Singing new plants into existance [Archive]

daniel

03-25-2005, 06:22 AM

i don't have too much info on this. I heard it from my translator/guides, reporting what the Secoya had told them.

I doubt they have a fully conscious understanding of how it happens... they are still in "original participation" as Owen Barfeld describes it.

i would say they work with the local elemental spirits, and somehow transduce genetic material through the noosphere, but i doubt we would ever find any particularly scientific way of understanding it... just like the snake pen i pulled out of the tree, once consciousness goes beyond a certain stage, magic and technology are inseparable, those other beings can do what they want in this spacetime matrix, but have to be properly beseeched and invoked and invited into the game. As a Taoist proverb has it, "Supreme sincerity evokes resonance."

silentwolf

03-25-2005, 06:33 AM

Interesting. I'll have to ponder that for a while.

Woodpecker

03-25-2005, 12:43 PM

Cesario never talked to me about that, but to Jonathon, yes. From what I've read in C's brother-in-law's autobiography, it's a matter of traveling to another plane and bringing something back from there. This kind of miracle is attribued to powerful shamans among the Secoyas. It's not about singing anything into existence, but in receiving something from spirits. Other objects beside plants include flutes, birdbone whistles, and nice seeds to make necklaces out of.

C said his grandfather Jose told him a story that when Jose was a kid, he was at a ceremony where they drank all night and then went out in the morning and looked at the sky. After a while a small spot appeared. It grew larger and larger. It was a big turtle. When it got low enough, they butchered it and had it for breakfast.

daniel

03-25-2005, 03:27 PM

woodpecker,

so it really just sounds as if ayahuasca simply acts as a potentiating conduit for out-and-out miracles. If you have more stories or info on this I would like to hear it.

this really opens so many more questions in my mind, it is almost mind-boggling.

i have had several experiences lately, of which the snake pen was a notable one, of something happening that is completely an insertion from some other plane - like a prop falling through the stage set of our matrix. It really seems like the level of teasing communications is really being stepped up a huge notch right now. I wonder if anyone else is finding this?

forget about earth quakes and tsunamis, this is far more fascinating.

who would even bother to act in this way? What I am thinking is, what can we infer about the ways of being of that alternative form of consciousness that is doing such things? You could say there is a sense of humor to it - but that is almost imposing our own mindset on the experiences. I have mulled a lot on Gurdjieff's notion that humor doesn't really exist in the higher centers - if you think of the Bergson notion of humor, which has to do with the mechanical nature of human reactions, then beings who were no longer mechanical in that way would not need our form of humor. And yet I can't help but feel there is a great wit to it, so perhaps Gurdjieff is wrong.

Is it a consciousness just like our own, but coming back at us from some future evolutionary level (Aurobindo's supermind), or is it an alternative kind of consciousness?

my few experiences with elemental beings, fairies, etc., i have had the strange sense of their vast age yet simultaneously a childlike quality.

tlacticpac, the dreamworld of earth for the maya, seems to be becoming increasingly dreamlike.

gone

03-25-2005, 03:36 PM

This made me think of that scene from Wings of Desire where the armour drops from the sky with the fallen angel.

Woodpecker

03-25-2005, 04:59 PM

Just a personal experience. And I'm sure others have had experiences like it.

Before I went in '94, a former student of mine gave me a 2" diameter wooden button with a braided string tied to it. Because the string looked like an umbilicus, she called it the Belly Button.

At Cesario's during a ceremony, I was looking at all my ritual gear in the light of the kerosene lamp. The necklaces with their gleaming beads in particular seemed very intelligent. I put the button on my belly. I was wearing a tunic at the time.

At dawn I gathered up my things and put them away, except the button. The button was gone. I looked everywhere for it, including under the house. I concluded that it must have somehow slipped through a crack and fallen to the ground, where a chicken walked off with it.

Two mornings later I awoke under my mosquito net, lying face-down on a thin foam mat. I turned over and there was the button, lying on the mat where my belly had just been. That really made me think.

Yeah, there is definitely humor in the spirit realm, and lots of it.

Woodpecker

03-25-2005, 10:35 PM

Here's a passage from Fernando Payaguaje's autobiography, El bebedor de yaje. Note: yoco is a drink made of a cafeinated vine. Wpkr.

In ancient times the Secoya groups lived around the mouth of the Aguarico, on the Napo. In those days there were no Mestizos. My family lived there, a group with great shamans, healers who knew the animals. My family drank a lot of of yage.

One day the head of the family observed that his daughter was making a necklace with nuts from the forest. He said to her,

“Wait, don’t do that, I’m going to get you some good ones. Those ones are worthless.”

He went and bathed, then drank his yoco while sitting on his stool of pambil wood. He began to transform himself into a wild pig, a huangana. He imitated the grunts too. Suddenly he was holding a branch laden with nuts. Because there were others present, he distributed five nuts each to his close relatives and three each to the more distant ones. To his daughter he gave enough to make a necklace. Those are nuts that humans don’t know about. Only the wild pigs can get them.

The man who did that was a relative of mine who lived at the mouth of the Aguarico. His younger brothers were also healers. The women of the group, too, had visions and knew how to heal. From the mouth of the Aguarico, the Secoyas extended all along the Napo to Limoncocha.

We had all kinds of plantations: chonta, yuca, corn, sugarcane, plantain, and other edible fruits. We had dogs that hunted tapir, and the tapirs were fat because they weren’t from this earth. The healer summoned them when he drank yage.

On one occasion the shaman summoned a tapir in his yage visions. When the ceremony was over, the family went out to look for it. Five hundred meters from the house, a dog picked up the trail. The tapir went into a stream and they killed it. They went back to advise the shaman and the whole family went out to look at it. The tapir had achiote on his forehead because when the healer had called it in his vision, he himself was painted that way, and it had passed in front of him. They cleaned it and butchered it, giving the shaman the fattest and best piece because he had summoned it.

I saw all that when I was a child. I remember something else that happened as I kept my father company drinking yage. I was next to him in his hammock when he began to drink. He drank and drank. At dawn he transformed himself into a tapir. I saw him eating leaves and also whistling like those animals, like a high, fine flute. I was there, watching. Later the tapir vanished. My father did things like that.

Gift Horse

03-26-2005, 03:39 AM

Fascinating stories, Woodpecker.
I've enjoyed ayahuasca tremendously and don't seem to tire hearing about it.

Daniel you said; have had several experiences lately, of which the snake pen was a notable one, of something happening that is completely an insertion from some other plane - like a prop falling through the stage set of our matrix. It really seems like the level of teasing communications is really being stepped up a huge notch right now. I wonder if anyone else is finding this?
The last 3 times I went for a coffee at Starbucks a friend has offered to pay, including the cashier one time. The 4th time I went with my daughter and said I wonder how the universe will pay for our hot chocolates this time. (She was with me the time the cashier offered to pay for both of ours)
After we got our chocolates, I went to the bathroom in The Chapters side of the store and there was a 5 dollar bill on the bookshelf next to the door. I picked it up and looked around for a possible owner. There was no one there!
Of course, I thanked the universe and pocketed the money.

Woodpecker

03-26-2005, 05:10 AM

Ian Winn, another alumnus of Burning Man, wrote a book called Techno Pagan Octopus Messiah. In there, at the beginning, he describes dreams or visions of finding a chunk of blue crystal on the Great Pyramid of Cheops... so he goes there and really finds one. The implication is that it's a true story, and got him into the real "spiritual quest" mode. It's a fun book, blending travel, poetry, wit, and dimethyltryptamine.

Here are two more of Fernando's stories about materialization, since they're going down well. Wpkr.

1. False shamans

In the old days there were false healers who believed themselves very wise, and proud ones who boasted of visions they hadn’t had. The authentic shamans would put these people to a test: they would brew yage and offer it to them all night to see if they lost control. If that happened, they would be caught in the lie, because a true graduate can drink yage continuously and sing from dusk till dawn. Those false shamans used to bring bamboo flutes from their houses. They’d hide them under the stools where they sat in the yage house and during the ceremony they’d pretend to catch them out of the air, receiving them from a vision; then they’d play them. In those days there were many drinkers, but very few reached the highest level.

2. Family of drinkers

I lay down in the hammock and everything began to gleam, like on a cloudless day. Next the visions came, and then they passed. This happened in the yage house, which was a bit removed. I returned home from there and fell into my hammock. My uncle Sebastian came by and said, “I can’t stay to chat, you’re still intoxicated.”

Later on my uncle Saulerio dropped in and sat with me in the same hammock. He told me about some work he was doing, although I didn’t respond, still feeling the intoxication.

Finally, he said, “I’m leaving.”

At nightfall, lying in the hammock, I felt a noise like that of someone falling in the river. Shortly afterwards I heard the communication of angels and understood what it was saying:

“A strong wind is going to come over this area.”

That’s what happened. Without getting up, I felt the hurricane. I saw trees falling around the house. Later the storm passed. At dawn I contemplated the fallen trees until my uncle asked:

“We had a hurricane last night. Did you see all those trees falling down?”

“Yes.” But I didn’t tell him what I had heard.

I got up and went to see Mauricio Levi. He said,

“What have you been drinking now? Did you get drunk on strong yage?”

“No, nothing like that. I just had a little.”

“I’ll give you the cloth to pay you for your work.”

He gave me some for me and my wife. Only the next day was I able to go to where my family was. My mother was intoxicated in her hammock, having drunk yage; other relatives had the same look about them.

“Why didn’t you arrive on time?” my father asked. “You could have drunk with us. We were able to see very beautifully. Your mother even played flutes with the bones of a bird that appeared to her, blowing through those wing bones so beautifully: pi, pi, piró....”

slippers

03-26-2005, 05:56 AM

Oh Woodpecker, that's what I'm talking about! This and Whitewave's poem--what's coming over us? The Divine Spirit?

Agent Smith

03-26-2005, 10:09 AM

this is very interesting stuffs...

...as for 'materializing' things goes. i think that there can be a science to it... but it becomes a bit like poetry, or jazz... (i've seen some absolutely amazing things from taiji masters in some 'underground' private demonstrations that defy physics, not exactly 'manifestation', but very 'magical', and quite 'scientific' --i know alot of how some of them were doing it--, even if it looked more like a miles davis, or charlie parker performance, with physics... things you can't quite credit, espcially when you're on the recieving end.)

i have read, and heard enough to believe that the maya, and other central/south american civilizations had a very deep ecological science, that makes our current understandings of things like 'permaculture', and 'biodynamics' look like checkers... there's a growing school of thought that says that the amazon itself is probably a human artifact, a human created, and managed 'game preserve'/medicinal garden, on a scale that can hardly be credited by standard western thinking... i have had more than one hippy tell me that they believe that the mesoamericans possessed the knowlege to encode their science, and civilization in the dna of plants like ayahuasca to be accessed by the initiated... i thought i find intriguing...(of course considering the flea infested sources, i must question whether or not this idea came from a book like 'things my pet machine elf told me'... sorry. please if this theory has actually been stated in print, someone could relieve my ignorance, and point me in the right direction.)

and other planear beings most deffinitly have senses of humor, alot of it quite nasty... if you haven't got direct experience with this, think about all the 'trickster' stories... beings goofing on us humans pretending to be 'higher plane' entities are obviously spoofing our expectations that in order to be more spiritualy evolved one has to act like one has a stick up thier ass... (which is why theosophy is so popular) i think about the Orisha of Santeria, or Loa of Voudon... very powerful, very 'playful'...

...as for 'manifesting' stuff, this is an interesting skill... obviously producing an object that has already existed before is less difficult than bringing a new thing into this world... even if it exists 'elsewhere'...

Sai Baba is notorious for 'manifesting' gold watches, medallions, and such for people. alot of folks think this is simple slieght of hand... i've heard enough conflicting testimony to wonder though... one particularly interesting story i've heard is that he is actually transfering objects that already exist here into his hand... someone reconized a watch he gave away as belonging to someone they knew 100s of miles away, and upon checking it out were told that it was missing, but had been seen earlier that day... ::shurg::

and i'd have to agree reality is softening up...

daniel

03-26-2005, 11:04 AM

there seems to be a kind of mindset for allowing these events to happen - an open curiosity but a profound detachment. As soon as you get attached to the events, they immediately cease.

I went through a brief phase where I became increasingly convinced - without fully admitting the conviction to myself - that "I" or my "higher self" was somehow manifesting reality, and I felt a concomitant elevation of ego-excitement. Various disappointments followed. I then began to understand that it is not "my" consciousness manifesting reality, but "the" consciousness, the unitary consciousness that is the ultimate single "subject" in the subject-object split (Amit Goswami does a good job giving this a scientific footing). This has made me calmer and happier and humbler.

However, it would be interesting to see if one could arrive at a way of being that reliably produced such synchronic manifestations - Sai Baba seems to know how to do it, he is well integrated I suppose with whatever level or field of mind makes it possible (and probably throws in some cheap tricks to increase the level of cognitive dissonance, which seems to be a secret operating principle in these areas). Christ was even better at it, according to The Gospels - not only could he manifest, but his manifestations were much more beautiful and pragmatic than Baba's somewhat tinselly tricks ("holy ash" and such-like).

Buzz

03-27-2005, 06:06 AM

Daniel, I had kind of hoped/assumed this was the kind on technology of the future that you've been talking about.

Didn't Dennis McKenna perform tasks like this when we was stoned out of his gourd in the Amazon?
Terrence wrote about it in one of his books.

Wish i had recorded more of my occult experiences when i was a youth. So many strange things happened, stoned or not. But some things i can recall: We used to listen to psychedelic music alot back in the day with my Louisiana buddies. Music was on albums back then. Albums had scratches, but when tripping the scratches could be avoided by intending them away. My buddy Marc once tapped me on the shoulder when standing 15 feet away. I would spend the day half naked along Thompsons creek in temperatures near 100 degrees F and never got a sunburn (i have fair skin, reddish hair). Along the Little Missouri river in Arkansas, whilst tripping with the Italian Sharks, a fish floated right up from the bottom of the river into my hand. After nightfall i could point to where the UFOs were hiding behind the stars, only to have them scurry out flying across the sky, surprising my friends. These things happened. I'm just an ordinary man. Intent goes a long way.

Woodpecker

03-27-2005, 06:44 AM

And Terence McKenna transformed pot into hash, or it happened by itself; and James and Nora Joyce came back as chickens....

A friend in Ecuador said he attended a peyote ceremony when he was learning how to be a silversmith. At dawn he watched the sun rise, and then continued watching it directly for hours without any damage to his eyes. It appeared alternately orange and silver, exactly like silver when you melt it down with a blowtorch.

daniel

03-27-2005, 06:57 AM

i don't think these types of manifestations could be called a "technology," perhaps a technique. They seem to be caused by some form of sympathetic resonance with the underlying order of the universe. What interests me is how one could turn the occasional eruption of these experiences into something that is more self-willed. If anyone wanted to make a thesis out of this, looking at a number of specific examples and drawing upon their own experiences, it might make a good piece for the first issues of Metacine.

Buzz

03-27-2005, 07:25 AM

Well, I'd like to volunteer Woodpecker for that task. :D
No, seriously, I like the way he writes and he has experience with actual shamen. I think he is better qualified to address the subject.

Buzz

03-27-2005, 07:38 AM

Found this when I did a linguistics search for technology.
technology/technique (http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/MC10220/whattech.html)

gone

03-27-2005, 07:40 AM

I’m surprised Metacine hasn’t heard from Woodpecker yet: I think he has modesty issues :cool:

silentwolf

03-27-2005, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by daniel:
If anyone wanted to make a thesis out of this, looking at a number of specific examples and drawing upon their own experiences, it might make a good piece for the first issues of Metacine.Read the section on Elemental Magic in the manuscript I sent you, Daniel ~ and you probably want to read what I wrote about the Seven Planes of Existence as well.

Woodpecker

03-27-2005, 03:42 PM

Woodpecker feels honored to have his name raised for the project, but wishes to relate that he is a very busy little bird these days, what with grad school and all, pecking the tasty grubs of Linguistics out of old trees in the forest of knowledge. He is also certain that there is no shortage of others who are more capable than he at this kind of thing.

willoweyes

03-29-2005, 04:25 AM

If reality as we know it did start squirming around, what would be our reaction? We as a culture have put this possibility firmly aside (unlike "primitive" peoples who deal with the unexplicable every day). Nothing is allowed to be unexplicable to the modern rational man.

Le Guin's "The Lathe of Heaven" provides a marvellous fictional look at this question.

In my own life, time is doing weird things. I am a dedicated moon watcher, and two months ago, I became convinced that the moon had thrown in a few extra days of utter darkness.

Passover and Easter have always been linked--the Last Supper is a Passover Seder, after all (that's why Easter's date is not "fixed"--it follows a moon calendar). Yet this year they are a month apart. People are uninterested when I question this; "Oh, it must happen sometimes," they say.

And what about Daylight Savings Time? Isn't it supposed to begin the last Sunday in March?

The point of this post is not to posit some strange conspiracy theory--but to mention that our reliance on rationality would blind us to events that do not fit our worldview. In other words, if we can't explain it, it simply didn't happen.

tana

03-29-2005, 07:17 AM

Such spontaneous or self-willed materialization is (for the most part) imperceptible because of our hard core reliance on rationality...is this what you were saying, Willoweyes? Creative manifestation is obviously an accepted part of reality for the shamans!

It seems like this phenomenon is just barely outside our realm of understanding...i'd guess that it probably won't remain so mysterious for much longer. It also seems like it could become a distraction, or an ego-tool, because it is such a tantalizing mystery.

A-la-peanut-butter-sandwiches!

[ March 29, 2005, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: tana ]

Agent Smith

03-29-2005, 07:32 AM

i think there are probably different 'techniques', for the doing of these things.

the useful alignment of fortunate synchornicities seems to be the favored method for most 'civilized' folk... ala wayne dyer, and chopra...

i think if one were to take a look at it it would probably involve generating enough energy and then directing that in some channel or another... pretty standard 'magick' techinque.

the amount of energy/perecptual alignment nessecary to fetch a watch is probably alot less than mountain moving...and much easier to believe that some one will walk up, and hand you said watch than having it drop out of the sky.

belief in what's possible seems to play a very large role... as i understand it in places where the basic physics is understood a little differently there are other possibilities... we seem to have an unacknowleged state religion here in the 'west' of rational materialism, with 'scientists', and doctors being the priests ministering to the lay people... the basic assumptions are different in indigenous cultures, and in places like china. (but don't tell the communist party that LOL...)

i have been reading a book about the secret nazi weapons programs, and interesting and disturbing allegation made by this book is that because of the nazi's refusal to acknowlege the theory of realitivity as 'jewish physics', they developed a different track towards the atom bomb, and were within weeks, of completing their programs when they were finally beaten...(the reason that hitler refused to accept defeat, it wasn't over till the valkries carried him off the field...) this was all hushed up shortly after allied victory because they wanted to keep the nazi technology, science, and scientists hidden from the public.

what is so disturbing about all of this is that it suggests (and the author of the book make clear) that there could be two versions of physics at work in our society. As the west's industrial military complex absorbed, and became guided by the same minds that guided the third reich's industrial military complex, they kept that version of their science to them selves, and promoted realativity, etc. to the public... two sciences, one based on third reich occultism quantum phyics, one based on rational materialist ideaology....

of course new age magazines, and supermarket tabloids are full of ads promising 'the infinite powers of eternal infinite manifestation YOURS---INFINITELY!! only $23.97 ACT NOW!!" the same crap, decade after decade... from theosophy to ramath....(who recently funded an entire movie of this pablum...)

still there's something there.....

[ March 29, 2005, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Agent Smith ]

nanouk

03-29-2005, 10:11 AM

In my own life, time is doing weird things. I am a dedicated moon watcher, and two months ago, I became convinced that the moon had thrown in a few extra days of utter darkness.

true, SO true...

as we left the glastonbury tor lst weekend, me and my oneeyed wodin friend reflected upon the slow progress of the moon, and also, the face of the Madonna has moved considerably to the left...at full moon, anyone else noticed?

mind you, Terra DID wobble an awful lot for a few days leading up to the new year...

[ March 29, 2005, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

Rob P

03-29-2005, 07:03 PM

hmmmm.
just tonight i was looking
into the sky wondering where
the heck the moon had gone....
of course, this being manhattan-
it's usually behind a building or two!
but after the beautiful full
moon in my bedroom window
for two nights in a row.....
i miss it already!!!
seeya
R O B

Buzz

03-30-2005, 02:29 AM

Hey Agent, they didn't just hide them. They invited them stateside. They enginered our first rockets, and former SS were the base force of our developing CIA, called by some different name at the time.

Woodpecker, i can dig the lack of time thing. I'm teaching 5 classes between 2 universities and barely have time for anything else.

As far as a technique or technology for the miracles, maybe. But all I can say is that when I was tripping I would simply decide to do something to defy the current model of reality. If i didn't want to get sunburned I simply willed it, and took practically no conscious effort at all on my part. I think this sort of technique is on a quantum level. Maybe its just an innate ability. I believe that being able to suspend disbelief has everything to do with setting the condition.

Nanouk, you see the Madonna in the moon? I used to see the Mayan rabbit when i was a child, and see the man, but don't recall ever seeing the Madonna, though i once saw Bastet in association with the moon.

[ March 30, 2005, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

Buzz

03-30-2005, 07:09 AM

I don't recall anyone at this forum discussing Martin Prechtal. But he is a part native american man who ended up in Guatemala back in the 70's and lived there in a small Mayan village that bordered on some famous lake (can't remember the lakes name). He has written a least a couple of books, i read the first called Secrets of the Talking Jaguar . He seems credible. Says he was trained as a shaman by a village shaman there.
Prechtal describes a ritual which takes place 5 years after someone has died. It's been a few years since i read the book, so i can not recall the exact circumstances of the ritual. But a ritual is performed and the climax is when a crystal floats down from the sky to the center of the assembled group. This crystal somehow is the embodiment of the soul/spirit of the deceased person who died 5 years before.

This is interesting to me in that on another forum a dreamer reported asking an inorganic in a dream about where they lived. The inorganic replied "rhinestones". The dreamer researched rhinestones and found that the root meaning of the word is crystal found in the Rhine river and not those cheap knock-off imitations that are now called rhinestones.

Woodpecker

03-30-2005, 04:06 PM

Lake Atitlan. That's a great book, Secrets of the Talking Jaguar.

Host2Soma

03-31-2005, 10:41 AM

The Wassons discovered Soma in the search for their ancestoral roots. The point of their discovery I think was left out. As you talked about in your book Daniel, Michel Harner was the only anthropologist to really see ayahuasca's power in it's true form. This is also true with Soma, although research into this subject is somehow vague. How can people overlook the only plant in existance to be known as a God. Probably because this is a plant that threatens the existance of the mortals. The destruction of belief of any human construct is inevitable when Shiva is allowed to possess a human body. Through Soma came the Mantras... A cry to the Gods, a coded frequency made sense by satelites in subspace. The place so far from constructs we build. The place of our true selves. Soma is another tool for Shamanic practice that needs more research. There is buried treasure there. Treasures contained in the stories of creation. The truth from which the mythology arose. The roots of creation. The magic musroom born from the tree of knowledge. Is this not deserving in a place for use in Shamanism? I believe Soma is a powerful healing tool, but maybe I am just one of the few how has accepted Soma's gift.

It is interesting to note that Jonathan Ott speaks of many people going to the hospital form accidental Amanita Muscaria poisoning. It is easy to see how fear could lead a person to become sick. Sick to the stomach, tremours running through there system. In TCM, these tremors are called Wind. Space has come in-between the Qi cause limbs to shake uncontrolably as if one is cold. The coldness is one of not speaking to the energy present which must be done through the heart.

In most research, the active chemical is assumed to be what causes the effect. When you look at Michel Harners experience with Ayahuasca this is not the case. Peoples experiences seem to vary occurding to lifestyle. Some people just are not ready to become Shamans. Ultimatly that is the goal though. Once everyone can become a Shaman everyone can be healed.

Isaiah Mpski

03-31-2005, 11:05 AM

I am Lord Shiva.
In my right hand I carry Mj and in my left a poppy.In my mouth is a bundle of coca leaf.
I am He.The Lord of the beginning and of the end.

Agent Smith

03-31-2005, 12:10 PM

plenty of plants are considered to be gods.

corn for one.... (not a god i care for.)

silentwolf

03-31-2005, 02:57 PM

Host, you're right about the person's paradigm affecting the way they respond to the plant. Bill Drakes Jr. talks about this in "The Connoisseur's Handbook of Marijuana" when he writes about tests that have been done and how they're always inconclusive to the effects because of how different each person responds to it physiologically and mentally.

As far as the Soma goes, I wouldn't preach it...it's as elusive as the Xtian Eucharist.

Host2Soma

04-02-2005, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Agent Smith:
plenty of plants are considered to be gods.

corn for one.... (not a god i care for.)To clarify for the uneducated. Soma: The Divine Mushroom of Immortality by Roger Wasson states that Soma is the only plant to be known as a god.

Agni is the eater and Soma the eatable occording to the later Vedic manuscripts.

Maybe you can clarify under what scriptures corn is a god.

Host2Soma

04-02-2005, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by silentwolfxvx:
Host, you're right about the person's paradigm affecting the way they respond to the plant. Bill Drakes Jr. talks about this in "The Connoisseur's Handbook of Marijuana" when he writes about tests that have been done and how they're always inconclusive to the effects because of how different each person responds to it physiologically and mentally.

As far as the Soma goes, I wouldn't preach it...it's as elusive as the Xtian Eucharist.silentwolf,
I'm preaching from experience. The two times that I've eaten Amanita Muscaria I heard a voice and responded to it. The first experience I had, I heard a voice. And responded by yelling louder and louder. I saw an image of my partner 150 miles away. And yelled to her. After the trip ended I called her and asked "Did you feel that?". She explained to me how she had woken up at the same exact time, 3AM, thinking of me.
The second time I took Amanitas I was in contact with people until they dropped me off at home for being to loud. I was just being funny. The jokes were pretty complex... One gentleman who must have been talking about his job saying the word "union". Feeling as if I was connected to the entire universe I screamed "HOW BIG's THE UNION!?!" HOW BIG's THE UNION?!?" As I screamed my voice filled the entire universe which is essentially infinate. This is a hugely clever joke that could only be thought up by a god. Later, before I someone in another building finally called 911, I saw this reality as a movie being played for everyone. In the end everyone died with laughter and we all saw each other as we really are... Actors in a movie.

So, what I am advising from experience is that people stop being afraid. Life is just a ride. It isn't real. It's made up so that you can have something to do. Really.

silentwolf

04-02-2005, 02:31 PM

Host, there are names in Aztec for the corn god; in fact, in several spiritual traditions, all plants, animals, and other things are all considered to be gods, but not in the same sense as the Xtian one.

The Vedic scriptures speak of soma, but they do not describe it. It is unknown to what they are referring, though some are quite forthcoming in declaring it to be a mushroom, without any evidence of the same. The history of the area cries a different tale, however; have you not heard of the sacred bhang?

I'm sure you have had potent visions from the amanitas. Speak of that, and not of Soma; Soma no longer exists in this day, save in pill form for muscular tension.

Buzz

04-03-2005, 06:37 AM

I have only had one significant trip on Amanita. I read a book when i was high. At the time i thought it was the insightful trip i had ever had. Now, out of the Zieghist slipstream, i am uncertain as to why. I'd love to hear more reports about people's trips on Amanita. Only the deadly kind seem to grow where i am and it is quite expensive over the net.

As far as Soma goes. The jury is still out as to what that substance actually was. My money is on Psilocyben, however. I base this on two of the major gods of the ancient world. One, Zeus (with a host of other names around the Mediterranean) is often represented as a Bull. According to the Sumerians and other Semitic and African tribes, the goddess Hathor (Egyptian), Ninharsag (Sumerian) was co-creator of mankind and she is represented as a cow, or a human body with a cow head. You can follow them in art through the Paleolithic cavepaintings of Northern Spain, southern France, Catal Huyuk (modern Turkey). Egypt, ancient Semitic cultures, and Minoan Crete, just to name a few. We all know where Psilocyben grows.

Host2Soma

04-03-2005, 06:39 AM

The Hmong are one of several groups of people practicing animism. These are practices that I also partake in. Everything can be considered to be made up of energy or have a spirit. What I am talking about is the source of creation itself. The gods you are speaking of are demi-gods. There is only one god completely alone in the universe. I didn't come to this forum to argue. Your cynisism makes me angry. You are not ready to know the truth yet. Your destruction and resurection into the one will come in time.

Originally posted by silentwolfxvx:
Host, there are names in Aztec for the corn god; in fact, in several spiritual traditions, all plants, animals, and other things are all considered to be gods, but not in the same sense as the Xtian one.

The Vedic scriptures speak of soma, but they do not describe it. It is unknown to what they are referring, though some are quite forthcoming in declaring it to be a mushroom, without any evidence of the same. The history of the area cries a different tale, however; have you not heard of the sacred bhang?

I'm sure you have had potent visions from the amanitas. Speak of that, and not of Soma; Soma no longer exists in this day, save in pill form for muscular tension.

Buzz

04-03-2005, 06:54 AM

Host,

Like silent, i am interested in hearing reports of your Amanita trips.

Also, above, where i stated i read a book while tripping on Amanita, it was actually more like looking at page after page and seeing the book like a movie.

[ April 03, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

whitewave

04-03-2005, 08:10 AM

Host,
I too, am very sensitive to tone--cynicism upsets me and makes me feel dismissed and disempowered. Sometimes I choose to address it and call people on it, other times I don't, but I feel like you were stumbling into silentwolf's lair when you told him you didn't think he was ready to receive the visions you speak of. Sometimes it is best just to present the facts and not worry about how they are interpreted afterwards.

silentwolf

04-03-2005, 03:08 PM

Host, take a step back and a breath or ten.

Everyone has a different perspective, especially when it comes to deities and the construction of existence, but even more so when it comes to language. Unfortunately, we must convey our experiences through symbols, and these symbols do not mean the same from one person to the next. None of us at this time are capable of directly transmitting experience.

Ask others about their beliefs before dogmaticly expounding your own if you wish to garner an understanding between yourself and those with whom you are attempting to communicate. Communication is difficult, and neither party will understand the other if either one declares their point of view to be the only true one. Your paradigm is unknown to me until you share it with me, just as mine is the same with you.

I am a follower of the Law of One. I believe that all things exist through awareness, and that all things are unified no matter how much we try to dissect, catalogue, and warehouse them in their own cozy little boxes. I decline to use the term "god" or any other form of it as much as I am able because of the connotations that I feel it carries with it. Also, I feel that all things are sacred, and equally so.

Given my paradigm, my perception that all things be equal, when you tell me that I am not yet ready to receive the "divine visions" I will agree with you, and add that the same applies to you if it is with me.

A drop of water can change the ocean, but only by becoming the ocean and forgetting the droplet. We all know this, but who can practice it?

I personally have never taken Amanita Muscaria, neither do I have any intention of doing so or encouraging others to do the same. In this moment, it is not for me to work with this plant. I do not encourage it because humans in general are a quite stupid lot, and the Amanitas have killed more people throughout history than safer and just as effective plants such as peyote or san pedro. The risks outweigh the benefits in promoting this plant spirit, though it is no fault of the plant, but of ourselves.

Try to garner understanding rather than preach...and remember that without the ability to perceive things as they are, you will not be able to change what is there, but only further distort your perceptions of them.

Agent Smith

04-04-2005, 07:22 AM

i don't even bother with the psychoactive plants.

kale will give you an interesting initiation if you know how to ask it.

host, you come to this forum 'not to argue', but start calling others 'uneducated', cynical, and 'not ready'.

it's this last one that i will have to take exception with because i have heard it so often from those who have some sort of dogma to sell, and when if falls upon the ears of a person who may have condsidered what is being offered, and decided differently calling them 'not ready' is a quick and easy cop out to dismiss a differing point of view, and thus insulate the dogmatist from thinking about something new.

further i become more, and more weary of those who think they can just present us with the 'TRUTH', and then if we don't all bow down to their obvious alphaness (predicated on their intellectual, and spiritual prowess) then they have no need to modify the trasmission of their message, but are free to demote us to inhuman wretches, who will die for our lack of their special knowlege, and then finally once our bones have been digested by the great cosmic tapeworm, we will finally know that they were right and grovel to kiss thier hineys....

...if these beings in their infinite compassion were oh so intent on conveying their irrifutible cosmic rightness they'd learn from millenia of their predecessors, and learn the art of rhetoric, (*gasp* 'argument') and alter the delievery of their message, so that it could reach the cynical ears of the unrepentant uneducated intact instead of being dismissed by said lowlies as banal ARROGANCE.... it's called salesmanship, and if you think that jesus, mohammed, or buddha didn't practice itin spades... well...you're just not ready...

having said all of that... hey guess what... i'm cynical... i am deffinitly uneducated (that's why i come here sweetie, if i knew it all already i'd be too busy to ready these forums) and another thing.... i am ARROGANT!

prove it! prove your onegod loves ya baby! i'll bet you a nickle that you pray to the corn god more often than your somagod.... when was the last time you had something with corn syrup in it? corn is the most successful crop on earth. we grow, eat, and plant more corn than any other plant on earth... and unless you eat a specialized diet that keeps it's icky sticky carbosugars out of your bloodstream, you're it's thrall, not it's master... (maybe you do...*shrug* what do i know, i'm just an unbelieving infidel...)

...yep, i'm an arrogant SOB, guess what my dick's bigger than your onegods, you go tell him that this universe is my hill, and he can shove off! 'cause i can out fight, out fuck, and out type any universal allfather, source of everything, techincolor 'shroom you ever put into your bong dooooode (except for maybe Z-ram... that was one badass fungi LOL)

i'm a Universial All One SCOFF Law!! and i chew up, spit out, and wipe Demiurge's off the bottom of my heel like everyday....!!!

don't believe me? you're just not ready.

[ April 04, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Agent Smith ]

silentwolf

04-04-2005, 10:10 AM

ROFL!!! That out-do line reminds me of the late Master Wang Shu Jin of Ba Gua. He was 5'8", 300 pounds, and he used to literally beat the hell out of his students and other masters simply by bouncing them off of his belly...and one of his favorite things to say to a young buck who thought he was all that was, "I can eat more than you, I can have more sex than you, and I can fight better than you, but you call yourself healthy. well, young man, there is a lot more to being healthy than being young, and it all comes down to how much chi you have."

Agent Smith

04-05-2005, 04:07 AM

i was thinking more along the lines of the SubGenius Brag... ("yeeehaaaaw, I pick the mutherfokkin' terror of the gods out of my nose!!!!!...." it begins LOL)

but Wang's even better... ::blush:: ...aw, gosh...thanx

tana

04-05-2005, 11:35 AM

Holy irreverence! Bravo, Agent Smith...that sure was fun!

Humming

04-05-2005, 12:55 PM

Ah, forceful humility, such a neccesity for growth....

Agent Smith

04-05-2005, 01:06 PM

...actually i think it maybe time for me to begin to opt for 'effective communication' over hilarious...

i'll have to work at that.

...i have wondered for a long time though about 'justifable arrogance'. is it arrogance in the case of Wang Shu Jin? is it arrogance if you can back it up? i have often been accused of being arrogant when i was attempting to down play, and understate things... it's something i need to work on.

is humility always the best policy?

among a certain level of martial artists, i have encountered what i would characterize as a 'false' humility. humbleness as a mask for arrogance. i have seen this even more frequently among the 'spiritual'... aka 'my samadhi is so much higher than yours, that i can be twice as compassionate as you'...

or as that wise zensunni master 'weird' Al Yankovic puts it "Think you're really righteous/Think you're pure at heart/well my brother I'm a million times more humble than thou art!:"