-Swiss group (Structure de l'ibogaïne, R. Goutarel, M.M. Janot, F. Mathys and V. Prelog, C.R. Acad. Sci., 237, 1953, p. 1718)26 characterized 3-methyl-5-ethylpyridine.

The combination of these results led R. Goutarel to propose, in 195425, a formula that included all the elements of the structure of ibogaine; the definitive structure necessarily had to include a fifth ring formed by a bond between the C-17 or a carbon atom from the ethyl chain and another carbon atom of this molecule (most likely C-16).

The definitive structural formula was established by W.I. Taylor (Bartlett, M. et al., 1958)3 in which ibogaine has an ethyl chain, following the study of the seleniated dehydrogenation products of this alkaloid.

W.I. Taylor had belonged to the French-Swiss group before he joined Prof. Schlittler's staff at Ciba Laboratory in Summit, New Jersey, and contributed in particular to the study of cinchonamine and quinamine (R. Goutarel, M.M. Janot, V. Prelog and W.I. Taylor, Helv. chim. Acta, 33, 1950, p. 150, 164).27


"Clinical research, the one which is directly concerned with human illness, will be the bearer of great hopes." *

*Philippe Lazar, Director General of INSERM (French National Institute of Health and Medical Research), Madame Figaro, No. 14110, 88 (1990) Return to table of contents


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History (1864-1905)
The pharmacodynamic and clinical research on iboga and ibogaine may be divided into four periods.


Henri Baillon, who established the genus Tabernanthe H.Bn. at the Muséum d'Histoire Naturelle in Paris in 1889, and described under the name of Tabernanthe iboga H.Bn. the sample*brought back from Gabon in 1864 by Dr. Griffon du Bellay, a navy surgeon, wrote: "The root of this plant is the part that the Gabonese eat. They say that it is inebriating, aphrodisiac, and, with it, they claim that they feel no need for sleep".1 However, as early as 1885, Father Henri Neu had written in a manuscript entitled "Le Gabon" (Neu 1885)42:
"Most Europeans (living in Gabon) have heard about this plant, used in fetishistic ceremonies. The natives use an infusion of iboga root scrapings as a potent philter that enables one to discover hidden things and to tell the future. The one who drinks it falls into a deep sleep during which he is obsessed by uninterrupted dreams which, until the time that he awakens, he takes to be actual events..."
At the beginning of this century, Dybowsky and Landrin (1901)17 isolated a crystallized alkaloid from the iboga roots and named it ibogaine.
*This sample, along with the roots, was displayed at the Paris Exposition in 1867, and had been reported earlier by Aubry-Lecomte ("Note sur quelques poisons de la côte occidentale de l'Afrique, Archives de Médecine navale, 2, 1864, p. 264-265). It was then given to the Paris Muséum d'Histoire Naturelle. Return to table of contents



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Therapeutic applications

The first step in the pharmacodynamic studies began when Phisalix (1901)43 showed that, in the dog, this alkaloid acts principally on the CNS and produces inebriation similar to alcoholic drunkenness (though this would be contradicted later).

This was the period of studies by the French pharmacologists, Lambert, (1901)30, (1902) 31 Heckel, (1901)28 and Pouchet, (1905).44

The results were that ibogaine, used clinically, was recommended as a stimulant in cardiac "atony" and neurasthenia by Pouchet and Chevalier (1905). 44

This period ended in 1905 with the thesis for a medical degree, "De l'Iboga et de l'ibogaïne" (de Closmenil 1905)9, defended in Paris by Mme de Closmenil, the daughter of Landrin, who advocated the use of ibogaine hydrochloride at doses of 10-30 mg/day in convalescence, neurasthenia and asthenia.

Thus, it was the "antifatigue" properties of ibogaine that particularly attracted the attention of investigators of this period, and another 40 years were to pass before the study of this alkaloid was resumed. Return to table of contents


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Pharmacodynamics (1939-1950)
In 1941, Raymond-Hamet 48 published a paper entitled "L'iboga, drogue défatigante mal connue" (Iboga, a poorly known antifatigue drug), in which he showed that ibogaine increases the responsiveness of animals to epinephrine and puts the organism in a state of hypersympathicotonus, and he would later refer to it as a "sympathicosthenic" agent, in contrast to yohimbines which, according to him, were "sympathicolytics".


During the same period, Delourme-Houdé prepared a remarkable thesis for a doctorate of pharmacy which he defended after the war was over in France in 1944. In this thesis, he discussed the botany, chemistry, and pharmacodynamics of iboga. He also isolated a new alkaloid which he named tabernanthine (Delourme-Houdé, 1944).13


Delourme-Houdé determined the LD50 of ibogaine in the guinea pig intraperitoneally to be 82 mg/kg.


In 1941, Raymond-Hamet had demonstrated the "sympathicosthenic" activity of ibogaine and the fact that this alkaloid suppressed the hypertensive effects produced by carotid occlusion, that it increases tyramine-induced hypertension, and he further demonstrated its own hypotensive action, confirmed by Miss Séro (1944)55. He showed that ibogaine acts as a true antagonist of "sympatholytics" (Raymond-Hamet 1939-1946). 47


Vincent and Miss Séro, of Montpellier, demonstrated the inhibitory action of iboga on serum cholinesterase (Vincent, D. and Séro, I. 1942).56


Previously, in 1939, Wurman (1939)57. had published a Doctorate of Medicine thesis in Paris, entitled "Contribution à l'étude expérimentale et thérapeutique d'un extrait de T. manii (syn. T. Subsessilis), d'origine gabonaise" (Contribution to the experimental and therapeutic study of an extract of T. manii [syn. T. subsessilis] from Gabon).


This extract reportedly contained about 6% total alkaloids including 4% ibogaine, as determined by the assays of Raymond-Hamet.


According to Wurman, this extract stimulates hematopoiesis in the mouse and has a hypotensive action. Return to table of contents



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Therapeutic application: Lambarène, 1939-1970


It was during this period, in 1939, that a proprietary pharmaceutical preparation called Lambarène in honor of Dr. Schweitzer, was first marketed in France: it was based on a dry pharmaceutical extract of roots of Tabernanthe manii, with a drug content of 0.20 g of extract per tablet (about 8 mg of ibogaine), whose therapeutic action, dosage regimen and effects were, according to package information, as follows: "a neuromuscular stimulant, promoting cell combustions and getting rid of fatigue, indicated in cases of depression, asthenia, in convalescence, infectious diseases, greater than normal physical or mental efforts by healthy individuals. 2-4 Tablets daily. Rapid and prolonged action, not followed by depression. May be administered to hypertensives."

The fact that it was recommended for physical or mental efforts by healthy individuals rapidly aroused the interest of post-war athletes (Paris-Strasbourg walking race competitors, mountain climbers, cyclists, cross-country runners, etc.).

Haroun Tazieff, elebrated French geologist and volcanologist, Honorary Research Director at the C.N.R.S. gave the following description of his experience with Lambarène in his book, "Le gouffre de la Pierre Saint-Martin" (Arnaud publ.).

"Go ahead", said André (the expedition's doctor), "it will give
you strength. And also swallow this, he added as he handed me a tablet.

Do you think we should already be taking this? Shouldn't we
save it until we are completely exhausted?"

It was Lambarène, a stimulant, a "doping" agent which was supposed
to enable us to find the necessary strength in our exhausted bodies.

"No, go ahead, what we have to do is to prevent fatigue. Later
on, we'll be taking some more, regularly..."

We had just swallowed our third tablet of Lambarène, and we
could feel a tonic effect.

I hastened, "doped up" on Lambarène, and jumped from one
boulder to the next with renewed agility...

Despite the Lambarène, I was really beginning to feel worn out
and had trouble scaling the huge boulders which we immediately
had to descend to start on the next one, while insidious cramps
crept along the anterior portions of my thighs.

I was hoping they wouldn't get worse...

I took another Lambarène. While André climbed up the ladder,
I massaged my legs. Within ten minutes, everything was in order
and in turn I climbed up without any difficulty...

In spite of the fact that I had swallowed a Lambarène, I really
didn't feel talkative at all. Time flowed on, like a stream. One
hour passed, and so did the effect of the Lambarène..."

And, on this last day, this frenzied race toward our discovery,
these six hours of descent and climbing sustained by Lambarène,
this day on top of all others, it was terrible...

Only the stimulant enabled us to keep going. When the effect
of the last tablet had passed and I had no more, I was nothing but
a pitiful package of meat miserably dangling at the end of a wire"

Lambarène disappeared from the market around 1966 and the sale of ibogaine was prohibited.
Since 1989, this alkaloid has been on the list of doping substances banned by the International Olympic Committee, the International Union of Cyclists and the French State Secretariat for Youth and Sports. Return to table of contents


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Pharmacodynamics (1950s-1970s)

[simonbubly]

[QUOTE=danielpinchbeck;

My own feeling is that addiction generally has a spiritual cause or component, and addicts are often people who have a natural (shamanic) dispensation towards altered states, but because of the toxic nature of our culture, they end up exploring them negatively rather than positively. Therefore, working with a benevolent plant teacher might be a way to overcome certain addictive patterns.[/QUOTE]

i never thought of it that way, interesting perspective. :) thanks for the books, my name is Chris i am new here and look forward to sharing thoughts/ insights of my own.

[wallace]

I am just beginning to read Amazing Grace www.myeboga.com. Anyone here read it?

From pagexx1v (iboga)"is a journey of the heart and there you will find everything you need to know. what counts is that your heart is renewed, healed and in harmony with the one, the all."

"Eboga is the most sacred substance known man..it is a sacred sacrement for mans benefit on his path to self and union with all.

Everyone who has tried iboga has reccommended it to me. Though some of the Aya community dont wish to try it for whatever reason.

Wallace