Shamanism is a Crappy Term

[Reverend]

I have been poking around shamanism in books for some time, trying to figure out what exactly it was. Shamans are specialists in entering altered states for the good of their people, but how exactly is that different from what a hyped-up Christian preacher does? Some of these guys are definitely outside of consensus reality.
I must cite Alice Beck Kehoe for pointing out the obvious in "Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exploration in Critical Thinking." Her big idea is that shamanism is -not- a unified worldwide phenomenon, and that what shamans do is in fact the same as what mystics in bookish religions do. Any healer working on the level of heightened concentration or altered states is dubbed a "shaman" by anthropologists and others, but only if they are from a materially simple culture. Thus, they have shamans and we have faith healers.
Perhaps a majority of "shamans" do not use drugs, relying on dance, music or meditation. Can we really say that a plains Indian man meditating is the same as a Siberian dancing and drumming or an Amazonian lying in a DMT state?
Actually I liked B.O.T.H. a lot. The personal accounts of exotic adventure and drug-induced experiences were bravely and well-written. The "poltergheist" event must have opened Daniel P. to accusations of borderline psychosis, but it seems to be all there nonetheless.
The idea that most of what we know is actually what we are told was something of a revelation... of course I -knew- that already, but somehow the idea didn't "take."
But really, I don't think we alienated modern capitalist (colorless?) people should lump so much diverse experience under a label like "shamanism" and attempt to appropriate it in workshops, drug tourism and so on. It is absolutely right to try to learn from the Bwitis, ayahuasca-drinkers and so on. But there is no nobly savage spirituality that we can commodify and sell to each other with or without fancy plants, which is something B.O.T.H. really suggested to me.
The idea of "shamanism" as a commodity is demonstrated to me by Daniel P using it as a way to find personal fulfillment in Manhattan, while the people he calls shamans are expected to serve a community role. This is no personal criticism -- this is how hard it is to see and break the capitalist, "I am what I own" mindset. Of course, parents try to buy their kids intelligence with button-pressing baby toys and people buy strength at the gym -- why shouldn't "shamanic" faculties also be treasured commodities?
I am afraid that liberation is not gonna come from Silicon Valley hipsters firing a million-dollar laser into the desert sky (although it made me happy to know they were doing that). Worse, there is no original spirituality of shamanism that we have lost and need to regain. We are just gonna have to build this thing back up from scratch and quit grabbing out for the nearest lifeline.
Five stars, but I had to get that off my chest

[Buzz]

Hi Rev. Ethan,

I think you are right in the universal use of "shamanism" to apply to all non-ordinary, extraordinary healing. If I'm not mistaken it was coined by anthro/archeologists in the 19th century and applied only to Central & South American "witchdoctors".
Shamanism is evolving, like every other science. The anthropologist crowd has traced it's roots back to Siberia. Though I suspect it was global and started farther back in time than they wish to consider. The Shamen of Siberia/Asia were resourceful creatures, but not saints. Many of them used their healing powers to gain political power. Some became great warrior kings. I suspect these values were transplanted to the new world. It may only be in the post-western invasion days that shamanism has turned to healing in a community setting, often isolated from the western world. But if you read much about what is going on in those places, one quickly realizes that it is not all about community healing. Some do only white magic, some work with the dark and the light, and some are black in intent. I think there is the reason that some in Central America insist that "sorcery" is actually a better term.

I thought I might just add, that with the introduction of religions of compassion, and universal grace, shamanism is still evolving. And some believe, coming around full circle to a world view in a distant age.

[ May 27, 2004, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Reverend]

You are right, community healing is not the whole of it, but most varieties of shaman have some expected place to fill (maybe as diviners, weather controllers, or hunting backup). I get the sense that sorcerers outside of a designated social position tend to be viewed as cosmic rebels, witches or whatever. For some reason I was not counting these characters as shamans.
"Shaman" was originally a Siberian term (Tungus?). It replaced terms like "witch doctor" and "medicince man" that some felt were deragatory. I don't think we can say where it started and spread to because, as I said, I don't believe it is actually a tradition.
In fact, I would say that the bit of unity we do see in shamanism is actually the negative of what is unique in our literate traditions. For instance, many shamans use drugs to focus their minds on the spirit world. So we think drug use is characteristic of this thing called "shamanism."
Yet, many shamans do not use drugs and many shamanic cultures use drugs in different contexts (initiation, ???). It looks to me like shamans use or don't use drugs in a variety of ways, and what is exceptional is religions like Buddhism and Christianity and Patriotism that have rejected or repressed drug use.

[Buzz]

I would add astrologers, astronomers, city planners, artists of many varieties, etccc to that list as well.
That's right about shamen/Siberia. Though I have always felt that this was a world wide knowledge, even if discovered by each individual culture, folks simply seemed to have stumbled onto something that introduced magic and freedom from certain limitations. I personally do believe this spread out of Africa via the migrations long ago. It has certainly had time to develop in a variety of ways.

Patriotism a religion :D . I like that!

The non-drug experience happens. I tried a fairly simple ritual expressed by Michael Harner in one of his books. One to draw ones animal helper. It was a powerful experience. I'm afraid I'm not good with continous nurturing of that sort of thing, however.

[Halfglass]

Hey Rev: I have by degrees been blindly establishing myself in "shamanism" I GUESS! Healing (of my cat through a dream while on a psychedelic) contact of The Dead, it goes on. I can barely tell it here. The shit I've experienced brother. I believe as McKenna did that "true" shamanism must include the psychedelic...how can it not? Years of sitting on a mat for what? To know that we are that Thing...the It? the Hindus have been saying that for centuries...or was it the Buddhists? (LOL)

[Charlie]

Hey Buzz:

What do you think of Michael Harner? I was thinking of buying his classic Way of the Shaman, but his concepts of "Core Shamanism" are sometimes accused of being a sort of new-age "Shamanism Lite", which doesn't acknowledge the full scope of lineal and cultural traditions; some sceptics accuse his workshops of just being a money-making racket.

It sounds, however, like some of the techniques in his book worked for you...

[Reverend]

I believe as McKenna did that "true" shamanism must include the psychedelic...how can it not? That is a very good question half-glass. The answer is: illness, staring at fire, staring at a point, staring at an unbroken sky, starvation, sensory deprivation, maintenance of uncomfortable postures, praying, sticking your head in a hole, sticking a hole in your head, making/hearing music, dancing, symbolic ritual, burning incense, and sitting on a mat. True shamans (Siberian ones whose own people call them that) sometimes use Amanitas mushrooms but sometimes don't. The core thing is ritual and music.
I think Buzz has it right to say that people keep stumbling onto something giving them magic and freedom from certain limitations... the human mind has some capacity to go outside of the apparent physical limitations, and since every group of humans has it, it must be as old as moving out of Africa. The capacity -and practice- of magic occur in all peoples at all times, and that is what I am afraid gets obscured by our crappy terminology.

[Buzz]

Hi Charlie,

I'm pretty sure that The Way of the Shaman is the book I read. I'm no expert on him, but it seems that most of his workshops involve drumming to induce trance. But in his book he went far into the Amazon and followed indigenous people even farther into the forest and did Ayahuasca. His trip reports are every bit as strange as Castenada, though unlike CC, he didn't seem so stuck in his western ego.

He explains ritual in layman's terms the best I can recall, easy to follow, instructive, and to the point.

My wife, who has read a bit more of him than my self, just told me that he is more "real world" in the telling of his story compared to Castenada, who was more of a poet/artist/writer. Don't know if I can tell you anymore than that.

Charlie, on an unrelated topic, I've seen a Lonely Planet episode in which a world traveler went to Spain and stayed at a beach along the Atlantic. It's a hippie hangout and has been for decades, do you have any idea what the name of the beach is, and location?

[Charlie]

Hey, Buzz:

Sorry, the only Spanish hippie hangout that I know (I’m not a good source of info) is Ibiza, one of the Balearic Islands in the Mediterranean…there are still hippies, but the island has now evolved into a big Rave destination, and as a magnet for european gays and lesbians. Basically, a party place.

Locals call our home “the hippie house”, because we’ve let people stay for extended periods, and hold Mayan rituals…if you ever visit Spain, look me up…

[Buzz]

Thanks Charlie.
I may take you up on that one of these days.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Halfglass:
Years of sitting on a mat for what? To know that we are that Thing...the It? the Hindus have been saying that for centuries...or was it the Buddhists? (LOL)It was the Hindus (Tat et sat, or You are That).

Part of the point to sitting on a mat for years is to develop mental discipline, which is necessary for making full use of psychedelics. I'm not talking about being a control-freak, since this is counter-productive to the psychedelic experience, but rather developing a strength and focus of mind. Otherwise, the untrained and undisciplined mind on psychedelics will end up hurting itself long-term and will not have the discipline to stop drug-use at the appropriate time or otherwise exercise moderation.

[toppersbazaar]

"Part of the point to sitting on a mat for years is to develop mental discipline, which is necessary for making full use of psychedelics. I'm not talking about being a control-freak, since this is counter-productive to the psychedelic experience, but rather developing a strength and focus of mind. Otherwise, the untrained and undisciplined mind on psychedelics will end up hurting itself long-term and will not have the discipline to stop drug-use at the appropriate time or otherwise exercise moderation." The best advice you'll find on this board as far as high dose lsd use goes....not knowing when to stop can leave you "too open sometimes" especialy if you are not working with a shaman.....and I've yet to meet many

[Reverend]

Jasper said about sitting on mats: "Otherwise, the untrained and undisciplined mind on psychedelics will end up hurting itself long-term and will not have the discipline to stop drug-use at the appropriate time or otherwise exercise moderation."

Yeah, this was very much my experience. But I stopped for a good long while when my situation finally would not permit any more. I do feel that my initial drug experiences were very much worthwhile anyways, because otherwise I may have continued living in a half-assed way without learning either discipline -or- what is there in the chaotic reaches of possibility.

Beating the dead horse of my original post:
I especially wish that boring white upper-middle class educated people would educate themselves about Christian and Jewish mythology/magic/mysticism before exploring shamanism... to a lesser extent Buddhism and Islam are also accessible because they are from civilized places. Then there are all of those Celtic, Germanic, Norse, Greek, Roman myths and traces of their traditions (not all so civilized, but deep in my culture & many others'). In no way do I feel like these are -better- than Amazon or jungle Africa traditions. They just might be one step more familiar, therefor comprehensible, and would not play into one's desire for exoticism.
To wiggle the perspective just a little: if I was a Black in New Orleans, I would learn Voodoo before I went to West Africa to learn the old religion there.

~-Rev.

[daniel]

actually, Rev, I disagree. I think that many are too alienated from the traditions that seem closer to them - christianity and judiasm - to get anything at all out of them unless they first have some immersive experience in a more primordial context like shamanism.

I could never have started with Western traditions, they seemed utterly farcical to me. I now think that Christ's incarnation was an essential element in the Earth's evolution, but I had to work a long way around to understand how that could be.

Jung is a good bridge - have you read "Answer to Job"?

[gone]

Originally posted by daniel:
I could never have started with Western traditions, they seemed utterly farcical to me. I now think that Christ's incarnation was an essential element in the Earth's evolution, but I had to work a long way around to understand how that could be.I meet many people who share this experience. It’s a treat to see people rediscovering Christianity in a deeper/mystical way; it’s the real deal fairies at the bottom of the garden.

I also agree with Rev that “one’s desire for exoticism” can be a false start. However, all’s well that ends well.

[ August 03, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: gelfer ]

[jezebelle]

Hi gelfer you say:
"I meet many people who share this experience. It’s a treat to see people rediscovering Christianity in a deeper/mystical way; it’s the real deal fairies at the bottom of the garden."

I was born into christianity but like daniel I had to reach it's deeper level by studying other things; like astrology, numerology, american indian systems, steiner, mushrooms, just about everything. Somewhere in there I slowly recognized my purposeful connection. Yet I have deep respect for the jewish faith, taoism, hinduism, and others.
I realized that it doesn't matter how you connect but that you do connect. At some point we all go to one place when its time to jump, and leap into something greater than ourselves. Do we have the courage to quiet the fears of death, nonlove and allow the bigger pattern to emerge.
Everyday is a chance to try again.

[Reverend]

Hey y'all

One thing I wasn't recognizing in my last post was how alienated people can get from these churches who think of God as the Big King -- he is displayed as the Ultimate Authority, so you had better listen or you will burn. Hell is permanent torture if God is the biggest king; he must have the biggest torture chamber, too. Nonsense, and some people will really benefit by going outside those traditions, especially at first.
But when I talked about seeking back to Christianity etc., I was thinking of Jung: he had a visionary experience that he'd better pay attention to old Christian lore or all would be lost, ie, the wisdom of the ages' Christians would be invisible in the new psychology he might have written.
One thing that gave me more respect for seeking after shamanism was reflecting on my musical tastes: I play blues because it is the most satisfying for me, but some (Koko Taylor?) think I'm stealing Black culture by doing this. But Hell, I'm not gonna quit playing what I like! I might as well totally quit if it isn't satisfying.
The thing that kills me is that "shamans" are doctors, priests, maybe others, who fall under the categories that used to be called "primitive" and "savage". This seems like a terrible division to me. But reflecting, I would rather people start with a noble savage assumption than toss aside these folks' wisdom (especially as so many peoples are being threatened with extinction).
I wonder if people are interested in the practices of "primitives" or of magic in general... one thing that is neat about Christian mystics is that they basically survived in a witch-hunt atmosphere, not unlike today's scientism and drug war.

[affe23]

Originally posted by Jasper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Halfglass:
Years of sitting on a mat for what? To know that we are that Thing...the It? the Hindus have been saying that for centuries...or was it the Buddhists? (LOL)It was the Hindus (Tat et sat, or You are That).

Part of the point to sitting on a mat for years is to develop mental discipline, which is necessary for making full use of psychedelics. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm just curious if you think psychedelics are a necessary part of a serious sadhana?

I have done a good deal of exploration with various entheogens but have not interacted with any in a while now nor do I have any plans to do so again either. I am not saying I never will but I honestly don't know if I will. I have found my sadhana (consisting of asana, mantra, meditation, fasting, and puja) to be most healing and sometimes as intense as many of my experiences with entheogens.

I guess I'm just curious since my work with entheogens has been such a strong influence on my life and my development. I'm not sure how powerful these other techniques would be had I not already blasted a few walls down.

Does anyone else maintain an ongoing yogic/tantric/magical practice and if so do you include entheogens as part of this practice?

[Katie]

Does anyone else maintain an ongoing yogic/tantric/magical practice and if so do you include entheogens as part of this practice?I am a healer and meditator. I do not practice traditional meditation but it is meditation nevertheless. I used psychedelics regularly for five years, then when I became serious about my meditation and spiritual path I chose to stop with the psychedelics - mainly because I was having such a blast in meditation and the drugs were interfering with my ability to reach peak states. And the meditation peak states were blowing me away.

I think playing with psychedelics was fundamental for my opening ( by the way, ecstasy was by far the most psychedelic drug for me, more than LSD, go figure...I would find myself in complete alternate 3D worlds on E in waking state, I would be walking around in a completely different reality, just fabulous).

Before drugs I was a buttoned up physicist. The first time I did psychedelics my whole paradigm shifted. I find, though, that now that the door is open, I do not feel the need to return to the drugs. It is not a judgement, just a shift in direction. Also as a healer, I need to stay clear of astral influences and , unfortunately, most drugs, because of toxicity, bust your field. I got fed up of having to fix my energy fields and clearing astrals out my aura.

My experience also is that the clearer my energy fields were - and meditating/fasting will clear you out nicely - the more I eneded up feeling the negative effects of the drugs - all drugs, alcohol and cigarettes included, that I also stopped. I became very sensitive.

So, my choice was to stop the drugs - although I miss my "mind tunnel" travels sometimes, they were very cool ... Would I do psychedelics again ? Probably, in the right setting, for a specific reason, but not as a routine, as I used to do.