What are we going to do about the environment.

[moon zappa]

My name is lindsy,
recently I have recieved information from a website:www.thepetitionsite.com, explaining to me all about Richard Plumnbo's brand new idea. Lets sell the national forests to industries. This news made me cry, andI am absolutely outraged . Our current power heads are finding loop holes in the endangered species act. I do not want to idly stand by and watch this happen. I find that way too many protests end with small results. The recent anti-war protests rock. So many people are becomming aware. I am very serious about making people aware and stand up for their rights. Please lets start protecting our environment in a grand and small scale. Recently I have written emails to my senators and my rep. of pennsylvania, and the white house. Imagine if everyone wrote their senator saying the same beliefs, and talking about their ideas about how to change things. The people get what they want or America isn't a democracy is it? my few ideas are boycotting major corporations as much as possible. saving energy, conserving water, reusing paper,etc. Currently I am not plugged into the machine so it is generally easy for me, but I would appreciate ideas and putting a plan or protest into action.
Thank you all very much.
Love

[ October 10, 2005, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: moon zappa ]

[moon zappa]

wow anytime I post anything on this website I get no fucking replies. Thats really fuckinglame...
all you heads who appreciate shamanism have nothing to say at all about fucking answers. you all just complain.

[sidecross]

I would take it from both your posts you are young in years. For some of us longer in the tooth what bothers you in particular is much older than all our ages added together.

Is it not the same arrogance that you demand responses the same arrogance that is the root of our folly as a species?

Gandhi’s quote should be considered at moments like these; he wrote, ‘what you do is not important, but it is important that you do it.’

[JCCamp007]

Sell all that you have and flee to the Mountains,the Mountains of Bush.Oklahoma.
Moon Zappa as I look at the full moon tonight I wonder what you expect us to do about our problems with Bush,not to mention our own personal hardships,with too much money,too many stocks,too much land and people trying to cheat me out of my oil and gas.
Would anyone like to hear my story again.
And Sidecross somewhere we were talking about longevity and someone said we are allocated 1.5 billion heartbeats and then we got into some more good discussion and I need to add a bit of info about what were the reasons that some Native Americans lived to be 200 years and more. There are several reasons-less stress-cleaner water and air-natural food(usually fresh)-exercise
And one of the most important reasons was that they didn;t have gluten or much sugar in their diet.Gluten is a protein found in wheat,rye,barley,and oats.
You can see me and my 7th generation Father on Yahoo group-PickOverFlow-Quanum Parker-Founder of the Native American Church.
What few people have recognised and about which I have written in The Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients is the role of stem cells in our bodies.
Stem cells are located in tissue surrounding our intestines called Peyer's Patches,they are also probably found in the appendix.
These stem migrate into all organ systems in our bodies and regenerate them.
Cells as well as organ systems wear much like the outside of our body.After a time period,organ systems wear and are refreshed from the inside out.
The worn out cells and the biproducts of normal biochemical activity are carried away by our vascular systems and we are cleansed by our lungs,liver,kidney,sweating,and bowel functions but the regeneration of our systems by the stem cells from Peyer's Patches is as an important a factor as anything else.
For those of you who haven't heard of it Chelation will add years to your life and as one study showed will reduce your chances of getting caner by 90%.
Hope your happy now Lindsy.

Doc

[ October 18, 2005, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: JCCamp007 ]

[sidecross]

‘…someone said we are allocated 1.5 billion heartbeats and then we got into some more good discussion and I need to add a bit of info about what were the reasons that some Native Americans lived to be 200 years and more…’

As this is the centennial year of Einstein’s theory of Special Relativity it is important to emphasize that Einstein proved that time is not absolute.

Someone who lives for 200 years could be living in an alternate time or could be a time traveler. These are just two theoretical reasons that could help explain such an occurrence if it could be shown by empirical evidence that someone indeed is 200 years old.

[okster]

"ideas and putting a plan or protest into action.."

There are quite a few major and mind-boggling issues in the world right now. Hard to know where to start. If you work on this, then you are ignoring that. But it all adds up. And I think everyone needs to do everything they can. The issue of deforestation is certainly a big one.

For me, what has made sense is to educate myself as much as possible (quickly, efficiently, right away - it is urgent!) and to then attempt to educate others. I spend a bit more time reading on the web than most people might want to do, and maybe a bit more money on books and videos than most people can or will. But one reason I do that is so that other people don't have to. Its about information. So its an information war. If everyone knew what was really going on, they might start to care and want to change things. As long as they remain in ignorance, no reason to care about things that they don't even know about.

So what I have found to be the most effective way to learn and to teach is by the use of well-made documentary videos. You can learn a lot really fast from a good film. And you might have good luck getting other people to watch a video, whereas they may not be quite as responsive to a suggestion to read a big book or go check out a website. You can show people videos at your house, you can loan them, you can make copies, you can make events out of showing films, you can convince films clubs, theaters, or other organizations to show films.

Al right then, as far as the situation with forests in the US goes, there are a few pretty cool films that I know of, which all happen to deal with tree-sitting. If you want to talk about protesting the actions of the logging companies or the US government with regard to the forests, the tree-sitters are the ones doing that. And I mean THEY ARE REALLY DOING IT.

Check out:

Tree-Sit (2hrs) http://www.treesit.org
Very cool docu covering the treesitting scene in the redwood forests of northern California. Lots of history on the situation. Not yet on DVD, but soon will be. Very worthwhile. This is one that people really respond to.

Struggle in the Woods (30min) http://www.treesit.org
includes footage of extractions (getting the treesitters out of the trees) Good, short overview of the whole situation.

Treewoman (30min)
http://www.addictedtowar.com/TreeWoman.htm
German docu covering Julia Butterfly Hill's record treesit (2 years way up in a redwood)

These are some heavy films. Like most people, I knew nothing about any of this before getting ahold of these videos. I highly reccomend them all and I suggest showing them to as many people as possible. Documentaries on tons of subjects are coming out faster and faster. And it is now not too hard for people to make their own films.

I also recently read the book A Good Forest for Dying, which tells the story of Gypsy, the treesitter who was killed when a logger felled a tree in his direction. Very interesting read. I have not yet studied much into deforestation worldwide, but like I say, it is a BIG ISSUE. A couple of older feature films dealing with the Amazonian rain forests, The Emerald Forest and Medicine Man, are pretty cool.

Check out: http://www.ran.org
Rainforest Action Network

just some ideas....

[SecondSun]

Hi moon zappa. Yeah I've had problems with getting no or getting very defensive responses in this group. I also want to do whatever I can to effect a change. I'm a musician so I'm thinking about doing open mic kind of stuff with a political feel. I'd say don't give up, and remember, the internet is often a place where grumpy old men (or disenfranchised people of anykind) go to complain. I'm constantly surprised by how few people on the internet are actually interested in doing anything... Ho hum.

Ghandi also said "be the change you wish to see in the world." Are you that change, sidecross?

[sidecross]

‘Ghandi also said "be the change you wish to see in the world." Are you that change, sidecross?’

Yes, I am grumpy and old too; you too will be old in time!

[Lowlight]

What are we going to do for the environment?

Nothing.

Nothing at all.

Sometimes things have to be destroyed before they can be rebuilt. Those who have the power to affect change here and now will not - those in power, and us the people.

It's a problem of human consciousness. I hope we expand ourselves sooner rather than later but sometimes we only see to learn through destruction.

(actually in the most hidden temples the holy men whisper 'between creation and destruction, there is no division')

[SecondSun]

Sidecross, I didn't mean to attack you for being old. It's just kind of sad that you have to be so grumpy. I hope when I reach your age (which probably isn't even that old) that I will have cultivated a little more gratitude for life. Maybe I will and maybe I won't. Don't take it personally.

What are we going to do for the environment?

Nothing.

Nothing at all.I sincerely doubt that. There are a lot of people who are working to better the environment, even people who work for the (dun dun dun) US government. Although it is obvious that you will do nothing since you have that kind of attitude... It's your choice, dude.

I would suggest, if you want to make the world a better place, figure out what you are good at, and figure out how you can use your gifts to contribute to your community, or to the human race as a whole. If you are a good writer, than write for an earth conscious magazine. If you love science, then get a degree in biology and work for the EPA. Lindsy, you are still young. That is a good thing. It means you have more time to figure out how you want to make a contribution. I wouldn't take advice from someone who's bitter because they wasted their youth on drugs and alcohol.

[ October 19, 2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: SecondSun ]

[SecondSun]

Please excuse me for double posting, but I just thought of something. Lindsy, I don't know if you are going to school, but if you are you should look into joining a politically minded club. If your school doesn't have a club, talk to your teachers, I bet they would have some good advice for an aspiring activist. There are probably a lot of resources within your community which you could utilize that they (teachers, parents, friends, ministers, etc) could point you towards. Just some ideas.

[dragonfly]

The Hill
Oct. 19, 2005
Report questions Rep. Pombo’s trips (http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/101905/pombo.html)
By Jim Snyder

House Resources Chairman Richard Pombo (R-Calif.) may have violated tax laws by accepting international trips paid for by a private foundation, according to a report (http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=753) out yesterday.

The Center for Public Integrity, which co-wrote the report with American Public Media’s “Marketplace” radio news show, alleges that the International Foundation for the Conservation of Natural Resources (IFCNR) funded trips to New Zealand and Japan in 2000 and 2002, respectively.

The trips cost a total of $23,000. Pombo’s wife accompanied the congressman on the first trip; a staff member went along on the second.

The IFCNR is apparently funded in part by donations from Darden Restaurants, the parent of the Red Lobster and Olive Garden chains. The Foundation also has received money from the National Trappers Association and the International Fur Trade Association.

Pombo’s Resources Committee has partial jurisdiction over federal environmental policy such as the Endangered Species Act, which Pombo and others have sought this year to rewrite. Environmental groups have argued that the changes would gut protections.

Justice Department and congressional investigations into the actions of former lobbyist Jack Abramoff have drawn increased scrutiny to congressional travel. Among the allegations facing Abramoff is that he personally paid for some member travel, a violation of House rules.

The potential problem with Pombo’s trips, according to the report, is that the Internal Revenue Service precludes private, nonprofit foundations from funding international travel by government officials.

The report says Pombo could have to reimburse the foundations for the costs of the trip or face what it describes as a stiff fine.

The foundation should have also paid taxes on the trip, but the report alleges that it did not. It could also have to pay a penalty.

Pombo told the Center and Marketplace that he had not been aware that the Foundation was private and that it was governed by different tax rules than trade associations, interest groups, think tanks and other nonprofit groups that routinely pay for congressional travel.

Pombo said he would have his accountant look into the allegations made in the report.

Brian Kennedy, a spokesman for the Resources Committee, said that if the review shows that Pombo owes money “he will make good on his debt.”

Foundation President Emeritus Stephen Boynton told investigators for the Center of Public Integrity and “Marketplace” that the foundation asked both Pombo and the House ethics committee if it could pay for the trips and received the OK.

The report also notes that Pombo served as the chairman of the Sustainable Use Parliamentarians Union (SUPU), a subsidiary to the IFCNR that was involved with the trips.

Pombo allegedly served in that capacity from 2000 to July 2004. Rep. Dennis Rehberg, a Republican from Montana, is the current chairman of the group.

Pombo said that he had not had contact with the IFNCR or SUPU for several years. SUPU has only had two meetings, Boynton said.

[tree hugger]

Here are some of the things I do;
I use a push mower, no gas
I rake my leaves by hand even though I live on an acre and a quarter of land and most of it is trees. I think of the Nearings while I'm doing it. (you know, "The Good Life") lol
I struggle each summer over whether or not to cut down trees because I have mildew problems, why you ask?
No air conditioning and lots of shade! Those pesky trees.
I don't buy bottled water. Because buying bottled water encourages the privatization of water.
I recycle everything I can even though there are days when I just don't want to be washing, lugging it into bins and then taking those bins on what seems like a mile long walk down my driveway to put them on the curb.
I do not buy things from places I know have bad labor issues as well as just being aware of what things are made of etc.
I buy a lot second hand. Furniture, clothes, shoes, my daughters toys. That one really gets me. If a not one more plastic toy was made we'd still have plenty for decades.
I buy my food at a farmers market in the spring thru fall. Local and organic.
I try to read labels in stores to see how far my food has traveled if it's too far I don't buy it.
I don't use bleach or other bad household products.
I hardly eat fish anymore I don't think I have to explain.
I use eco spec paint for our house.
I don't have cable or regular television
I could list more but I won't bore anyone any longer.

I think I hardly do anything. And I do a lot more then most of the people I know. The push mower was big. We might as well have gotten a horse and carriage the way people reacted. And the fact that we rake our leaves by hand! It's a joke. I loved the books edited or otherwise by Kenny Ausubel one of the Bioneers founders , they made me feel some what hopeful.
But in general I feel overwhelmed on a daily basis. The web is so deep and complex it makes me wonder if we can pull ourselves out of it.
Moon Zappa, I wanted to post some great idea for you when I read your first post but I had/have none. And don't think I haven't spent hours and days on any number of insane disturbing topics because I have. Still nothing seems like it will make a dent in the gigantic shit pile we've managed to create for ourselves. Perhaps that makes me "lame" . But I do what I can on a very small level and I tell all my friends why I do what I do. I do try. If I was a better person perhaps I'd go sit in a tree. Or do some other heroic act.

For me right now, my heroic act entails praying and working towards a better state of heart/ mind, so that I don't inadvertently contribute anymore negativity to what is a compromised planet that my daughter has to love/live in.

[craazyman]

moon zappa,

Here's an idea: Take up the intensive study of economics, get a master's or PhD degree and specialize in reconciling traditional free market price theory with the concept of public goods (i.e. clean air, water, safe communities, etc.) and externalities (e.g. pollution, human rights abuses, beggar-thy-neighbor trade policies, etc.)

Free market price theory is seriously flawed. It considers only the direct costs in valuing a good or service, not the indirect costs that good or service lays off on society. Economics is a young discipline, founded on many irrationalities and in need of help.

The intensive study of economics is not likely the first thing that would come to mind to many of the folks who visit this board. Being an artist, poet, painter, musician, healer, writer, etc. would come to mind first.

But the problems you describe are essentially economic/spiritual problems. Economic theory needs a foundation of spiritual lucidity, and traditional economists are incapable of it. They lack the vision. They believe that is the job of politics. But the political system is largely incapable of it too, because it is overrun with unrestrained free market economics. Communism and socialism are not the answers, they totally ignore any form of rational price theory and produce more problems than they solve. The problem is to reconstruct economics on a sound and all-inclusive theoretical foundation.

U2's Bono had lunch with Bush today at the White House (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/19/D8DB6HVG0.html), and he's gotten involved with private equity investing too. In my view, he's on to something.

Best regards,
-C

[Agent Smith]

the biosphere is totally repairable... i've mentioned reforestation before, and i'll do it now again...

www.seedballs.com (http://www.seedballs.com)

Ausubel is the one who convinced me that we can turn things around... he says that the main challenges to overcome are political, and economic...

...it'll take more than even several 200 year lifetimes to get things back in balance... and in the interm there's going to be lots of fun to be had by all, even if humans decided to cut out the horseshit tomorrow, and cooperate... but hey, it beats watching sienfeld reruns...

[willoweyes]

Treehugger, you wouldn't believe what a couple of goats could do for your leaf raking problems, not to mention mowing problems and tip-pruning problems! And you would have beautiful organic goat milk and goat cheese. If you don't have a male goat, your milk goats will not stink Only male goats stink (sorry guys).

Be sure and get Toggenberg goats. Not only are they the bravest and most beautiful of goats, but they don't baa constantly like some other breeds I could mention. Do not let anyone talk you into the desecration called "dehorning." Do not buy a dehorned goat. They are defenseless, and very aware of their loss. Most dehorned goats are permanently depressed.

[tree hugger]

Willow Eyes, thanks I'm really inspired. I just spent a couple of days this summer with a women who had a goat that was really an amazing creature. Maybe there's a message being sent my way!

Peace,

Tree hugger

[moon zappa]

*donate money to saving the environment

It is all politics see

I have not read every post but I am glad I finally got some replies.
I dont go to school I travel.
I did go to art school for a year in kansas. now I want to go to amsterdam and I want to meet cool people and shamans.

I go to these specific websites:
www.the (http://www.the) petitionsite.com<Tells all

and when I was in washington the anti war movement waked this: www.worldcantwait.org (http://www.worldcantwait.org)
(taking out the bush regime)
I highly rcommend checking these out.

I have richard pombos office number I plan on giving him a call. and the dumb bitch who runs kleenex. I pick up trash.

I am a part of THERAINBOWFAMILY
origonaly created in the late 60s to pray for peace.
www.welcomehome.org/ (http://www.welcomehome.org/)

peace out
_rainbow

[moon zappa]

Also the endagered speicies bill has been dropped... as far as I know or was it selling n a t i o n a l f o r e s t to industries!?

TREEHUGGER: you are very sustainable I appprectiate the few people I know who are...including myself.

Sidecross: That is a good quote by ghandi,but I heard he beat his wife anyway...shrugg

and yes I am 19 years old but if you actually could sit down and talk to me I could tell you alot alll poeple can or most welll minus politics media and the all around ignorant, but yes I am young. Animals plants the elements babies children tell all. just observe.

Btw I recently got to stay with a pagan coven for samhein it rocked. viva dia de muerte>sorry off topic
any way be thankfull the puritans commited mass slaughter:\

[ November 24, 2005, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: moon zappa ]

[daniel]

hi lindsey,

thanks for your post, and spurring this debate.

it is clear that we need an "environmental U-Turn," as one eco-leader put it, and it is also clear that this U-Turn has not happened yet.

it is increasingly clear that every issue is inextricably interwoven... Rainforest Action Network has done great work getting major corporations to stop investing in companies that utilize resources from endangered forests - I suggest going to www.ran.org (http://www.ran.org) and read the Tricycle interview with their Chairman - their strategy is brilliant.

And yet the Brazilian Rainforest is going faster than ever. Why? Because of the need for soybeans, which has increased since Mad Cow Disease. Brazilian soybeans go to feed European and Asian cattle, which can no longer be fed meat. Therefore, if we want to save the rainforest, we have to make people vegetarian, or at least move them radically in that direction.

My reason for starting Evolver is that I think the way to effect change is to seduce the elites into a new paradigm, by offering them better alternatives that are also groovier, more fun, more vibrant, healthier. I agree with the Dalai Lama that everyone just wants a better life - show them how to have one, and they will change their ways.

That is why the Lefist carping tone is never going to do anything useful. We need to show a better way of life by representing it, and also by actualizing it. "Be the change you want to see," is the only sensible answer.

[Dna]

There are so many miracles daily. Deciding we’re not going to survive is presumptuous. (http://www.ran.org/news/newsitem.php?id=1509&area=featured)I get a sense of infinite possibilities in that last sentence. Having a sense of the infinite in our daily activities makes us freer to create. I think if we look at life in this way then we cannot be paralysed by our anger at problems of the world.

[ November 28, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Dna ]