The Return of Quetzalcoatl

[daniel]

What follows is the transmission I received over a week or so, during my trip to Brazil to visit the Santo Daime, exactly one year ago. The transmission began during an ayahuasca session and then continued as we took a boat down into the Amazon, eventually spending a week at Jurua, one of the original centers of the Daime. It should be noted that the Santo Daime religion is also centered on the fulfillment of prophecy - the second coming of Christ, not as some individual redeemer, but as a movement to a new level of consciousness, a heart-centered and compassionate way of being in the world.

The experience of receiving this transmission was like a vibrational shift into a different level of consciousness - it was as if all of the study I had been doing and all of the shamanic work and initiations had been preparing me for this moment. I had raised my "vibration" to the point where this deeper level of mind could descend and "lock" onto my consciousness, while under the effects of the medicine. The experience was extremely unpleasant. For days, I was filled with rage and despair over it, as my ego tried to adjust to the power of the archetypal material that was constellating.

I post it now out of a sense of helplessness and near-desolation, and in a state of intense writer's block. I have been trying to write about this experience - and present the entirety of the new paradigm or imprint of what the 2012 transition will be or could be - and the first draft of my book failed to be convincing or to integrate this material properly. I am hoping that by posting it publically, I will help to spark something inside myself, to be able to move forward, or perhaps in hearing responses to it from others I will begin to find the proper distance to it.

* *

Quetzalcoatl Returns

I am an avatar and messenger sent at the end of a kalpa, a world age, to bring a new dispensation for humanity – a new covenant, and a new consciousness.

I am the same spirit who appeared here, in the Mayan period, as Quetzalcoatl and incarnated at various other points in human history. Like Avaloshkitevara, the Tibetan Buddha of Compassion, Quetzalcoatl is an archetypal "god form" that occasionally takes human rebirth to accomplish a specific mission. As foretold, I am also the Tzaddik – "the righteous one" and the "gatherer of the sparks" of the Qabalah – as well as the "Once and Future King" promised by Arthurian legend.

I do not let anything interrupt me in my quest for truth – neither fear nor indifference, poverty nor cynicism. In the realm of thought, I practice warrior discipline. As gravity draws matter to it, I have pulled myself back into manifestation in this realm, from the depths of cosmic space, piece by piece and bit by bit, reassembling the component parts, the sparks of thought, that make up my being – which is, primarily, a form or vibrational level of consciousness.

Soon there will be a great change to your world.

The material reality that surrounds you is beginning to crack apart, and with it all of your illusions. The global capitalist system that is currently devouring your planetary resources will soon self-destruct, leaving many of you bereft.

But understand the nature of paradox: For those who follow my words and open their hearts and their minds – for those who have "ears to hear" – there is no problem whatsoever. What is false must die so what is true can be born.

You are, right now, living at the time of revelation, Apocalypse, and the fulfillment of prophecy. Let there be no doubt. You stand at the edge of the Abyss. What are those shadows that crowd around you? They are the unintegrated aspects of your own psyche, projected into material form. The word "Apocalypse" means "uncovering" – and in these last clock ticks of this world age, all must be revealed, uncovered, so that all can be known.

You have just a few years yet remaining to prepare the vehicle for your higher self. Use them preciously. For those who have gained knowledge of the nature of time, a few years – even a few days, a minute – can be an eternity. For those sleepwalking through reality, time exists only to be wasted – as they too will be wasted, in their turn.

"Reality," as you currently experience it, is something like a waking dream. It is a projection, or let us say an interface, disguising deeper and more intensified levels of being and knowing. For those who are ready and willing, the doors to those other levels now stand open.

Those who have expended their lives in the pursuit of egocentric and material gains – without courage or originality, without fighting for human freedom or the preservation of the planetary environment – will also receive the rewards that they deserve.

The materiality of your universe is a solid-state illusion. What is this universe? It is a poem that writes itself. It is a song that sings itself into being. This universe has no origin and no end.

What you are currently experiencing as the accelerated evolution of technology can now be recognized for what it is: A transition between two forms of consciousness, and two planetary states. Consciousness is technology – the only technology that exists. Everything in this universe is conscious at its own level, and in the process of transformation to higher or lower states.

The first principle of my being is unconditional love. As a rational intelligence, I accept the logic and necessity of the Christ consciousness, that we should love one another as we are loved. Love and devotion are vibrational frequencies that maintain reality. Love can only be given in freedom; therefore, to be human is to be free.

I resonate, at the same time, with the essence of Islam. Islam means submission, surrender, to the will of God – a more polite way of saying this is "Go with the flow." But either formulation is correct. Whatever you do, in fact, resist as you think you might, you are always submitting to God’s will. So why not give the process your joyful assent?

I am in complete harmony, as well, with the Tibetan tradition of Dzogchen. Ultimately, there are no entities – there is neither being, nor nonbeing. From the perspective of nondual awareness, samsara is nirvana. The Apocalypse, the Kali Yuga, the Golden Age – these are all states of mind. Hell is a state of mind. When you eliminate fear and attachment, when you self-liberate, you attain the Golden Age.

This universe spontaneously self-organizes into higher levels of consciousness and wisdom. Underlying all are great cosmic entities or vibrational fields, alternately at play or at rest. Not satisfied with mere enlightenment, the god-form Quetzalcoatl still seeks to puzzle out the workings of these deeper forces – hence the reason for his return to your realm. He and his kind have been granted this world for their continued exploration – made with loving reverence – of the many layers of galactic intelligence, cosmic illusion, daemonic beauty, and telluric transformation. All are invited to participate with them.

The current transition is, simultaneously, a return to origin. The original matrix of this new world reality is the ecstatic limitlessness of your own being. This world – any world – is the ground for a certain level of being. What manifests outward from the ground of being is freedom in time, and freedom from time.

My "doctrine" is not transcendent, but immanent. It is not "somewhere out there." It is here and now. The task of human existence is to transform the Earth, to reconcile spirit and matter in this realm. We go deeper into the physical to reach the infinite. As there are no conceivable limits to this task, God, in His greatness, has granted us a project that is without limit and without end.

Thinking is a part of reality. Thought generates new potentials and possibilities of manifestation. Thought changes the nature of reality. Thought changes the nature of time. As a philosopher, I naturally deify the goddess principle. I venerate Sophia, deity of wisdom, who clothes God’s thoughts in material form, and worship Shakti, the electric current of sexual energy that powers the universe.

The writer of this work is the vehicle of my arrival – my return – to this realm. He certainly did not expect this to be the case. What began as a quest to understand prophecy has become the fulfillment of prophecy. The vehicle of my arrival has been brought to an awareness of his situation in sometimes painful increments and stages of resistance – and this book will follow the evolution of his learning process, as an aid to the reader’s understanding. The vehicle of my arrival had to learn to follow synchronicities, embrace paradoxes, and solve puzzles. He had to enter into a new way of thinking about time and space and consciousness.

Almost apologetically, the vehicle notes that his birthday fell in June, 1966 – 6/66 – "count the number of the Beast: for it is the number of the man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

The Beast prophecied is the "feathered serpent," Quetzalcoatl.

Those who prefer to reject all of this out of hand are welcome to do so. In the Qabalah, the virtue one seeks to establish on the "Earth Plane" is discrimination. It is up to the individual to find his way through the ideas presented here – of course he is entirely free to ignore them altogether.

But be forewarned: The End of Time approaches. The return of Quetzalcoatl foreshadows the imminent closing of the cycle and the completion of the Great Work.

[Lowlight]

Daniel,

I am sorry to hear of your situation.
I think the answer lies in the text you received. You wanting to write all of what may happen in 2012 is too much for anyone to do. If even the Gods are at eternal play and this particular entity is coming back to futher explore then how can you be expected to encapsulate all that will happen? Why not try and set out and expand on the main themes that you see as being of importance rather than trying to formulate an entire panoramic view of what may be to come.

I think changes are to come, and i have been told so my own Oracle. I would sit with your despair and take it right into yourself. force you way through it by becoming it. kindle a light in its darkness by birthing yourself in its womb. Salvia Divinorum once told me in response to a question i asked as to how to heal, "cry for everything you have lost, that is healing". I hope this can be of some help.

Lowlight.

[ November 23, 2004, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: LowlightOracle ]

[tesseract]

Daniel.

THANK YOU.

thank you for handing yourself over to vulnerability

thank you for your sacrifices

thank you for dipping your mind into the oceans of madness

thank you for holding The Light

thank you for holding The Fear

thank you for holding The Pain

thank you for making yourself accessible, and informing my being

You have prophesied. In your despair you are probably closer to God than ever before. I praise your being, and all who have chosen the same path of painful growth.

What you have given to us here deserves careful consideration...I take it very seriously.

[Xael]

Wow. This is very interesting. Thank you for posting it and trusting such a powerful thing with the rest of us. Thank you very much for doing this. I grow more and more interested in your spiritual journey as time goes on, and your progress seems astounding. In something this personal and intertwined into every facet of existence for you, I can imagine the difficulty of that vulnerability and confusion, and can almost experience a small piece of it myself just by reading your post. I commend you for your bravery, and thank you for helping me, with both your book and your words on this board, for bringing my life into a state of consciousness I may not have experienced otherwise. I may or may not be helping, but I'd like to try anyway.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder how many of these philosophys you already agreed with, or how many of them, and to what extent, you already felt that they may be containing some sort of truth or logical sense.

As far as trying to write all of this down goes, I can't really supply much help without knowing more specific issues on what is becoming a difficulty. The explanation of the experience was well put enough. However, as to your issues with captivating the entire spectrum involved with the 2012 situation, I'm not sure what exactly it is that is troubling your writing ability. Do you lack possibilities? Are you unable to see every angle properly? Can you not see the points of view properly?

If it's more stylistic and structural, starting it off just as you wrote the post would be appropriate, followed by a summation of the concept itself and where it comes from, and then some of the ideas as to what it means, ranging in possibility as far as the possibility of psychological change, to the possibility of taking the concept literally in the form of an actual end of days event. Supply some current events as a way to possibly give some ideas on things that may develop into problems by 2012 that may have some sort of influence on the prophecy. Maybe confront why the idea, although only theoretical and spiritual in it's nature presently, is not as well known is it perhaps should be. If this is supposed to be a very long piece, comparison of mayan spiritual consciousness and that of modern consciousness would seem appropriate. Perhaps, as you seem to be a follower of Gurdjieff's ideas, try and supply some astrological movement or something of the sort to help add an intriguing section to the piece.

Well..I've dragged on enough. This may or may not be helpful..I don't know. Maybe it will help that spark you are looking for go off. Good luck, and try not to stress to much.

[ November 23, 2004, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Xael ]

[michael heany]

You probably already have noted this, but the Oneness celebration this year started on June 6

6/6/2004
666

666 is the number of the Beast.

Beast = Be a St. (?)

(I've been picking up on these things in language, here and there, many of them merely matters of chance?)

[Humming]

Thanks for posting this Daniel. I've been wondering what angle your book would be from, is this narrative of your Mayan journey going to be the crux of the book, or is this just the introduction? Who is your target audience? How will the book be marketed?

Your experience related here resonates intensely with transmissions that I have been given through the mushroom intelligence.

"But understand the nature of paradox: For those who follow my words and open their hearts and their minds – for those who have 'ears to hear' – there is no problem whatsoever. What is false must die so what is true can be born."

This is exactly what I came to the other day, when pondering the apocalypse vision. I feel that the change won't be so much fire and brimstone, but rather, there is a voice which will speak to some, and not others. Those who have prepared themselves will be able to actualize new frequencies of consciousness, and those who have not prepared will simply not be able to actualize a new modality of consciousness.

The discussion of technology and consciousness is definitely crucial. People need to realize that when we can focus technology to compliment and intensify our consciousness instead of distracting and fracturing it, our evolution will soar.

I feel that this transcript is a little self-righteous: those of like mind will be be exalted, while the destroyers will be punished. But I can certainly understand the choice of this voice, the higher forms are often heavy-handed and abruptly direct in their expressions of what is, and what should be.

Hrm, I'll be interested to see what other people have to say. If I had any advice to give, it would be, don't rush the book. If it doesn't feel right, keep working with it. Obviously, this is what you're doing here with this post. My point is, don't feel rushed, like you need to express all of this immediately so that change will begin to occur. We are well on our way already. There is plenty of time, as you mentioned in this excerpt.

[ November 23, 2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[Buzz]

a group of Q'ero shaman were in NYC in 1996. They performed a ritual at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. read here:
http://www.crystalinks.com/incanprophecy.html

just a hunch, but maybe there's something there for you, Daniel.

[nanouk]

i was hoping to find this prophecy eventually, somewhere.
i have been searching...

with love and respect,
pernilla

ps i wrote this before the previous post, but took a phone call before submittin. it was aimed at daniels message. i have been searching for this particular message from quetzacoatl.ds

[ November 23, 2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Nanouk ]

[nanouk]

yes, the pachacuti (:

[zacharius]

hi daniel.

it takes courage to face the great work. it takes courage to accept that perhaps we are not dillitentes, druggies, flakes, criminals and marginal characters with too many pretentions.

it seems like we are drowning in irony. we can recieve the mandate of heaven and crack a joke about it in the same breath. we rend ourselves asunder. do we really need to always doubt ourselves? do we really fear our own power so much that we need to augment the chains of our society with chains of self recrimination?

I'm sure you're aware of the similarities to crowley in your dispensation. he grappled with the book of the law his whole life. perhaps he failed to see the fact behind the metaphor, the action behind the feeling, the walk beyond the talk. I do not know.

The warriors exist daniel. we are scattered and confused. we are wracked with self doubt. we train and work to be ready for the day when we will stand and be counted. the traditions have never vanished, as you well know, but the keepers wear new masks.

perhaps you would do well to ask honestly who this is meant for? the book of the month club, or those who are already waiting for the call to arms?

are you another cult author, or are you a prophet? are you the vehicle of more vague plattitudes, or are you the messenger of the gods? are you a madman , or are you a leader?

the message is not new. it doesn't need someone to just talk about it or write about it. does anyone truly think another book will change anything at this stage?

perhaps this is the question? what are you hoping this will open up to you? where would you like to be? does the shaman's call end on the bookshelf, or the battlefield of the human heart?

in any case, the rightious warriors of heaven have never forgotten their duties, and I trust that you never shall either.

peace out dawg.

[Rob P]

-----
hi Daniel~

It was nice running into
you in the park this afternoon, and then
I came home and read your post..
all i can say (again) is thank you.

seeya
R O B
-----

[sidecross]

I have invited despair, rage, desolation, and pain into my dwelling; like drunken monkeys they ramble on and on. I have accepted them and we coexist.

I no longer sniff out expectation. This position is my cutting edge. When it finally goes dull and no longer has an edge I too may be invited in.

[jezebelle]

Sweet Daniel you go,
I want to draw your attention to Steiner (Egyptian Myths and Mysteries) and his explaination of how we humans got formed in this cycle of humanity. Remember we as sort human germs were all earth-sun & moon in a sort primeval etheric mist existing in the womb of the highest beings that are connected to our evolution in the earth. The first that arose out of this human germ, when the sun was still connected to us was a sort of chalice that sparkled light in cosmic space. That original light was love and earth's mission is to develop this love. "Man was, as it were, rooted above in the divine spiritual beings, and these permeated him." But back to the soup. Many other substances were around this chalice to evenually form other beings and planets. Evenually these beings of refinement had to leave the earth for its own evolution as sun-beings. "Then the sun began to withdraw itself, taking the finest substances with it. There came a time when the high sun-beings forsook men, and left the coarser substances behind." Because of that the mist cooled to water. Man sank into water but never entirely because the sun-beings left one behind (Yahveh or Jehovah) to help us evolve in the dark water in the form of tone; which helped us to form-shape as it were. For the first time light shone on man from the outside of the womb and he experienced the light and breathed this light. "What now streamed into him appeared to man as two brothers. Formerly, man the consciousness said,"I have a dark form but I am connected with the eternal being. Who was it that destroyed this feeling of connection? It was the air-breath that entered into man - Typhon. This is where the Egyptian myths come in showing how we formed into our present state.
There is a whole lot more going on in this story.
My point is . . . what a big event this was in the course of our evolution. We are reaching this big moment again, and as before we will be assisted. We all have our parts to play and we will reach the next stage. I can't think of a better person than you to play your role, you've got a great handle on the whole thing. Fear not the story will find you and you'll be writing your ass off.
Love and respect, jez

[Phlash]

I agree with all who have said that it was very brave of you to put that out there. I also thank you for helping me to clarify my own thinking on a variety of important topics.

So its with the risk of cutting against the grain of the group and pissing you off that I post this reply.

I am open to the possibility that the revelation you received was "real", but I must confess that reading your post set off my spider-sense.

In reading your recent posts I have noticed that your tone seems to have changed to that of a teacher or sage. For some reason this change alarms me; I am worried that you may be slipping into a kind of charismatic leader persona. Your current post has not eased my mind.

While I think you are very smart and have a great way of unpacking a lot of what seems to be going on right now (a skill that I value highly) I am intuitively recoiling from the tone of your statement. I want to be clear that I agree with much of what you conveyed (the underlying truth, I mean), but you seem to have shifted into placing yourself at the center of the drama that is unfolding. By nature I am skeptical of people who identify themselves as prophets who carry special messages for the people, even if I agree with the message.

Having said that, I am very interested in what you have to say about 2012, and would love to read a book by you on the subject. My suggestion would be for you to find away to find some way of writing that does not seem like you are founding a new age religion.

Perhaps humor would help. If there is one thing I have learned on my journeys, its that as dire as it all seems at times, the universe has an incredible sense of humor.

Peace.

[John Hoopes]

Dearest Daniel,

I must say I agree with Phlash, who seems to have a very keen sense of you at this moment. Pay attention to what he says about humor and find some reason to laugh at yourself. The heavy prophetic voice is not working well and it runs the risk of trivializing the insightful and quite useful observations you've made. I'd say burn that man and see what rises from the ashes.

You are clearly struggling with a great weight. Ease it off a bit, allow the waters to become calm and mirror-like, and listen for that still, small voice. You don't want to become the subject of a ridiculing essay by Adam Parfrey!

It's the End of the World as We Know It... Again (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html)

For some reason, I've felt compelled tonight to post images as well as words. Here's one I've selected for you.

Shalom,

John

http://www.ku.edu/~hoopes/Swayambhu.jpg

©2004 John W. Hoopes

[ November 23, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: John Hoopes ]

[Gift Horse]

my 2 cents;

I interpreted your use of "I am the avatar...ect" as the transmission was saying to you. I assumed that you were not refering to yourself.

I am particuliarily interested in Quetzalcoatl. Before I sat down at the computer, I was adjusting the last of my own handpainted tiles surrounding my bath tub, a serpent with a head at both ends- Quetzalcoatl.

I would also be interested in hearing the whole story. That is, the ayahausca ceremony, a descriptive breakdown of the events leading up to the "transmission".

Exciting stuff. I'm resonating. smile.gif

[nanouk]

yes i noted the word 'avatar' also, and 'vehicle'.
therefore i have no objectives to this message.

i cannot put my own into words yet either...

[craazyman]

In the 1840s an English sociologist, Charles Mackay, wrote a book that has become a classic, "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds", in which he chronicled the many manifestations of crowd psychology throughout history. A notable chapter in his book covered what he called "Modern Prophecies", including many of the Day of Judgement variety. It is both sad and amusing reading, highlighting, as it does, the poignant frailty of the human condition.

Daniel, in my view you have tremendous creativity, intelligence and insight into some of the strange forces that underlie our reality, which you think and write about in a way that is always illuminating and always thought provoking. Your book, BOTH, in my view was a pathbreaking book, important and profound, and I will be there at the bookstore with cash in hand for your second book, I will not wait for it to arrive at the library. I hope you stay on track and hang in there with a fusion of imaginative possibility anchored by, for lack of a better phrase, scientific objectivity. I hope my bona fides are established.

Perhaps I have my head in the sand, but I think we, humanity that is, can grasp the substantive elements of what Quezequatl has to say direcly and plainly, without his thunderous end of the world threats and intonations. I see him essentially as a dark comedian, who, when he takes his mask off back stage, is a frail and tragic figure, who needs us far more than we need him, sort of like the Wizard of Oz.

[michael heany]

Let me add that I worry about these things. I wonder how its all going to end up, and my decisions seem weighty.

But then I look back on my past, and its clear that things happened for a reason. People entered my life at the moment that was neccesary. I think to myself "What if I hadn't seen that book review of BOTH?". But it was meant to be. So it will be with the future.

Remember Rilke. He had to wait awhile before his Duino Elegies came out, and with them the Sonnets to Orpheus. But it happened.

The book will be written. Maybe at this point do something in your schedule that's unusual. Go to a country western bar. Something that goes against the normal grain?

[Charlie]

Hi, Daniel:

I have been trying to write about this experience - and present the entirety of the new paradigm or imprint of what the 2012 transition will be or could be - and the first draft of my book failed to be convincing or to integrate this material properly.”

As far as the new paradigm: I don’t know what’s in your draft, but for me, there are too many parts of the puzzle still missing. Who knows--maybe the original Atlantis has really been found, and new information will be revealed; or the Pyramids in Italy will uncover more codices that clue us in. God knows what else might appear in the coming years to unfog the looking glass…

Besides all that, the future is constantly being influenced by the past and present, and even if every prophet from St John to Nostradamus to the Hopis all said exactly the same thing, it wouldn't necessarily make the prophecy come true. The very nature of ever-changing, universal energy, both in destruction and creation, constantly puts permutations and combinations—Probability--into play. No one will really know exactly what happens on December 21, 2012, until that day arrives. We can only make our best guess, based on inference.

In short, Daniel, I think you have to run with what you have.

As far as the Quetzalcoatl “material”:

In it’s raw form as presented here, it unfortunately invites the well-placed (and certainly well-intentioned) criticism that Phlash and John H. have made.

I see a very clear distinction between the writer and the message. I don´t believe you are delusional or even presumptuous, but a lot of critics may think otherwise. You run the risk of having 800 pages of well-researched and meticulously thought-out material being thrown out the window due to one prophetic passage. To publish as is or change it in some way…no one can help you with that. You must go deeper still, and find the answer for yourself. I have no doubts you will arrive at the right decision, whatever that may be.

As far as writer’s block: I would guess it comes from the nature of the material itself, and perhaps from a small portion of denial as well.

Judging from your first book, and what you post here daily, I would imagine your second book is a synthesis of personal experience with established shamanic, religious and scientific thought, forming a coherent theory. How can you possible reconcile that with a sentence like “The writer of this work is the vehicle of my arrival – my return – to this realm.”

You cannot. Which leads to the second thing, denial.

Perhaps it is the last shreds, vestiges, bleeding fingernails of a NYC intellectual clawing onto the cliff called Rational Wisdom…

To put it another way and give you an objective frame of reference, read below the passage written by Jose Arguelles, whose work you are very familiar with. Does it change your opinion of him or his theories? If so, how?

As Valum Votan, I am closer of the cycle. I complete the prophecy cycle of Pacal Votan and Quetzalcoatl which defines the year 2012 as the conclusion of a schedule of historic and evolutionary cycles…. I, Valum Votan, declare that I am a plain messenger, the messenger of the new time… I am yet the revealer and renewer of the cycle of prophecy and time established by Pacal Votan and Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl, and perpetuated by the lineage of the Chilam Balam.

Whatever you decide or arrive at, as always, I wish you all the best.

Charlie

[michael heany]

http://www.artprints-on-demand.co.uk/noframes/michelangelo/daniel.htm

Anyways, it's a back and forth between seriousness and levity, it seems...

[Phlash]

Synchronicity department...Kristoff's opinion piece in the Times today may be a cautionary tale...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/24/opinion/24kristof.html?oref=login

November 24, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Apocalypse (Almost) Now
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

If America's secular liberals think they have it rough now, just wait till the Second Coming.

The "Left Behind" series, the best-selling novels for adults in the U.S., enthusiastically depict Jesus returning to slaughter everyone who is not a born-again Christian. The world's Hindus, Muslims, Jews and agnostics, along with many Catholics and Unitarians, are heaved into everlasting fire: "Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and . . . they tumbled in, howling and screeching."

Gosh, what an uplifting scene!

If Saudi Arabians wrote an Islamic version of this series, we would furiously demand that sensible Muslims repudiate such hatemongering. We should hold ourselves to the same standard.

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, the co-authors of the series, have both e-mailed me (after I wrote about the "Left Behind" series in July) to protest that their books do not "celebrate" the slaughter of non-Christians but simply present the painful reality of Scripture.

"We can't read it some other way just because it sounds exclusivistic and not currently politically correct," Mr. Jenkins said in an e-mail. "That's our crucible, an offensive and divisive message in an age of plurality and tolerance."

Silly me. I'd forgotten the passage in the Bible about how Jesus intends to roast everyone from the good Samaritan to Gandhi in everlasting fire, simply because they weren't born-again Christians.

I accept that Mr. Jenkins and Mr. LaHaye are sincere. (They base their conclusions on John 3.) But I've sat down in Pakistani and Iraqi mosques with Muslim fundamentalists, and they offered the same defense: they're just applying God's word.

Now, I've often written that blue staters should be less snooty toward fundamentalist Christians, and I realize that this column will seem pretty snooty. But if I praise the good work of evangelicals - like their superb relief efforts in Darfur - I'll also condemn what I perceive as bigotry. A dialogue about faith must move past taboos and discuss differences bluntly. That's what blue staters and red staters need to do about religion and the "Left Behind" books.

For starters, it's worth pointing out that those predicting an apocalypse have a long and lousy record. In America, tens of thousands of followers of William Miller waited eagerly for Jesus to reappear on Oct. 22, 1844. Some of these Millerites had given away all their belongings, and the no-show was called the Great Disappointment.

In more recent times, the best-selling nonfiction book of the 1970's was Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth," selling 18 million copies worldwide with its predictions of a Second Coming. Then, one of the hottest best sellers in 1988 was a booklet called "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988." Oops.

Being wrong has rarely been so lucrative.

Now we have the hugely profitable "Left Behind" financial empire, whose Web site flatly says that the authors "think this generation will witness the end of history." The site sells every "Left Behind" spinoff imaginable, including screen savers, regular prophecies sent to your mobile phone, children's versions of the books, audiobooks, graphic novels, videos, calendars, music and a $6.50-a-month prophesy club. This isn't religion, this is brand management.

If Mr. LaHaye and Mr. Jenkins honestly believe that the end of the world may be imminent, why not waive royalties? Why don't they use the millions of dollars in profits to help the poor - and increase their own chances of getting into heaven?

Mr. Jenkins told me that he gives 20 to 40 percent of his income to charity, and that's commendable. But there are millions more where that came from. Mr. LaHaye and Mr. Jenkins might spend less time puzzling over obscure passages in the Book of Revelation and more time with the straightforward language of Matthew 6:19, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth." Or Matthew 19:21, where Jesus advises a rich man: "Sell your possessions and give the money to the poor. . . . It will be hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

So I challenge the authors to a bet: if the events of the Apocalypse arrive in the next 10 years, then I'll donate $500 to the battle against the Antichrist; if it doesn't, you donate $500 to a charity of my choosing that fights poverty - and bigotry.

Gentlemen, do we have a deal?

[zacharius]

I think it's wise to be cautious of mythology understood litterally. going back is not the way forward obviously.

nevertheless, these symbols persist, these symbols return. because they are archetypes. real truth requires no arguement. mythology is the resonant framework of symbols that connect the abstract to the concrete.

I think there is however, also a danger in demystifying our experience too much. does everything need ironic distance? does everything need an air of apologetic humour for perhaps bruising someone's secular expectations? I tend not to think so.

the transmission strikes me as poetry that speaks to the universal, but you seem to be treating it as journalism. Quetzalcoatl doesn't require anyone to beleive. It exists regardless.

there are larger gods than the gods of journalism and larger minds than the rational mind.

[Phlash]

Zacharius,

Was that directed at my posts? If not, please ignore this, if so...

I would happily view Daniel's post as poetry. My fear is that the way I understood him, Daniel meant it more literally than merely poetically.

Does everything need "ironic distance" or "apologetic humor"? I suppose not, but if one loses sight of irony and humor in these woods one may quickly find oneself on a dark path.

The Kristoff article demonstrates how often people predicting the end-time are wrong, and how lucrative the prophecy business can be.

Why would we presume that Daniel's transmission is any more or less valid that any other end-time "prophet" of any stripe that has come before him? How is what he is saying so different from what the Rapture people are saying?

My feeling is that as the transformation approaches the reality of the situation will be more and more accessible to more and more people, and thus there is no need for "prophecy". As you say, "Quetzalcoatl doesn't require anyone to beleive. It exists regardless".

[Buzz]

Thought I'd throw in some of my thoughts of Quetzalcoatl, which is the Aztec name for the earlier Mayan Kukulkan, the feathered serpent.
There has been a bit of talk about Castenada on another thread recently. In his 4th book, Tales of Power he finally gets the "sorcerers explanation". In this treatise, by his mentor Don Juan, he is introduced to the concept of what some are now calling the Binary Soul Doctrine. It is the concept that there are two animating energies that combine with our bodies to make each of us individually. What DJ called the "Tonal" is what we might identify as the "soul". What he called the "Nagual" is our spirit. They each have characteristic, independant operations. The problem is - with modern people living in the western economic slave/master socio-political, etc..., well, you know, our crappy world - is that we are not integrating soul and spirit. To be integrated, one becomes complete, a man of knowledge, a survivor of death (though hardly in what we would presently call the physical, 3D form).

Don't want to get too wordy here, but, if you have some grasp on the concept above. Now, I would tell you that, again, in what i have both stumbled across, and researched, that the "Soul" is represented by a bird. The "Spirit" is represented by a serpent. Thinking in terms of these symbols, one may be able to visualize a fully integrated man (or woman) as a combination of man and bird. A "Feathered Serpent", if you will.

So, Quetzalcoatl, either as symbol or god, is what we can aspire to become. By blending soul (which will diminish upon the death of a regular man) with the immortal spirit, one experiences transformation, and avoids an unconscious death.
Whether Quetzalcoatl returns physically to this plane to enlighten us or the power to integrate suddenly appears is unimportant to me, i only pray and wish it happens, preferably before we totally kill this blue pearl floating in space.

[sidecross]

“…before we totally kill this blue pearl floating in space.”

Our Earth is some 4.5 billion years old. If this was viewed as a 12 month year, we humans arrived two second before midnight on December31st.

Like a train running off the cliff everything went smoothly before the track ended.

[nanouk]

my 'higher self' told me last year (amongst other things)that anti-christ was coming to surface soon. anti-christ, 'it' said, was only the end of christian/vatican control over the world and the birth of a new higher consciousness, the re-birth being metaphysical rather than physical.

the 'noise' is so loud by now surely 'they' must hear it? (:

[nanouk]

do we know a 'good' catholic to run for pope?
*lol*

[nanouk]

Wonderful!

The Justified and the Ancient by KLF was just played on BBC 6 Music!!!
:D

[forteanajones]

Daniel,

After all the great stuff that's been said above, there isn't really much of value I feel I can add here, except that I am not as worried as others have indicated they were. Your struggles with coming to terms with or integrating the new material strikes me as a possible attachment to a particular view or paradigm which the greater part of you is attempting to annihilate or absorb, and I trust that your discerning mind will handle this transition correctly.

Regarding the actual source and nature of the transmission, and hopefully wiithout burdening people with a lot of detail or offending with my perspective, it's my belief that the Quetzalcoatl transmission came from either a non-human sentient entity (below God's station), or it came from the Quetzalcoatl essence of the world avatar archetype you have talked about, which in my language is a manifestation of God, and that it was a genuine reaffirmation of the transformative process which is happening now, and not necessarily a message/signal that a particular deity or entity is going to physically manifest itself here, since (again, in my view) this has already taken place.

As others have suggested, go deeper, keep challenging yourself, take breaks when appropriate, and I'm confidant you'll find what you're looking for.

[Buzz]

jezebelle, thanks for the story in your post #190. By that description, Yahweh sounds like the "human mold" that Castanada wrote about.

Here's something I found at another forum; from the Kabbala.

Adam faces the serpent in the tree of life.

Adam: "Many times have I stood within this courtyard and begged admission to my Father's house and you have refused it me and sent me back to wander in darkness. True it is that I was fashioned out of the dirt and that my maker could not confer upon me the boon of immortality. But no more shall you send me away, for wandering in the darkness, I have discovered that the Almighty has decreed my salvation because He has sent out the most hidden mystery. His only begotten who did take away upon Himself the world fashioned by the Demiurgus. Upon the elements of that world was He crucified and from Him has poured forth the blood of my salvation. And God, entering into His creation, has quickened it and established therein a road that leads to himself.

While my Maker could not give me immortality, immortality was inherent in the very dust of which I was composed, for before the world was fabricated and before the Demiurgus became the Regent of Nature, the Eternal Life had impressed itself upon the face of the Cosmos. This is its sign--the cross. Do you now deny me entrance? I, who have at last learned the mystery of myself?"

Serpent: "He who is aware, IS, Behold!"

Gazing about him, Adam finds himself in a radiant place, in the midst of which stands a tree with flashing jewels for fruit and entwined about its trunk, a flaming winged serpent crowned with a diadem of stars.

"Who are you?" Adam demands to know.

"I", the serpent answers, "am Satan who was stoned; I am the Adversay, the lord who is against you, the one who pleads for your destruction before the Eternal Tribunal. I was your enemy upon the day that you were formed. I have led you into temptation. I have delivered you into the hands of evil. I have maligned you. I have striven ever to achieve your undoing. I am the guardian of the Tree of Knowledge and I have sworn that no one whom I can lead astray shall partake of its fruits."

Adam: "For uncounted ages have I been your servant. In my ignorance, I listened to your words and they led me into paths of sorrow. You have placed in my mind dreams of power and when I struggled to realize these dreams, they brought me nothing but pain. You have sowed in me the seeds of desire and when I lusted after the things of flesh, agony was my only recompense. You have sent me false prophets and false reasoning, and when I strove to grasp the magnitude of truth, I found your laws were false and only dismay rewarded my strivings. I AM DONE WITH YOU FOREVER, O ARTFUL SPIRIT!!!"
"I have tired of your world of illusions. No longer will I labor in your vineyards of iniquity! Get behind me, tempter, and the host of your temptations. There is no happiness, no peace, no good, no future in all the doctrines of selfishness, hate, and passion preached by you. All these things do I cast aside, RENOUNCED IS YOUR RULE FOREVER!"

Then the serpent makes answer: "Behold, Adam, the nature of your adversary." The serpent disappears in a blinding sunburst of radiance and in its place stands an angel resplendant in shining, golden garments with great scarlet wings that spread from one corner of the heavens to the other. Dismayed and awestruck, Adam falls down before the divine creature, who continues to speak:

"I am the Lord who is against you and thus accomplishes your salvation. You have hated me, but through the ages yet to be, you shall bless me, for I have led you out of the sphere of Demiurgus. I have turned you against the illusion of worldliness. I have weaned you of desire. I have awakened in your soul the immortality of which I myself partake, Follow me, Adam, for I and the Way, The Truth, and the Life!"

[daniel]

Thank you all so much for your fabulous thoughts and comments. They are deeply appreciated. It felt good to put this out into the e-ether – and it was difficult to do so. I will address and answer some specific comments below.

As a symbol, Quetzalcoatl represents the integration of "heaven and earth," spirit and matter. It seems that this is the ultimate goal of the Western path, and that our development of rationality and technology – although they seem to have temporarily pulled us away from the earth and the earthly - are actually aspects of our planetary evolution into new thresholds of intensity, new levels of consciousness. However, somehow, consciousness now has to intensify to the point where we can take control of the unleashed forces of technology. I suppose this is why I consider the presumed theft of the election through electronic means to be so important – it is a crack through which people may begin to question our unconscious and naive subservience to technological progress. Questions can lead to more questions. If the Apocalypse means uncovering or revealing, then we have to bring a greater light into the darker aspects of our individual psyches as well as the unconscious darkness that our current civilization represents and expresses.

Xael: "Just out of curiousity, I wonder how many of these philosophys you already agreed with, or how many of them, and to what extent, you already felt that they may be containing some sort of truth or logical sense."

Many of these ideas I had thought about and studied in some form, but I would not say I had the kind of complete and confident realization of them that came through in this message. My notebook leading up to this is interesting to me – I was studying Jung and Eddinger’s book God’s Answer to Jung, as well as Maya Cosmos and the idea of the wayob or spirit companion, also Gebser. I like what Dion Fortune had to say about her reception of the transmission of the text of The Cosmic Doctrine: that there was nothing in it she couldn’t perhaps have expressed herself, in some way, so she leaves it open to the reader to make up their own mind whether the message belongs to the realm of psychology (she was a trained psychologist or something more numinous or transcendent.

Humming: "I feel that the change won't be so much fire and brimstone, but rather, there is a voice which will speak to some, and not others. Those who have prepared themselves will be able to actualize new frequencies of consciousness, and those who have not prepared will simply not be able to actualize a new modality of consciousness."

If the psyche is revealing its reality in increasingly evident increments, then perhaps everyone will get what they think they want – fire and brimstone for some, new modes of perception for others. Perhaps the Fundamentalists will even get their ascension to the Heaven they desire, but their "rapture" would definitely be my definition of a hell – a controlled society of repressed impulses and depressing judgements.

Humming: "The discussion of technology and consciousness is definitely crucial. People need to realize that when we can focus technology to compliment and intensify our consciousness instead of distracting and fracturing it, our evolution will soar."

Yes – a big mistake in one edge of New Age-ism (Arguelles falls into it) is to dismiss technology and not recognize it as a legitimate aspect of our development. However- technology will have to be repurposed and reconceived according to different aims and a different understanding.

Humming: "I feel that this transcript is a little self-righteous: those of like mind will be be exalted, while the destroyers will be punished. But I can certainly understand the choice of this voice, the higher forms are often heavy-handed and abruptly direct in their expressions of what is, and what should be."

I agree with you about the heavyhandedness, but I suppose I would say that that may be the way that Gods tend to speak.

zacharius: it takes courage to accept that perhaps we are not dillitentes, druggies, flakes, criminals and marginal characters with too many pretentions."

yes i agree with you – the "left" counterculture has generally not been up to the challenge of simply taking itself seriously – which doesn’t mean losing a sense of humor.

z: "I'm sure you're aware of the similarities to crowley in your dispensation. he grappled with the book of the law his whole life. perhaps he failed to see the fact behind the metaphor, the action behind the feeling, the walk beyond the talk. I do not know."

yes i have been writing about crowley a bit. The jungian idea is that archetypes seek to constellate in the human reality, and they seem to do this in stages. Crowley, for reasons I can go into, received an archetypal download, but his ego was not capable of holding or integrating it at that point. (It is interesting, and one of the most problematic aspects of my first draft, that sexuality is deeply connected with this). The line in the Gospel of Thomas, "Blessed is the man who eats a lion and the lion becomes man, but cursed is the man that is devoured by the lion and the man becomes lion," would seem to be a comment on the difficulty of integrating archetypal material into the ego when the archetype descends or constellates. I was very lucky that my friend Jyoti was with me – she is a shamanic healer and also a trained Jungian analyst, and had dealt with archetypal material herself in the form of "the Mother," from whom she channels messages.

Z: "are you another cult author, or are you a prophet? are you the vehicle of more vague plattitudes, or are you the messenger of the gods? are you a madman , or are you a leader?"

I suspect that I am some kind of shaman and my "medicine" is in the form of ideas that can be used, appropriated, ignored by others as they see fit.

Phlash: "I want to be clear that I agree with much of what you conveyed (the underlying truth, I mean), but you seem to have shifted into placing yourself at the center of the drama that is unfolding. By nature I am skeptical of people who identify themselves as prophets who carry special messages for the people, even if I agree with the message."

I honestly didn’t mean to make that shift. I was simply trying to write a book about these prophecies, trying to understand them, and then this other shit happened – as I said it has been very disconcerting and not very pleasant, although of course also seductive and tantalizing. I also resist those who identify themselves as prophets. However I would say that the jist of this prophecy is that each individual has to make the shift for themselves – I am not in anyway saying I am some kind of guru figure who can help them accomplish it. I am exactly on the same level as everyone else – as the Mayan greeting has it, "I am another yourself." Generally I feel like an intersection point where these ideas have been coming together and can be balanced out – that is why in interesting ways my connection to the Beats and the secular artistic culture of New York of the 1950s and 60s seems to be necessary grounding. What seems to be the case, from my perspective, is that this framework needs a specific embodiment in order to become active in the world in a particular way (the archetype constellating), and I am fulfilling that sort of impersonal function.

craazyman: "Perhaps I have my head in the sand, but I think we, humanity that is, can grasp the substantive elements of what Quezequatl has to say direcly and plainly, without his thunderous end of the world threats and intonations. I see him essentially as a dark comedian, who, when he takes his mask off back stage, is a frail and tragic figure, who needs us far more than we need him, sort of like the Wizard of Oz."

hmmm... gotta think about this comment more... don’t see why Quetz would be particularly "frail and tragic," but of course the unmasking of any idol is a good thing unless it starts to become a boring adolescent habit. Perhaps we have become a bit addicted to the unmasking/undressing of idols. In my first draft, I perhaps went out of my way to unmask and undress myself before anyone else could get to it. This especially in looking at my own unintegrated situation regarding women and sexuality.

Charlie: "I would imagine your second book is a synthesis of personal experience with established shamanic, religious and scientific thought, forming a coherent theory. How can you possible reconcile that with a sentence like "The writer of this work is the vehicle of my arrival – my return – to this realm."
You cannot."

I agree – yet that is the paradox facing me, somehow I have to try. And I am especially concerned because I want the book to be a bridge between those who are still in the previous mindset and paradigm and those who are transitioning or transforming or beginning to remember the underlying spiritual essence of reality. I feel that the two worlds are parting now at a ferocious rate, and my work is really not meant for the New Edge/New Age folks who already get it, but to reach out to those who are still wavering.

Charlie: "Which leads to the second thing, denial.
Perhaps it is the last shreds, vestiges, bleeding fingernails of a NYC intellectual clawing onto the cliff called Rational Wisdom…"

i don’t know what you mean – what am I in denial of?

Charlie: "To put it another way and give you an objective frame of reference, read below the passage written by Jose Arguelles, whose work you are very familiar with. Does it change your opinion of him or his theories? If so, how?"

I think that Arguelles is correct about his relation to Votan (though we still don’t know what reincarnation really means – perhaps nonlocal correspondence or resonance to some previously existing form-vehicle of consciousness is a more palatable way to think about it?). However I think the problem with Arguelles is that the lion devoured him, not the other way around.

Phlash: "Why would we presume that Daniel's transmission is any more or less valid that any other end-time "prophet" of any stripe that has come before him? How is what he is saying so different from what the Rapture people are saying?"

I would say that the Fundamentalists are intuiting (as well as helping to create) the reality that we are now in the Apocalypse (an archetype that is now constellating at the earliest point that it could manifest, when technology really allows us to annihilate the planet’s life-world in a way that was not previously possible), however their way of approaching the situation is regressive and literal. Their mindset is a regression into a previous form of consciousness – the magical – rather than a progression into the integral consciousness that Gebser writes about, characterized by "time freedom," based on integration of different layers or phases of consciousness.

Phlash: "My feeling is that as the transformation approaches the reality of the situation will be more and more accessible to more and more people, and thus there is no need for "prophecy"."

Perhaps you are right, and perhaps you are wrong. I suppose it depends on your definition of "need." My sense - and the logic of my trajectory over the last years - is that this indeed did "need" to be articulated, as a kind of clarification. Without a clear imprint of what is happening and how it is happening, we are going to find it very difficult to get there in some decent shape.

Buzz: "the "Soul" is represented by a bird. The "Spirit" is represented by a serpent. Thinking in terms of these symbols, one may be able to visualize a fully integrated man (or woman) as a combination of man and bird. A "Feathered Serpent", if you will."

William Irwin Thompson notes that it is similar to the caudecus of Hermes, as well as the rising of the kundalini-snake to the crown chakra.

forteana: "it's my belief that the Quetzalcoatl transmission came from either a non-human sentient entity (below God's station), or it came from the Quetzalcoatl essence of the world avatar archetype you have talked about, which in my language is a manifestation of God, and that it was a genuine reaffirmation of the transformative process which is happening now, and not necessarily a message/signal that a particular deity or entity is going to physically manifest itself here, since (again, in my view) this has already taken place."

The transmission is quite clear that what it represents is not an individual entity of any sort, but a vibrational level of consciousness that is available to all.

[Marty]

"Honesty,without compassion and understanding is not honest, but subtle hostility. -Rose N. Franzblau

For him that confesses, shams are over and realities have begun.... -William James

[Halfglass]

Daniel I could almost feel myself as you, describing; your approach to 'this or that' but as that 'thing' moves, it turns into another reason for being of interest or importance.

I think it's really a game man. Seriously. We, you ,I ,she, we...We DID this! It's the Hindu thing.

WE ARE IT!

I think there's a play --it's the only way the IT could do what has been done. Quetzalcoatl is the psychedelic, the forbiden fruit!

[sidecross]

Whether this is a quasi-coat or Quetzalcoatl I have not a clue. I do have a notion that we take ourselves way too seriously.

Our vanity may be the root of our species mayhem. Whether we develop technologies or a philosophical labyrinth we certainly have lost our way. Our extinction as a species will not be bound by such vanity.

The already 99% of specie extinction certainly did not need such symbolic mumbo-jumbo; hubris and vanity will do us in.

[daniel]

sidecross,

Or perhaps curt dismissal of the possibility of being serious is one way we keep each other down, and prevent development from taking place.

I don't think I have lost my sense of humor about the whole thing - it may not have come through in the last posts. I agree that vanity is a cause of species mayhem, and I think the attitude we might try to adopt would be one that combines humility with courage.

As for "species extinction," all I can say is that I think the Earth has been preparing the arrival of higher consciousness in a teleological manner from the beginning of life here. Consider the otherwise inexplicable history of "punctuated evolution," sudden quantum leaps into much greater complexity with an ever-increasing mental ability. The origin of language is still entirely a mystery - language is an entire system, and it seems impossible that it evolved from caveman grunts to complex thought in some plodding way. It is as if the ground is prepared for the new leap, and then the leap happens.

In The Self-Aware Universe, Goswami notes that along with the upward causation of matter to life to mind, there may be downward causation - from consciousness, which he believes is the ultimate ground of being, rather than matter, evolving through "tangled hierarchies". One way I am thinking of Quetzalcoatl is as the moment when upward causation and downward causation meet.

[Thom]

Daniel,

I'm currently in India and studying Sri Aurobindo's work, and wonder whether you are aware of the many similarities between "Quetzalcoatl conciousness" and the "supramental conciousness" much discussed by Aurobindo?

I was also intrigued to note that you recieved your transmission "exactly a year ago." You might be interested in this,

Sri Aurobindo: "The 24th November 1926 was the descent of Krishna into the physical. Krishna is not the supramental Light. The descent of Krishna would mean the descent of the Overmind Godhead preparing, though not itself actually, the descent of the Supermind and Ananda. Krishna is the Anandamaya; he supports the evolution through the Overmind leading it towards his Ananda."

There are also many similarites between Aurobindo and Gebser. Aurobindo's Supramental Being is almost identical (as far as I can see) with Gebser manifested Integral Structure.

You write: "Goswami notes that along with the upward causation of matter to life to mind, there may be downward causation - from consciousness, which he believes is the ultimate ground of being"

I'll have to check out Goswami. This is exactly what Aurobindo is saying. What appeals to me most about him is that he wrote so much, books, articles, essays, reviews etc that he seems to have assessed just about everything in terms of the Supramental Being. Every one of his books I pick up here seems to pour forth a wealth of lucid meditation on the "new conciousness structure." For me, exciting times.

Anyway, apologies if you've already read Aurobindo!

"What is false must die so what is true can be born"
"We go deeper into the physical to reach the infinite"

Yes and yes. Good luck manifesting the work!

(Note: Until now I have posted under username "kris-ifans")

[Halfglass]

Daniel if you like Goswami, I implure you; read "Stalking the wild Pendulum" --it's not about the end of days but it's near to this whole bigger hierarchy line of thought--that the reason for our being here is built upon the movment of the 'very tiny' onward and up. But as well he (Bentov) was into where it is going. All mixed in with the quantum etc. If you haven't read it brother, the spirit is mad 'cause I sent it to you for some reason, and in those days The Earth Mind was as much at the controls as "I"! LOL!

[Lowlight]

Daniel, I am interested to know, in what way did the transmission occur? Was it as a definite voice? a feeling of what was being communicated? Were there visuals? if so of what kind and intensity? how long did all of this take? was it continuous or spaced out? sorry for all the questions! obviously i understand if you feel you cannot relate any of this or do not wish to.

Peace

[Buzz]

this is too weird Daniel. I saw a caduesus at a Kundalini website the day before my last post, and yes, I agree with William Irwin Thompson. I see it too.

On another note, 21 years ago I made a ceramic sculpture of Quetzalcoatl running up a crumbling stairway that leads to nowhere, sprouting wings about to jump off into the void. I entitled it, Punctuated Equilibrium , which means speedy evolution. A bit of sycronicity.

You also state above, Daniel, that Quetzalcoatl symbolizes the marriage of Heaven and Earth. This goes along with the bird/snake symbolism I mentioned above as Spirit is of God, or Heavens, and Soul is of the Earth (or the moon and perhaps the other planets), or planetary. And as for the 2012 question, the Maya speak of the Serpent Rope descending to Earth at that time. The Cherokee (who like the Maya, also hold the belief that they came here from the Pleides) also prophecy something about a Rattlesnake in the sky, though I can't remember the specifics. I'm seeing the Milky Way as winged serpent.

On another note, concerning technology. I recall not too long ago you believed that technology was a way for the "greys/archons" to led us down to hell, to capture our souls somehow (at least for those addicted to technology). I may have missed some of your transitional posts on the change of mind you've gone through on this. But I am wondering if the Quetzalcoatl transmission had something to do with it?

Personally, I've believed for decades that the ancients had a technology long forgotten. It was a (as Edgar Cayce would say) psychic or occult technology. Not fossil fuel based, though apparently crystals were involved somehow, but mind played a part as well, in somehow influencing the crystals. There is technology and then again there is technology. As long as it is non-polluting I don't have much trouble with it. But, even in Atlantis this power was misused, causing the great destruction.

I'll state here that,though some believe the current human model is doomed to extinction and the new human "homo luminous" will rise from the ashes, i think we are about to see the human race split off into two distinct species. One will return to the forest, the other will go off to explore the heavens. And from some accounts, this has happened before.

sidecross,
I think it is good to retain a sense of humor as well.
I think in your reply to my statement about the blue pearl above, that you are telling me "don't worry, be happy" because we are a rather recent irritant and whatever we do the Earth will survive. All I can say is look at Mars.

[daniel]

Buzz: "concerning technology. I recall not too long ago you believed that technology was a way for the "greys/archons" to led us down to hell, to capture our souls somehow (at least for those addicted to technology). I may have missed some of your transitional posts on the change of mind you've gone through on this. But I am wondering if the Quetzalcoatl transmission had something to do with it?"

I had shed my previous slight Luddite-ism before the Quetzalcoatl "download." My realization was that if reality is maya, illusion, maintained by consciousness, then technology is a necessary means of bootstrapping us up to the next level. Burning Man really helped me to see this. Technology is returned to play – also Marcuse in One-Dimensional Man on the "science of the imagination" that comes after the present-day science.

I do suspect that the Greys are Ahrimanic agents or the spirits representing our current technological "irrational rationality," and that they will probably manifest as part of the 2012 transition. Ultimately, they are, in my opinion, bacterial agents operating on the level of consciousness, and those who are ensnared too deeply in the one-dimensional rationality of materialism, seduced into passivity by this materialist civilization, may be whisked away to undergo a different, extremely cruel and degenerate, form of evolution at a lower level of consciousness. Steiner described the lower world that Ahriman was preparing for deviant human evolution – it would be a level denser than this one, or a world with a progressively greater number of rules and restrictions (in Gurdjieff’s terms).

I recommend the John Smart interview and this link to Ray Kurzeill’s piece on the singularity: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1
I do not agree entirely with their perspectives, but they are definitely putting together a big piece of the puzzle. Kurzweill thinks we merge with our technology, increasing the thinking power of the brain through super-biological implants etc. I still prefer Auribindo’s notion that we re-integrate the released powers of technology into our organic being as we attain the supramental state. However, since dualisms seem to be on the way to being superseded, we may find that both happen at the same time, in some way we cannot yet comprehend.

Buzz: "Personally, I've believed for decades that the ancients had a technology long forgotten. It was a (as Edgar Cayce would say) psychic or occult technology. Not fossil fuel based, though apparently crystals were involved somehow, but mind played a part as well, in somehow influencing the crystals. There is technology and then again there is technology. As long as it is non-polluting I don't have much trouble with it. But, even in Atlantis this power was misused, causing the great destruction."

I can only hypothesize that the "pollution" of "Atlantis" was the hubris and various mind-poisons and delusions that caused some planetary catastrophe – pulling in a meteor or causing pole shift - through misuse of magical consciousness, a noospheric crisis. I also do not think that Atlantis was a physical place on this Earth. I think it represents another form of consciousness, less dense and more dream-like than what we now have (as Steiner discusses), and to a certain extent outside of time, or having its own time. Atlantis may be like a parallel or contiguous set of possibilities to our world.

I do suspect that the Maya and the Egyptians had profound magical techniques utilizing acoustics, psychedelics, crystals, and rituals to enter into extraordinary states of mind and perhaps literally cross over into other dimensions of existence. I think we will start to rediscover these techniques in the next years. The Darmanhur community in Italy may already be employing them.

Thom: " wonder whether you are aware of the many similarities between "Quetzalcoatl conciousness" and the "supramental conciousness" much discussed by Aurobindo?"

Yes but I need to do a lot more reading about Aurobindo. I would love to hear you elaborate further. What is "ananda"? How is your experience there (in Auroville?) going? What do you think about the experiment they made at the end of their lives to change physical matter, which was apparently a failure? Goswami by the way integrates Aurobindo’s ideas on the supermental condition.

I find Steiner’s discussion of the "Jupiter State" to be the most useful imprint for understanding what the next phase may be like (before it escapes the constraints of our current language capacities). It seems like a good book project would be a cross-cultural consideration of Aurobindo and Steiner.

Lately I have been reviewing some Heidegger. I found this paragraph on his conception of "world" to be very helpful, not to mention beautiful, in understanding what seems to be going on – not the "end of the world" but the end of a world as an entire framing of reality:

The world is not the mere collection of the countable or uncountable, familiar and unfamiliar things that are just there. But neither is it a merely imagined framework added by our representation to the sum of such given things. The world worlds, and is more fully in being than the tangible and perceptible realm in which we believe ourselves to be at home. World is never an object that stands before us and can be seen. World is the ever-nonobjective to which we are subject as long as the paths of birth and death, blessing and curse keep us transported into Being. Wherever those decisions of our history that relate to our very being are made, are taken up and abandoned by us, go unrecognized and are rediscovered by new inquiry, there the world worlds. A stone is worldless. Plant and animal likewise have no world; but they belong to the covert throng of a surrounding into which they are linked. The peasant woman, on the other hand, has a world because she dwells in the overtness of beings, of the things that are. Her equipment, in its reliability, gives to this world a necessity and nearness of its own. By the opening up of a world, all things gain their lingering and hastening, their remoteness and nearness, their scope and limits. In a world’s worlding is gathered that spaciousness out of which the protective grace of the gods is granted or withheld. Even this doom of the god remaining absent is a way in which world worlds.

[daniel]

Lowlight,

At some point I will get to a more specific description of how this episode happened - it will be in the book in any case -but not today!

[Buzz]

I'd love to hear more about the Darmanhur community. Has it been discussed in another thread?

[sidecross]

Buzz: “…I think in your reply to my statement about the blue pearl above, that you are telling me "don't worry, be happy" because we are a rather recent irritant and whatever we do the Earth will survive. All I can say is look at Mars.”

No, by no means do I to imply "don't worry, be happy".

Earth will not survive as our sun is in its middle age, and when it becomes a Red Giant star, earth will not support life.

What I do imply is the hubris that our species demonstrates from the born again Christian idea of rapture to any other notion that we have an objective view of what exists and what will follow.

We have more in common with what the Jungian thinker June Singer says when she wrote we are like ants on a door step.

Humans have lost their perspective; we are only a part of nature and not its sole interpreter.

[Buzz]

and I thought you were going to attack my statement about Mars. Been wondering how I was going to explain that one.

[ November 26, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Buzz]

I did a search for Darmanhur, only one result but here it is if anyone is interested. Darmansur (http://www.farmville.org/ByronShireCouncilAUS.pdf)
scroll down about half way to the part describing the Darmansur community.

[Jay Babcock]

The website for the Damanhur community is here:

http://www.damanhur.info/en/html/home.asp

[Slow Dancer]

i'm just here to say
i have similar visions
and i'm deeply involved with them

i'm a sort of christ avatar
or melchizedek
i won't go into detail in this thread right now
just wanted you to know i'm in on the whole utopia rapture mutual dream network

when i read your vision
it's almost exactly the same as mine
we are on the same page at least

[sidecross]

The direction of this topic seems to exemplify the model of the Anthropic Principal.

Stephen Hawking in his book A Brief History of Time explained this view as “We see the Universe the way it is because we exist.” Hawking goes on to object to this interpretation as it “runs against the tide of the whole history of science.”

You need only look at such views as the geocentric view of cosmology of Ptolemy who saw the Earth as the center of the Universe. Once a dogma is set up newer views struggle to be understood. The problem Copernicus and Galileo found themselves in trying to explain a heliocentric cosmology is a prime example.

Born again Christians use the same idea of a Strong Anthropic Principal to explain how they can view events and shape them to a particular point of view.

For example science’s view of Earth being 4.5 billion years old thus competes with a biblical view of Earth being only as old as scripture some 6000 to 8000 years old. The biblical interpretation can support its view merely on the fact “We see the Universe the way it is because we exist.”

[Slow Dancer]

now you're delving into the concept of time

consciousness is mutable enough to move in and out of time and timelessness, to perceive linear time, or two times at once, or all time simultaneously

in truth, all things are happening at once
the future and the past both extend from NOW

i believe that organisms stretch time, thru their perception, upholding a center of reality in timespace position

we are all running a race for finding Right Time/Right Place
when we get too far ahead or too far behind we begin moving into higher or lower patterns of consciousness, approaching what we call the moment of death, and touching the singularity.
union of One with All.

[egret]

well, you can probably guess what I am going to say. you have had a vision. you have been vouchsafed something sacrosanct. the vision itself and its content is a portentous and very serious matter. (but if you want a suggestion, as I think you meant with your question, I think )
you must play with it, just as if it were not so. as if it were a game. you must have fun with it
because the nature of the vision is musical (or as you say, vibrational) primarily (and this or that god-manifestation only secondarily); for myth is music, not symbology; and the only way one comprehends music and conveys, is with musical language, not with algebra, but with jazz, with Beat. let the analytic mind go; it will block you because it is hardening. (this iS the new consciousness, and like all consciousness it is only nOw) it will amount to no more than a dissertation on a symphony –
fine if everyone can hear the symphony. but people do not hear this one, which is why it is important you get it right. it is your duty to convey. this is what I think. if you think that too then I am sure it puts that much more weight on your shoulders. but this must be shrugged off. simple, not easy.
remember the prophets, the oracles : contrary to what the xians thot, they did not prophesy. they spoke the word of god and they used poetry to do so, because god does not speak with words at all, but poetry is the closest humans can come. contrary to what the west thinks, the oracles did not prophesy but told of the music of the Tao of that moment, which of course contains not one but a million (albeit all, yes, necessarily related, contingent) futures. now is not the time for literalization.
go for it Daniel, it would not have been given to you if you were not up to the task. but no future is ever a foregone conclusion. you will need impeccable levity. dance the orange as rilke says. be drunkenness. stop making sense.
this too: you are very courageous to stand out and open on this.

[jezebelle]

I feel like we are in an "internet" Wave, dancing; everbody is doing their thing and yet we are one.
Just like at a reallly great concert, then it happens god-is-everwhere the puzzle doesn't seem puzzling. Everybody sees their connection as they dance, a RAVE.
I like-enjoy-love the buzzing of this recent forum. (speaking of buzzing thanks-buzz for your recent posts, very informative it kinda explains alot)
It's funny but I'm in the supermarket last night, and then SHIFT everthing seemed so real. Everything was me and my own distraction. I'm noting this incredible feeling or event and then I get scared and shift/return to regular ways of it. How to hold it longer is a condundrum (sp?)

But I believe it is bleeding through for everyone.

Daniel you make sense, just keep on . . . keeping on. I love this internet and forum especially.
Deepest respect and love,
jez

[Lowlight]

Cool, no problem Daniel. I look forward to the Book. Peace

[Buzz]

Thanks Jay, for the link. My wife was a founding member of the Hog Farm in Vermont. She left early, pushing aside garbage bags piled up in the yard on her way out. Lazy, lazy people there in the beginning. Amazing it survived.
I think what the folks at Damanhur are doing is great. I've kind of dreamed about doing something like that in the mountains where my cabin is.

Glad to help out, jez!

[ November 27, 2004, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Buzz]

just thinking, the two largest animal-shaped mounds in North America are the Serpent Mound in Ohio, and a bird shaped mound at Poverty Point in NE Louisiana. Poverty Point (http://www.crt.state.la.us/crt/parks/poverty/pvertypt.htm)
Serpent Mound (http://www.ohiohistory.org/places/serpent/)

something else that just popped into my mind, I was told that Nancy Red Star claims (in one of her books on Star Ancestors) that the first astronaut to orbit the earth (John Glenn?) saw a bright flash of light when he flew over the Serpent Mound.

[ November 27, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[nanouk]

the winged serpent is an ancient apothecary symbol, found on many ambulances even today, but it is the two coiled serpents of Ophichius, The Healer, and the wings of Hermes, for 'Wisdom'. also Ouroboros looks very much like a 'feathered' or winged creature too...

http://abacus.best.vwh.net/oro/orolink.html

love and respect,
n.

[nanouk]

by the way, Ophichius is the 13th Star Sign in the ancient zodiac...
Albert Einstein was an Ophicius apparently, you see the 13th Star Sign Travels With The Blue Moon...

love and respect,
n.

[daniel]

egret,

thanks for your comment. I think that appreciating it as something akin to music - a jazz solo in an evolving art work - is a piece of the puzzle.

[Thom]

Hi Daniel,

You wrote: "What is "ananda"? How is your experience there (in Auroville?) going? What do you think about the experiment they made at the end of their lives to change physical matter, which was apparently a failure?"

This is from the glossary to Aurobindo's "The Life Divine":

Ananda: Bliss, Delight, Beatitude; the essential principle of delight; a self delight which is the very nature of the transcendent and infinite existence.

Anandamaya: (purusa) Bliss-Self of the Spirit.

Yes, I'm in Auroville. ( http://www.auroville.org/ ) Its an interesting place. Is the experiment working? I'm not at all sure. Although, I've only been here a month, not long enough, so I'm a bit wary of my opinions at the moment... Things seem a bit static. The Matrimandir temple, however, is exceptional. I've found it a lot easier here than elsewhere to meditate; the place has a definite presence and influence.

I've not read (or heard discussed in Auroville) much about the experiment you mention. Aurobindo certainly stated that matter would have to undergo change when enlightened people began to manifest the supramental. Whether the Mother (who was recorded talking about her experiments in this direction) actually acheived anything meaningfull beyond visualisation, I don't know. My feelings toward her are ambiguous (I must be coming across as suspicious of everything..). Some of her experiences are reminiscent of what people discuss with Salvia, ie conciousnes diffusing and becoming re-focused in an apparently external object, like chair, toy car etc. Some of her experiences just seem like senility...I'll try and dig out some quotes and also maybe start a thread on Aurobindo's ideas, in relation to the Quetzalcoatl transmission. I'm travelling overland to Calcutta tomorrow so hopefully in a couple of days...

Is there anything online about Steiner's "Jupiter State?" I'm interested in Steiner but don't know where to start, and I won't really be able to get hold of any books for another couple of months.

[nanouk]

sounds like an interesting experience, thom (:

http://www.rsarchive.org/Books/

a rudolf steiner e-library

[susanna]

daniel

this transmission has such rich texture. it reminds me of an ancient textile, patterns that are woven into the fabric of consciousness transcending and outmoding causality and linear time. these are the threads of myth, each with its own spark of truth.

i think that the connection between the spiritual traditions of the Maya, the Christ, Islam and Tibetan Buddhism is worth delving into from a cosmological/mythological standpoint, ie, what core aspects can be isolated from all of these traditions as an integral part of the fundamental message that you have received?

"I am in complete harmony, as well, with the Tibetan tradition of Dzogchen."

i wondered if you, yourself have had any personal experience with this tradtion. the archetypal mythology of Tibet might somehow resonate with that of the Maya in a serendipidous manner; spirit seems to have shown you that connection.

i hope that in some way these posts have gently uplifted you and transmuted your feeling of blocked-ness into pure flow. it has been intensely inspiring to experience and be a part of this thread; thank you for sharing your spark!

here's a tidbit from Fred Alan Wolf: "The future creates the present"

peace
s

[ November 29, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: susanna ]

[Charlie]

Daniel wrote to Charlie: "i don’t know what you mean – what am I in denial of?"

You can call the information you received a “transmission” if you like, but essentially, it is channeled material.

Out of the hundreds or thousands of books that you’ve read, how many have been written by or about channelers? You seem to have a resistance to this occult field, as you stated in a thread just last week:

“similarly i have not read Seth Speaks, but have heard from many people that it is a treasure trove of good stuff. my problem with channeling is that while much of the information may be excellent, you can't know the ultimate aim of the entity who is being contacted - they may totally appear 99% to be on our side and have our best goals in mind, however that crucial one percent might be some devastating thing that represents some devious aim they are pursuing on subtler levels of consciousness.”

To me, this was a weak argument—one could claim there are ulterior motives to any written work. It also doesn’t give the reader much credit for having the intelligence or forbearance to discern a manipulative influence.

In your first book, you “legitimized” your own drug experiences by placing them within a learned, historical context of shamanism. This was a winning formula, accomplishing several aims:
it illuminated shamanism as an accepted discipline within its own cultural context, occurring on different continents throughout the world; it showed how shamanism “worked” in the past as a link to other dimensions, or spirit states; it presented your own experience as a bridge between the past and present--ancient art still works for the modern mind.

Maybe it's a lame idea, but...you can use this same formula for the Quetzalcoatl material in your second book. If you provide a historical perspective on channeling from a rational, objective viewpoint, the reader will be much more willing to take that leap of faith with you when you relate your own experience. However, if you do not personally accept the validity, relevance, or "purity" of channeled material, you are in part denying your own experience, and will never make a convincing argument to the reader.

On a side note, I have a question about the actual transmission:

“We go deeper into the physical to reach the infinite.”

Hadn’t you had actually received this information earlier, on Ibogaine? Wasn’t it in your first book, or am I mistaken?

[ November 29, 2004, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[daniel]

hi charlie,

yes i have had the same thought about "channeling," and in the first draft I did discuss Crowley and The Book of the Law, Dion Fortune and The Cosmic Doctrine, etc. I haven't gotten into Seth etc - i seem to have reached a limit to what my mind can absorb for this present project.

however i think Susanna's quote, "the future creates the present," is a big part of the situation. I feel that if Quetzalcoatl means the integration of "heaven" and earth," then ultimately the goal is to integrate that level of pronouncement, rather than considering it the "other" speaking through me.

Right now I am reading a great book of Allen Ginsberg interviews, Spontaneous Mind. Post-1950s, I think that the interview was his great artistic medium, and some of these are masterpieces, especially the Playboy interview after Chicago 68. Ginsberg's entire adventure started when he had an aural hallucination of Willam Blake's voice incanting "The Sick Rose." He thought he had gone mad - committed himself to a mental institution for a while - but really it was a kind of satori experience that he describes brilliantly, but also takes lightly. Ginsberg's earthy and humorous and candid approach is the one that appeals to me right now, though I am still blocked...

[daniel]

susanna,

a few more replies to your nice post.

you asked about dzogchen: I have had no experience of studying it (except reading a few books) in this life. However, another aspect of the Brazil trip that resulted in the Quetzalcoatl transmission, was a revelation of a past life situation in which I was a practicioner of Buddhism. I did not at that point have a real "belief" in past lives and specific reincarnations (as I said above, I am still tempted to think of it as non-local resonance with a previous form-vehicle of consciousness). However, the experience was quite intensely specific, in that part of it was an awareness that has not left me, of that past level of consciousness as a kind of pitch of vibration that was extremely steady, and very different from my contemporary consciousness, which seemed rather sentimental and frilly by comparison.

I suspect that as we move towards transition, many others will have this type of experience - that what they are drawn to in this life is an actual result of the trajectory of their previous lives, and therefore there are certain intermediary stages of practice that can be skipped over, or are immediately apparent to them.

The other thing I want to note - and this is one of the hardest aspects of the imprint to bring into focus - is that I think the nature of causality is changing as we move into the transition. This has been in a sense "prophecied" by recent physics, going back to the 1920s. The work that Wolfe and Gaswami and others are doing is re-presenting these findings in a stepped-down language, so they become graspable and in a sense usable by non-specialists, until "Thought changes the nature of reality." Synchronicity and other psychic phenomena represent a different model of causality - the root cause of events seems to be what the individual needs to draw into manifestation to further their own evolution. These nonlinear events that seem to happen beyond the Newtonian-Cartesian model proliferate when one maintains a certain state of mind - detachment, openness, spaciousness. That synchronicities proliferate through use of psychedelics would then be a natural aspect of the function of these catalysts as amplifiers or intensifiers of consciousness.

[sidecross]

Slow Dancer: “now you're delving into the concept of time…”

Einstein 100 years ago in his Special Relativity showed that space and time are a continuum. Years later in General Relativity he combined gravitation. Under a previous Newtonian view if you were on a boat at high tide and the Moon were to disappear Newton’s calculations would show the tide to recede 1.5 minutes before the view of the Moon would disappear; this being the time light would take to travel from the Moon to Earth.

In recent years it has been shown in quantum mechanics experiments that locality is transcended. Einstein went to his grave trying to disprove what these recent experiments prove. He was quoted calling these possibilities “spookiness at a distance.”

Anyone looking for context to place psychedelic experiences might look at these examples as well as the more exotic ones daniel is exploring.

[Phlash]

What is the difference between channeling and prophecy?

[Fats]

Looks like I joined the Message Board at a good time. I was just wondering if any one was interested in direct discussion with AIM or another. Let Me Know!!!!
Fats
Aim: MadManApothecary

[nanouk]

sometimes it is not about reading, manning, reality is to me entirely experiental, but if noone else(but oneself)gives one a push, a good book will, for sure... (:

love and respect,
n.

ps. i entirely relate to the gardener in you, manning, it is the best medicine i have to restore a little of my bottled up ~negative brain waves~
it was taught to me by my great grand mother, and then descending in line to my mother, who is a great herbalist and fungi expert.
now, in line, i pass on my knowledge to my children, that is five generations of knowledge, and foremost INSPIRATION! :D ds.

[ December 02, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Nanouk ]

[craazyman]

Been away for a few days doing the Thanksgiving ritual. Wow. What a prolific thread! I almost hate to add to it. My "frail and tragic" metaphor about Quezequatal was simply in relation to the idea that the angry god / day of judgement prophecy seems to have been an integral part of human consciouness for millenia. And, as of yet anyway, it has yet to happen. Eventually, I suppose the world will end, from fire or ice or some huge explosion, a conundrum that gives physicists and astronomers and philosophers something the muse over. Something in the human mind wants to condemn the human being, unlike animals, we have guilt and shame and ethics and honor and all these concepts that either elevate or torture us. I see the Quezequatl transmission as a manifestation of that (these) forces. Depending on how they are acted upon, these can be salutary forces or destructive ones. Often it's the latter, in individuals as well as societies, manifesting in neuroses or holocausts/scapegoats. If these forces are unmasked and brought into consciousness, often they are reduced and defanged. It almost seems at times as if there's an intelligence to these forces, like what we obseve in bacteria that can evade antibiotics, they change form to try to infect consciousness in varying ways from society to society. (I know I'm being VERY Freudian here). At any rate, that's what I meant. (IF I'm making any sense, that is).

[daniel]

The "dark God" as well as "the God of Light" are both aspects of the human psyche.

The prophecy proposes a "great change" to our world, not an end to it. I think it is very important to be careful about language here.

One friend emailed me that it seemed similar to the Lubbavitchers or other monotheistic fundamentalist prophetic modes. I replied that there are some similarities but there are also crucial differences. Here is our last exchange:

>
> Yes but regarding the Beats, wasn't that de facto? They didn't plan on
> doing that. It just happened. You on the other hand seem to be trying
> on the mantle of prophet/guru/cult leader. The way you're talking now
> isn't that far from the Lubavitchers in the '90s when they talked about
> Moshiach, and what Jews needed to do to ensure his arrival/etc...
>

We are at a different place than the Beats were in the '40s - 50s. The situation
is far more dire, the biosphere is closer to being dead, and also the evolution of
the merger of Eastern and Western, shamanic and scientific consciousness has advanced.
We actually no longer have the leisure available to bullshit around, as those previous
generations did. We need to focus on the reality of our situation - which includes
the occult and shamanic reality.

The way I am talking is in some ways quite similar to the Lubbavitchers, the Fundamentalists,
and the Moslems are all talking, but there are crucial differences. I am not saying
I am any kind of guru or cult leader because the time for all of that is past - it
is up to each individual to make the shift in their perspective. If you read the
Quetz text again, that is what it states. All of those monotheistic perspectives
are fundamentally regressive and atavistic - back towards some neo-tribalism and
magical perspective, based on a transcendentally imposed metaphysic, imposed from
above. As I said in my Arthur piece, Christ's sacrifice was not an act to save our
souls, but a model of how we have to live if we want to evolve into higher levels
of being. I keep saying these things, and most people must think I am kidding, or
reading it through some ironic post-modern scrim of some sort.

Also "I" didn't particularly want to say any of these things - it happened because
I have been compelled to follow this path which seemed the only truthful one to me.

[Buzz]

I think Daniel aired this here to shed the prophet thingy. He expected to be challenged and it happened. Now that we, and Daniel, have that out of the way. What is the significance of what he stated? What does it mean? What is the work to be done?

I suppose I have my own ideas about this. If i could lend some advise, it would be; look at the big picture, this is not about you. Accept the mission, but not the ring of power that is being offered with it.

This is a paradox, however, isn't it? Because by seeing the big picture, one sees themselves more clearly than ever. And one sees the work that needs to be done. Heal yourself and accept your role, humble or glorius, it should not matter.

In my one and only Ayahuasca trip, maybe 2 or 3 months back, the message was, "take some time for yourself, heal the wounds, there is not much time now". Now, being in my 50's, this could certainly be seen as a warning of old age coming on and death being not far away. Or was this a message of the coming time. Either way, I have some personal work to do.

[ December 03, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Woodpecker]

I've only skimmed this thread, as I need to save my eyes for my homework, but I wanted to add the following William Blake quote into the mix; it has reminded me of you, Daniel, for a while.

A Memorable Fancy.
The Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel dined with me, and I asked them how they dared so roundly to assert that God spake to them; and whether they did not think at the time, that they would be misunderstood, & so be the cause of imposition.
Isaiah answer'd. 'I saw no God, nor heard any, in a finite organical perception; but my senses discover'd the infinite in every thing, and as I was then perswaded, & remain confirm'd, that the voice of honest indignation is the voice of God, I cared not for consequences but wrote.'

[craazyman]

Oh Boy, the Lubbavitchers! I remember them well, their caravans down lower Broadway, ringing their bells and hanging out the windows in their hats and beards proclaiming to the amazed streetwalking working stiffs the imminent return of the man who lived out, where, in Brighton Beach?, who was so frail he could barely walk when he died, who seemed to mumble more than speak? For a resurrection and a second coming I'll take DaVinci's Christ, or Michaelangelo's even better, there's a man/God with muscle, who can throw a billion or two souls onto the barbeque and incarnate a new universe . . . and then those of us walking the streets staring, thinking "what the hell . . . ?" I remember looking at the young ones, miniature versions of the elders but beardless and already completely and blindly immitative, and feeling a sinking sense of pity at their entrapment in the madness of it all. And yet, they probably thought the same of me.

You're quite right, Daniel, there are immense differences between you and them, which you concisely articulated. I suspect your friend is partly jealous of your terrific book and website (although I share his apparent dim view of prophets and prophecies). I don't see you as a prophet or guru, rather a genuine, humane, concerned individual trying to make sense of disparate and confusing forces and to bring out of that journey something that can be, at least loosely, called "truth."

It may have occurred to you--and this is one of the parts of your book that I found to be especially moving (in a non-sentimental, clear, powerful way)--how much in common you have with your father, the abstract painter. What he was trying for in paint and rhythm and color and line, you are trying for in words. To try to create a new language that states and conveys something meaningful and new and true to those who may not, themselves, have the means for articulation but who do have the ability to perceive the encroaching force and dim meaning of it. It is a great contest, for sure. But, in my view anyway, it's a very thin needle to thread, though there's honor in even the effort. But there's got to be something objective and clear and systematic at the core, I think, for it to succeed and endure.

[orb gettarr]

I'm not sure if this will be little more than shallow solace for you, but in 1999, I had a 'message' while meditating in a cave about 2 hours from where I live..

The caves rest on a 'power spot', and there are 3 of them in a row, one small one that goes deep back into the hill, a medium sized one with an entrance perhaps 15 to 20 in height but only goes back a few hundred yards, and the largest, out of which a spring issues, and one could take a raft if so desired...

These caves are located in a park I discovered when I lived in the area, around 1982...

At any rate, on the day in question, I went to the caves- there was almost no one around.. and I crawled back into the smallest one..

The energy emanating from the recesses of the cave was very powerful that day, so powerful in fact, that I was able to see it rippling the walls of the cave around me- and then I noticed balls of light energy with tendrils and filaments radiating outward begin to drift from the darkness of the recesses of the 'wormhole' cave (I have called it this because the cave becomes little more than a crawlspace just a few hundred yards back into the darkness)..

These balls of energy drifted slowly from the recesses of the cave and then outward into the waning afternoon light, disappearing as they reached the mouth of the cave...

And then I received very clearly, a message- it said NOW IS THE TIME..

That phrase kept repeating itself very strongly in my mind (and by that time, it had been several years since I had taken any 'medicine' of any kind that you have mentioned here in your post)..

I did not understand at the very first reception of it what it meant, but as I got up to leave the cave, the meaning began to filter through- something major in the world was about to happen..

As I reached the outside of the cave, I noticed something I hadn't noticed before: on the ground, outside the cave, was a puddle of dark red liquid that looked exactly like blood..

As I viewed it in puzzlement, another extension of the 'message' came to me, and told me that it was not to be feared.. that it was like the blood that accompanies childbirth- this is when it became clear that the message was about something that was about to be revealed into manifestation..

The cosmic consciousness, the struggle of the butterfly to emerge from the cocoon...

Once I read your post, I felt compelled to relate this experience here, as a confirmation for you that what has been spoken to you is true..

For a week or so, I kept this message to myself for fear that others would think I had gone batty, crazy, or both... but then I felt compelled to post the message on my website, where it stayed for a couple of years... and then 9/11 happened- what marked, for me at least, the beginning of the end of one thing, and the start of the New thing being brought forth into the earth..

On a personal level, I welcome the Change, whatever else that brings, and hope in earnest that I will be ready for it when it begins to crest into manifestation..

Welcome, brother..

With your permission, I will be posting this on another board to which I have membership, called the Universal Belief Forum.. there are many of us who have been feeling this Shift in consciousness about to take place...

Peace,

'O.G.'

[nanouk]

thank you for sharing that, this is a board with many members but many 'silent one's' i also had many profound messages in 1999 and the most poignant @ around 11.19 am 11 august 1999. i was told i was having twins at 6 and a half weeks gestation.

it wasn't until later i reflected on the favour they did me by giving me that particular appointment on that particular day...

(:

love and respect,

nanouk

[nanouk]

it was more like 11.11 i was told i was indeed pregnant, but one 'shrimp' hid behind the other...*lol*

[lvx23]

Wow, what a thread! I've just read it's entirety, somehow missing it over the past month. Thanks to <a href="http://www.newworlddisorder.ca/blog/">New World Disorder</a> for the link here. I'm just going to ramble about about some of the thoughts this has brought up for me...

The notion of an Apocalypse or Revelation seems to be a fairly common thread running throughout human mythology. Whether this is an intuition of the future or a reflection of human psychology is probably inconsequential. Human thought manifests human reality. The sheer weight of this meme may be enough to make it real. And note that both refer to a revealing or unocculting. Salome's veils are being pulled aside to reveal the glory of the goddess.

If Q speaks to the union of Spirit and Soul, the Great Work is the (re)union of Spirit and Matter, or recognizing the spirit in matter. The kingdom of heaven is on Earth. It is the path returning to Eden. Duality is only one side of the coin. The course of western magick is that of realizing the divinity in each of us, all of us becoming the gods we worship, and awakening to the simple memory that we're all the same godform vibrating creation into being.

The Singularity may or may not be such a global awakening. It may just be a flickering resonance that suddenly gains enough strength to assert itself as a new dominant paradigm. Grant Morrison had a similar abduction/channeling experience in the 90's in which he was shown that our universe is larval, a chrysalis or placenta on the verge of birth into a higher, 5th dimensional order. He called this The Supercontext. It was the experience of stepping outside of linear time and witnessing the whole of spacetime as a single fluid reflective object with history washing over it's surface. The End Times are perhaps just that: the end of Time. Wether we'll all wake up at once or the new paradigm will overtake the old remains to be seen. I suspect the latter, as nothing short of a true fire & brimstone Apocalypse will shed the old ways entirely.

My own experience resonates with this idea of the Supercontext and that of Daniel's. The modern human crisis is the imbalance of matter, the trap of duality and mechanism. We've elected to perceive our world as a clockwork, our lives simply cogs measured by degrees of utility. We are lost in the dream of Shiva, unaware that we are in fact the dreamer. Either we awaken willingly, or are knocked out of our slumber by some cataclysm. The more I meditate on the inevitable paradigm shift, the more I've come to accept that it will be traumatic. Like the butterfly or the foetus, birth into the new vibration seems to require the destruction of a fair bit of the old. This is at least the only way the equilibrium could succesfully be punctuated.

As has been mentioned, this transmission is similar in many ways to Crowley's receipt of the Book of the Law. Both were sudden received messages heralding the rising vibration of an ancient godform attendant to the new age of hypertechnology. Both brought the demise of the Old Ways on a wave of love and bloodshed. Note that Quetzalcoatl was once a man who became the god of gods. His worship was first by priests, and then by warriors. Like Christ, he was prophesied to come again. But I think it's erroneous to get cought up in anthopomorphic expectations. These are, as Daniel suggests, vibrations or codified frequencies whose amplitude rises and falls with the collective consciousness of humanity.

We are dreaming these myths, but since we live in the dream, the myths are real. The singularity or hypercontext, IMHO, will be increasingly a time of dreams, of amazements. Imagination becomes real through technology. Technolgy is any technique that manifests our will. The singularity may be the realization that we are all gods making the dream real through our own imagination; that matter and energy really are translatable; and that our perceived boundaries, distinctions, and categorizations ultimatley fail in a quantum relativistic framework.

Daniel, this is an experience that will undoubtedly inform everything you do from here on out. But at the worst, you've only got 8 more years to worry about it!

[Reversal7]

Daniel,

I loved your book. I first read it about six months ago after going on an extremely insane DXM trip, during which I was told by alien entities to read the writings of Terence Mckenna. And who am I to argue with strange beings from another level of reality?

Incredibly, at that point I had never even heard of Terence McKenna. Anyway, I made a trip to Borders looking for something by Terence McKenna and I found THE ARCHAIC REVIVAL , but I also was drawn to your book; maybe it was the tweaked cover pattern. Great Stuff!

The really synchronistic part of this tale is that for the last few months I've been studying mayan prophecy, and I decided randomly to read your book again when I saw that you had a website and that's when I saw your material on Quetzalcoatl. I got the chills. Very intense.

I strongly recommend that you read THE MAYAN CALENDAR and THE TRANSFORMATION of CONSCIOUSNESS by Carl Johan Calleman, Ph.D. It may help you tie some of your ideas together and lead you to new understandings of the cosmic energies at work in this process.

Peace

[morph]

The experience was extremely unpleasant. For days, I was filled with rage and despair over it, as my ego tried to adjust to the power of the archetypal material that was constellating. I post it now out of a sense of helplessness and near-desolationI am interested in the connection between extreme emotion and experiences of this kind. I am wondering if extreme emotion is a necessary condition of mystical experience. Any thoughts? Daniel, do you know why the experience was, and continues to be, unpleasant?

[daniel]

Why is the experience unpleasant? I think it is because the normal human Ego, the regular personality, doesn't want to deal with the demands of the Higher Self or the archetypal material that seeks to constellate within it - this would be the Jungian perspective.

To accept or integrate archetypal material requires a kind of surrender of control on the individual level - at the same time you are still stuck with your normal suffering and unfulfilled and neurotic individual personality, which wants everything to be the way it has been - wants to go on vacation, wants to do anything but face its own transitoriness and its need to transform to make way for this larger process that is trying to take place.

There is a kind of horror in feeling that you are the one uniquely cursed - and blessed - to be the carrier of your particular "Higher Self." It has also been taking me awhile to accept the Nietszchean idea of "Amor Fati," Love of Fate."
If this whole thing is true - and I think it is for very long-winded reasons I will lay out in the book if I am ever able to write it - then I am ultimately living out some kind of destiny or myth that is beyond anything I imagined that life would allow to be possible. The quantum shift in context was also very disconcerting - and remains so.

If I take this "story" seriously, then what seems to be indicated is that my intuitions may be correct: There is going to be some kind of global collapse, some sort of world-wide revolution within the next 3 - 7 years, and somehow the ideas that I have been painstakingly and ploddingly putting together (which still most of the time seem like some kind of odd hallucination I am having) are actually going to be important, even necessary, for the resolution of this crisis. It is a lot to deal with - and I never felt like a very resolved or even happy person, just one cursed with a strange habit of truthfulness and curiosity.

[jezebelle]

Daniel, well said, as usual.

"there is going to be some kind of global collapse, some sort of world-wide revolution within the next 3 - 7 years"

My kid is kinda really getting fun, he's 15 and I'm 52 and he's made a study of the sixties & seventies and just recently he burned me a copy of the doors greatest hits. Also he educates me to the current music scene. But my point of this is; one day he turned to me nonchalantly, and said, "you know there is going to be a revolution." I just smiled and said I know.

[Lowlight]

Revolution is only ever one day away!

CHE LIVES

[nanouk]

Revolution is only ever one day away!

it is revolving already isn't it? (:

[morph]

I am wondering if extreme emotion is a necessary condition of mystical experience. Any thoughts?Any thoughts on this?
Also, what is the relation between the sacred plant consumed by Daniel and the spirit which
'locked' onto him?
Could this spirit have appeared without the plant?

[silentwolf]

Well, this thread is most definately titillating, to say the very least!
Daniel, there's really only one way to deal with prophesies of the future (prophesy can also mean god speaking through you, or religious instructions); treat it like it most positively will occur, and like it most positively won't occur.
My wife has been having visions for over a year now about some massive tragedy that erupts, and chaos, and a new community. A lot of this centers around a cave which I have also had visions of, which I didn't tell her about until she told me about a calamity. Our sketches of the cave entrance and surrounding environment were identical. We have yet to actually find this cave, though I can say we haven't really gone out looking. I know where it will be found if it is there, but I can't say for certain that it is nor will I disclose the location for a matter of security in case we DO find it.
All major prophesies from different corners of the globe talk about a global destruction that doesn't wipe out all of us but definately changes things. These same cultures also talk about visitors from the stars; most include two types of visitors. These two would be the giant Nordic people (who are commonly said to have a space station on the moon; check the data available and make your own judgement,) and those called the Annunaki (from Nibiru, courtesy of Zechariah Sitchin,) which are giant reptilian types. Both have been known to meddle in human affairs, and it is said that Quetzalcoatl is one of the Annunaki.
The electromagnetic field of the Earth is about to collapse, and the poles have been drifting 16km a year. This is a fact. They don't expect it to last until 2050, but they can't give an accurate prediction on when it will collapse. It has collapsed and reversed many, many times before; this has been proven in geology and is one of the ways they test for age. The problem with a collapse is most circuitry will fry and all global communications will be gone. There's a good cause for pandemonium ~ no more Adult Swim! While the field is down, the Earth will be subject to a lot of cosmic radiation that is normally deflected. Not only that, but the entire Solar System is in electromagnetic sync~ if the Earth's field is collapsing, what's going on with the Solar field? When the field reasserts itself, there will be MASSIVE electrical storms and freaky weather phenomenon.
That's one possible cause.
Possible cause number 2 is the return of Nibiru. Nibiru is known in the Bible as "Wormwood." If you're ver bored, look up "Project Wormwood" on Google. According to Sitching, Nibiru has a comet-like orbit that takes it out into the Oort Cloud south of the elliptic (the Sun's equator) and then swings it into the meteor field (decimated planet?) north of the plane of the elliptic. You'll know we're in trouble if you see an ever enlarging red dot in the sky ~ because if that planet really is there and swings into view, you can expect some armies of giant lizards to land (research the SC "lizardman incident" for recent encounters with these fiends.)
Ok, let's set all the physical catastrophes aside. Our DNA is attuned to a specific RF wavelength produced by our Sun. The Mayan calender is set up in accordance with celestial events. It is possible that we will re-align with the center of the Milky Way in 2012, and that could trigger a shift in consciousness. If you've ever had a break-through with Salvia and went through the fractal, you'll have a profound sense of what that could mean.
Ok...let's say that both happen at the same time. World goes kaput because two nations attack each other moments before the electromagnetic field drop...then our consciousness realign with the Galaxy, causing a profound shift in perception in conjunction with the loss of the greatest thing we've accomplished, instantaneous global communication. BAM! Chaos ensues, and the Shadows lose their grasp on the masses. Next thing you know, massive electrical storms blow through town, the ground shakes, and the skies get really dark from seismic gasses and dust. It's cold as hell for the next two years and there isn't much to eat; roving bands of militants are running around herding people up and carting them off, if not just shooting them on the spot. It won't matter what crest they have on their shoulder, they won't be your friend. Then everything clears up, and it's time to build a new society.
Or, nothing could happen at all.
Just stay away from Denver, either way.

[nanouk]

I am wondering if extreme emotion is a necessary condition of mystical experience. Any thoughts?

in my experience it triggers it...

silentwolfxvx:
My wife has been having visions for over a year now about some massive tragedy that erupts, and chaos, and a new community. A lot of this centers around a cave

the cave...it is on my mind too...i have long felt i should live in one *lol*

and someone else posted a vision they had while meditating by one...

ps i love the way you mention 'wormwood' in one reference and then salvia in the other...the Green Goddesses...

love and respect,

[daniel]

hi silentwolf,

i would have to say that i reject a lot of what you say in your post, although some of it is plausible in terms of physical events that might or might not occur, but these events are really not the point, the point is the psyche becoming real, or our consciousness intensifying until we can realize that "the imagination is not a state but the human existence in itself."

i believe that any attempt to hide out or seek an imagined security in a cave or remote dwelling - any survivalist fantasy - is pointless and worse than that, a failure of the imagination. I don't think it is going to matter where you are but who you are - and the work you have done to build a community around yourself. To go through the transition, one will have to open oneself to love and faith in other people, rather than thinking you can escape the human community by running away.

i think all the negative alien typologies are projections of our diseased imagination - and this is also a subtle but repeated cue if you study the crop formations. The galactic civilizations are those that have transferred into nonduality, living on higher levels of consciousness and subtler levels of energy. They are not going to be lizard-men as in Star Trek. However, if that is what your imagination projects, you might indeed get that. As I have said, it may be that "2012" means that everybody gets what they secretly want - therefore you have to be very careful about what you want.

[nanouk]

can i defend my statement, i meant 'live' in a cave as in a dragon's lair, the 'Good House Keeping Patrol' would have a fit if they saw my house at times smile.gif

...and then, among the headlines today were the astounding evidence that household cleaning products, ALL of them, dramatically increases asthma suffering, and the severity of it...

love and respect,

[sidecross]

On the risk of being redundant, McKenna said of 2012 that if time travel becomes part of our future his time wave theory becomes mute. He also said that 2012 was not an apocalyptic event.

History is a wasteland of prophesies that failed to materialize.

[silentwolf]

No one can ascertain with certainty the events of the future; we can only work with the present to bring about the events we wish to transpire and the changes we wish to incur. It is for this reason that I said you must treat forecasts of the future as though they most certainly will and most certainly will not occur at the same time.

[nanouk]

As I have said, it may be that "2012" means that everybody gets what they secretly want - therefore you have to be very careful about what you want.

I Fully Agree... (:

but i do not remember you saying it...

[nanouk]

...apocalypse is lack of faith, thats all, i believe that is no longer the case...

smile.gif

*i love my bbc 6 music!*

[loonybin]

when nothing at all happens on 2012 you dorks are gonna be so pissed. and making excuses, just like Rapture believers.

[Buzz]

loony, unlike the Rapture, 2012 has a more hopeful message. 2012 is just the beginning.

Check out this link I found. Was searching the magical numbers: 11:11. If you scroll down there is numerology concerning DNA, and 12:12 = 2012.

11.11 & 2012 (http://www.crystalinks.com/11.11.html)

[Manning]

And speaking of 911, here's a quirky little link that's fitting for today...

Revelation 12:1-5

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The Real Birthdate of the Master (http://www.garone.net/tony/themaster.html)

Scientific and weird, all in one.

[ December 25, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Manning ]

[Buzz]

thanks for that Manning. The cosmic birth of christ, in heaven as on earth. I've never thought of it in that way, thats for sure.

The numerology between the moon and humans is very interesting. I read if our human dna were stretched out into a line it would reach from here to the moon.

Speaking of the moon, it had a huge white circle around it last night.

[nanouk]

so, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

imagination or creation?

:confused:

only God knows...

:D

[ January 06, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Nanouk ]

[Buzz]

Well, I'd have to say God came first, you know how guys are. ;)

[nanouk]

*lol*

[Isaiah Mpski]

Lets run off to Brazil.

[Lowlight]

Hey Daniel, i was just wondering how you are now since you started this thread? have you managed to integrate the experience to any extent?

Best wishes

[silentwolf]

Originally posted by loonybin:
when nothing at all happens on 2012 you dorks are gonna be so pissed. and making excuses, just like Rapture believers.I don't think the change is going to occur on 2012...it's more likely that's the marker point of the new age rather than the full transitional period. I think the transition is about to seriously kick in this December, and last for the next 7 years, culminating with the full establishment of the 5th Age in December of 2012.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Wolf,
Responding to you various e-mails and requests one must decide whether a Messiah is to be sent or recognised.
Of course you realize the Jews are awaiting theirs.
And Christ boldly forcasts another in His quotations in John14:26,John15:26 and John16:13.

Ok.Lets say I am that character.What am I to do with it.
That is what occupys my mind in part and to see that you must read the Book of Isaiah and come to know the Book of Revelation.
...In the hills overlooking the mountains shall be established...
Mpski.
Where two are more are gathered....

[silentwolf]

Ok, let's say you are that character. What are you doing? What's your mission, and how are you accomplishing it? Understand that I'm not trying to ridicule or belittle you, I just want an understanding. I'm not looking for references from the bible; I'd like to hear your personal perspective on it.

From what I have read on your posts, I see that you are portraying yourself as a messiah. This can be for three reasons: The first, you're absolutely bonkers. The second, you just want to manipulate people into believing you are a messiah for one or various purposes. Lastly, you really are a messiah. No matter which of the three it is, you are trying to convince myself and others that you are a messianic manifestation. I ask for solid evidence on that behalf. Faith without supportive experience is blindness. Show me what you see, so I can see it too.

There's a story about a man who achieved enlightenment, and was able to turn simple objects into gold after that. Children would come up to his hut and ask him for a piece of gold. One day a child came to his door, and he said, "Would you like me to turn a rock into gold for you?" The child responded, "No, I want to know how you did it so I can turn the rock into gold, too."

[ January 28, 2005, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: silentwolfxvx ]

[lvx23]

This is something I wrote a few months ago that might have some bearing on this thread...

Party People at the End of Time

As a perceptual organism embedded in 4 dimensions, I record existence. My recording range is only limited by the range of the senses. Whether memory is total or fragmentary I continuously receive and categorize data, tagging memories with associative relationships to smells, emotions, feelings, etc... and logging them into the holographic library of experience. Yet there's some evidence to suggest that the brain records everything that's perceived, filling huge volumes of memory with even the most minute details. Who knows what the storage capacity of the holographic brain might be but it surely dwarfs even the greatest giga-terabit computers. It may even be infinite.

The material world exists in 3 dimensions: XYZ. Each succesive dimension is coplanar with the prior dimension. They are coexistent in the same space. In other words, dimensions are additive and coincident - you can't experience one without all of those that precede it. Tipped on its side and rolled into motion, the 3-dimensional structure of matter is given a 4th dimension: Time. Again, all 4 dimensions exist simultaneously and isotropically. Time is meaningless without form.

The 5th dimension exists, no doubt. String theory suggests there are 11 dimensions - 7 more intepenetrating our own 4. Our senses are simply limited and don't perceive these other layers or modes of reality. As all higher dimensions are simply extensions of the previous levels, the 5th dimension would be additive to our currently perceived world. It might be the ability to move effortlessly through time. Or perhaps the capacity to manifest imagination directly into being. But it would not negate our current frame of reference. It would merely expand it.

And as the dutiful recording devices we are, as our senses expand to perceive higher dimensions, we'll record them, witnessing the evolution of creation and archiving the data into the universal mind. We, and all conscious beings, are literally the eyes of the world. We are the witnesses of creation. The astounding miracle of life unfolds before us as we give it context, meaning, and mythology.

The argument of reincarnation lends a certain persistence to the vast catalog of data comprising the collective experience of creation by conscious beings. Postulating reincarnation invokes a degree of immortality, or at least a sort of read-write access to the Akashic Record. Our recorded experiences would surely include our identities and selfhoods down to our deepest, darkest fears and desires. Although such demons might be shadowy and amorphous, nothing escapes the psyche. And yet it would seem foolish (or at least extraordinarily liberal for a thermodynamically conservative universe) to exterminate the data of history with the entropic decay of the corporeal body. Either the camera moves from one incarnation to another, or the records lie somewhere more fundamental and eternal than simply within our ephemeral minds. Perhaps in the deep recesses of our internal holographic memory banks lies the quantum plenum, singular and infinite like a universal film being slowly exposed over vast amounts of time. Perhaps witnessing the complete exposure from beginning to end is the experience of the 5h dimension.

As 2012 approaches (only 7 more years), the framerate of our cameras and the resolution of our lenses will continue asymptotically up the curve towards singularity, as finer and finer degrees of perception narrow our focus to the point of unity, simultaneous with the widening aperture relentlessly converging on the infinite. As above, so below, all things renewed by fire. Through it all resides the singular witness, I, watching and recording the great congress of Shiva and Kali manifest into spacetime.

Terence McKenna occasionally imagined the singularity as a vast disco ball at the end of time, casting reflections of itself back through history like spinning lights on a dancefloor. If that's the case, then the apocalypse is really just a great big graduation party, fittingly drunk and emotional, nostalgic and fearful, idealistic and hopeful.

Shall we dance one more time?

[rare bird, o.O.]

Originally posted by daniel:
fulfillment of prophecy - the second coming of Christ, not as some individual redeemer, but as a movement to a new level of consciousness, a heart-centered and compassionate way of being in the world.

I am hoping that by posting it publically, I will help to spark something inside myself, to be able to move forward, or perhaps in hearing responses to it from others I will begin to find the proper distance to it.

* *

Quetzalcoatl Returns

and the "gatherer of the sparks" of the Qabalah – as well as the "Once and Future King" promised by Arthurian legend.

I do not let anything interrupt me in my quest for truth – neither fear nor indifference, poverty nor cynicism.

i went dancing around right about here. Listening to hardtrance and all. i was suddenly moved. To the world i would look so strange, at this late hour, not getting ready to enter the workdaynorm with "a good night's sleep"...ah well, i express this and you will attach value as you wish.

In the realm of thought, I practice warrior discipline.

perhaps discipline is what you wish for. me, it is about freeing myself, and doing as my means to my 'end'. So i free myself, yet i do it within the narrows of ways i prefer (i.e. why climb steep, rough cliffs when one can flow thru a current into a larger bay?)

As for 'warrior' i see *war* in there and i wonder about this language we are led to use. This language that we cannot help but use as tho it is our own, even tho it is 'owned' by others, others whom have already signified its confines. Thus, to call ourselves "warriors" puts us in the realm, the "consensual" reaLM of those stuck in maiming and killing war who identify as WARRIORS.

So, i follow a tradition that tells me of creating my own art way as i wish, as i dare, as i see. i myself have found a path i call ORrior, which can engage WARrior, yet artes in aNothER way and allows me to define myself (even amidst seeming incitements calling me 'strange'/'crazy'/'mad').

i am an ORrior, hence my name o.O. (usually at the end of my various names)

Soon there will be a great change to your world.

One which does not have to be met in the same way that we learn via our conditioning. We could radically celebrate life as we have seen it and wish it to become!

Radically celebrate your life (if you dare!)

But understand the nature of paradox: For those who follow my words and open their hearts and their minds – for those who have "ears to hear" – there is no problem whatsoever. What is false must die so what is true can be born.

Elder info reaches my mind here and i recall the wisdom of watching out for our tendencies to take up the dogmas of missionaries of whatever persuasion. When is this falseness? What is meant by 'must die', and who gets to decide "what is true can be born"?

i interpret what is true to be born is that which we all were when we were first born, and whether we held onto our depth spirits, or even remember them. Like, for me, i have intuitively held on to my youthic splendor, or younGspiRitway; imperfectly to be sure, yet my playfulness balances out my seriousness.

So let's think this through what we are coming up with here (as the keyboard falls off of my lap for the second time on this 'oh so late' night/morning--ugh!...but the pain soon forgotten)


You are, right now, living at the time of revelation, Apocalypse, and the fulfillment of prophecy. Let there be no doubt. You stand at the edge of the Abyss.

Make no mistake, those words have been long shared by peoples who were and have long been systematically smashed, or pretty much decimated. All of the euro tribes that many of us descend from were pretty much decimated in this apocalyptic energy that has been contributing to a world more and more openly out of balance.

What is good about focusing so much on this, then?

Okay, we see this, it is incredulous to our conditioned mind, and it has gotten our attention (i.e. the tsunami, the mud slide, the forest fires). So what of our individual place? Shall we take up the roles we were conditioned into? Spectators, consumers of all of this?

Or, will we take up a position at the gate which seems to speak our hearts best?

Hmm?

(i am learning from this as much as yOu, thank yOu)

The word "Apocalypse" means "uncovering" – and in these last clock ticks of this world age, all must be revealed, uncovered, so that all can be known.

Ah-hah, and so as Democrats are exposed to the reality of the interests of those who dominate (welcome to our fold, fellow human beings; may you realize the value of being *radically* beautiful with each other!)

And waht of the reality of my own life? the revealing, the truth of the path before me which is notably unrelentingly heavy...even as i stand on the edge, speaking my truths as much as i dare, i thinc of wayz i might art myself so that i am carried along in a way that assists me most radically excellently for future existences!

"Reality," as you currently experience it, is something like a waking dream. It is a projection, or let us say an interface, disguising deeper and more intensified levels of being and knowing. For those who are ready and willing, the doors to those other levels now stand open.

Perhaps i will *just make it* as the broiling hysteria emotions come to an overwelming pitch. Hysteria emotions? Ah, such are reserved for all who would even thinc of walking with Qetzacoatl on heR/hiz path, don't you know! The order is given, and the fanged sheeple do as they are told, *not knowing what they do* and *seeming* to be indifferent.

*Seeming* to be indifferent.

When, in reality, they privately wish to escape, largely, but have been conditioned to *believe* that "hope" is lost.

(this, btw, is an opening we may art, and follow the reasons why we borne ourselves here and got the gifts we got now!)

The materiality of your universe is a solid-state illusion. What is this universe? It is a poem that writes itself. It is a song that sings itself into being. This universe has no origin and no end.

We are, at the same time HUGELY GIMUNGUSLY GARGANTUAN and INFITESMALLY TINY MICROSCOPICS OF MICROSCOPICS OF MICROSCOPICS INTO INFINITY.

Our universe, o'thoughtful Qetz? Is this universe of ours not of the mind, mostly? After all, had we listened to a 3 year old tell us about the universe recently, we might have come up with a very very different culturing.

But, alas, our handed-down warfightkillmaim methods were handed-down upon all in the same militaristic attack reflected all the way back when our most rigid stances were believed most important (and this isn't to say that more recent dynamics didn't have a hand as well, i.e. an 'insulated' Westerner unused to the seemingly impervious rigidity of your average established, statecraft-oriented rigid mind-set).

What you are currently experiencing as the accelerated evolution of technology can now be recognized for what it is: A transition between two forms of consciousness, and two planetary states. Consciousness is technology – the only technology that exists. Everything in this universe is conscious at its own level, and in the process of transformation to higher or lower states.

Oh! Whoa! Hoh! dOH! O! OoO!

– a more polite way of saying this is "Go with the flow." But either formulation is correct. Whatever you do, in fact, resist as you think you might, you are always submitting to God’s will. So why not give the process your joyful assent?

Holy shi--, YEAH! (i jus hav to wonder if the anti-existentialists will be sending their...well, why *do* i "just hav to wonder" in such a hell-stuck way, anyway???!!!!!)(heh)

– these are all states of mind. Hell is a state of mind. When you eliminate fear and attachment, when you self-liberate, you attain the Golden Age.

Ah, and it seems to me that detachment is a way we can do (consciously, seems to be the trick) when and if we feel like going there.

i say consciously because people who are usually labeled and attacked with the word "crazy" are unable to find a way to articulate, or bridge with consensus reality as current established imagination (cei) seems to work so hard wanting.

Or perhaps they are hard at work inciting us, as a form of inviting?

The task of human existence is to transform the Earth, to reconcile spirit and matter in this realm.

i recall Ken Carey and his book about the Bird Tribes which so resonated with me. i am also reminded of a Vietnamese art-house; a house that was made as if art (not commercial art, but more from the occupant's/builder's heart).

Imagine if we began living our lives and creating our world in a similar way. What would that be like?

Almost apologetically, the vehicle notes that his birthday fell in June, 1966 – 6/66 – "count the number of the Beast: for it is the number of the man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

The Beast prophecied is the "feathered serpent," Quetzalcoatl.

The mark of the Fear cultures leaves such rigid fright wherever it goes, within our heads even. Why does such momentum do such? Perhaps the movers and shakers of the consensus reality cult ure have themselves forgotten?

Or perhaps the despised Noam Chomsky touched on the truth of their bigotry, and others, those raucously discomforting anarchists, their alienation.

Those who prefer to reject all of this out of hand are welcome to do so. In the Qabalah, the virtue one seeks to establish on the "Earth Plane" is discrimination. It is up to the individual to find his way through the ideas presented here – of course he is entirely free to ignore them altogether.

Discrimination due to the fences and walls in our conditioned minds. This mind that holds these internalized values that *change with time and place*, and someone by the name of Yezdi spoke partly of in a poem in a most radical book i once stumbled onto.

[/QB]

[rare bird, o.O.]

i feel called to respond to you, even tho i am a relatively extremely new board partici pant. i think you will find value in what i have to say, and even enjoy yourself more.

>
Originally posted by lvx23:
I record existence. My recording range is only limited by the range of the senses. Whether memory is total or fragmentary I continuously receive and categorize data
====

This detached view of yourself reminds me of how elites at the toppermost epitomy of world tyranny probably think as well. Not that i'm saying you are one of they,,,

But i'm seeing an alienation from purpose. i see you buying so seemingly wholeheartedly (or at least poetically in a sense) into man as machine theory, devoid of individual meaning. i see you talking like careers soldiers imagine, military or 'political' or 'social'.

Looka yourself!

>
tagging memories with associative relationships to smells, emotions, feelings, etc... and logging them into the holographic library of experience. Yet there's some evidence to suggest that the brain records everything that's perceived, filling huge volumes of memory with even the most minute details. Who knows what the storage capacity of the holographic brain might be but it surely dwarfs even the greatest giga-terabit computers.
========

Wanting, yearning to objectify the others, but what of yourself? Do you view your own brain in such terms? Your own life? And what is this thirst of yours for utilizing others as singular tools?

>
The material world exists in 3 dimensions: XYZ. Each succesive dimension is coplanar with the prior dimension. They are coexistent in the same space. In other words, dimensions are additive and coincident - you can't experience one without all of those that precede it. Tipped on its side and rolled into motion, the 3-dimensional structure of matter is given a 4th dimension: Time. Again, all 4 dimensions exist simultaneously and isotropically. Time is meaningless without form.
==

This means that it must be true what i thought: that dogs are angels here to be exceedingly beautiful with us WHEN we are even slightly beautiful to them!

>
And as the dutiful recording devices we are
(...)
The argument of reincarnation lends a certain persistence to the vast catalog of data comprising the collective experience of creation by conscious beings.
========

chain of command imagination. Dutiful recording devices reduced from their even remembering their greatly desired individual ways of seeking and wanting! Or, are you merely putting on the masque of 'professionalism'?

(what does your masque look like, i ask you?)

>
...will continue asymptotically up the curve towards singularity, as finer and finer degrees of perception narrow our focus to the point of unity, simultaneous with the widening aperture relentlessly converging on the infinite.
===

Wow, i came up with an image of human beings becoming this metaphorical unity you talk of. Just as we come together in firm certainty that the way things are are the way things ought to be, we will come to the awareness that *we* collectively are a gargantuan SPEAR thrown by some unknowable source into a target. My feeling is that we will miss the mark, embedding ourselves into a slightly softer group of life forms, and learn this as a lesson or regroup for yet another hardened point of sorts.

Think about the shape of our beliefs. At the tip, lie the Leaders who have seemingly come to a consensus as To What Must Be Done. Behind them, legions of the dutifully reduced. Reduced from all of their individual splendor, to be utilized, for now, as a tool.

>
Terence McKenna occasionally imagined the singularity as a vast disco ball at the end of time, casting reflections of itself back through history like spinning lights on a dancefloor. If that's the case, then the apocalypse is really just a great big graduation party, fittingly drunk and emotional, nostalgic and fearful, idealistic and hopeful.

Shall we dance one more time?====

Ah, is this wit?

[Isaiah Mpski]

Shall we dance one more time
Or will you be stolen away.

The lights of New York City
they suddenly begin to sway

We enjoyed our song from yesterday
we knew we couldn't go wrong.

But here we are again
only different names.

Old frog,new pond,old pond,new frog.SPLASH.

We love you.

Mpski

[ February 10, 2005, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Isaiah Mpski ]

[paul]

"Almost apologetically, the vehicle notes that his birthday fell in June, 1966"

---------------------------------------------------------------

minor point...

but none the less...i think you'll find numerologically speaking its the birth day plus the birth month thats important and less so the year... check with cherio to be sure ...but im pretty certain this is right.

- paul.
----------------------------------

"just trust in god" - qalander proverb.

[ February 09, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: paul ]

[paul]

[ February 14, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: paul ]

[squanky]

I think that it is really funny, daniel, that you would call your self the anti-christ, as in anti-christianity. I always see the church, evangelicals, and good patriotic "christians" as the anti-christ. Not to say that all churches or christians are bad, but some of them.

I guess I just think of someone speaking out against "authority on God" would be more like Jesus, rather than satan. For that is pretty much what Jesus was doing, I believe. Saying, we don't need to sacrifice virgins, we just need to chill, and then we will enter the kingdom.

[nanouk]

1966 makes 1066, doesn't it?

the antichrist is nothing but a gateway thru the conditioning of the mind molestors of the last millenium...

a way out..a christian consciousness is key,
not blood line

or deed,

definately NOT about learnedness nor hip-ness. and(please scrap the list of books to be read.)

write your own in the sands of time,

so what if it will be washed away with the spring tide?

peace.
~N~

[forteanajones]

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/images05/050103coiled-serpent.jpg

In the Coils of the Serpent (http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050103coiled-serpent.htm) (from Thunderbolts.info)
Jan 03, 2005

The Hellenistic era saw an upsurge of 'mystery' cults, all of which centered round the figure of a divine demiurge that had come down from heaven, separated heaven and earth, died and was resurrected. This character was variously known as Osiris, Dionysus, Atthis, Adonis, Aeon, Mithra, and so on. The worshippers of Mithra commonly represented their patron god as entwined by a serpent, typically forming six or seven coils. The statue shown above was produced in 190 A. D. and is presently housed in the Vatican Museum. Other gods, such as Aeon and Cronus, were portrayed in similar guise. That the Mithraists had a penchant for cosmic symbolism needs no argument. But what did the coils of the serpent signify?

Because Mithra commonly represents the sun, specialists agree that the serpent must have some cosmological meaning. The standard interpretation is either that it symbolizes the spiraling course of the sun around the axis of the world or that it represented the zodiac. The sun travels along the zodiac and could, therefore, be imagined to be 'surrounded' by the zodiac. Vermaseren, followed by Beck, proposes that the precise number of windings – seven – was based on the number of the planets. Especially because the signs of the zodiac are sometimes seen in the spaces between the coils, this interpretation is probably correct with respect to the beliefs of the Mithraists themselves.

What is questionable, however, is the tacit assumption that the image of the serpent coiled around the god had originated as a symbol of the zodiac and the planets. The winding serpent emerges from the interpretation offered by the specialists as a garbled, composite symbol. The snake logically cannot represent the zodiac and the orbits of the planets at once because all planets move along the zodiac as a single band, not as seven bands. Nor do the zodiac or the planets 'surround' the sun like a sevenfold helix.

It seems likelier that the image of the coiling serpent ultimately traces back to a much more archaic motif without any relationship to the planets and the zodiac. In ancient Greece as well as the Near East the polar centre of the world was often represented by a 'navel stone', the most famous example of which is the omphalos at Delphi. Importantly, a snake is often wound around this navel stone in early representations. This snake is to be identified as the dragon Python, that coiled itself around Mount Parnassus, was slain by Apollo, and was buried underneath the omphalos. Mithra and his congeners were envisioned as personifications of the cosmic axis that runs through the centre of the earth. Thus, the snake that enclosed both Mithra and the 'navel stones' must originally have been some celestial phenomenon observed in association with the cosmic axis. The wider argument presented here is that the worldwide mythology of the cosmic axis was based on complex plasma formations seen during an episode of a prolonged aurora, as proposed by plasma physicist Anthony Peratt in 2003. Within that framework, the winding serpent is explained as a helical vortex formed during a turbulent phase that immediately preceded the formation of the 'stable' axial column. Significantly, plasma columns have a known propensity to form a stack of seven to nine segments. This explains the significance of the sevenfold coil at a blow.

Contributed by Marinus Anthony van der SluijsPerhaps not a holistic analysis from a BOTH/Metacine perspective, but still interesting.

[ March 09, 2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

[Isaiah Mpski]

I'm back and ready to head toward Mexico City.
Will post common bank account soon for those who are interested in building a church for Q. Parker.
Need to establish a base in this place and expand to New and old Mexico in the name of the Lord,King of King's,Lord of Lord,Host of Hosts.
The symbol I'm bringing with me is this board-the plumed serpent.

Old pond,new frog.Old frog,new pond.SPLASH!

[nanouk]

isaiah, if i could, i would send my Mother, then my siblings, thereafter five of my friends to your curative center for some true healing...
smile.gif

[Isaiah Mpski]

Dear Nanouk,
I finally uploaded a recent picture of myself on Easter Sunday to that site that Manning set up for me.
www.picturetrail.com/isaiah_mpski (http://www.picturetrail.com/isaiah_mpski)

Couldn't you think of something better to do for me?Tingle.

[ March 29, 2005, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Isaiah Mpski ]

[nanouk]

can't access it, Brother...)0:

[Isaiah Mpski]

Gee,
There is suppose to be a line in the spave between the h and the m in isaiah_mpski.
If that doesn't work I'll post it somewhere else.

I don't want to treat many people who are relatively well.I want those who find themselves in a setting of.
"...theres no more medical science can do for you.It's all in God's hands now..."

Those are the type of patients I want so everyone will know my magic is for real.

Does your mother smoke?

[nanouk]

she quit recently for three months, and then started because her new boyfriend did or something ridiculous...but now she can't.

she will not take healing anyway isaiah, it is no point.

dualities, yes, multidimensional existence deffo.
some loved one's we just have to leave behind, and hopefully one day they will wake up, of their on account.

[nanouk]

is that you float fishing Isaiah? lovely photo, wonderful setting, i love those Mandarin Sunsets, the last one i saw was at the top of Isle of Avalon...bringing Van Gogh and Wodin and Delboy up there...great time, Mission soundsystem, powered by solar panels, peaceful people, clean-ish air...

Life is Good, ain't it? :D

[AJH]

:You are a part of the string in theory, string theory, and it is possible you have removed yourself from the string through both earthly chemicals (those plants found naturally on earth) and a man-made combination from those same gems. And you have landed yourself in previous point in time of mankind through a spirit connection. I'll bet you not only in some government location in New Mexico, Nevada, and a few places in California, there is an ongoing experiment with those same plants and a few missing persons deemed dead by their living relatives and presumed dead by the appropriate authorities. The plants of course would have either been seized at immigration check points or surruptitiously brought into this country over time (1947-present). Don't dwell on the connection, but look at the history of civilizations, past, present, and yet to be, there is and always will be a significant civilization in an epoch of time--one that is "the" dominant force in the world and controlling the present technology at that particular epoch. We know the present epoch recently moved in the Aquarian time if you like astrology, it rules technology and communications, both good, bad, and unintelligible. However our own technology is short lived, about 60-80 years, as you know a couple of scientists developed the idea of space travel in 1934, with the advent of what is today NASA. Also the same year as the Telecommunications Act of 1934, phones were very rarely used, (by the populus) but.........

[Isaiah Mpski]

Yes it should be like twelve Bill Gates coming together and building His "pyramid",a giant wind machine or robot community on the moon.

[Eagle Wing]

Dear Daniel,

thank you for sharing the transmission.
it takes real courage to make your experiences public and put up a discussion board like this, and i thank you for keeping this forum open.

You wrote,
If the psyche is revealing its reality in increasingly evident increments, then perhaps everyone will get what they think they want – fire and brimstone for some, new modes of perception for others. Perhaps the Fundamentalists will even get their ascension to the Heaven they desire, but their "rapture" would definitely be my definition of a hell – a controlled society of repressed impulses and depressing judgements.

yes, i agree that the "next world" seems to intuitively cascade into the fulfillment of multiple co-existent realities. Perhaps it is much like actually ascending to a "galactic" sort of collective consciousness where you know, those old guys are still having their war over there in that system, you know? And you can go visit them even if you like, just watch out for that spiraling gravity (and the airbursts below that!!) Or, you know it would be a lot cooler to go check out what's going on in Triple Three by Five system, i hear that the water over there actually flows up!

The acoustic aspect of this is very very important. Yes, if you read even the scientists have something to say about the compression-wave reality of the galaxy.
Sun Ra said he was playing the music of the galaxy, yet that is what our consciousness may itself become its own part of....
you must check out Anthony Braxton's music, his entire work is a model of how consciousness can exist in the simultaneous presence of "everything and nothing".

ok, so this is one stream of thought, the "post-apocalyptic dissolution or dissemination". Very Age of Piscean, and certainly in line with a Christian mystical tradition, I'm really thinking of Swedenborg here, who also spoke of thoughts manifesting in mutually beheld objects and imageries between beings of light.

I like this alot & look forward to you developing the galaxy of realities line in your book. Could this even be a bridge between the spiritual traditions and a psychedelic point of view? Try not to take it out on the fundamentalists, though! let's not draw their attention by asking them to defend themselves. Wouldn't water rather be your medium of choice than fire?

You wrote,
The line in the Gospel of Thomas, "Blessed is the man who eats a lion and the lion becomes man, but cursed is the man that is devoured by the lion and the man becomes lion," would seem to be a comment on the difficulty of integrating archetypal material into the ego when the archetype descends or constellates. I was very lucky that my friend Jyoti was with me – she is a shamanic healer and also a trained Jungian analyst, and had dealt with archetypal material herself in the form of "the Mother," from whom she channels messages.

yes you are indeed lucky! I also found the Jungian perspective of the archetype to be very influential in my own attempts to sort out... the experience...

yes, yes, sit within the circle and look the lion in the eye, right?

so she is the Mother and you are the Quetzal,
hmmm...

you wrote,
hmmm... gotta think about this comment more... don’t see why Quetz would be particularly "frail and tragic," but of course the unmasking of any idol is a good thing unless it starts to become a boring adolescent habit. Perhaps we have become a bit addicted to the unmasking/undressing of idols. In my first draft, I perhaps went out of my way to unmask and undress myself before anyone else could get to it. This especially in looking at my own unintegrated situation regarding women and sexuality.

wow, i have to read your book now. What a wonderful and noble enterprise. Everybody needs to do what you did - write our own book of unmaskings. This is so important, and i see that what you are intending to do Daniel is very important for the culture.

I'd love to add a comment on the mythology of Quetzalcoatl,
especially as it relates to his sexuality, frailty and tragic (yet redemptive) nature.
The Plumed Serpent was of course also the Yucatec Cuculcan, whose pyramid is Chichen Itza, aligned to the solar zenith passage and the precessional alignment of the Pleiades.
Legend has it that Cuculcan did in fact incarnate once before...
as the king of an ancient empire. He was the most powerful sorceror of the land and lived atop a great tower where he was obsessed with spiritual practices such as fasting, bloodletting, etc. He lost touch with the people in the society around him. This allowed his dark shadow figure to infiltrate the community. (In northern Mexican tradition this figure was named Tezcatlipoca). Cuculcan's alter-ego manifested as a powerful shaman who began to disrupt the habits and traditions of the culture, inciting them to materialism and violence. Eventually, through trickery, the double infiltrated Cuculcan's palace and faced down his nemesis. In a symbolic defeat, Cuculcan was tricked into drinking 5 cups of the intoxicating alcoholic beverage Pulque. This caused Cuculcan (Quetzalcoatl) to get so tore up that he actually ended up fucking his own sister!!
Well, needless to say it was a disgrace for this man, who lost his spiritual authority among the people. Interestingly, his double disappears at this time too.
The moral of Cuculcan's downfall seems really clear-- don't deny the shadow, don't try to purify it completely out of existence, because it might come back, bite you on the ass and make you look like a schmuck. Also a great story of sexual repression and how alcohol can release it negatively... and, in another sense, this was an ancient prophecy of the fate of former president Bill Clinton... a mundane sort of moral, like most of the old religious beliefs and stories.
Cuculcan's story does not end there. He symbolically buried himself in a coffin for a while before wandering from the city as an exile. Eventually he made his way to the coast, where he sacrificed himself on a funeral pyre, and 4 days later arose as a phoenix (plumed serpent) and ascended to Heaven to become the planet Venus.
This aspect of the ancient legend associates Quetzalcoatl with Lucifer (Prometheus, morning star Venus).
is Lucifer the "antichrist?" Can't say that I'm so sure with that one, but perhaps? I have tended to think of the anti-Christ as the shadows of humanity's evil deeds, the manifested collective bad karma of the planet. Need to read more of what Steiner has to say about Lucifer to clarify my thoughts on the Christ-Lucifer-Ahriman triangulation, but Lucifer seems to me a noble, yet defiantly tragic being, a brother of Christ, not his antithesis.

Anyway, it is clear that Quetzalcoatl is, in the original myth, a threefold being of man, plumed serpent, and planet Venus.

you wrote,
I am especially concerned because I want the book to be a bridge between those who are still in the previous mindset and paradigm and those who are transitioning or transforming or beginning to remember the underlying spiritual essence of reality. I feel that the two worlds are parting now at a ferocious rate, and my work is really not meant for the New Edge/New Age folks who already get it, but to reach out to those who are still wavering.

yes! That's exactly what we need. In that case you should give this transmission time to fully seep into your pores, i think. the last thing we need, as has been stated repeatedly above, is another New Age guru to polarize with the fundamentalists. What we need is sane, competent mapping out of the territory that everyone is going to have to face --- this is true.
Everything posted on these discussion boards has some truth to it, and there's a lot of speculation surrounding all that, but the basis is that every single one of us, as human beings, must ultimately face something.

And that, is in essence the return of Quetzalcoatl, is it not?
The return is just another reiteration of the original, amplified for another, greater go-round, like an electric band covering old blues tunes and turning them into psychedelic launching pads.

We all have masks, and we are all going to die. That's it.
So your book can really really hit a spark with some of us...
there's a lot of trippers out there, you need to mix this one for the hallucinations but keep it just at that level where it's not going to inflate any egos or hurt anyone... a noble and exacting challenge to you, Daniel.
With greatest respect.
In lakech

[daniel]

thanks for the post eagle wing!

as for Tezcatlipoca, "smoking mirror," associated with black obsidian. If you read my first book, I describe my own occult initiation with DPT, leading to release of a daemonic entity, which was reabsorbed with use of a black obsidian orb brought by my friend Charity from Mexico. I knew nothing of Quetz-Tez at that point. Now it seems that was part of my process of "constellating the archetype," in Jungian terms.

Now, what does Tezcatlipoca symbolize? I believe he represents what Jean Gebser called the "magic structure" of consciousness, and what the tenth-century legend of Ce Acatl Quetz is describing is an attempt, that failed, to overcome the ambiguous magic consciousness through the rational ego (ending human sacrifice, and the like). The failure of Ce Acatl to fulfill this led to the decline of Mesoamerican civilization into the unmediated magic structure, leading to the Aztecs performing 70,000 sacrifices a year to keep the "fifth sun" alive.

The "magic structure" is akin to the Luciferic consciousness that arose in Alesteir Crowley after his reception of the Book of the Law in Egypt, an imbalanced and demanding form of consciousness that is amoral and has the quality of a debauched 60s rock-star ego. Crowley submitted to this archetypal force, believing utterly in its perspective. He was also attempting to catalyze the "great beast 666" archetype of the Book of Rev.

Not just me as an individual but all of those who are engaged in this area can now reintegrate those energies at a higher level of self-knowledge and compassion and sacrifice. This is also Steiner's description of how the Luciferic (and Ahrimanic) energies have to be worked with - they cannot be denied or repressed, they always work upon the human being, but the question is how much consciousness you can bring to the process and how you can walk the balance-beam between them. Similarly, in Carl Jung's great essay, "Answer to Job," he noted that the Christian trinity was giving way to a psychic quaternity, and the fourth element, suppressed since the beginning of the Christian Aeon, was the Devil, who now had to be consciously recognized and given his due.

This is also apparent in the crop formations which insist repeatedly on the "squaring of the circle," symbol of the quaternity.

[Eagle Wing]

yes, squaring the circle exactly. The crop circles are very poignant.
I think Mandalas are the most basic symbol of total consciousness, a ubiquitous trans-cultural image.

Jung's commentary on Job was very influential on me as well, but i liked Aion even more, especially the discussion of the quarternity.

that's interesting that for the mesoamerican continuum, the "shadow" force was the rational set... while for our present place and time it is clearly the opposite. There's always the dynamic tension between left and right...

I need to read more of Steiner's expositions on Lucifer, Ahriman & Christ, do you have any particular works to recommend?

I think a metaphysical discussion of the twins should also be important for knowing more about what we're dealing with in 2012, what do you think? I am also curious about the mesoamerican beliefs about the Pleiades ("the rattle"). the rattle imagery evokes the shaman. We live during the time period of a Solar/Pleiades conjunction at the zenith passage above Chichen Itza, and this astronomical/architectural alignment was designed with a look forward to our present day... do you have thoughts on this significance?
The Return of Quetzalcoatl seems to be timed generally to the galactic alignment of Winter Solstice with the Galactic Center, but since this occurred most exactly in 1998, there must be other factors in the long count target... i suspect the Pleiades alignment with the pyramid at Chichen Itza must be one aspect of this, especially as the shadow drama directly evokes the plumed serpent's return.
And what of the "return of Quetzalcoatl" predicted by Hopi and Aztec that was in the year 1 Reed, - the arrival of Cortes?

[Van Gogh]

I'm seeing that the plumes are the Central American nations or maybe to start off with,the Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma.
Are there any true Indians on this board besides johndonaldson.
By the way,what is a true Indian?
I have no doubt that some Native Americans lived to be 400 years old between Ericson and Cortez.

The time for catastrophic phenomenon is long overdue and I predict a volcano that will alter the earth temperatures for two years at least in the near future.It will either purge or unite the earth.
Few crops,and that reminds me,there are several plants that enjoy such environment. I'm going to gather their seeds.

[forteanajones]

Moved my response over to Psychiatry and It's all Ok (http://www.breakingopenthehead.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000069;p=12).

Van Gogh:
Are there any true Indians on this board besides johndonaldson.

[ April 18, 2005, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

[Strelitzia]

Another take on 2012

This is from an esoteric astrology-based website that channels information from the ascended Master Khutumi: www.dkfoundation.co.uk. (http://www.dkfoundation.co.uk.)

I am Kuthumi. Many of you know of me as Master K.H.; some of you know that at this time I stand at the head of those who teach on the Second Ray. It is in this capacity that I address you now.
The identity of my collaborator in this undertaking is a matter of no concern. It is consistent with both the aim of the exercise and the wishes of my collaborator that the intermediary’s role be obscured by direct reportage of what was said by me during our many interviews which commenced as the year 2004 closed.
The aim of this undertaking is to put in place knowledge that will equip us to deal with the events of 2012. I say ‘we’ because in this matter the Hierarchy is one with mankind, and preparing you for this momentous event is something for which, long ago, the Hierarchy assumed full responsibility.
These communications will take the form of a series of open letters, twelve in all, laying out the considerations that will shape man and his spirituality after the Planetary Initiation that will reach the physical stage of expression in 2012.
These communications are designed to have a wide readership; they are not simply for those with an interest in esoteric teachings. The delivery is intentionally direct and factual. My collaborator and I have put much effort into finding the words and expressions that will make these communications easy to understand.
I am calling these communications the Red Letters and, as you read them, I encourage you all to ponder why this should be.

The awareness that major physical changes will occur on our Planet in 2012 is growing apace. Yet for all this, the reality is that we are we are facing this time seriously ill-equipped.
My brothers, from the spiritual angle mankind is in a worse condition than it has been at any time in the modern age. In other periods, materialism has held mankind in its grip and spirituality has been downgraded and rejected, but there has never been a time when materialism has been called spirituality, as is the case now. The confusion that is resulting from this is costing you dearly[i].
Humanity has made extraordinary choices in the past 100 years. It has chosen ease and egotism; but it did not have to be this way. The knowledge that would have informed other, more helpful choices has been available for generations.
For its part, the Hierarchy has both underestimated the problem and made errors of judgment. Our biggest error was that we did not envision that man would reject the knowledge and perspectives of the Initiate in preference for astral excitement. We anticipated a different response to the knowledge that we have provided in the last century[ii]. We assumed that it would be a spur to mental development, and we failed to read aright. the signs that were telling us that this was not the case. Our sense of commitment and responsibility have not lessened, and it is with deep sorrow that we work now to try and improve the situation
My collaborator has had to be made aware of this sorrow and it has been a heavy burden, one of many connected with this undertaking.
As I have said, in this matter mankind and the Hierarchy are one. As you might say, we are in this together. We appreciate that more detail about the purpose and nature of events in 2012 may help mankind to focus on its own role, and such detail is the substance of this Introduction.
Let it be understood that survival of the physical events of 2012 is matter of choice because the necessary warnings and organisation, and the knowledge of how to survive will all be in place.
How many will choose to leave their possessions and attachments? This is the nature of the choice to be made[iii].
The Red Letters are for those who would cut through astral confusion and remain on dry land. They are for those who intend to survive 2012 to take mankind on to the next stage of its journey.

The nature of the Event
The nature of the occurrences of 2012 will be appreciated where there is understanding of the mystery of baptism and, specifically, the purpose of immersion.
Immersion in water heals and restores. There are those who view the immersion of an infant at baptism as an act of unkindness because that is the way that human thinking has gone; and there are those who will view the immersion of terra firma in water as a judgement upon mankind. This is not the case.
In 2012, to permit it to raise its vibration, the planet will see its most polluted parts immersed. Physical pollution reflects astral pollution. Man is partially, but not wholly, responsible for creating those astrally low places but, unavoidably, he is caught up in the situation. It is the habit of self-centredness that makes him think he is the cause.
As a general statement, the terrain north of 65 degrees will be above the global upheaval. This will be the safe zone[iv].
There will be other locations below 65 degrees North pre-designated as safe, and information about them will be released at appropriate times, through the appropriate channels.
The territory above 65 degrees North is open to anyone who is able to make and to take the decision to leave what is familiar to him.
Survival is a matter of choice.

The physical process
On December 17th & 18th 2012, the configuration of planets interacting with stellar influences will pull our planet into a more upright position[v].
The situation may be likened to a bent person straightening up.
This motion will change the moon’s orbit.
Amongst the effects of this will be, that:
1. The moon will be visible from only a relatively small proportion of the Earth’s surface
2. The changed angle of Earth’s axis in respect of the sun will create a more temperate and more uniform climate on the planet
3. The changed angle of its axis will also mean that new constellation will be identifiable from Earth[vi].
In time, as a result of this process, the energies removed from Earth and infusing with the moon will bring about a similar process on the moon itself which will then develop its own moon. This involutionary process, however, need not be our concern.

The effect upon Man
These changes will encourage the consciousness of mankind to orient itself differently. Man will become more spiritual in the sense that its mental capacity will increase as lower energies are expelled.
Amongst these lower energies are the involutionary tendencies. As these are expelled, so man’s astral body will be cleansed of its separatist tendencies. Although his astral vehicle will still constitute his lower principles, that part of man will not be involutionary, as is the case at present.
The increasing of mental capacity means that man will respond differently to stellar energies.
As stated previously, new constellations will also be created by the changed relationship of Earth to the celestial backdrop and this will admit new influences into Earth’s energy field

The Zodiac
Although it will not change in its construction, the Zodiac will be understood differently because a higher energy will be able to flow through it. The result of this will be that it will become more expressive of man’s potential and less concerned with his liabilities.
Each man will know his purpose and he will school his emotional nature to assist him fulfil that purpose.
The purpose of the Zodiac will be to encourage and direct aspiration and exist as a matrix for the refinement of man’s astral vehicle. Rather than distributing energy as is the case at present, the signs will be perceived to act as magnets, drawing emotional energy upwards and giving it direction.
The Astrology of the future will emphasise the Seven Suns, and the esoteric and the Hierarchical rulers of the signs, which are as the Master DK has given out. The conventional rulers of the signs will be abandoned.
The twelve spiritual principles outlined in these Letters anticipate the Zodiac of the future.
Amongst the Hierarchy, it is hoped that the present time will see preparation being made for these changes.

The Spirituality of Man
At present, the emotional body of man is dominated by selfish, separatist urges and his spirituality is a response to these urges. Spirituality now is shaped by the efforts of the isolated individual to hold down his lower nature.
The spirituality of the future will be based upon a realisation of potential. The difference between these two assumptions and, in consequence, in the quality of the spirituality arising from them is far greater than you suppose.
Owing to the involutionary nature of the lower self at present spiritual impulse meets with resistance. This will not be the case in the future when man’s emotional nature will welcome the energy that is to refine and direct it. Man’s spirituality will be informed by the need to give structure and direction to the emotional self. At present the emotional self does not want this kind of discipline: it wants to be allowed to gratify its selfish, separatist urges.
At the time of and after 2012, survival will be dependent upon group endeavour and co-operation will be the centre-piece of consciousness where now is self-centredness.
Earth will become a more harmonious and constructive place, a place where God’s plan meets with conscious cooperation.
The religion of the future will be based upon the recognition and reverence of the Intelligences residing in each of the twelve signs, and upon encouraging co-operation with them. The nature of these Intelligences will be understood through their Hierarchical rulers, and man will attend at their altars. They will be more influential than the parents in the shaping of a child’s life[vii].
Man’s emotional body
The emotional body of Man will be refined by the cataclysmic events of in 2012 and will become aspirational in nature. At present aspiration represents the highest expression of a vehicle driven by desire.
After 2012 the etheric body of our planet will support only those members of the human family with the heart centre open or ready to open. Those who have not attained this level of development will go, of necessity, into another system, into which the animal kingdom will eventually gain entry[viii].
This is not the first time that such a process of refinement has removed from the planet’s etheric body members of the human kingdom below a certain level of development. Tracking the withdrawal of involutionary lines, however, has never been a part of the teaching of the Masters.
Beside, man knows it. Over the ages, his consciousness has been impressed by this knowingness and by the need to look to himself. He does not need to be told anymore. His need is to take note of what he knows.
In the time that remains, practice replacing covetousness with aspiration, and isolation and self-centredness with purposeful endeavour. Express the quality of life bestowed upon you by the Sun in its sign and become yourself a conscious, active, contributing part of our Solar Logos, for it is He whom we name when we speak of God.
There are now places on Earth where you can walk and be strengthened in who you are and what you know. Find these places out and help yourselves as we try to help you.
My brothers, these communications are offered as a challenge but also as a lifeline.
KH

[Thom]

There seems to be a lot of these entities prowling the information grapevine. I agree with DeKorne, they're often vampires who need human attention as flames need oxygen. KH seems particularly uninspiring.

[felix4life]

http://images.epilogue.net/users/hanenone/Coatl2.jpg

[Strelitzia]

Yes Thom. uninspiring it might be, not being enveloped in mythology, however it is more specific than 'the end is nigh' and that's what I like about it

[Eagle Wing]

dear Felix4,
thanks for the beautiful drawing. I love that moment, it really touches the unpredictability of the dragon.

[Douglas]

Is there evil in this world? Are there people who will lie, steal, even murder? If so, is it not possible that there could be evil in the "other", spirit, world? So, just as there are people who will lie, steal, and murder, there might be spirits who would at least lie, and perhaps steal and murder if they could.

"Lying spirits" lie. It's what they do. And they are legion. What's important is being able to discern lies from truth. Daniel, you've been lied to, I'm afraid. It happens.

It's interesting that at least some of these "lying spirits" are promoting the lie about some literal or metaphorical "Return of Quetzalcoatl", and that they would present it in this way:

This universe spontaneously self-organizes into higher levels of consciousness and wisdom.No, it does not.

Underlying all are great cosmic entities or vibrational fields, alternately at play or at rest. Not satisfied with mere enlightenment, the god-form Quetzalcoatl still seeks to puzzle out the workings of these deeper forces – hence the reason for his return to your realm."God-form"? There is only one God, but many would-be "gods" who hate the truth.

He and his kind have been granted this world for their continued exploration – made with loving reverence – of the many layers of galactic intelligence, cosmic illusion, daemonic beauty, and telluric transformation.Truth hidden in a profound lie: "He and his kind" likely refer to Satan/Lucifer and his demonic host - the Bible says that in the Last Days, Satan will be cast out of Heaven (he apparently currently has access even to God's throne room), along with his fallen angels, to Earth, and will be allowed a very short period (3 1/2 to 7 years, depending) to deceive the people of the Earth into worshipping him.

All are invited to participate with them.You betcha. The more the merrier, in the rebellion against God, is Satan's motto.

Now, the Bible indicates that in the Last Days, a man will arise from the "Revived Roman Empire" who will gain control of that kingdom, and will eventually rule the entire world. He will "exalt himself above every god", while at the same time he will exalt "a foreign god, a god which his fathers did not know" (Daniel 7). This individual will come from the 11th nation to have joined that "Revived Roman Empire" (the "little horn" rising after the first 10 horns will be the nation out of which this person, the Antichrist, will arise). Spain was the 11th nation to join the European Union (which appears to be the Roman Empire "Revived").

Also, there is an interesting connection between Spain and Quetzalcoatl: historically, the Indians thought Cortes, a Spaniard, was Quetzalcoatl, and in their mythology, Quetzalcoatl had departed over the waters to the East, vowing to return. King Juan Carlos maintains close ties to Latin and South American peoples and cultures, even taking part in at least the first portion of a trek from Cuzco to Macchu Picchu (if I am remembering, and spelling, correctly), sometime back in 1994 or 1995.

Interestingly, Spain had a pro football team in "NFL Europe" for a number of years, called "The Barcelona Dragons" (I think they are now defunct). Even more interestingly, the team logo was a dragon's head done in Mayan or Aztec style - it even bears a very close resemblance, in many non-trivial ways, to a relatively well-known painting/piece of art of Quetzalcoatl. (I can email the photos, if anyone is interested in comparing them.)

Furthermore, in relation to a leader from Spain, Quetzalcoatl would fit, very well, the prophecy from Daniel 7 I mentioned earlier:
...he will exalt a "foreign god, a god which his fathers did not know".Quetzalcoatl is a "foreign god" to the Spanish people and culture, yet Spain has a strong connection to "him", after a fashion. Also, the mythology regarding Quetzalcoatl would allow an individual to claim to "be" Quetzalcoatl (his reincarnation, or his "fulfillment", or having his "spirit"), yet still "exalt" the idealized, unmanifested, Quetzalcoatl. Thus, someone could, while exalting this idealized Quetzalcoatl, at the same time "exalt himself above every god", due to the fact he would claim to be, in a sense, Quetzalcoatl.

We are in the Last Days. But the Last Days spoken of in the Bible, not those described by the "lying spirits" who know that their time is short.

(God Himself has spoken to me a number of times, and I have personal experience confronting several demons. I know whereof I speak. [And, I have not always been a Christian - in fact, I was an atheist/agnostic for at least 8 years prior to the night in October of 1989 when God cast a demon out of me while I was driving.])

[ July 17, 2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[Douglas]

"Look for diamonds on the sidewalk." -- KerouacI tried that, once, and missed the jewels and precious stones that walked by me. ;)

[Rob P]

douglas i think you missed the jewels and precious
stones because you were too busy thumpin' that ol' bible......

;) :rolleyes:

[Douglas]

Rob,

Like those smilies, eh? smile.gif

Anyway, no, I am not a "Bible Thumper", but rather a "Bible expositor/pseudo-scholar". "Bible Thumping" is too hard on my wrists.

[Douglas]

By the way, Rob (and Daniel, and anyone else reading), when I was 13 (back in mid 1976), I had a waking vision. I was a sort of Christian at the time, only attending a church by parental force, and that a mere "Sunday only, let's have some coffee and chat about work" -type of church. For some weeks I had been reading a lot about Jesus in the Gospels, His acts and words, and on this particular evening I was shooting some pool in the basement - and I was alone in the house, which I thought was pretty neat.

Anyway, I had been listening to my older brother's Kiss album, "Destroyer". I liked the music/beat, and justified listening to it by making up my own lyrics as I listened, lyrics which glorified Jesus. I had been doing this for maybe 10 minutes, when I all of a sudden had this vision of Kiss at a huge and packed stadium, and I had a "revelation" of a spiritual reality regarding them - I had stopped shooting pool, and was just standing, and said to myself, about Kiss, "They're just peons" (meaning that, in spiritual terms, they weren't very "big potatoes", and weren't really all that important).

Now, before this vision, I had never thought of any person or group or institution in this manner - I had never thought of there being any "spiritual influence", other than just the global "good vs. evil" of God and Satan. I had never had any real inkling of there being a heirarchy of evil. Until that night, that is. And I somehow had an immediate knowledge of the reality of this heirarchy, and I realized, without really being conscious of it, that it was set up against Jesus.

So as I stood there, I became filled with righteous anger that any would dare to exalt themselves against Jesus (I didn't consciously think in these terms - the feeling just came to me). And I said the following:

"I go beyond all these levels. I go beyond them. I know this is real; I KNOW this is real. I go beyond all these lower levels."And as I said these things, I could almost literally feel myself, my spirit in some fashion, being "taken" beyond those "lower (spiritual) levels". Somehow, I knew there was a being at the "top", and in my righteous anger, I felt moved to confront him. And soon I felt I had his attention (I felt that I was somehow "in his presence", but in a slightly removed way), and I said:
"You are not God! You are NOT God!!"And once I felt that I had gotten my message across, I was immediately "transported" to my ordinary, day-to-day, experience. My "consciousness" was once again "contained" in the room. And, while I was having the vision, I was perfectly conscious of where I physically was, but the spiritual reality seemed even more real.

What I have shared is the absolute truth of what I recall. Whether or not one believes that I actually experienced those things as I described them is a separate matter. I do not lie, and my memory is very good, especially regarding such things (not to mention that I wrote down the experience some years later).

Note that before the vision, I had no idea of any heirarchy of evil, nor that there was one at the "top". I knew about Satan, but I only envisioned him as the most powerful of the demons, not as their leader, nor that the demons were subservient to him.

In my opinion, I confronted not Satan, actually, but the Antichrist, who I believe is alive on the Earth. Perhaps it was Satan, but the Antichrist would fit as leader of an evil heirarchy, except his realm is the human, rather than the demonic.

I am completely serious about all of this.

[waterthere]

Hey Douglas,

Great posts!

I, for one, appreciate the courage and resolve it must have taken to have out with them. I'd also agree with your interpretation that Daniel's visions, and his interpretation of the visions, are the result of direct spiritual manipulation on the part of very questionable entities. This Quetzalcoatl seems to be a pretty unsubtle manifestation of 'the beast' described to no end in Revelations and the ideas it's espousing are so completely antithetical to highend, contemplative Christian experience that it's almost comical. Of course 'the beast' is going to offer us the mirage of a next step in the evolution of consciousness/knowledge---that's what it's game has been about since it manifested as the mythical influence that inspired humanity into embracing a false hope in 'consciousness', a separation from God, and a belief in our own potential 'godliness', thousands of years ago.

Don't believe the lies, folks, or the lies about the lies about the lies...

Be very wary of the occult's diffusion/distortion of basic truths...

Even if, say, Rudolph Steiner, was phenomenologically correct in, say, distinguishing between 'Luciferic' entities and 'Satanic' entities, he wasn't necessarily immune to manipulation on the part of archetypal manifestations---we've been warned quite overtly that this is highly seductive, dangerous bullshit, and, personally I wouldn't trust any modern/deconditioned soul to sort through it successfully.

With unconditional love,

waterthere

[tana]

ahhh...good ol' fear-based fundamentalism...anyone brave enough to think outside the lines in their search for truth is obviously in the grips of ...*shudder*... The Beast !

it must be sooo warm and cozy, all wrapped up in that goddamn bible.

forgive the snide sarcasm...i must need another cup of coffee.

[waterthere]

Hey Tana---

I'd suggest that you could step out of your own preconceptions about 'fundamentalism' and not see it through cliche and misunderstanding. It's not fear-based anymore than Daniel's message is and it's definitely never very 'cosy' when it's done right. Take this situation for example---a couple folks bring up an opposing perception of things and they're reacted to with awkward silence and reflexive sarcasm.

Everybody resents the Xian, huh? Crazies amongst the crazies...

And, personally, I'll applaud anyone willing to step away from conventional thinking into more intuitive territory, but I'm going to warn folks when I suspect they might be being suckered.

And Daniel brought it up the notion himself, in his Quetzalcoatl Transmission:

"Almost apologetically, the vehicle notes that his birthday fell in June, 1966 – 6/66 – "count the number of the Beast: for it is the number of the man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

"The Beast prophecied is the "feathered serpent," Quetzalcoatl."

Sounds like the 'vehicle' is being used, yes? Does the 'vehicle' really understand why and for what?

waterthere

[Rob P]

yes, but....

every fundamentalist believes that
fundamentally, his truth is the truth,
the only truth, and nothing but the truth....

so you take that and you tell it to the fundamentalist
muslim, and the fundamentalist hindu, the fundamentalist
atheist, and the fundamentalist jew....tell them how your truth
is the be all and end all and see how they perceive it!!!!!

or would it be easier for you to just kill them into
belief and submission, as has been the way for
about as long as these preposterous notions
have been in existence!

you are insane- fundamentally insane-
if you honestly believe that any written
word can represent anything approaching truth.....

it's all fingers pointing at the moon....

why don't you stop with all the glorification
of your finger...enjoy the rest of the hand,
and just stare at the freakin' moon
with your own eyes......

geez- it takes thousands of years
for you all to get it, will it ever end???

breaking open your own head is so much better
than reading books filled with other
people's lies and myths.....

seeya
r o b

[ July 18, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Rob P ]

[sidecross]

“..With unconditional love,

waterthere”

Where is the ‘unconditional’ love?

[waterthere]

This is fun stuff...

Sorry to be stirring up so much mysterious bile here. Let's try think of this as a playful discussion of differing opinions, huh?

And I'm not a fundamentalist by any stretch
and nothing I've written here would indicate that.
If you'd look at what I've been saying with the same generousity you would have people do for your own opinion, and stop reacting from your preconceptions, you might notice that we have more in common than you think. I'm happily participating in a message board hinging on the intelligent/spiritual use of hallucinogens for example...

There are many different forms of Christianity, guys and you can't blame all of us for what the assholes are guilty of. In all fairness..

waterthere

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass..."

[waterthere]

"breaking open your own head is so much better
than reading books filled with other
people's lies and myths..."

To break your head open without a pure heart is to welcome in lies and any self-interested myth.

"Breaking Open the Head" is filled with well-intended, unintentional lies that perpetuate the manipulation and feeding of autonomous myths.

Careful now,

water there

[AWZ]

Is it reasonable to assume that man is more capable than he believes?

Read here...

Even if, say, Rudolph Steiner, was phenomenologically correct in, say, distinguishing between 'Luciferic' entities and 'Satanic' entities, he wasn't necessarily immune to manipulation on the part of archetypal manifestations---we've been warned quite overtly that this is highly seductive, dangerous bullshit, and, personally I wouldn't trust any modern/deconditioned soul to sort through it successfully. - waterthere

Who has done the warning? Who has sounded the horn? Why such an impossibility? And who has set these limitations?

Where does 'divine' wisdom come from? Where does revelation find meaning?

I say, the divine, the revelatory experience and the meaning of life are all found within the depths of man. Found in the souls of those who were courageous enough to have walked the path of Knowledge.

Waterthere, you look to the mountain with hopes of the saviour, yet know not that the rock and mountain is within you. This is not something to fear, it is reason to rejoice.

Be very wary of the occult's diffusion/distortion of basic truths...

The fear of the unknown is that which should be guarded against, not the unknown itself. What do you understand waterthere of the 'occult'? I see you now, as with most you have mighty righteous perceptions about words and concepts that sound eerie and frightfully different. 'Occult', say it, it stirs up a dread in you, a dread that is merely a fixated response caused by your social conditioning derived over decades of fear mongering at the hands of the hierarchy. What does the word 'occult' mean waterthere? Dealings with mysterious forces, supernatural abilities, divination, ceremony, hidden meanings, this can be referred to as occultism, though it can also very appropriately be a reference to the Bible.

What do you know of the Bible waterthere? What do you know about its real significance? Do you know that Jesus is said to have taught 'in secret'? Do you know that Jesus commanded abilities you would refer to as occultic? Do you know that Jesus spoke of others who would come that were greater than he?

You mix apples and oranges and call them grapes, and speak with a false assuredness as though the grapes were actually really there. You judge without knowledge and thus simply condemn yourself to ignorance.

That man can raise himself up and attain greater wisdom and ability is not something to look upon with shame. For those who would dedicate themselves to the Way of Light and who will shed themselves of all that is untrue and walk with honesty and openness, who is to say what cannot be realized by those rare individuals?

As a caveat I will say, in the times ahead, which are not just the 'end times' but also the 'beginning times', with much wailing and gnashing of teeth (as with any birth) there will be great deception by those who have been bred to be magical in appearance, by those whose deeds lack Christ, whose submission is not to the Creator but to the Praetors. It will take a very responsible and discerning humanity to notice the difference, not a fearful superstitious mass, but a mass that recognizes fundamental truth against a backdrop of pseudo wisdom and false context (holographic projection ~ mental environment control). Begin to learn the Word when it is spoken, not as you think it to be, for what you believe to be true and what is in fact true may not be in harmonious conjunction.

In Truth,
Angelo

[snow]

Wow, and I am just starting to understand that conspiracy theory is really the understory of colonialism and slavery, that the Apocalpyse,is the Revelation of the Christian moment, that the concept of TIME is Christian, in a sense, when the veil is ripped and suffering is seen for a passion play,

The Revelation is what happens for any soul who breaks through, but that a collective one is coming now.

(myself, I love the buddha tara, for she showed me her mind, and that is love for everything...everything....everything,..... everything .....)

[Douglas]

I ask again, for those who have posted recently in this thread and who view my views as essentially fundamentalist rantings:

Do some people lie, steal, and murder? Is it possible that there might be spirit beings who lie, and perhaps would steal and murder? If so, how does one determine and discern the truth?

Also, regarding the "accusation" that my views are founded on "fear" and "Christian fundamentalism" - I don't think you read my posts carefully. The fact is, my views (regarding the spirit world) are based on (found their origin in) my experiences - it just so happens that my experiences match with what the Bible teaches about spiritual reality.

And, I was an atheist/agnostic (almost exclusively hard-core atheist) for at least 8 years before being saved. And I was saved by no less than God's DIRECT intervention in my life, supernaturally. I wasn't seeking God, didn't believe in God (or spirits), and hadn't been reading anything about God or about Christianity or about "Christian fundamentalism", when (to make a longer story shorter) God cast a demon out of me while I was driving. Just like that. In the space of probably less than 20 seconds (perhaps even less than a second [my sense of time was stretched or skewed during the experience]), I went from an adamant atheist, disbelieving in God and in any sort of "spiritual world" (including telepathy or other such things), to complete belief in and knowledge of God, and of Jesus as Savior. Just like that. A 180-degree turn-around, much like Saul the Persecutor becoming Paul the Apostle.

(P.S.: Thanks for your encouragement, waterthere.)

[ July 18, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[Douglas]

waterthere: Everybody resents the Xian, huh? Crazies amongst the crazies....We always strive to excel. ;)

[Lowlight]

"Imagine theres...no...heaven,

Its easy if you...try."

I went for a bath...in mystery...for there was nothing else to bathe in.

I was saved...but i wonder for how long?

I fell before the Lord...until the Lord did become my enemy.

I saw the gates of truth open...to the land of the living and the free.

I knew not what those words meant, i knew not what those words meant.

The mask of the redeemer, fell, and i saw the face of the beast everywhere, i saw the face of the saviour, everywhere.

All i ever wanted to do, was to walk to death like a child to its mothers arms,

more than that...i did not want.

[waterthere]

Great stuff, guys!

Douglas does a good job of narrowing down what we're trying to get across here:

"Do some people lie, steal, and murder? Is it possible that there might be spirit beings who lie, and perhaps would steal and murder? If so, how does one determine and discern the truth?"

I'm not demonizing all occult thinking---that phrase was poorly chosen on my part, sorry. All I'm suggesting, and I'm doing it out of playfulness, and, yes 'unconditional love', is that aligning yourself with a archetypal entity that admits blatantly that it's a long-prophesized negative force is probably not a good idea. If you're inclined to distrust the negative interpretation of the Beast archetype because it's a conspiracy perpetuated by the 'hierarchy', then you're welcome to go right ahead. Good luck with that.

Apparently I have to repeat myself here: I'm not at all opposed to searching outside the established lines for meaning and understanding, in fact we aren't really left with much choice in the matter considering how incredibly stagnant and sheltered most Christian theology is.

And, AWZ:

I'm quite aware of gnostic ideas and can actually relate to them very well. I wholeheartedly agree that the essence of truth in Christian ideas has been buried and profoundly abused/maligned since the very beginning and continues to be hugely misunderstood even by most 'Christians'. In some ways especially by most Christians...

(Incidentally, your post about synthetics is great---amazing stuff.)

Please let's stop projecting this accrued resentment (that has nothing to do with what we're trying to say) and treat each others ideas with respect...

takegoodcare,

waterthere

[tana]

be wary...be careful...don't be deceived into believing in your own godliness...we've been warned about this dangerous bullshit... sigh.

i feel the need to quote J.Lilly here:

"What one believes to be true either is true or becomes true in one's mind, within limits to be determined experimentally and experientially. These limits are beliefs to be trancended."

i feel that one's own spirirual evolution is a vital pursuit...it's the hero's journey, and this "search for truth" will lead to a full experience of life, and the realization of one's own godliness...and i believe that this pursuit requires one to break free from culture's collective dream (nightmare?) and continually challenge & move beyond one's own prevailing set of limiting beliefs...i strongly feel that the willingness to fearlessly challenge these limiting beliefs systems (as opposed to being smothered by them) is the road to salvation! i truely see this situation as choosing life vs. choosing death.

fear prevents spiritual growth...it hinders free thought & free will...and imposing such irrational fear on others (as evangelists do) is a Beastly thing to do.

[daniel]

waterthere and Douglas,

i am quite happy to see this thread take this particular turn - thanks for speaking up.

My feeling about the Quetzalcoatl material is that the proof could only be in the pudding, which still lies ahead of us in linear time. Otherwise I feel free to be skeptical of my own revelation, and would expect others to take the same approach. If my work somehow (and it looks unlikely from this present point) helps to have some positive transformational effect on the planet, then this Quetzalcoatl stuff may have some deeper meaning or resonance. As of now, the jury is out. However, I have still had to deal with it as personal experience of archetypal material, and it hasn't been easy.

My own feeling about Christ accords to a large extent with Steiner's, and with JG Bennett's writings on Gurdjieff and his wonderful little book, "The Masters of Wisdom." I think that Christ was indeed an avatar of divinity, arriving at the necessary point in our linear history from his place in the "space-timeless" archetypal realm. I think that his original teachings were given a scrubbing before they entered the canonical Bible, and I accord the Gospel of Thomas especially as having as much significance as the big four.

I don't expect Christ to make a literal "second coming" as a literal being (nor a weapons-toting zealot as in the Left Behind series), but I do think that the "second coming" is almost here, as a movement into a new level of heart-centered consciousness.

waterthere, one thing you might be careful about (as I advised AWZ recently) is not to valorize your own initatory or spiritual experiences more than other people's. Illuminations come in all shapes and sizes, designed for the particular soul they are meant to fit. If you review my other writings in this forum, you will note that my current perspective is that there is no such thing as a unitary absolute Truth - that truth is more like a system of values as in a painting, as Nietzsche said, or a level of tonal vibrations like in a musical composition - in other words, reality itself is more like a work of art than it is like a scientific proof. All I can offer as a writer, thinker, or human being is my own vector, my own fractal shard of wisdom and experience as it has presented itself to me, and do it as rigorously and truthfully as possible. That is all anyone can do.

So as for "the Beast" archetype, i think it is cleverly open for interpretation in the Biblical narrative of Apocalypse, and what currently feels closest to accurate to me is John Michell's reading of it in "The New View of Atlantis," that the Beast represents an amoral solar deity that was pre-Christian yet recognized and incorporated symbolically into early Christian architecture such as the Glastonbury Cathedral, and then cast out along with the movement into linear rationality which has been the story of modernity since the Middle Ages until last week. Just as with the casting out of the feminine side of God from Christianity (and the demonization of wise women for retaining intuitive and psychic powers not to mention knowledge of medicinal and magical plants), the casting out of the amoral solar principle of the Beast had negative repercussions. For Jung, both the feminine aspect of the Godhead and the Luciferic aspect had to be consciously realized and reintegrated by modern man if he wanted to cease projecting his own shadow into the world. That is what I think the Beast might represent.

As for "god" casting out a demon from you, I could have many responses. One would be, how do you know it was "god" that did this - rather than, for instance, the Gnostic demiurge, who has god-like powers in this world, but seeks to keep us ensnared in veils of ignorance? When I watch, for instance, fundamentalist preachers or Christian television shows, it is clear to me that what is operating them is not "god" but the powers of the Archons, who love to run the show if they can compell belief from worshippers.

My own personal take on God is consonant with William Blake's: "God only Acts, & Is, in existing beings and men." I don't think there is any god above or outside of us, but that the universal consciousness in which we all participate is God. We only evolve by taking complete responsibility for our own actions, realizing immanence rather than transcendence.

I like Andrew Cohen's remarks in a recent issue of What is Enlightenment: "the depth of our conscious engagement with the evolutionary process is the very edge of development itself (assuming we're actually pushing the edge). And the leading edge does not preexist."

Or as Christ put it: "I and the Father are one."

[daniel]

waterthere and Douglas,

i am quite happy to see this thread take this particular turn - thanks for speaking up.

My feeling about the Quetzalcoatl material is that the proof could only be in the pudding, which still lies ahead of us in linear time. Otherwise I feel free to be skeptical of my own revelation, and would expect others to take the same approach. If my work somehow (and it looks unlikely from this present point) helps to have some positive transformational effect on the planet, then this Quetzalcoatl stuff may have some deeper meaning or resonance. As of now, the jury is out. However, I have still had to deal with it as personal experience of archetypal material, and it hasn't been easy.

My own feeling about Christ accords to a large extent with Steiner's, and with JG Bennett's writings on Gurdjieff and his wonderful little book, "The Masters of Wisdom." I think that Christ was indeed an avatar of divinity, arriving at the necessary point in our linear history from his place in the "space-timeless" archetypal realm. I think that his original teachings were given a scrubbing before they entered the canonical Bible, and I accord the Gospel of Thomas especially as having as much significance as the big four.

I don't expect Christ to make a literal "second coming" as a literal being (nor a weapons-toting zealot as in the Left Behind series), but I do think that the "second coming" is almost here, as a movement into a new level of heart-centered consciousness.

waterthere, one thing you might be careful about (as I advised AWZ recently) is not to valorize your own initatory or spiritual experiences more than other people's. Illuminations come in all shapes and sizes, designed for the particular soul they are meant to fit. If you review my other writings in this forum, you will note that my current perspective is that there is no such thing as a unitary absolute Truth - that truth is more like a system of values as in a painting, as Nietzsche said, or a level of tonal vibrations like in a musical composition - in other words, reality itself is more like a work of art than it is like a scientific proof. All I can offer as a writer, thinker, or human being is my own vector, my own fractal shard of wisdom and experience as it has presented itself to me, and do it as rigorously and truthfully as possible. That is all anyone can do.

So as for "the Beast" archetype, i think it is cleverly open for interpretation in the Biblical narrative of Apocalypse, and what currently feels closest to accurate to me is John Michell's reading of it in "The New View of Atlantis," that the Beast represents an amoral solar deity that was pre-Christian yet recognized and incorporated symbolically into early Christian architecture such as the Glastonbury Cathedral, and then cast out along with the movement into linear rationality which has been the story of modernity since the Middle Ages until last week. Just as with the casting out of the feminine side of God from Christianity (and the demonization of wise women for retaining intuitive and psychic powers not to mention knowledge of medicinal and magical plants), the casting out of the amoral solar principle of the Beast had negative repercussions. For Jung, both the feminine aspect of the Godhead and the Luciferic aspect had to be consciously realized and reintegrated by modern man if he wanted to cease projecting his own shadow into the world. That is what I think the Beast might represent.

As for "god" casting out a demon from you, I could have many responses. One would be, how do you know it was "god" that did this - rather than, for instance, the Gnostic demiurge, who has god-like powers in this world, but seeks to keep us ensnared in veils of ignorance? When I watch, for instance, fundamentalist preachers or Christian television shows, it is clear to me that what is operating them is not "god" but the powers of the Archons, who love to run the show if they can compell belief from worshippers.

My own personal take on God is consonant with William Blake's: "God only Acts, & Is, in existing beings and men." I don't think there is any god above or outside of us, but that the universal consciousness in which we all participate is God. We only evolve by taking complete responsibility for our own actions, realizing immanence rather than transcendence.

I like Andrew Cohen's remarks in a recent issue of What is Enlightenment: "the depth of our conscious engagement with the evolutionary process is the very edge of development itself (assuming we're actually pushing the edge). And the leading edge does not preexist."

Or as Christ put it: "I and the Father are one."

[Douglas]

daniel,

I will respond some time later (it might be one or two days later, depending on my schedule, which seems to vary according to what's gone wrong with my truck) in more detail, but for now I just wanted to comment on something you said above:
Or as Christ put it: "I and the Father are one."When Jesus said "I and My Father are one", the word He used signified a "unity" - the same, or a similar, word is used in describing a husband and wife. Upon marrying, a husband and wife become "one", even while retaining their individuality.

[gone]

Well if you’re going to get pedantic about it the concept of “unity” is open to debate. Certainly, the Nicene Creed’s use in this context of the word homoousios, “of one substance” suggests a commonality far outstripping that of husband and wife.

By picking the details apart, you miss the point.

[gone]

Quote of the Day: “Altar Boyz,” a musical comedy on a Christian boy band.

(RNS) “Jesus called me on my cell phone/No roaming charges were incurred/He told me that I should go out in the world/And spread his glorious word.”

-- Lyrics from “Altar Boyz,” an off-Broadway musical about a Christian boy band. The lyrics were quoted in the Washington Times.

[Douglas]

gelfer: Well if you’re going to get pedantic about it the concept of “unity” is open to debate.Not in the sense and terms I described.

gelfer: Certainly, the Nicene Creed’s use in this context of the word homoousios, “of one substance” suggests a commonality far outstripping that of husband and wife.And where in the Bible is the "Nicene Creed"? Nevertheless, "of one substance" bears some similarity to the Bible's description of a husband and wife becoming "one flesh". Even if "of one substance" is more "literal" than this description of the husband and wife, being "of one substance" has no bearing on Jesus' being distinct from the God the Father, any more than two pancakes being made from the same batter means they are one and the same pancake.

gelfer: By picking the details apart, you miss the point.I'm afraid I must disagree with you. I think by failing to discern the details and differences, you miss the intended meaning.

[ July 19, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[gone]

Biblical exegesis is not open to debate? Your kind aren’t worth the typing. Goodbye.

[ July 19, 2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: gelfer ]

[waterthere]

Wow, alright, that's it.

Thanks Daniel. This is the explanation that I've been hoping to prod out.

Finally.

I thought I was going to have to wait for the book to resolve the nagging questions, didn't expect you to out with it here in synthetic cyberland. But, hot damn, you've covered all the bases, and managed to find a way to posit all of us petty little nitpickers under an austere, all-inclusive, uplifting analogy. Great, great. Perfect.

Much food for thought---thankyou.

waterthere

[Rob P]

....

Gelfer!
You are so right on...

Isn't it weird and pathetic?....

Some people like to live in a box with
no windows, and then they are driven to
tell everyone how scenic their view is...
oh, and also it's the only view!!!
and oh the box is so spacious....

go figure...or not...

seeya
R O B

...

[Douglas]

gelfer,

I didn't expect you'd want to confront the truth. Lots of people don't. And, no, I said nothing about "exegesis" in general - just the specific context and terms I was describing. Nice try at a justification for leaving, though.

Next time, however, try addressing the points raised before running off. It gives a better impression.

[craazyman]

"Words are the nodal points of numerous ideas, and are therefore predistined to ambiguity."

Sigmund Freud
The Interpretation of Dreams

[waterthere]

Douglas and Gelfer, et al:

You seem to be missing the major point in Daniel's post, something that I can happily agree with---truth is not a fixed set of ideas, but can be approached from many different directions. Please let's stop bickering about unimportant details and get over our ego pride. We all have limitations in our perception of things, our singular view from a singular window---I'd say that that's inherent in our existence here as flawed humans no matter how wide open to psychic experience we can pry our little heads, no matter how much knowledge we can cram in there.

My position as a Christian is that this is the system of values, the mythology/allegory, the set of spiritual practices, that resonates strongest in me emotionally. I don't expect anyone else to necessarily feel the same way.

Wild Craazyman has a nice point here:

"Words are the nodal points of numerous ideas, and are therefore predestined to ambiguity."

I apologize for not articulating myself as well as I could. My warnings about the dangers of the 'occult' still stand---what I think I meant by them is that, in my opinion at least, the huge volume of esoteric philosophies available to us these days should be scrutinized very carefully before embraced. Much of it is highly seductive but a lot of it seems to be coming from the a fairly narrow place, spiritually. Either the system in question is very young and, therefore has shallow roots (insufficient to nourish anyone all that well) or it's been concocted by a mind of questionable motivations (like Scientology) or a channeled trickster spirit (the Seth books). The problem is that, in the thick of these influences, it's almost impossible to sort through them and glean ideas that are genuinely, deeply useful. I'm not all that capable of this, but I think this is one of Daniel's talents to be able to do this and manage to articulate it for a broad audience.

And Tana:

It's too bad you feel the need to dismiss established religions---starting from nada but our own subjective experience leaves us to be constantly re-inventing the wheel with pretty meager tools. Why would you discard thousands of years of accumulated wisdom?

takecare,

waterthere

[Douglas]

waterthere: You seem to be missing the major point in Daniel's post, something that I can happily agree with---truth is not a fixed set of ideas, but can be approached from many different directions.Is it true that "truth is not a fixed set of ideas, but can be approached from many different directions", or is that just a particular approach from a particular direction? From this direction, it looks to be untrue. How do you know that "truth is not a fixed set of ideas"? Why isn't it, or why shouldn't it be? Which truths fit this description, or do ALL truths? If all truths do, then so would your claim about truth. If only some truths do, how do you decide which ones?

waterthere: Please let's stop bickering about unimportant details and get over our ego pride.As I said to gelfer, I don't consider the issue of what the Bible means by the "oneness" of Jesus and God the Father to be an "unimportant detail", and I am not motivated by any "ego pride". I simply explained my view to gelfer, gelfer took offense, misrepresented (knowingly or unknowingly) my position, and left the building. I replied by pointing out that gelfer's reaction did not surprise me, and what kind of impression his or her reaction gives, and hinted that I'd have appreciated gelfer's making at least an attempt to address the points I raised, rather than just saying I wasn't "worth" his or her spending the time to deal with me.

[ July 20, 2005, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[daniel]

Hi Douglas,

I think there is both wisdom and humility in finding a place from which you can be open to other's experiences, both mundane and mystical, in a nonjudgemental manner. I am not Islamic, but I don't reject the Islamic faith as false. I would see that they are working with an aspect of Divinity, a very different aspect than we in the West are comfortable with.

If we just take a moment to think about reality as closer to art than science (recalling that modern science developed out of the absolute monotheistic perspective of 17th Cent Christianity), then we might also note that there are better and worse art works, and that general consensus can be reached, in many cases, about what is more beautiful and compelling. From such a perspective, discrimination and intuition remain important. There is not an absolute relativism, but neither is there an absolute correct position on any matter, yet there are still better and worse perspectives - or more or less true ones.

[Buzz]

Hey Daniel, post 1366 above, that's some good stuff!

[ July 20, 2005, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Douglas]

daniel,

(Still not much time to spend here, yet.)

If we just take a moment to think about reality as closer to art than science (recalling that modern science developed out of the absolute monotheistic perspective of 17th Cent Christianity), then we might also note that there are better and worse art works, and that general consensus can be reached, in many cases, about what is more beautiful and compelling.Why should reality be considered closer to art than science? Is there an objective reality out there, or do our subjective opinions and feelings determine what is real? If the latter is the case, why aren't I 6'2", 210 pounds, buff, with a gorgeous mane of golden, shoulder-length, hair, with a petite, long-haired blonde intellectual by my side? What gives? smile.gif

[ July 20, 2005, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[waterthere]

Hey Douglas,

As one liberal Christian to a rather more traditional one I thought I might try and explain how I can maintain my faith in light of being able to see the same truths in other religious practices...

But I’m no razorsharp Pinchbeck, so please bear with me...

Please remember that these are ideas that I usually 'feel' rather than think, and that lot of this is fairly intuited or soaked-in from years of forgotten reading/wandering so if it seems like I’m borrowing things from other folks it’s because I’m borrowing things from other folks. If some of this sounds a little cliched, familiar, simplistic, pretentious and too half-educated (to anyone out there), I apologize in advance...

I tend to think of the material and spiritual worlds (i.e.everything) as being constructed of spheres within spheres made up of successive layers of experience/existences. The outside layers consist of base experiences and the inner layers are the higher spiritual existences: from shallow sensory experiences we move into mundane life logistics through into immediate thoughts through into unwitting/unconscious thoughts through into deeper layers of emotion, memories, dreams, etc. It seems that most folks spend their days living in the outer spheres, and more so these days (increasingly), but some folks deemed sensitive or stubborn or crafty, or perhaps simply ‘good’, can access deeper spheres with some work. A successful spiritual life is one that can penetrate close to the center sphere, what I’ll call ‘The Word'.

To me and to you and to a surprising amount of folks (still) that center truth is Jesus Christ. And for good reason---despite huge amounts of controversy about his historical reality he appears to be a purposed manifestation of God, a message from the underlying consciousness that everything and every ‘sphere’ consists of. Jesus Christ is ‘...the way, the truth, and the light...” He’s an emodiment of 'The Word' and I beleive that a harmonized, pure-hearted belief in 'The Word' acts as a doorway to a reconnection with God.

You can relate to this maybe? Probably.

This part is tricky for most orthodox Christians to swallow but it makes perfect sense to me: this sketchy diagram, this underlying hierarchy of truths, can be transposed onto every other successful religion and spiritual practice that humans have come up with. If you remove the cultural differences and the imposed laws necessary to govern a specific cultural mindset, there’s an eerie, unsubtle similarity of essential structure to all highend systems of spirituality. One of my favourite Christian thinkers, Thomas Merton, came to this conclusion later in life, after years of concentrated prayer and contemplation as a Trappist monk. Breaking years and years of monastic isolation he attended a series of meetings with his counterparts in the Asian world and admitted a startling correlation of experiences and conclusions. He managed to break out of his cultural baggage and see the center truth as the same despite markedly different contexts.

It could be that God’s been ‘appearing’ to humans since the very beginning, or more likely yet, it could be that God’s message is inherent in everything and can be accessed by those that pay attention, or are made to pay attention (like yourself). We’ll never know, probably, but ultimately that doesn’t matter as long as we hear the Word.

I’d wager that Jesus Christ was the most important manifestation of God that’s happened in (poorly) recorded history and, certainly, his emotional presence as an archetype is huge and therefore is easily accessed by lots of different folks of different degrees of intelligence and education. The problem these days is that Christ is too caught up in cultural baggage constructed by the orthodox to serve a useful social function during the earlier eras of Christianity, cultural baggage that’s increasingly impossible to relate to (not to mention downright offensive on occasion) because of the changing perceptions of a rapidly changing world. And, to make matters worse the increasing assertion of concerns for activity in the lower spheres, a situation that seems highly suspect if you step back and look at the arc of it all, is making it even more impossible for folks to even consider the possibility of other spheres, let alone actually pulling off the hard work necessary to reach the resonant center.

Another problem with Christianity these days is that the overly simplistic orthodox interpretation of The Word is so old and familiar and regimented that it’s enabled lots of idiots and assholes to consider themselves ‘religious’ and ‘divinely enlightened’ (or whatever) when they aren’t at all. They’re just mimicking dead practices and stale thoughts, confusing second level spheres (emotions, dreams) for the higher spheres. And what’s more, it’s these nominal Christians who seem to represent Christ to most of the world, making it even more difficult for folks to see any dignity or truth in it, making it increasingly ineffective as a structure within which to reach higher spheres of meaning and experience.

In many ways you’re incredibly lucky to have been singled out like you have been, to have had such a powerful and ‘supernatural’ experience with which to seal your heart to Christ as the center truth. And it’s also quite forgiveable that you would be so firm in your learned perception of things as long as you show compassion and understanding for folks who can’t access the center truth in the same manner as you. And remember: even well-meaning proselytizing is hard to pull off these days without setting off alarm bells and defensiveness in people so one is probably better off letting other folks approach you if they're interested in talking about your beliefs.

Anyway, I hope you can appreciate some of this and find it useful somehow. At this point I can't tell if I've embarrassed myself (yet again) in trying to write this stuff down, but that doesn't really matter. In a way I should probably thank you for triggering the urge to try and explain this to myself as much as you. Having to defend and explain myself hereabouts is a pleasant challenge.

Takecare,

waterthere

[Humming]

"Why should reality be considered closer to art than science? Is there an objective reality out there, or do our subjective opinions and feelings determine what is real? If the latter is the case, why aren't I 6'2", 210 pounds, buff, with a gorgeous mane of golden, shoulder-length, hair, with a petite, long-haired blonde intellectual by my side? What gives?"

If that's truly the extent of your desire, the attainment is quite simple: just enter a dream consciously and manifest that reality. It's as easy as believing... although the specifics may not turn out exactly the way you'd like. Seriously, try it. Just focus and utilize all of your will to create that image, and it will manifest. But once you've actualized that kind of power within yourself and played around with it some you may find that your priorities and interests will shift....

As for the dualism of an "objective" and "subjective" reality, that split assumes that there is a singular consciousness which is somehow seperate from the whole, and a whole that does not encompass the singular.

To realize reality as art is to understand your own subjective experience as an expression of the whole. This is what Daniel was describing earlier in terms of integrating the mythical resonances within the structure of the events of your own life.

In the case of Christians, this integration often seems to unconsciously (or consciously) give them a sense of vast entitlement and superiority, assured of the fact that their "savior" died for the sins of all the rest of us poor deluded souls, that he died for the only truth, "God" and therefore it is their duty to indoctrinate the rest of the world with this particular view.

To bind yourself to an "objective" truth is to straight-jacket yourself into one set of perceptions about the world. This is the danger of fundamentalism, which has already been pointed out here.

In this mindset of division, where absolute truth is a function of the ego's desire for control, the desire to be proven correct and be superior over others, wars and hatred and domination are justified. Hence, our modern plight: fundamentalists versus fundamentalists, killing each other for some delusional idea of divine favor.

If Christianity is what you find yourself drawn to spiritually and it satiates the depths of your curiosity and awareness, that's wonderful.

But to claim one set of beliefs as "objective truth" denies the validity of any other perspective, and denies yourself your own ability to explore the intricacies of perspective and reality, and that is a travesty.

[ July 20, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[Lowlight]

objective material world?

Have we not yet finished with this mistake?

The world is not physical.

The world is language.

Language is law.

Laws can be broken.

[willoweyes]

I thank everyone who has posted here for enlivening my tired summer mind!

Daniel, brilliant AND good-hearted. Thank you espcially.

Lowlight, a question: "The World is language-Language is Law-Laws can be broken." Do you equate "language" with human language, or does your coception go beyond the human? Do you feel Nature obeys our language?

[Lowlight]

I would say we are in the process of learning nature's language.

We speak a broken version of the most real language.

Will we ever get there? Or should that be, should we ever really get here?

[sidecross]

McKenna would often say we live with in the limits of our language.

It is not comforting to think we still talk of ‘sunrise & sunset’ centuries after we have learned that it is the earth that rotates, and that the sun does neither rise nor set.

[waterthere]

In the case of Christians, this integration often seems to unconsciously (or consciously) give them a sense of vast entitlement and superiority, assured of the fact that their “savior” died for the sins of all the rest of us poor deluded souls, that he died for the only truth, “God” and therefore it is their duty to indoctrinate the rest of the world with this particular view.

That’s unfortunate, yeah. But it’s part of their parcel and we shouldn’t give them a hard time about it. It’s not their fault that they need to live in a literalist’s world. Or maybe it is. Who knows. Sometimes I wonder if the emphasis on proselytizing it’s an affectation from the orthodox but I think it’s just that people who undergo happy spiritual transformations simply want to share the joy.

I can’t even begin to defend the actions of the fundamentalists, however, and find this whole business incredibly discouraging. Deeply discouraging. The only hope I can find in it is that the violence is serving some sort of evolutionary or spiritual purpose. Is it the cauterizing of a wounds or 'The End Times'?

It's probably the end times, yes?

Oh well,

waterthere

[waterthere]

I would say we are in the process of learning nature's language.

That's great!

Nicely reassuring...

waterthere

[Humming]

waterthere, "That’s unfortunate, yeah. But it’s part of their parcel and we shouldn’t give them a hard time about it. It’s not their fault that they need to live in a literalist’s world. Or maybe it is. Who knows. Sometimes I wonder if the emphasis on proselytizing it’s an affectation from the orthodox but I think it’s just that people who undergo happy spiritual transformations simply want to share the joy."

I totally agree. Some of the Christians I have known have been the kindest and most generous people I've met. However, they are often bound by their social situations, locked into traditions of belief because their parents indoctrinated them into those beliefs and they were tacitly forced to accept them.

When I first took mushrooms I was overwhelmed with that feeling that I should spread the joy and truth I had found in the experience, for the good of humanity. In fact, I still feel this way today. But I am not preaching a dogma, it's morelike an experiential mysticism. People take mushrooms and it is up to them to decipher and integrate that experience for themselves: no one can impose a doctrine based on individual experience.

As for the idea of nature's language, McKenna's favorite idiom about reality was that "The world is made of language," and I think that he was quite correct in this: our conceptual apparatus is what enables us to experience reality.

People who have a working vocabulary of 3 dozen words will probably not have the depth of experience of a poet or someone who engages the act of expression in their daily lives. Rather, they will probably be doomed to relating their experiences through shared cultural forms such as television shows, or inane news bytes.

In "The Archaic Revival" McKenna writes about this, how emotions cannot be expressed and shared (and, incidentally, may not be fully experienced) if we do not have the vocabulary for it. On psychedelics one of my friends usually receives that message from the channelled entitites, "Your language is pitifully weak, you must evolve a greater capability for expression."

[Eagle Wing]

Hi Douglas, Daniel, & everyone,
how exciting to come back to this board after a week and find this discussion. Now to toss in my two cents.
actually there's a lot i'd like to contribute to this, but first i need to go home and pull out my bible to get some actual quotes about this so-called "beast" and also this old record i have of the great musician Sun Ra talking about language and the bible. it's amazing, i'll share some of it with you in a subsequent post.
but for now...
it just occurred to me that there is a connection between Douglas' 13-year-old vision at the pool table, and Daniel's response. Daniel brought up the very important distinction between the philosophies of God's "transcendence" or "immanence". Now, we have all kinds of examples around us today of people acting from the belief in God's transcendence, such as suicide bombings and all kinds of varieties of surrendering to "faith", or as it often manifests, the persuasion of various self-appointed preachers. The ideals of Christ are so often used today within a presumption of transcendence. And yet, to me the message of Christ has always been about immanence. Christ is within us: Christ is a principle of human existence.
Douglas, in describing your vision to us you mentioned how you perceived the "spiritual hierarchy" that was set up "in opposition" to Christ. I can really relate to your perception. Several times during my experiences with acid i clearly saw every person and interaction as existing within a distinct network of spiritual hierarchical relationships. I mean, sure you can see this all the time when you're not tripping... but let me tell you, during these trips i was viscerally, to my very core, illuminated and shaken by the overwhelming "truth" of these insights. This really agitated the Christ element in me because there was a perception of how the hierarchy established the "value" of things, when the Christ principle asserts the inversion or upending of value systems... you know, "the rich shall be made poor" and the "low shall be made high" and all that.
Now, was Christ acknowledging the hierarchy as an ultimate reality? You know what i mean? In the philosophy of transcendence, where we "die and go to heaven in Jesus' name," do we get to a place where the hierarchy has simply been replaced by a "more true" hierarchy that is regulated by "moral fiber"? Does amoral or "evil" success in this material world equate to being the downtrodden and oppressed soul of the afterlife? I think these questions are all the results of a preconception that Christ is about replacing one hierarchy with another in some kind of transcendent state. But we can look at it from another angle.
Douglas, I like the confrontation you established in your vision: Christ against the hierarchy. That is, Christ is the principle that unites and bonds together the different levels of the hierarchy so that it flows like water, ultimately the impermanence of hierarchical structures within the context of life and death. he refused to be bound by the hierarchies and class distinctions of his day. Christ is a symbol of transformation and resurrection, his birthplace even being right in the geographic center of the Sumero-Egyptian cultural transmission, from Inanna to Osiris to Christ. Although he introduced the revolutionary notions of compassion, sympathy and inclusion of women and diseased people and such, in most other respects, Christ does not transcend the older death-and-rebirth religions that informed his world. Christ is contained within, and himself contains, the Sumerian and Egyptian religions that are so often called "occult" (Egyptian religion being mostly about performing magic and shapeshifting through words of power). Those who believe in the transcendent reality of an objective truth (that is, the hierarchical nature of consciousness imposed upon us by an objective real "true lord" of "really really true") will often object to the occult magic of the old natural religions by saying that they are a web of lies, etc... designed to keep people from the true truth. But Christ himself made his connection to the natural magicians of Egypt by saying things like "I am the Light" and "I am the Bread of Life" which are both references to the transformative initiation ritual of the Pyramid (Christ was also said to have been raised in Egypt as a child). Of course, there was also the controversial statement (that led to the religious authorities calling for his execution) that "the Father and I are one" that clearly establishes the IMMANENCE of the Creator God. This was such a radical break from the religion of the time that stressed obeying the transcendant laws of God and their interpretation by the priest class.
Today, the idea of Christ's immanence is an important and radical step away from the religious leaders who would have us take their promised road of salvation. It says that the resurrection is here and now. Don't look to the "end of days" or whatever for your salvation; as Bob Marley said, "we know when we understand that mighty God is a Living Man." The greatest Christian mystics such as Francis of Assisi, Hildegard of Bingen, Meister Eckhardt, Mechtilde of Magdeburg, and Theresa of Avila, all embraced the immanence of Christ within themselves, not as this persona who will "come again" to save us. To me, the plea of Christians to be "saved by" Christ is another manifestation of that hierarchy that is dissolved by the waters of immanence (Immanu-el).
An important distinction is the way that our consciousness operates in the different philosophies.
Those who believe in transcendence, surrender.
Those who believe in immanence, plunge in.
Transcendence abdicates responsibility, hands it over to someone else. Immanence assumes responsibility.
We are here -- i think we have chosen, in some sense, to be here -- like it or not, Douglas, you didn't choose to be an NBA star with a harem of chicks -- so do you think we should take responsibility for our choices?
As for me, while i consider it very possible that the Other will actually teach us of our immanent nature by devouring/destroying ourselves, i'm fairly convinced that the Self/Other conundrum can be resolved by plunging in.
Plunging in means accepting the Other within the Self, and releasing the Self within the Other. This means on every level -- family, clan, culture, planet. We are it. It is in our hands.

[Eagle Wing]

"why should reality be considered more like art than science?"

-my answer is that science itself is more like an art than reality. Science does not absolutely prove any kind of objective reality. It just demonstrates how certain contexts lead to repetitive results.

"objectivity" is a much more complex idea than you seem to giving it credit for, Douglas.

The dynamic between Self and Other is the great mystery of Awareness --it is the motivational engine of Experience (we have to establish contexts in order to explore this question of Self and Other).

I don't completely agree with Humming that you can just visualize yourself into a different context at this point: the interactive dynamic between Self and Other is too powerful for one or the other to ever be completely dominant. I think we can talk about objectivity within the idea of actions, and results... certain choices or actions lead to certain results... just like election day, once you make some choices, the opportunity to opt out of that choice might not come again for a while (if ever). This principle could be the underlying structure of what we call "objectivity"; that is, consequences.

"Judgment", on the other hand, i see as a completely subjective phenomenon... one that is, nevertheless, inspired by the need to have a relationship with consequences. It is one perspective on the spectrum of Self and Other to occupy. You can judge either end of the spectrum, of course.

[Douglas]

If that's truly the extent of your desire,....No, I was just joking, using a stereotypical personal (typically portrayed in the media) "dream" as an example. (Though I suppose it would be nice if I was 6'2", with a gorgeous, shoulder-length golden mane, and having a petite, long-haired lady by my side. It's just that I'm not, and I don't, and that's fine, really.)

[ July 22, 2005, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[Douglas]

Eagle Wing,

My experience indicated in no uncertain terms that the "heirarchy" was as real as any human heirarchy. (Whether or not one accepts my experience as genuine, or valid, or accurate, is a different matter.)

Also, God Himself has spoken to me on several occasions (not verbally, but more as a clear "verbal" communication directed to my mind, rather than through the auditory channel). I can distinguish between the three Persons of the Trinity - I recognize when it is either God the Father, or God the Son (Jesus), or the Holy Spirit speaking to me. Of course, most of these "communications" have been two sentences or less (once, it consisted simply of "It is woven into the fabric of time"; another time, it was merely "You did not love them"), and the total is (without going back and specifically counting them up) only around 12 different instances. Still....

Jesus was and is an actual Person, and is more aware than any of us - He is also an actual human being, having been born of a woman. He is not just some "cosmic principle" (the "Christ consciousness", etc.) - He was, is, and always will be God, and none of us ever will be. The Bible testifies that He so loved us, even while we were in our sins, that He gave His life in our place, so that, if we would accept His sacrifice in our stead, we could have eternal life. It's all very easy to understand, and very easy to access - but those "lying spirits" I have referred to have hate in their hearts for God, for Jesus, and for those God and Jesus love, and so they lie to people, seeking to separate them from life. Again I ask you to consider that liars and murderers in this world (of humans) might have their counterparts in the "spirit" world.

[ July 22, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Douglas ]

[Lowlight]

liars in the other world...

sounds a lot like jesus to me. You know, the whole 'imminent second coming' thing, that never came.

There is very little known about the historical jesus. In the original languages of the bible nowhere does jesus actualy claim to be the son of God. he only sometimes alludes to being the son of man, and even then he sends out mixed messages about that.

then theres the whole saint paul thing...you know, the guy who was hated by the orginal followers of jesus and james because he twisted all they had said...

if you want to concentrate on 'the good' and compassion etc thats fine, and probably the best way forward for humanity. but theres no need to clog it up with the names and dogmas surrounding a guy whos been dead for 2000 odd years.

what lies behind Jesus (or jebus as homer would say) is mystery. That is what we need to concentrate on.

[waterthere]

Eagle Wing,

It's nice to have you back hereabouts---beautiful posts.

I have some questions though...

Why should we emphasize immanence over transcendence? It seems to me that the Christ manifestation clearly describes both. 'His' energy and message is immanent and alive and pervasive but offers an opportunity for transcendence. And this doesn't necessarily mean that we don't have a responsibility to this plane, either...

And Douglas still has a point in asserting that no one really knows the motivation of most spiritual entities, and therefore the motivation of the ideas that they stir-up. No one here seems to have answered that question...

And speaking of 'Angels and Demons at Play', and I realize this is off topic a bit, but I'm excited that you brought up Sun Ra---he's been a huge hero of mine for awhile now. An amazing man. His mix of established and personal myth is totally fascinating but I've always found it all rather confusing, and have just figured that he was an evasive dude and wanted to stir up a broad mystery in which to place his musical experiments. Was his stance more refined than that? He talked about ancient Egypt to no end---how does his message and methods correlate with their religious practices? Maybe he deserves a new thread in 'Cultural Production'...?

Incidentally, I've started in on reading some Steiner, on your recommendation, and I'm increasingly startled and excited by how his ideas seem to provide a clear bridge between my childhood programming (Christianity) and the personal experiences I've had that seemed contradict the programming. A revelation...

Thank you for that,

waterthere

[craazyman]

There is very little known about the historical jesus. In the original languages of the bible nowhere does jesus actualy claim to be the son of God. he only sometimes alludes to being the son of man, and even then he sends out mixed messages about that.

then theres the whole saint paul thing...you know, the guy who was hated by the orginal followers of jesus and james because he twisted all they had said...
[/QB]Amen. Several years back I went on the typical historical Jesus quest, read Schweitzer, Renan, and some others that I can't now recall. Jesus was about consigned completely to myth by scholars by the late 18th century and erased from reality. But then recently there's been several architectural finds in the Holy Land that are quite specifically referenced in the Gospels, and the bizarre and seemingly unresolved Shroud of Turin mystery persists. It seems like the real historical Jesus is making a comeback. Regardless, there's no doubt that we have no clue what Jesus actually said, and that the translations from the Aramaic to the Greek to the Latin to the English, by folks with religious agendas to perpetrate, leave the current (or even King James) bible a highly unreliable account of history.

I like what the poet Keats reportedly said, in a letter, about Jesus and I paraphrase from memory "despite all that's been said and done in his name, the essential genius of the man still shines through."

My brother got active in his church a number of years ago, something of a queasy thing for our liberal humanist parents. I don't see my brother that often and never talk about anything profound with him and I haven't set foot in a church in 10 years. Somehow, briefly, we were talking about church and Jesus. "Do you think Jesus was the son of God?" he asked me. "I think we all are," I said, "and I think that's what Jesus was trying to say." My brother was silent for a second, and then said "Huh." Then we went back to talking about nothing at all, like usual. [It was a thoughtful Huh, not a dumb one. He's a good man and his church has done some terrific work in their community, true charity and outreach. I probably could have been clearer in what I said.]

[ July 23, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: craazyman ]

[Rob P]

;)

get ready for the thump!

seeya

r o b

[Agent Smith]

lairs on the other side, huh?

...it's a question of 'who do you trust'... isreal regardie, i think, said something to the effect that one of the basic teachings of the golden dawn, was that once you've been contacted by 'the great white brotherhood', the 'space angels', the 'tibetean lama superfriends' or whoever, it's a sign that your practice has gone horribly wrong, and that now you have an oppertunity to correct it... as in ignore them, and they'll go away (i think this is also in legit tibetean buddhism...)

shamanism's a different story, but again discerning the source takes some practice, and experience.... just because my spirit badger told me to stick a fork in a light socket, and lick it, does that mean i gotta?

...and jesus' backers ain't nuthin' nice... or at least, them what's hijacked his name.

we've talked about the Archons before... manichean twaddle.

[Eagle Wing]

waterthere-

yes i agree with you that the jesus thing implies both transcendence and immanence. i feel like many people are looking at the Trinity as simply transcendant, however, and ignoring the deeper meaning of the mystery that underlies Self, Other, and the concept of Trinity or "Thirdness" in general. I'm actually pretty frustrated with this discussion right now because i addressed my posts to Douglas but i don't think he has been dealing with the implications of what i wrote.

Great to hear that you dig Sun Ra too... i believe he was a very serious man and not just out to make money, or a typical functioning schizophrenic, as many have claimed. I have an amazing recording of Sun Ra speaking about the bible, language, and belief. When i get a couple hours free i'll post a transcription of some of it under cultural production and we can continue this conversation there. otherwise... i'm done with this thread.

[Eagle Wing]

Douglas --
you wrote,
"My experience indicated in no uncertain terms that the "heirarchy" was as real as any human heirarchy. (Whether or not one accepts my experience as genuine, or valid, or accurate, is a different matter.)"
i absolutely accept your experience as valid. And, as i was attempting to relate through my own experiences, i also have had a vision into the reality of the spiritual hierarchy. You better believe it's real.

you continue,
"Also, God Himself has spoken to me on several occasions (not verbally, but more as a clear "verbal" communication directed to my mind, rather than through the auditory channel)."
ok, here you're beginning to tread on dangerous ground, Doug! How can YOU be any more sure that God is talking to you than, say, Charlie Manson? I'm sorry to use such an extreme example, but hey, that's what he said. Somebody once said, "don't tell me what God can do..."
The creator, the maker, begetter, modeler of everything, the great mystery of all mysteries, the unity that cannot be spoken...
the voice that was in your head?
In my last post i took some time to speak about the great mystery of Awareness -- that is, the dynamic between Self and Other. Many many people have grappled with this mystery, Doug. Beware of taking ANY voice to be the ultimate voice of "authority". And yet, you have great conviction that this was the voice of the Creator "Himself"...
while i don't want to deconstruct this too much because i consider it a genuine experience, i do urge you to try and understand to what extent this voice that you heard actually has roots in your Experience...
You see, we hear voices all the time. This board is full of people who hear ridiculous voices. And a bunch of them have also said that the voices are God. WHAT IS GOD?
That's why i'm trying (apparantly in vain) to frame this kind of discussion a little differently, in a way that can shed more light on the phenomenon of voices and channeling in general.
If we think of the essential dynamic of Self and Other -- that is, where is the boundary between them? How do we relate the two in our Awareness? The different kinds of approaches to spiritual Other, i have described as immanence and transcendence. We also have to reckon with the phenomena of Experience. Experiences generate the feedback loop that informs our awareness. Through our experiences, we develop context for deeper exploration of the Self/Other mystery. Is this not why Tantra is a path of spiritual knowledge? Check out the experiences of Teresa of Avila or Mechtilde of Magdeburg. I think reading their works would be an amazing experience for you, Douglas. These women were VERY SERIOUS about communing with the Trinity. A deep part of their realizations came through exploration of exactly what elements of their Experience were producing the voices in their head....
yes, there is a HUGE difference between the voice of "authority", and the formation of WORDS, and the reality of the immanence of Creation and the Creator...

you wrote,
"I can distinguish between the three Persons of the Trinity - I recognize when it is either God the Father, or God the Son (Jesus), or the Holy Spirit speaking to me. Of course, most of these "communications" have been two sentences or less (once, it consisted simply of "It is woven into the fabric of time"; another time, it was merely "You did not love them")..."
I have no doubt that the voices you heard were clearly voicing your truth, your true relation of Self and Other. I can see that the essentially, deeply true nature of these voices was very moving to you, very convincing, very personal.

"Jesus was and is an actual Person, and is more aware than any of us - He is also an actual human being, having been born of a woman. He is not just some "cosmic principle" (the "Christ consciousness", etc.) - He was, is, and always will be God, and none of us ever will be. The Bible testifies that He so loved us, even while we were in our sins, that He gave His life in our place, so that, if we would accept His sacrifice in our stead, we could have eternal life."
actually, i'm not so sure that the bible testifies that, but Paul certainly did.... oh right, all of Paul's letters are the bible too... hmmm, i wonder who decided to include that but not the other stuff?...

" It's all very easy to understand, and very easy to access - but those "lying spirits" I have referred to have hate in their hearts for God, for Jesus, and for those God and Jesus love, and so they lie to people, seeking to separate them from life. Again I ask you to consider that liars and murderers in this world (of humans) might have their counterparts in the "spirit" world."
i agree with you. To bring back dear old Chuck Manson -- the guy was absolutely convinced that he was Christ... and also Antichrist. Yowza! what a crazy dude. The victim of "spiritual liars and murderers?" i would say so. Maybe one of the best living examples.
Douglas, I ask you to consider that there are indeed spiritual forces out there... but their intentions are not so simple as "with us or against us" when it comes to christianity. I say, if you're a judgmental kind of guy, then form your judgments based on the actual consequences of what gets said and done.
"Seeking to separate them from life"? There's quite an argument and mountains of evidence that Paul and his followers, the "Christians", perpetrated this very act against humanity.

[ July 23, 2005, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Wing ]

[daniel]

douglas wrote: "Jesus was and is an actual Person, and is more aware than any of us - He is also an actual human being, having been born of a woman. He is not just some "cosmic principle" (the "Christ consciousness", etc.)"

Rudolf Steiner makes a distinction between Jesus, the historical individual, and Christ, the cosmic conscious and archetype that entered into him during his last three years. Steiner's Christological perspective is a fascinating one, very elaborate, based on his readings of the Akashic Record. He proposes that the lack of historical evidence is somehow an intentional aspect of the event, forcing the individual to draw his own conclusions. He also argues that the four gospels represent four different wisdom traditions and perspectives, and that each is accurate when viewed from the proper perspective. Apparently, he also foresaw the recovery of the Gnostic Gospels, which happened a few decades after his death.

Steiner also noted that Christ came at the necessary point where human ego consciousness had become enmeshed in materialist thought - any later, and it would have been too late. Christ's teachings were designed to provide the way out of materialism. According to Steiner, in earlier times, humans did not have a strict awareness of themselves as individuals. When the Bible talks about the various patriarchs living hundreds and hundreds of years, what it really means is that the descendants did not differentiate themselves from the original forefather - the children of Abraham still identified themselves as connected with him. Part of Christ's mission was to draw humanity into fully separate individuality - hence he says, "You must leave your father and mother to follow me. "

I also like some of the info that came through Edgar Cayce's transmissions about the Essene community that was aware the savior was going to be born into their community, and had actually prepared several young women to be possible receivers for the earth-shaking event.

I don't have any way of knowing if these ideas are accurate, but I find that thinking about them stretches my understanding in interesting ways.

douglas and waterthere, did you see the piece i wrote about Passion of the Christ? I can repost it if you like.

- He was, is, and always will be God, and none of us ever will be. The Bible testifies that He so loved us, even while we were in our sins, that He gave His life in our place, so that, if we would accept His sacrifice in our stead, we could have eternal life. It's all very easy to understand, and very easy to access - but those "lying spirits" I have referred to have hate in their hearts for God, for Jesus, and for those God and Jesus love, and so they lie to people, seeking to separate them from life. Again I ask you to consider that liars and murderers in this world (of humans) might have their counterparts in the "spirit" world.

[daniel]

oops - at the end of my last post i reposted a chunk of douglas's comments, which I had some significant problems with.

Douglas wrote: "He was, is, and always will be God, and none of us ever will be."

I just don't see this, and consider the truth to be the opposite. Doesn't he talk about his followers being able to do all that he could do and much more? Doesn't he specifically say we are all "of the father"?

douglas writes: "The Bible testifies that He so loved us, even while we were in our sins, that He gave His life in our place, so that, if we would accept His sacrifice in our stead, we could have eternal life."

I don't think accepting his sacrifice is the ultimate point of Christ's mission, and I do not think that in itself will bring us "eternal life." I think Christ is showing us a path to follow, not simply trying to enforce some belief. He is showing us that the right path involves service and sacrifice for the benefit of all humanity. I also believe that is why the mission of Christ is neglected by wealthy New Agers, who find yoga, raw food, and self-satisfied chanting about exotic Hindu gods to be much easier. In the same way, I do not think passive belief or church-going counts for much.

"It's all very easy to understand, and very easy to access - but those "lying spirits" I have referred to have hate in their hearts for God, for Jesus, and for those God and Jesus love, and so they lie to people, seeking to separate them from life."

Once again, I find this language to be opposed to my perspective as it reifies all sorts of dualistic conceptions, and simplifies a complex situation. As Buddhism notes, there are ultimately no real entities - every entity only possesses relative reality, including ourselves. Therefore I would see evil "spirits" as relatively real but also as dissociated aspects or projections of our own psyche. I do not put "God" away somewhere in a transcendent domain, but agree with Blake that "God only acts & is in existing beings and men."

The idea that there are those that Jesus "loves" suggests that there are also those he doesn't love, which returns us to that primitive warlord mentality of old-time religion, dividing and fomenting discord and hate. Douglas, perhaps you should study the Buddhist conception of boddhichita, and develop universal compassion, as well as an awareness of the essential unity of all beings. From my reading of the gospel texts, that was Christ's position as well.

One more thing: One element of the Gospel narratives that, for me, speaks deeply in their favor as historical truth, is the parables that Jesus spoke. The parables are like the stories that Walter Benjamin discussed, seeds of grain that can remain fertile for thousands of years, waiting to find the proper "Ears to hear." It is very obvious in the Gospel of Thomas especially that almost none of the followers has the slightest clue what he is talking about half the time - but when we utilize our present-day understanding of quantum physics (the domain of space-timelessness, etc), the meaning can become perfectly clear. It seems to me that these parables especially were meant for our time.

[waterthere]

Thanks Daniel,

It's nice to see that you're busy thinking about these things. I can actually/heartily agree with most of your ideas, although, in the end it's probably more accurate to admit that no one really knows the answers to these huge questions and to try and keep our speculations checked by an amount of humility. Not that you're not being humble about things (in fact you seem to be less inclined to arrogance than you may have been in the past, which is great to see and very inspiring), but, well, you know what I mean...

I do have some questions, though, if you have the time and inclination to humour me.

Steiner's Christological perspective is a fascinating one, very elaborate, based on his readings of the Akashic Record.

I've been researching Steiner myself in the last few days and I'm quite enjoying the ride---he's a fascinating thinker. A lot of what he said about these issues resonates pretty strongly for me and doesn't necessarily undermine anything in the orthodox Christian stance that I haven't had a problem with myself for years and years. I suppose I'll have to go and read up on this myself in the end, but what were Steiner's methods of accessing the Akashic Record? Is the Akashic Record what Jung was trying to get at with his theories regarding the 'Collective Unconscious' or is it something more specific than that? How can we be assured that his readings aren't based on the activities of psychic/spiritual tricksters (external or otherwise)? I suppose it's a matter of another leap of faith, yes?

He proposes that the lack of historical evidence is somehow an intentional aspect of the event, forcing the individual to draw his own conclusions.

I like that---there's something to that, something very important/integral to The Message that hinges on the blindspot of Free Will.

Apparently, he also foresaw the recovery of the Gnostic Gospels, which happened a few decades after his death.

Wow---I'd be interested to find out exactly what he foresaw...is this something he wrote about and recorded? If so, where is it recorded?

Christ's teachings were designed to provide the way out of materialism.

Yes, yes. And how ironic that the majority of Christians these days are a major proponent of materialism, huh? It's amazing how deeply The Message has been buried and distorted even by folks who claim to support it. Hypocrisy and thoughtlessness is rampant in the various Churches.

According to Steiner, in earlier times, humans did not have a strict awareness of themselves as individuals. When the Bible talks about the various patriarchs living hundreds and hundreds of years, what it really means is that the descendants did not differentiate themselves from the original forefather - the children of Abraham still identified themselves as connected with him. Part of Christ's mission was to draw humanity into fully separate individuality - hence he says, "You must leave your father and mother to follow me. "

That's great, a fine explanation. This is a blindspot for most Christians, I think---I've heard it explained by the idea that the perception of the passage of time was just quite different then, which would fit well with the idea that the more ancient humans walked the line between the Unconscious and the material world without the sharp division that we're living under, but who knows.

douglas and waterthere, did you see the piece i wrote about Passion of the Christ? I can repost it if you like.

No, I haven't seen it, and, sure, please, repost it if you have the time...**

Douglas wrote: "He was, is, and always will be God, and none of us ever will be."

I just don't see this, and consider the truth to be the opposite. Doesn't he talk about his followers being able to do all that he could do and much more? Doesn't he specifically say we are all "of the father"?

This is where I start to diverge from agreeing with you. Or, rather, I'm inclined to think that you're probably both correct in a sense. Infinitely minute particles can behave in seemingly contradictory patterns, yes? I think of this issue as acting in similar ways---we're part of God and contain the immanent Message in ourselves and can see it in everything else, in the natural world that is, with the right state of mind (of course), but I also think that this truth needs to be delicately handled in that it can feed an arrogance or a lack of humility in thinking that we are God or that we can attain godliness. This seems to be the sentiment and seduction of a lot of esoteric thinking and the danger inherent in using 'magical' practices in seeking answers---it has a faustian tendency to reinforce the ego and boost the perception of our own power, which, I suspect, aids in separating us from a genuine understanding of God's nature and immanence. Humility is key, yes?

douglas writes: "The Bible testifies that He so loved us, even while we were in our sins, that He gave His life in our place, so that, if we would accept His sacrifice in our stead, we could have eternal life."

I don't think accepting his sacrifice is the ultimate point of Christ's mission, and I do not think that in itself will bring us "eternal life." I think Christ is showing us a path to follow, not simply trying to enforce some belief. He is showing us that the right path involves service and sacrifice for the benefit of all humanity. I also believe that is why the mission of Christ is neglected by wealthy New Agers, who find yoga, raw food, and self-satisfied chanting about exotic Hindu gods to be much easier. In the same way, I do not think passive belief or church-going counts for much.

Great, great. I concur. This is the essential misunderstanding that most Christians are guilty of. The various Churches have emphasized their projected systems of ethics and directed attention away from the essence of Christ's intent.

As Buddhism notes, there are ultimately no real entities - every entity only possesses relative reality, including ourselves. Therefore I would see evil "spirits" as relatively real but also as dissociated aspects or projections of our own psyche.

I can agree with this as well, it makes a lot of sense really, but I can help but wonder if, even if these elements are aspects of ourselves, they still aren't rather dangerous and worthy of careful distrust. How would this explain your Quetzalcoatl transmission, incidentally? Is Quetzalcoatl an aspect of your own psyche? Does the archetype serve the purpose of isolating an aspect of yourself that's demanding focused attention? What's the purpose behind the demand for attention? Is it 'your' purpose or is it a collective purpose?

Douglas, perhaps you should study the Buddhist conception of boddhichita, and develop universal compassion, as well as an awareness of the essential unity of all beings. From my reading of the gospel texts, that was Christ's position as well.

I concur---nicely said.

The parables are like the stories that Walter Benjamin discussed, seeds of grain that can remain fertile for thousands of years, waiting to find the proper "Ears to hear." It is very obvious in the Gospel of Thomas especially that almost none of the followers has the slightest clue what he is talking about half the time - but when we utilize our present-day understanding of quantum physics (the domain of space-timelessness, etc), the meaning can become perfectly clear. It seems to me that these parables especially were meant for our time.

I concur heartily---very, very nicely said. Beautiful.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, Daniel. Even if I don't entirely agree with them I always enjoy your ideas and I'm always impressed by your skill of clarifying huge and murky issues. Hopefully my questions and comments here aren't completely redundant and self-serving...

takecare,

waterthere

[daniel]

hi waterthere,

thanks for the questions... i can't answer everything now, but will address a few immediate points.

About Steiner and the Akashic Record, I have thought about this a lot. He clearly had access to a particular form of visionary cognition that is perhaps similar to what other people access as closed-eye imagery during ayahuasca or lsd trips. He seems to have learned a lot of control of this visionary capacity - just as indigenous shamans learn, over time, to control where they go while in medicine-induced trances. (I was working with ayahuasca during a ceremony with a Shuar shaman, and the flickering images came super-fast. I couldn't slow them down. I asked the shaman, and he said that you learnt to slow them down and enter into any scene you saw, but it took time to master this.) It may be - who knows - that this visual information is connected to some crystalline DNA transfer as Narby suggests in The Cosmic Serpent.

If you read Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom, his first book and one of his most important, he sets out the philosophical underpinnings of his entire work and method. He believes that thinking is the art of reconciling percepts and concepts - and that all true philosophers have been artists in the realm of concepts. He is not claiming some absolute validity for his own philosophy (although later on it often sounds as though he does). With any material he presents from the Akashic Record, all I can do is mull over it and consider it from my own perspective and the evidence - ordinary and supersensible - available to me. Often even ideas of his that seemed very bizarre to me at first begin to seem like they have some deep resonance and relevance after some time has passed.

For many of the questions you raise, I would recommend reading Carl Jung's "Answer to Job" and Edinger's great exegesis of it, "Transformation of the God-Image." I definitely consider Jung's Answer to Job to be one of the most important and essential texts I have read, in terms of understanding the meaning of Christianity in our contemporary context. He sees the incarnation - the descent of God into the human reality - as a continual process, with Christ one stage in this archetypal narrative, and the Apocalypse representing the next phase of the incarnation of the God-image into the collective body of humanity. (Edinger, following Jung, believes we are currently in the period of Biblical Apocalypse (lit. "revealing" or "uncovering"), as he discusses in his excellent book "Archetypes of the Apocalypse.")

Here are some applicable quotes from Edinger's "Archetypes of the Apocalypse":

174 The "coming of the Self" is imminent; and the process of collective "individuation" is living itself out in human history. One way or another, the world is going to be made a single whole entity. But it will be unified either in mutual mass destruction or by means of mutual human consciousness. If a sufficient number of individuals can have the experience of the coming of the Self as an individual, inner experience, we may just possibly be spared the worst features of its external manifestation. …
When the Self comes, it necessarily brings the "opposites," since they are its essential content. As long as the Self is unconscious, however, these opposites lie side by side peacefully… because there is no consciousness of their distinction or separateness.

176 Christ was the first attempt of the God-image to incarnate and transform itself. Now, the second time around, humanity as a whole and not just one person is going to be the subject of that process. God is going to incarnate in humanity as a whole and in that incarnated form offer himself as a self-sacrifice to bring about his own transformation—just as he did with the individual Christ.

[daniel]

waterthere wonders "if, even if these elements are aspects of ourselves, they still aren't rather dangerous and worthy of careful distrust."

Certainly careful distrust is a good way to go. However, I would just note that the average person in our society is also being operated by foriegn "elements" that have programmed his belief system and behavior without him having any understanding of this. Materialism, in Steiner's system, is the expression of Ahrimanic forces who are interested in dragging earthy life into a certain direction. I think it would be clear to a Gnostic that the various "fundamentalisms" and monotheisms are not working for human liberation, but instead are traps created by Archons. I just raise the possibility that there is no escaping from "alien" influences, but it is more a question of figuring out how to align with those archetypal forces that are actually benevolent, such as, for instance, the "Divine Mother," the "Buddha of Compassion," or the "Gnostic Christ."

waterthere: "How would this explain your Quetzalcoatl transmission, incidentally? Is Quetzalcoatl an aspect of your own psyche?"

Certainly, Quetzalcoalt is an aspect of my own psyche, and an archetype of the collective psyche. What happened to me, as I understand it, was that I was impelled into fulfilling an archetypal pattern. This seems to have been predestined - or it would be better to say it is somehow acausal, a program enacted outside of our linear understanding of space and time. This seems indicated by the pun of my last name "pinchbeck" meaning "anything false or spurious," and hence an illusory reality synonymous with "maya." Also, the pun of my birthdate as 6/66 - and also, my placement in Arguelles' 13 moon system as his "perfect helping partner", plus my birthdate, June 15, being the date they discovered the tomb of Pakal Votan, which led to Arguelles' breakthrough understanding of time's fractal nature.

waterthere: "Does the archetype serve the purpose of isolating an aspect of yourself that's demanding focused attention?"

You are personalizing this process. I can also look at it in those terms, but I don't think that is the important point. It is the collective field of human consciousness that is demanding the fulfillment of this archetypal pattern - I am just the one who, for reasons of karma and the dictates of my own higher self, has been given this role. The process was extremely impersonal - and that was what has made it so difficult to integrate. Christ in the Gospel of Thomas says, "Blessed is the man who devours the lion and the lion becomes man, but cursed is the man that the lion devours and the man becomes lion." (paraphrase). I think he is writing out of his own personal experience here of what it is like when archetypal material constellates in the individual psyche. It is not pleasant or easy to subdue the lion!

"What's the purpose behind the demand for attention? Is it 'your' purpose or is it a collective purpose?"

You may see it as a "demand for attention" - that is your right. I am pretty clear that it is meant as a particular wake-up call for sleeping humanity. It is time to get our act together - as the poet Saul Williams put it,

When the clock strikes me
the powers of being will prevail
over the powers that be.

- that hour is fast approaching!

[gone]

Lovely stuff.

[JCCamp007]

Now we are getting to where we should be.For as the more we come to understand the man Christ,the more he becomes real in our lives.
Marvel not that I told you,"Ye must be born again"
Aren't those some of the most beautiful words you have ever heard.
And I tell you the truth.Just as in the life of any man on the brink of entering the ultimate consciousness His last words are the most powerful and prophetic.
"I am the Son of Man.Woman what do I have to do with thee?"
"Woman behold thy Son,.Son Behold thy Mother.It is finished."

[ July 26, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: JCCamp007 ]

[ph(^)id]

Just wanted to post this... I don't know if it relates much to the topic, but...

I was born sept 13, 79, on dec 21, 2012 i will be 33 years, 3 months, and 9 days old...

weird

[DogSoldiers]

I found a great book in a small bookstore in Edmonton, Alberta, called "Blackfoot Physics: A Journey into the Native American Universe" by F. David Peat. (Store is called Greenwoods, locally owned!!)

I'm not a Mayan anthropologist myself, but it does seem that Peat knows his stuff when it comes to the Time, Numbers, and Calenders of the Mayans. He ends his chapter on the Mayans by saying that the date for the end of the 5th Sun and arrival of the 6th Sun is December 24th, 2011! In very cordial fashion he goes on to state a few opinions about what the arrival of the new sun means within the Mayan interest and throughout North America.

I don't wish to argue dates, I'm just pointing out a different man's opinion to ponder and look into for yourselves. My Aunt from Big Mountain, Arizona also told me that the date may be closer to 2030.

Even without the Mayan stuff the book is a phenominal read and I highly recommend it to everyone here.

[ August 09, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: DogSoldiers ]

[Lowlight]

Hey DogSoldiers,

Just out of interest, what does he think will happen as the 5th sun ends and the 6th sun starts? there are so many different ideas about this, and i am interested as too what this guys perspective is.
Thanks

Lowlight

[DogSoldiers]

If you will...

"...but now a time is coming when the Mayan alliance will be renewed again and there will be a second great flowering -- not only in Central America but all over the Americas.
Such prophecies are being echoed by Elders and spiritual leaders all over North America. No matter the language they speak or the people from whom they originate, they all look to a time of great change. Some speak of it as the Great Purification when many living things will be destroyed and Mother Earth will enjoy a time of rest. Others say that it will be an inner purification or a change of consciousness. Some prophecies speak of the time when a new fire--the Seventh Fire--will be lit by the red and white peoples to serve as a light to all the races of the world. Others say that the time has come to speak to the white man again, that five hundred years ago The People spoke and no one listened, but now the white brother is more willing to sit down and learn from the red brother before it is too late. And, at least for the Mayan people, the time of this great change is already written in the stars."

Nothing really too far from what has been discussed on the forum here.

[Lowlight]

Thanks for the quote DS!

the future beckons...

[daniel]

i will have to get a copy of that book.

Peat also wrote a tremendous and fascinating book on synchronicity. He is a physicist who worked with David Bohm, then realized where the whole conception is pointing ... to the "end of time" and the movement into a synchronic domain where creative insights and synchronicities will be a constant aspect of being. I concur entirely with his paradigm.

By the way I think the mystery about the exact end date is a good thing... let the mystery be mysterious!

[DogSoldiers]

Good call Daniel. As they say on "What the bleep", 'don't be in the know, be in the mystery.'

I'm just fascinated by this book. When I first picked it up I immediately finished the book I was currently reading and then dove right into this one.

I'm definately going to have to find some of Peat's other stuff and some of Bohm's as well.

Oh, and you're very welcome Lowlight.

[ August 10, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: DogSoldiers ]

[Rob P]

hi all~

i just found an interesting interview
with peat, and he discusses his relationship
with bohm, as well as his and bohm's
relationship with krishnamurti....!!

http://www.wie.org/j11/peat.asp?page=1

Look for Truth No Matter Where It Takes You

F. David Peat on David Bohm, Krishnamurti and Himself
by Simeon Alev


introduction

While the lives of every scientist featured in this issue were touched in some way by the great spiritual teacher J. Krishnamurti, no scientist enjoyed a more intimate and enduring association with him than the late David Bohm.

Bohm and Krishnamurti first met in 1961 and their friendship, although it suffered a major crisis in 1984, ultimately lasted until Krishnamurti's death two years later.

Bohm began his scientific career as a protégé of J. Robert Oppenheimer, who headed the coordinated scientific effort known as the Manhattan Project to develop atomic weapons during World War II. By the time of his first encounter with Krishnamurti, Bohm had already gained an illustrious if somewhat controversial reputation as one of the most brilliant theoretical physicists of our era. He had developed the theory of the plasma—the fourth known state of matter, after the solid, liquid and gaseous states—and his analysis of the plasmatic behavior of electrons in metals had laid the foundation for much of solid-state physics. Bohm was also a central and outspoken participant in the ongoing debate which to this day surrounds quantum theory, and the creator of several provocative quantum "interpretations." While teaching at Princeton he had befriended Albert Einstein, who having spent years searching unsuccessfully for his own alternative to the generally accepted version of quantum mechanics, reportedly referred to Bohm as his "intellectual successor" and proclaimed, "If anyone can do it, then it will be Bohm."

But David Bohm is perhaps best known, especially among nonscientists, for a theory which was as much the expression of a lifelong spiritual quest as it was the fruit of profound scientific insight. This was his theory of the implicate order, founded on a vision of wholeness, or totality, in which matter and consciousness are united. Bohm appears to have been obsessed, even as a child, with the notion that we live in a universe in which matter and meaning are inseparable, and his use of the word "totality" to describe aspects of his scientific work during his first private meeting with Krishnamurti reportedly inspired Krishnamurti to jump out of his chair and embrace him.

When I read Bohm's Wholeness and the Implicate Order I often had similar feelings. The breadth and integrity of his vision is powerfully reflected in his reasoning, which is at once lucid, spacious, precise and deeply, mysteriously moving. Reading Bohm, one is stunned time and again by his ability to connect orders of phenomena which are staggeringly diverse, and by his passion for revealing the interrelatedness and dynamic cohesion of a world customarily viewed as a form of mechanized chaos in which humans are destined to play little part. Wrenched away from a vantage point of isolation and separateness, one discovers oneself to be deeply implicated in an indivisible universe which is at once palpably real and eternally mysterious, a single multidimensional event without beginning or end....

seeya
R O B

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by DogSoldiers:
"...but now a time is coming when the Mayan alliance will be renewed again and there will be a second great flowering -- not only in Central America but all over the Americas. ..."Speaking of Quetzalcoatl and the Mayans, have you all been keeping up with what's been happening with the Zapatistas in Chiapas? Earlier this summer, the leadership declared a red alert, and the Good Government juntas retreated to the jungle to assess the direction of the movement and decide how to proceed. Soon after they issued the Sixth Declaration from the Lacandon Jungle, a lengthy three-part document you can find in its entirety online here (http://www.ezln.org/) in Spanish, French, Italian and English. The third part of the declaration talks about what they plan to do and how they're going to do it. I think it offers interesting ideas for us, especially in light of Daniel's comments on another thread (http://www.breakingopenthehead.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000168) about the vacancy of current U.S. society and the idea of freedom through responsibility, which is essence of the Zapatistas...

ZAPATISTA ARMY OF NATIONAL LIBERATION.
MEXICO.

Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona

V - What We Want To Do

We are now going to tell you what we want to do in the world and in Mexico, because we cannot watch everything that is happening on our planet and just remain quiet, as if it were only we were where we are.

What we want in the world is to tell all of those who are resisting and fighting in their own ways and in their own countries, that you are not alone, that we, the zapatistas, even though we are very small, are supporting you, and we are going to look at how to help you in your struggles and to speak to you in order to learn, because what we have, in fact, learned is to learn.

And we want to tell the Latin American peoples that we are proud to be a part of you, even if it is a small part. We remember quite well how the continent was also illuminated some years ago, and a light was called Che Guevara, as it had previously been called Bolivar, because sometimes the people take up a name in order to say they are taking up a flag.

And we want to tell the people of Cuba, who have now been on their path of resistance for many years, that you are not alone, and we do not agree with the blockade they are imposing, and we are going to see how to send you something, even if it is maize, for your resistance. And we want to tell the North American people that we know that the bad governments which you have and which spread harm throughout the world is one thing - and those North Americans who struggle in their country, and who are in solidarity with the struggles of other countries, are a very different thing. And we want to tell the Mapuche brothers and sisters in Chile that we are watching and learning from your struggles. And to the Venezuelans, we see how well you are defending your sovereignty, your nation's right to decide where it is going. And to the indigenous brothers and sisters of Ecuador and Bolivia, we say you are giving a good lesson in history to all of Latin America, because now you are indeed putting a halt to neoliberal globalization. And to the piqueteros and to the young people of Argentina, we want to tell you that, that we love you. And to those in Uruguay who want a better country, we admire you. And to those who are sin tierra in Brazil, that we respect you. And to all the young people of Latin America, that what you are doing is good, and you give us great hope.

And we want to tell the brothers and sisters of Social Europe, that which is dignified and rebel, that you are not alone. That your great movements against the neoliberal wars bring us joy. That we are attentively watching your forms of organization and your methods of struggle so that we can perhaps learn something. That we are considering how we can help you in your struggles, and we are not going to send euro because then they will be devalued because of the European Union mess. But perhaps we will send you crafts and coffee so you can market them and help you some in the tasks of your struggle. And perhaps we might also send you some pozol, which gives much strength in the resistance, but who knows if we will send it to you, because pozol is more our way, and what if it were to hurt your bellies and weaken your struggles and the neoliberals defeat you.

And we want to tell the brothers and sisters of Africa, Asia and Oceania that we know that you are fighting also, and we want to learn more of your ideas and practices.

And we want to tell the world that we want to make you large, so large that all those worlds will fit, those worlds which are resisting because they want to destroy the neoliberals and because they simply cannot stop fighting for humanity.

Now then, what we want to do in Mexico is to make an agreement with persons and organizations just of the left, because we believe that it is in the political left where the idea of resisting neoliberal globalization is, and of making a country where there will be justice, democracy and liberty for everyone. Not as it is right now, where there is justice only for the rich, there is liberty only for their big businesses, and there is democracy only for painting walls with election propaganda. And because we believe that it is only from the left that a plan of struggle can emerge, so that our Patria, which is Mexico, does not die.

And, then, what we think is that, with these persons and organizations of the left, we will make a plan for going to all those parts of Mexico where there are humble and simple people like ourselves.

And we are not going to tell them what they should do or give them orders.

Nor are we going to ask them to vote for a candidate, since we already know that the ones who exist are neoliberals.

Nor are we going to tell them to be like us, nor to rise up in arms.

What we are going to do is to ask them what their lives are like, their struggle, their thoughts about our country and what we should do so they do not defeat us.

What we are going to do is to take heed of the thoughts of the simple and humble people, and perhaps we will find there the same love which we feel for our Patria.

And perhaps we will find agreement between those of us who are simple and humble and, together, we will organize all over the country and reach agreement in our struggles, which are alone right now, separated from each other, and we will find something like a program that has what we all want, and a plan for how we are going to achieve the realization of that program, which is called the "national program of struggle."

And, with the agreement of the majority of those people whom we are going to listen to, we will then engage in a struggle with everyone, with indigenous, workers, campesinos, students, teachers, employees, women, children, old ones, men, and with all of those of good heart and who want to struggle so that our Patria called Mexico does not end up being destroyed and sold, and which still exists between the Rio Grande and the Rio Suchiate and which has the Pacific Ocean on one side and the Atlantic on the other.

VI - How We Are Going To Do It

And so this is our simple word that goes out to the humble and simple people of Mexico and of the world, and we are calling our word of today:

Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona

And we are here to say, with our simple word, that...

The EZLN maintains its commitment to an offensive ceasefire, and it will not make any attack against government forces or any offensive military movements.

The EZLN still maintains its commitment to insisting on the path of political struggle through this peaceful initiative which we are now undertaking. The EZLN continues, therefore, in its resolve to not establish any kind of secret relations with either national political-military organizations or those from other countries.

The EZLN reaffirms its commitment to defend, support and obey the zapatista indigenous communities of which it is composed, and which are its supreme command, and - without interfering in their internal democratic processes - will, to the best of its abilities, contribute to the strengthening of their autonomy, good government and improvement in their living conditions. In other words, what we are going to do in Mexico and in the world, we are going to do without arms, with a civil and peaceful movement, and without neglecting nor ceasing to support our communities.

Therefore...

In the World...

1 - We will forge new relationships of mutual respect and support with persons and organizations who are resisting and struggling against neoliberalism and for humanity.

2 - As far as we are able, we will send material aid such as food and handicrafts for those brothers and sisters who are struggling all over the world.

In order to begin, we are going to ask the Good Government Junta of La Realidad to loan their truck, which is called "Chompiras," and which appears to hold 8 tons, and we are going to fill it with maize and perhaps two 200 liter cans with oil or petrol, as they prefer, and we are going to deliver it to the Cuban Embassy in Mexico for them to send to the Cuban people as aid from the zapatistas for their resistance against the North American blockade. Or perhaps there might be a place closer to here where it could be delivered, because it's always such a long distance to Mexico City, and what if "Chompiras" were to break down and we'd end up in bad shape. And that will happen when the harvest comes in, which is turning green right now in the fields, and if they don't attack us, because if we were to send it during these next few months, it would be nothing but corncobs, and they don't turn out well even in tamales, better in November or December, it depends.

And we are also going to make an agreement with the women's crafts cooperatives in order to send a good number of bordados, embroidered pieces, to the Europes which are perhaps not yet Union, and perhaps we'll also send some organic coffee from the zapatista cooperatives, so that they can sell it and get a little money for their struggle. And, if it isn't sold, then they can always have a little cup of coffee and talk about the anti-neoliberal struggle, and if it's a bit cold then they can cover themselves up with the zapatista bordados, which do indeed resist quite well being laundered by hand and by rocks, and, besides, they don't run in the wash.

And we are also going to send the indigenous brothers and sisters of Bolivia and Ecuador some non-transgenic maize, and we just don't know where to send them so they arrive complete, but we are indeed willing to give this little bit of aid.

3 - And to all of those who are resisting throughout the world, we say there must be other intercontinental encuentros held, even if just one other. Perhaps December of this year or next January, we'll have to think about it. We don't want to say just when, because this is about our agreeing equally on everything, on where, on when, on how, on who. But not with a stage where just a few speak and all the rest listen, but without a stage, just level and everyone speaking, but orderly, otherwise it will just be a hubbub and the words won't be understood, and with good organization everyone will hear and jot down in their notebooks the words of resistance from others, so then everyone can go and talk with their companeros and companeras in their worlds. And we think it might be in a place that has a very large jail, because what if they were to repress us and incarcerate us, and so that way we wouldn't be all piled up, prisoners, yes, but well organized, and there in the jail we could continue the intercontinental encuentros for humanity and against neoliberalism. Later on we'll tell you what we shall do in order to reach agreement as to how we're going to come to agreement. Now that is how we're thinking of doing what we want to do in the world. Now follows...

In Mexico...

1 - We are going to continue fighting for the Indian peoples of Mexico, but now not just for them and not with only them, but for all the exploited and dispossessed of Mexico, with all of them and all over the country. And when we say all the exploited of Mexico, we are also talking about the brothers and sisters who have had to go to the United States in search of work in order to survive.

2 - We are going to go to listen to, and talk directly with, without intermediaries or mediation, the simple and humble of the Mexican people, and, according to what we hear and learn, we are going to go about building, along with those people who, like us, are humble and simple, a national program of struggle, but a program which will be clearly of the left, or anti-capitalist, or anti-neoliberal, or for justice, democracy and liberty for the Mexican people.

3 - We are going to try to build, or rebuild, another way of doing politics, one which once again has the spirit of serving others, without material interests, with sacrifice, with dedication, with honesty, which keeps its word, whose only payment is the satisfaction of duty performed, or like the militants of the left did before, when they were not stopped by blows, jail or death, let alone by dollar bills.

4 - We are also going to go about raising a struggle in order to demand that we make a new Constitution, new laws which take into account the demands of the Mexican people, which are: housing, land, work, food, health, education, information, culture, independence, democracy, justice, liberty and peace. A new Constitution which recognizes the rights and liberties of the people, and which defends the weak in the face of the powerful.

TO THESE ENDS...

The EZLN will send a delegation of its leadership in order to do this work throughout the national territory and for an indefinite period of time. This zapatista delegation, along with those organizations and persons of the left who join in this Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona, will go to those places where they are expressly invited.

We are also letting you know that the EZLN will establish a policy of alliances with non-electoral organizations and movements which define themselves, in theory and practice, as being of the left, in accordance with the following conditions:

Not to make agreements from above to be imposed below, but to make accords to go together to listen and to organize outrage. Not to raise movements which are later negotiated behind the backs of those who made them, but to always take into account the opinions of those participating. Not to seek gifts, positions, advantages, public positions, from the Power or those who aspire to it, but to go beyond the election calendar. Not to try to resolve from above the problems of our Nation, but to build FROM BELOW AND FOR BELOW an alternative to neoliberal destruction, an alternative of the left for Mexico.

Yes to reciprocal respect for the autonomy and independence of organizations, for their methods of struggle, for their ways of organizing, for their internal decision making processes, for their legitimate representations. And yes to a clear commitment for joint and coordinated defense of national sovereignty, with intransigent opposition to privatization attempts of electricity, oil, water and natural resources.

In other words, we are inviting the unregistered political and social organizations of the left, and those persons who lay claim to the left and who do not belong to registered political parties, to meet with us, at the time, place and manner in which we shall propose at the proper time, to organize a national campaign, visiting all possible corners of our Patria, in order to listen to and organize the word of our people. It is like a campaign, then, but very otherly, because it is not electoral.

Brothers and sisters:

This is our word which we declare:

In the world, we are going to join together more with the resistance struggles against neoliberalism and for humanity.

And we are going to support, even if it's but little, those struggles.

And we are going to exchange, with mutual respect, experiences, histories, ideas, dreams.

In Mexico, we are going to travel all over the country, through the ruins left by the neoliberal wars and through those resistances which, entrenched, are flourishing in those ruins.

We are going to seek, and to find, those who love these lands and these skies even as much as we do.

We are going to seek, from La Realidad to Tijuana, those who want to organize, struggle and build what may perhaps be the last hope this Nation - which has been going on at least since the time when an eagle alighted on a nopal in order to devour a snake - has of not dying.

We are going for democracy, liberty and justice for those of us who have been denied it.

We are going with another politics, for a program of the left and for a new Constitution.

We are inviting all indigenous, workers, campesinos, teachers, students, housewives, neighbors, small businesspersons, small shop owners, micro-businesspersons, pensioners, handicapped persons, religious men and women, scientists, artists, intellectuals, young persons, women, old persons, homosexuals and lesbians, boys and girls - to participate, whether individually or collectively, directly with the zapatistas in this NATIONAL CAMPAIGN for building another way of doing politics, for a program of national struggle of the left, and for a new Constitution.

And so this is our word as to what we are going to do and how we are going to do it. You will see whether you want to join.

And we are telling those men and women who are of good heart and intent, who are in agreement with this word we are bringing out, and who are not afraid, or who are afraid but who control it, to then state publicly whether they are in agreement with this idea we are presenting, and in that way we will see once and for all who and how and where and when this new step in the struggle is to be made.

While you are thinking about it, we say to you that today, in the sixth month of the year 2005, the men, women, children and old ones of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation have now decided, and we have now subscribed to, this Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona, and those who know how to sign, signed, and those who did not left their mark, but there are fewer now who do not know how, because education has advanced here in this territory in rebellion for humanity and against neoliberalism, that is in zapatista skies and land.

And this was our simple word sent out to the noble hearts of those simple and humble people who resist and rebel against injustices all over the world.

Democracy!
Liberty!
Justice!

From the mountains of the Mexican Southeast.

Clandestine Revolutionary Indigenous Committee - General Command of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation.

Mexico, in the sixth month, or June, of the year 2005.

[daniel]

lines of convergence...

check out this new crop circle and the info at the bottom of the page about what the symbol represents:

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2005/marden/marden2005a.html

[tana]

loved your zapitista post, dragonfly...heartwarming and inspiring.

and the new crop circle symbol!! *shiver*

[ August 13, 2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: tana ]

[sire_012]

well that just blew my mind. saq' be' indeed....

[JCCamp007]

Beautiful picture Hoopes.
Have you seen robert Silvers portrait of Christ.
Same picture as yours,just different mechanisms to record The Image.

John Son,psychiatry

[Adame]

hey...i didn't read all of the other replies, because there are so many. i just wanted to let you know that the transmission you received seems to be the way it is. the message received seems to be a friendly one, and you seem to have allowed yourself to be a permeable means of getting that message into this realm, and perhaps a permeable vessel for carrying out what the message involves. i suppose the only part of Daniel that has rational reason to be afraid or anxious is the part that loves to do and be things (do-be-do). hmmm...im not sure if i have anything else to write. i think these are the right words to use...i want to sound as encouraging and comforting as possible, but im not sure if that matters or not. the intention is good!

pax vobiscum and hallelu-YOU!

zack

[habib]

Hi Daniel and everyone,

This is my first post to this forum. I read through a lot of what's been discussed on this thread, fascinating.

I wanted to share a recent experience that may loosely relate to Daniel's Quetzalcoatl transmission. I know I'm late to this particular discussion but I think this is an interesting synchronicity worth noting.

Over Labor Day weekend, my girlfriend P and I went to the catskills to trip. We've been doing this together for a couple of years now, with a wide range of results. I wont record the trip in its entirety here, only what i think is relevant to this thread.

We were shown a wide and varying array of visions. Actually I've never experienced so much visual information, it was terrifying and beautiful. The most interesting bit, however, was that the culmination or climax of the visions was an enormous, iridescent, dragon/serpent. It slithered and danced and flew in front of me as I sat there with eyes closed totally incapable of doing anything but stare at it terrified. hahahaaa. It was awesome! It seemed to say "I'M HERE" There was a lot of build-up to this vision and I somehow knew that this was "the point" of my journey that evening. Coming down later, when we could finally speak, I found out that P had had the very same experience. A giant dancing glowing rainbow serpent. Amazing, we'd shared a vision, a first for us.
We laughed at how unprepared we were for the occasion and how ridiculous we'd sound explaining this to our "straight" friends. I'd never known who Quetzalcoatl was or heard about the Vision Serpent until a few days after the experience when I did a search on "Serpent Iconography" and found this link :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Serpent

I think my girlfriend and I may have witnessed a manifestation of Queztalcoatl. Maybe this lends support to Daniel's vision. I feel blessed and grateful for having the experience and very optimistic about life in general.

I'm also happy to know there is a community like this one.These are important discussions.
Thanks to all of you doing this work.

habib

[tree hugger]

I'm not sure that anyone will find this as fascinating as I do since I'm about to do the unthinkable and talk about my child! She is 4 1/2.

This summer she and I were having a conversation about Buddha that went something like this;

daughter; Buddha is a god.
me; Really, you think so?
daughter; Yes, of course because he died.
me; What do you mean?
daughter; Everyone becomes a god when they die.
me; How do you know?
daughter; Because I've been a god and you and daddy and grandpa and grandma. Everyone has been, that's how it works. When you die you become a god. Really, it's true.

Any thoughts on this? Have we all been gods who must come down/or up ( what do I know) for our lessons or to collect energy that makes all this go around.

I went on to ask her if she thought she had been here before and she said yes but she didn't remember before being here. Although she said she did remember being born and preceded to tell me about how she felt while it was happening.

She also said to me when she was about three that, the reason she decided to stay ( in my stomach) was because I asked her too and that our hearts talked all the time when she was inside of me.

I could go on and on about the things she's said to me regarding the spirit world. It's true that I have told her I believe that all life has consciousness ( at least in four year old language) but I don't talk about it much.

She told me the other day that she sang songs to the future. Secret songs that she didn't want me to tell anyone about!

Here i've gone and done it.

Anyway, I think my point is this, I could never really wrap my mind around reincarnation, it's not that I didn't believe necessarily but, since the birth of my daughter that has changed. I have been told by every shaman, tarot reader and old women with some vision on the street that she's been here many times and I believe it. She simply knows more then most four year olds and perhaps adults about the heart. Not to mention that she is just closer to that place we all spend so much time trying to fortify ourselves against.

After reading the topic in it's entirety over the last two days I found myself with each new posting reminded that there is no easy answer and that in everyones post I found myself in agreement in some way or another. And perhaps the "truth" must lie somewhere in between all the theories, beliefs, and arguments. A pathway or door, whatever, that has not been reached or understood. I wonder if it will be simple stupid when we finally find it. A great collective laugh will resound. And the sun will come back.

In the end if this prophecy or channeling be a dark force or light, what is most important is the energy Daniel brings in combination with "it" that matters most. We have only our hearts and minds but mostly our hearts for protection. The heart is really the new consciousness right? This may be an old concept that has been framed in many different religions/ideologies but we are still struggling to understand it's nature. A labyrinth really.

Daniel, you have been given the large task of interacting with this energy, for that is what "it" truly is, isn't it? Energy. Now imbedded in your cells, heart and mind. Cleanse your self well and know your heart before you depart on a longer journey with it.

Blessings,

Tree hugger

[Shamaness]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tree hugger:
[QB]I'm not sure that anyone will find this as fascinating as I do I'm not sure that anyone will find this as fascinating as I do..."

me. i love what kids say.

thanks for sharing.

mom of two,
shamaness

[Lowlight]

yeah that ws a great post Treehugger.

You should check out the work of Dr Ian Stevenson who has done work on thousands of children who remember past lives. I think there is a thread about him under the first topic area on the message board.

[forteanajones]

Just to inject a bit of humor...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20050829l.jpg

[tesseract]

Treehugger, ever read Dune? You've got Alia on your hands.

the heart is really the new consciousnessamen.

[Agape_negates_fear]

If a Son of God does indeed reappear, when will he surface? Will it be during the moments leading up to 11:18 AM on 12/21/2012 or will he slither out of the woodwork sooner?

Another possibility is that the Avatar will not be recognizable as we become engulfed by the collective metamorphosis. When a planet reaches this point there are always a number of beings whose previous lives afford closer contact with raw intuition. These beings are not only aware of the presence of a Son of God, but also feel drawn toward that presence. This subtle attraction results in the acceleration of the underlying spiritual processes at work within such advanced individuals. With this in mind, we must observe that numerous beings will be striving toward the Christ-consciousness, and thus, numerous beings may claim to be the Avatar.

At this time I do not believe language has been molded enough to address this topic. When the time comes, the Avatar will reveal themself through language.

I will note that during the one Ayahuasca experience that I had I saw patterns that led me into an intuitional process that pertains to this topic. The patterns were the foundation of the Mayan eschatological experiment. At that point I remembered the way in which religions correspond to one another. This is a key point for where we are at right now. How do the different religions relate to the geomorphological and anthropological characteristics of a given region? And then, how do the religions coalesce when they are squeezed for substance? Each religion houses a unique trait that contributes to the whole when they are compressed. This ties into the coming Avataric age in that the Avatar is the consciousness made manifest that squeezes these seemingly asunder traditions together.

If you meditate on how the triangle is the common religious and shamanic symbol of intuitional certitude that dictates the nature of the spiritual ascent, then what we are headed towards becomes clear. A singularity is a conscious event that necessitates a comprehensive being. This being will possess the following traits (and not limited to): (a) the ability to endeavor into shamanic and higher trances that restore intuitional capabilities; (b) no recollection of past life experience; (c) absence of hallucinatory activity when engulfed by trance; (d) a proficiency in all creative actions, but an inability to manifest results; (e) the ability to alter language, and within several years, the ability to adjust language at the global scale. This description implies that the being(s) we are discussing would derive something vastly different from the DMT experience (and yet, has language even captured that yet?).

I believe the single most significant point provided to us by Christ was that the Way is straight and narrow. At this point there is much dissonance within the undergound. Many beings unknowingly possess divergent positions on the nature of this transitional phase. Some find teachers like Terence McKenna to be the most sound. Terence is a funny motherfucker
:eek: , but I do not resonate with one of his key philosophies. Creativity is part of the habitual force. My other discord with Terence stems from his apparent lack of religious understanding. Before I tried psychedelics, I meditated for several years (I am only twenty now). This meditation provided me with a firm compass for all subsequent psychedelic research. I know that for Terence, cannabis got him a little earlier. :D I recognize his role in this process, and am only interested in contributing to the language games that he so adores. I suppose my point then is to say that for those of you that have not endeavored into the realms of the spirit, unaltered and paradoxically unhinged, I would recommend it.

Good luck. ;)

[ October 03, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Agape_negates_fear ]

[imported_saoirse]

very interesting discussion. don't have much time to get my thoughts in order, so i will just post this link to a chapter from an e-book, "The Fullness of Being", by theologion Graeme Chapman.it is defintely worth ploughing through, and touches on some of the ideas in this thread. fyi, the whole discussion in the 'integral naked' discussion board where i discovered it is also worth checking out if you have some time. peace, kevin

http://integralnaked.org/forum/printable.asp?m=46911&mpage=12

some highlights:

"...Theological worldviews, focussing primarily on redemption, are inadequate. Redemption is one phase in a wider movement. When the parameters of the [61] broader drama are overlooked, the Christian worldview is distorted. To avoid this distortion we need to begin, not with redemption, but with creation... [God]created us knowing we would fumble the ball. This, in turn, implies that such failure was deliberately included in a more comprehensive plan.

To determine what was happening we will assume that God sat down to work out a plan for humanity, which obviously [s]
he had no need to do.

It appears that God's intention was to create people who could reciprocate his love, that is, people who would eventually find themselves caught up into the dynamic life of the Trinity, into a love that drew them deep into the heart of God and then sent them forth in mission.

To do this they needed to be given freedom, which, as we have argued, is more than a mere subjective choice between alternatives. It is saying yes or no to God, yes or no to intuitions of grace that encourage us to flow with certain options rather than others. This sort of decision-making, while subjective, needs to occur in an objective world.

Freedom, however, involved risk. Its misuse was inevitable. It was also necessary if we were to learn and grow.

Thus far, it has been suggested that, to love, we need to be able to make free decisions. Being free, we will make mistakes. It is through doubling back to rework our mistakes that we grow. Growth brings maturation, that is, wholeness and a capacity for self-giving.

Of course, our making of mistakes does not happen in a vacuum. We are born into circumstances that reflect the strengths and weaknesses of those who have preceded us.

In creating us, or, to put it another way, in inviting us to participate in self-creation, in a manner similar to that in which quantum mechanics suggests that we construct reality through our observation of it, it was necessary for God to provide what we needed to enable us to recover from our mistakes. He did this by helping us appreciate that we stood forgiven and by making his Spirit available to us to direct and energise our progress. [62]..."

"...The Trinity

The potential for human maturation was the gift of Grace. That grace became uniquely incarnate in Christ. Contact with Christ, whom Tillich described as the Bearer of the New Being,10 gives privileged access to this grace. It is through this Christ-event, which includes what Christians describe as the gift of the Spirit, that we experience God as love, in an intensity not possible before Christ's advent.

The concept of the deity as Trinity is an attempt at interpreting this event. As a doctrine, it is insightful, yet ultimately inexplicable. The doctrine of the Trinity was developed to explain how God was experienced by the early Christians in three unique ways, as the focus of worship, as Jesus Christ, and, following Pentecost, as inner Enabler. As an attempt to make sense of this three-fold experience, the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity was a natural and inevitable development. It should be recognized, however, that the concept is analogical. It is no less metaphorical than those metaphors that have been used to explain it.

At the expense of being considered Sabellian, I want to suggest that we should focus primarily on the unity, rather than on the threefoldness of God. Rahner, who shared the same preference, incorporated the threefoldness of God into a view of the oneness of God. He argued that, in-as-much-as God is experienced as an inner divinizing presence, we call him Holy Spirit. In-as-much-as he was present to us in Christ, we call him Logos, or Son, in an absolute sense. In-as-much-as he remains ineffable mystery, we call him Father.11 [63]

It is helpful to return to the distinction David Bohm drew between the explicate and implicate orders, in which the implicate order of unity is enfolded in the explicate order of diversity. Both are part of the one reality and neither can be reduced to the other or conflated with the other. This is, in part, what the doctrine of the Trinity is suggesting. In the context of Bohm's paradigm, it could be said that God is experienced both in diversity and in unity, with the inner core of oneness, or non-duality, enfolded within phenomenological diversity.

Despite the suggestion of the ontological priority of the order of unity, it is important that the explicate order of diversity, or the societal nature of God, also be emphasised. As Campbell and McMahon argue, the Trinitarian viewpoint, which emphasises differentiation, allows for development and process. They also contend that these two polarities, differentiation, or individuality, and unity, or a developing interconnectedness, are evident in the maturation of individuals.12

Universalism

If God has established a maturational process, then, as the author of this process, she is responsible for casualties. God never gives up on anyone. This suggests that God continues to work with us beyond death, a suggestion that is supported by a passage in 1 Peter, where Christ, between his death and resurrection, is said to have preached the gospel to those who perished in the Noahic flood, that is, to those who were regarded as the most debased of sinners.13

This line of argument also implies some form of universalism. We should not be too squeamish about believing that one day God will eventually save us all, as this conviction seems to be developed in passages in Colossians and Ephesians, where it is said that God will bring the whole universe, all in heaven and on earth, into a unity in Christ.14

So far, it has been argued that, to appreciate what God is about, one should begin, not with redemption, but with creation. This wider view, which frames the Christ event in broader perspective, enables us to see that salvation is a process of maturation. It is now time to narrow the focus and concentrate on the process of maturation..."

"...A Paradigm of Human Maturation

Human maturation involves self-fulfilment and self-denial. Tournier, in A Place for You, argued that the psychologists' doctrine of self-fulfilment, and the theologians doctrine of self denial, are not two separate and opposed gospels, but two phases of the one gospel.

On the basis of his medical practice, Tournier contended that some Christians suffer breakdowns in their mature years because when they were young they responded to a call to deny themselves before they had anything to deny. Leaving one's place before one has a place to leave is premature self denial, driven by the need to be accepted. The telltale sign, distinguishing premature self-denial from mature self-denial, is the presence of buried resentment.

Paradoxically, our capacity for mature self-denial is determined by the degree to which we are self-fulfilled. The more of ourselves we are in touch with, the more of ourselves we are able to give.15

Teilhard argued that the Church has rarely recognized human flourishing as an aspect of spiritual growth.16 In fact, the church has unwittingly aborted our natural flourishing, considering it to be selfish and sinful. It is little wonder that many Christians are arrested developmentally at the stage of infantile dependency.

Human Flourishing

Human flourishing involves the development of physical, intellectual, affective, moral, spiritual and creative capacities. It also includes the emergence of a sense of identity and a developing momentum towards individuation.

Self Emptying

Self-denial, or kenotic self-emptying, the second phase of the process of maturation, fosters self-control, gentleness, humility, an emptiness of self, a capacity for receiving and giving love, a willingness to flow with divine grace, an increasing freedom that expresses itself as commitment to others, discernment, intuitive wisdom and a capacity for powerlessness and vulnerability. It is also reflected in creativity, in the ability to live a day at a time, in an inner peacefulness and simplicity, in a spiritual and theological roundedness and in a heart hospitality that is free from judgementalism. [65]

Two Phases

We need to be a considerable way into the first phase of this developmental pathway before it is possible for us to enter upon the second. The first is the foundation of the second, without which the second becomes a parody of itself. But once we have begun to finger the experience of healthy self-denial, both phases influence each other and a rhythm is set up between the two.17

It doesn't always follow that people who set out to nurture the self, to discover themselves and explore their potential, necessarily progress to the second phase. With some people, myopic self-preoccupation is evidence that no substantial self-flourishing has really taken place. The pursuit of pleasure for pleasure's sake becomes self defeating. Some, who have focussed compulsively on self-development are like joggers who have ceased to run to maintain health and have instead become addicted to the rush of endorphins.

Ken Wilber's model of human maturation, which suggests a development from the undifferentiated oceanic consciousness of the maternal womb, through a gradual separation and individuation to a mature transpersonal, transcendental re-connection with the entire matrix of reality, is an alternative way of conceptualizing this two-phase development.18

The Transition

The transition between the first and second phases is neither sudden, nor once and for all. The first steps are tentative. There does come a time, however, when, for some people, there is a shift in overall balance between self-fulfilment and self-denial. For the rare few, there is a final confrontation with one's fragmented reality, when the first movement, like the wheels of a plane that has just taken off, are taken up into the second movement.19

This progressive shift of focus occurs through a removal of the boundaries, spoken of by Wilber, between ego and shadow, between self and body and between body/self and the wider environment, which includes an experience of the universal Self, or God.20

Whether one conceives of this maturational model in terms of stage transitions, or as an unfolding narrative, development can be seen to involve a continuing series of deaths and resurrections, experiences of metamorphosis in which old ways of conceptualizing and living reality are relinquished, in a surrender that awaits the grace of resurrection. These are vulnerable moments, when we must flow with the grace that carries us forward, without knowing what we will encounter when we emerge from the chrysalis..."

"...The Flow

In each of these ways of being in touch with reality, God is experienced in the process of reflecting or acting. This deep level of engagement, of discovering God in the flow of our lives, is what David Bohm called the holomovement,27 the movement between the explicate order of diversity and the implicate order of unity. It is not before, or after, or in some sort of static state, but in the movement, the flow, that God is known. [68]

Love

What we encounter, when we encounter God, is healing love. God is love. It is her quintessential essence.

It is lack of love, and therefore lack of self worth, lack of a sense of place, lack of security, lack of meaning, lack of an inability to give of oneself to others, and, therefore, lack of any positive basis for relating, that triggers behaviour that is destructive of oneself, others and society. On the other hand, it is love, and our appropriating of love, that brings healing.

Maturation is dependent on love in at least two ways, first, as the sun that opens our petals, and, second, as the ointment that heals our wounds. It is little wonder that God is concerned to enable us to recognize her presence and experience her love. There are a number of the ways in which this love is made available to us.

The Environment Embracing Us

It is present, in germ, as a given of our existence, in the ground of our transcendentality and our freedom.28 This love, like God, its author and source, is experienced in the movement of its reception and expression. As Rahner argued, love cannot be performed or negotiated. It is always on the way to itself.29 When one is in the process of receiving love, of trustingly surrendering oneself to its inner intimations, this surrender becomes the means of a different way of being and relating. It is thus that the seed of love and of our being grows to full flower.30

Sebastian Moore has argued that God, in structuring human existence in families, has provided a foundation for experiencing his love.

While we are in the womb, and in the months following birth, we are little more than an extension of our mothers. Because we claim so much of their attention, when they lovingly attend to us, we gain a deep sense of connection and feel loved and lovable.

However, as we grow, other responsibilities distract our mother's attention and we begin to separate from her. As a consequence, the sense of being loved and lovable diminishes. Eventually, we question the earlier feeling we had that we were both loved and lovable.

For a young boy, in the Oedipal phase, in which he finds himself in competition with his father for his mothers love, and where, as a consequence, he begins to identify with his father, this experience is particularly acute. The consequence of the Oedipal transition, and other maturational hurdles, is that the young child's feeling of being unloved and unlovable deepens and is reinforced by the wider society that has begun to engross his attention.31 [69]

The model of family, on which this scenario is built, is obviously ideal. Every family is different. Some are dysfunctional and destructive, particularly where the isolated nuclear family is the norm.

Anna Maria Rizzuto's Birth of the Living God supports Moore's thesis. Rizzuto, a Freudian psychoanalyst, working from an object relations perspective, argues that the image we have of God is based on parental images. She contends that this experience is universal. Children of professed atheists surreptitiously nurse these images, as a child will play with toys that she has secretly hidden under the bedclothes.32

Love can also be experienced in relationships with others, particularly where the other person is in touch with themselves and with the God within themselves, such that their lives effectively incarnate the divine energy, in both affectivity and action.

Jesus Christ

Christians want to assert that the most powerful incarnation of this love was experienced in the Christ event, that is, in Jesus of Nazareth and in "descent of the Spirit."

Jesus spoke about God's love, he exuded its affective fragrance and he lived its stubborn realism. It was, however, in his death, his living the consequence of his message that his love was most clearly evident.

Christ's death was significant from a number of perspective's. It was an example of how we are to live. It was a transformative revelation of God's love and compassion. It was a triumph over forms of evil that were its frustration and its denial. It opened us to the numinous. Furthermore, Christ, in his life narrative, which included his death, recapitulated the history of human experience, heading it in a new direction.

To live out a solidarity with us was enormously costly. Jesus died as a consequence of the way that he lived. He died because his preferential option for the poor and marginalized threatened privilege and power. His death was also a consequence of his confronting people with themselves. It was only thus that they could be healed. The costliness of this exercise was captured in the metaphors of sacrifice and ransom.

If Sallie McFague is correct in contending that God's effecting of our salvation through Christ was not an aberration, but a cosmic evolutionary constant,33 then I would want to argue that this salvation came into acute focus in the death of Jesus and the subsequent coming of the Spirit.

The maturity God is developing within us is reflected in an enhanced capacity for receiving and giving love, which is communicated to us in justification and sanctification.34 It is personal acts of love that give meaning and direction to everything else.35 This capacity for loving results from our [70] being caught up into the energy of love that constitutes the diversity and sociality of the deity, or, in traditional terms, the love that is reflected in the dynamic life of the Trinity.

Death and the Afterlife

In dealing with human maturation we cannot avoid facing the question of death and the afterlife.

The need to face death can precipitate reactions that run the gamut from fear to elation. Some experience a terror that mocks their attempts at achieving immortality. Others, at the opposite end of the spectrum, anticipate that their experience of a unitive love discerned in the communicative movement of a Go-Between-God36 will be replicated in the different world they will enter when they die. Reflecting the latter conviction, Rahner, a matter of days before he died, confessed that he was buoyed by the conviction that God had promised himself to him as his future, in spite of the persisting temptation to doubt this conviction.37

While speculation over human survival dominates discussion of the hereafter, the question of the future of the cosmic drama is of equal importance. The Christian conviction is that this drama will culminate in God's drawing all of Reality, the healed, re-integrated realm of diversity, back into herself, into the unitive dynamism of the implicate order, in which it finally experiences its telos, its consummation. As Rahner argues, it could be contended that God is, himself, this consummation and the energy, or principle that effects it.38 Furthermore, he contends, God has not been concerned solely with our planet, but is also the goal of peoples and histories, of alternative exercises in freedom and love, in other parts of the universe. The consummation he effects is cosmic in an ultimate sense.39 [71]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Wilber, Up From Eden, 87ff
2 J. Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, London, Paladin, Grafton Books, 1988, 3-25
3 R. Panikkar, Myth, Faith and Hermeneutics: Cross Cultural Studies, NY, Paulist Press, 1979
4 Wilber/Campbell
5 J. Hick, Evil and the God of Love, London, Collins, Fontana, 1968, 65ff
6 Julian of Norwich, Showings; The Classics of Western Spirituality, Trans. E Colledge & J. Walsh, London, SPCK, 1978; Teresa of Avila, The Interior Castle, The Classics of Western Spirituality, Trans. K.Kavanaugh & O.Rodriguez, London, SPCK, 1979
7 Anselm of Canterbury, Cur Deus Homo, F. S. Schmitt [Ed.], Munich, 1956
8 W. Kasper, Jesus the Christ, London, Burns and Oats: NY, Paulist Press, 1985, 220
9 Matt 5:44; 18
10 Tillich, Systematic Theology, Part Two, II
11 Rahner, FCF, 136
12 Campbell and McMahon, op. cit., 150
13 1 Peter 3: 19-20
14 Eph 1: 10; Col 1:20
15 P. Tournier, A Place for You, London, SCM, 1973
16 P. Teilhard de Chardin, Le Milieu Divin, London, Collins, 1957, 96f
17 This two-phase paradigm is explored in greater depth in G. Chapman, Spiritual Development: A Path to Wholeness, Melbourne, CCTC, 1987
18 K. Wilber, No Boundary: Eastern and Western Approaches to Personal Growth, Boston & London, Shambhala, 1979: K. Wilber, The Atman Project: A Transpersonal View of Human Development, Wheaton, Quest, The Theosophical Publishing House, 1980
19 Teilhard, Le Milieu Divin, 99
20 Wilber, No Boundary; K. Wilber, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality: The Spirit of Evolution, Boston & London, Shambhala, 1995
21 M. Eckhart, "Sermon 76", Meister Eckhart: Teacher and Preacher, B. McGinn [Ed.], The Classics of Western Spirituality, NY, Paulist Press, 1986, 327
22 T. Merton, New Seeds of Contemplation, New York, New Directions Book, 1972, 29ff
23 Julian of Norwich, Showings, E. Colledge & J. Walsh [Trans & Intro], The Classics of Western Spirituality, London, SPCK, 1978, 258
24 The Cloud of Unknowing, J. Walsh [Ed. and Intro.], The Classics of Western Spirituality, London, SPCK, 1981, 150
25 G. Baum, Man Becoming God: God in Secular Experience, NY, Herder and Herder, 1970, 264
26 H. J. M. Nouwen, Reaching Out: The Three Movements of the Spiritual Life, Glasgow, Collins, Fount Paperbacks, 1982, 45f
27 D. Bohm, "Meaning and Information", Paavo Pylkkänen, The Search for Meaning: The New Spirit in Science and Philosophy, Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, 1989, 43-85
28 Rahner, "The Commandment of Love," TI, Vol. 5, 443
29 ibid., 451
30 ibid., 454
31 S. Moore, Let This Mind be in You: A Quest for Identity from Oedipus to Christ, London, Darton, Longman & Todd, 1985
32 A-M. Rizzuto, The Birth of the Living God: A Psychoanalytic Study, Chicago and London, The University of Chicago Press, 1979
33 McFague, op. cit., 75
34 Rahner, "Reflections on the Theology of Renunciation," TI, Vol. 3, 47
35 Rahner, "Unity of the Love of Neighbour and Love of God," TI, Vol. 6, 241
36 J. V. Taylor, The Go-Between God: The Holy Spirit and the Christian Mission, London, SCM, 1976
37 Kelly, Karl Rahner, 30
38 Rahner, "Consummation of the World," TI, Vol. 10, 289
39 Rahner, FCF, 445

peace, kevin

[Humming]

Treehugger,

It seems that you have been blessed by the prescence of a timeless being in the guise of a 4 1/2 year old girl!

How lucky the both of you are! :D

Be sure to give her plenty of opportunities to express her own God-form. Such a spirit likely needs a lot of space to feel complete.

[JCCamp007]

I am going to Mexico with at least twenty thoudsand to buy land.Are there any others who would enter into an investment there with me.
I am planning to invest close to an island that the Bush family bought part of,The Grand Bay Hotel.
Where two or more are gathered together,there I am also.

Mpski

[Vajra Guru]

Treehugger,

I wanted to throw light on what your daughter said.

In the Buddhist cosmological picture there are certain positions one can rise or fall to after death. A human can go down into the animal kingdom, down into the realm of hungry ghosts or indeed languish for a millenia in Hell. Alternatively one can take rebirth as a human again, or as a Demi-God or indeed as a God. The ultimate however is transcendance, to leave the wheel and enter Nirvana. As did Lord Shakymuni, the last Buddha, as far as we Buddhists are concerned. Hopefully your daughter is confused by the difference of human transcendance, and rebirth as a God...because if Buddha ended up a God that dashes the vague hope that the rest of us have of Nirvana, i.e. if a fully enlightened one failed then what hope us?

So assumeing its merely the difficulty of a 4yr old explining that, its very good to hear that her words essentially go toward validateing some of the Buddhist view.

Though I would say we dont all become Gods every time we die, it depends on what we do now. Incidently Gods cant reach enlightenment and transcend, only humans can.

VG

[jezebelle]

"Though I would say we dont all become Gods every time we die, it depends on what we do now. Incidently Gods cant reach enlightenment and transcend, only humans can"

Well said! The fun of why we came here to create new dimensions of life in our transcending ways.
Maybe you'll metitate, maybe I'll put on an art show, maybe someone will tune into the singlarity beyond time. Participation with divinity/life/earth has its rewards.
Archetype bleeds into the now.
repectfully, jez2

[SecondSun]

Forteanajones, great comic. Is it bad that I feel like I've actually had that conversation on multiple occasions? I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw it... really quite funny. :D

[willoweyes]

Hey, share the joke, Fort and SS! Or let it be simple enough for the simple to appreciate.

[willoweyes]

Uh oh, I got it. Didn't really open my eyes. Forget I opened my mouth.

As JJWalker said, "And them Limey eyes, they were eyeing the Prize\Some people call manly footwear. And they said "You're from down South, and when you open your mouth, you always seem to put your foot there..."

[JCCamp007]

Yeah,said the old cow.
Meow,said the old sow and a dog gets it one way or the other in the end.It's just natural.

I think that as we learn there are other forms of life on other planets that on other planets "the others" will keep humans as pets instead of us keeping them.

Sell all that you have and flee to the mountains-the Mountains of Bush-Oklahoma,God's country.

[whitewave]

Daniel,
I'm trying to find a post you wrote last winter about the different ways mediation between the human world and the spirit world has occurred on earth. The discussion had to do with human sacrifice and the Aztecs, I believe, and I think Gebser (who I have not yet read) may have been involved. Anyway, I think it was on this thread but can't find it. Any direction from anyone would be appreciated. The issue I am trying to develop and resolve is what is the new paradigm going to be? I am searching for a new paradigm to present in my writing and speaking--one that does not require sacrifice in order to achieve union with god. thanks everybody for all your words here...I have been very internal for the past year and have not communicated much, learning to let go of my need to communicate out of loneliness--one more addiction to work through, it seems.

[willoweyes]

Just a thought--the sacrifice of one's own sweat might be as sweet in the Lord's eyes as the spilling of the Other's blood.

[JCCamp007]

Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,with all thy might,with all thy soul.
We haven't been allowed to really understand the Lord and His ways.We have been steered,by alot of the churches,into trusting a social super-ego instead of cosmic truths.
Yes of course Willow,the Lord loves peace.
That is why Islamic radical terrorism represents the way of the beast and cannot be tolerated by those who truly love the Lord.
Mpski

[Charlie]

Just curious, Daniel:

Did you finish your book? If so, are you pleased with it?

Did you manage to integrate the Quetzalcoatl material in a way that was satisfactory to you?

[nanouk]

...and so we are here, thirteen moons later, and hopefully much closer to All That Is...

I have taken much needed "Time Out" from the daemon I call technology, but I am looking forward to catch up on the musings and observations of some of the most interesting people I know of, and i see the memberships are still rolling in... smile.gif

How are You all, and what has(just out of interest), Quetzalcoatl taught You this past year?

I've learned many hard lessons, and gained much more peace and focus...

Peace to You All, and keep loving the Great Cycle,
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

With Respect,
~N~

[MidnightDreary]

Great to see you're back Nanouk! I was hoping you would rejoin us someday.

[Lowlight]

hi nanouk!

i always wondered what happened to you and if you would ever be back here!

good to hear you are doing well. you have come back just as things seem to be picking up around here after a fairly long lull.

Hope you stick around!

lowlight

[whitewave]

Hello as well, Nanouk,

I haven't been on the board consistently for a while as well--and right before you wrote again I was thinking about you, wondering what had happened to you? It seems to me since some others have expressed this as well that there must be a synchronicity in regards to your return. What insight are you bringing us?

You asked how the feathered serpent has affected is in the past year. I wasn't really aware that the feathered serpent was affecting me until you asked, but now that you have it seems clear that he has. For the past four years (since right before 9/11) I have been working with snake medicine, transmuting through pain. A month ago I entered my eagle initiation. I had incredible encounters with two golden eagles and a young bald eagle over two days! The snake combined with the eagle--I now see the feathered serpent is manifesting in me. To be honest, I have forgotten what Quetzalcoatl symbolizes, but I think he represents the awakening of Christ consciousness--unconditional love for all of humanity. While I have a very long way to go, I have definitely felt a big shift since my encounters with the eagles. I now really believe in the power of the mind to shift material reality, now see how material reality is a reflection of our consciousness, and because of this belief, have let go of my fears about the ecological crisis of the earth because I believe that we are no longer a hopeless case.

Part of eagle medicine is to look for aspects of one's personality that need refinement. I have been much more in control of my thoughts, more disciplined and aware of how often I judge people and catching myself when I do. My teacher recommended sending out "energy bouquets" to anyone I find myself having a negative judgment against. When you envision that person receiving a bouquet from you, you not only set the stage to have a better interaction the next time you come into contact, you release yourself from the negative impact the judgment makes on one's own spirit, since, as Christ conciousness teaches, we are all one. Any judgment against another is a judgment against myself which stops me from standing in the center of my heart and embracing all experience as part of the divine plan.

Having gone through the pain of a snake initiation, I have developed compassion for suffering. Now, through the eagle, I am learning to connect with spirit while still living on earth. More than anything, I feel deep gratitude at being on earth during this incredible time, and for all of my teachers who have led me to this point. This includes everyone I have connected with on this board. This includes everyone I have ever connected with. Thank you!

[craazyman]

Just ran across some interesting stuff on the historicity of Quetzalcoatl by Norweigian author Thor Heyerdahl, who is probably most famous for sailing the balsa wood raft Kon Tiki from Peru to Polynesia in the late 1940s to support his controversial theory that South Pacific cultures originated with sea migrations from Peru.

In his book "Early Man and the Ocean" he makes the case that Quetzacoatl represented a caucasian culture that originated in the mediterranean region and reached central America in prehistoric time via the same ocean highway that Columbus used in 1492. They were highly capable pyramid builders, artisans, farmers, clothing makers and had developed an ethics-based rule of law. This was the culture that indiginous central American and upper South American cultures all cite as their early teachers, who eventually rose to a status of divinity. Heyerdahl quotes the Aztec chief Montezuma's welcome speech to Cortez, in which Montezuma sums up this history. That alone is amazing.

Heyerdahl doesn't make the Atlantis connection--he was far to sober for that--but it's hard not to. Apparently, there's archeological/narrative historical evidence that places very early, megalithic, high culture settlements on the Atlantic shore of Morrocco before historical time. That's "outside the pillars of Heracles" where Plato places Atlantis, even though modern Atlantis hunters seem to find Atlantis in all sorts of highly improbable places, like volcano islands in the Aegean way inside the mediterranean.

This perspective on Quetzalcoatl places him squarely in history. It's easy to surmise that the figure of Quetzalcoatl could have been a composite of a large number of representatives of this culture, one that summarizes its impact on the native culture.

My summary hasn't done the richness of Heyerdahl's thesis justice. He's a great writer and his books are fascinating reads for folks interested in this sort of thing.

[ December 27, 2005, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: craazyman ]

[daniel]

Interesting. Is this book in print or available on line?

[craazyman]

Not sure if it's still in print, or on line. I checked it out of the Arlington County Virginia central library. I think it's fairly mainstream stuff so could likely be in many public libraries. I don't know for sure, but would bet New York City's system has it.

Mainstream, at least, in that Heyerdahl was a well-known figure back in the 50s and 60s. His book about the Kon Tiki expedition was a best-seller, book of the month club. He was also a staunch environmentalist and "multi culturalist"--he wanted nothing to do with any colonialist sense of superiority. He was quite a humanist. Apparently he died in his late 80s, a few years ago. I just happened upon his books on a family bookshelf, looking for something to read over Christmas.

[ December 28, 2005, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: craazyman ]

[postmodernennui]

That book looks fascinating! Thanks for the recommendation. It is out of print but seems to be widely available.

From an Amazon.com review of Early Man and the Ocean: A Search for the Beginnings of Navigation and Seaborne Civilizations
by Thor Heyerdahl

Early Man and the Ocean is another in Thor Heyerdahl's rewriting of the ancient history of the Americas and Polynesia. Published in 1978, it contains a number of chapters on information not covered in his earlier books, including his proposed timeline for the peopling of Polynesia by not one, but two different peoples. Indeed, what makes this book different is that here the author ties together his findings from many different lands, into a logical whole.

If you liked Kon-Tiki and Aku-Aku, then this book is for you. My only complaint against this book is that I dearly wish that it would be updated and reissued.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385127103/002-8056479-2503260?v=glance&n=283155

[nanouk]

whitewave wrote:
More than anything, I feel deep gratitude at being on earth during this incredible time, and for all of my teachers who have led me to this point. i am just about to yet again flop down on Earth, kissing the ground, the feet of our ancestors...
i haven't done much journeying since last February, the last one kinda "freaked" me out, and i felt i was about to get stuck in the Faery Realm, or Otherworld.
i let my life get shattered, literally, last year, and got angry, angry, angry...
now i am putting back the pieces, and in the process have done much good self healing, and healing on my family. the pieces are seeming to be in the right place this time...

Life is Good.

still haven't consistently logged on here myself, haven't set up my pc in my new, (subletted) home, and to be honest, the longer i leave it, the less i will need it.

i am hoping to take a course at the Shamanka school for Women down in Devon this spring, just to make sure i know how to protect myself...so called "psychic protection". that's my downfall, strong compassion and empathic disposition, kinda forget about "me" sometimes...

keep dancing the Sun Dance, you all, and i will see you soon,

Love and Respect,
~N~

[ January 13, 2006, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

[nanouk]

ps. Thor Heyerdal, an amazing man with an amazing ancient "memory"...there is also a film about his Kon-Tiki...i am intrigued by his findings that the Rapa Nui and other indigenous cultures told of a "tall, white man with a beard who arrived in a boat and taught them how to read the stars and build pyramids"

[Humming]

Hey Nanouk, glad you're back! I wondered about you....

[nanouk]

Xolotl...Quetzalcoatl's "evil" twin brother...i have often wondered if he is to return too...or if it is into his mirror we are looking at present...

have read a couple of interesting books lately...i remember now that Halfglass and possibly also Daniel mentioned "The Cosmic Serpent-DNA and the origins of knowledge" by Jeremy Narby...

fascinating stuff, resonates very much with what i have always believed-and experienced...
the photons in our DNA emitting light, if ever so faint, and it could be percieved when in a shamanic trance, or any perceptive state...

another book i just finished, touching on a similar subject, but from a shamanic practitioners point of view, rather than anthropological and biological, is:"The Spiral of Memory And Belonging-A Celtic Path of Soul And Kinship" by Frank MacEowen, where he explores this same primordial light(life force?), which according to Celtic tradition is called Dana, from the tribe Tuatha De Danann also called The Faery People or 'Shining Ones'.
he found remarkable similarities between what ayahuasceros said, and his own work with Dana energy.

this is a poem he wrote after his journey with the Yage:

Serpents Ladder

I languished, spinning,
outside of time,
like Jonah inside his whale.
I twisted, turned,
churned, and burned,
for whole epochs
inside the Great Anaconda.

Just when all seemed to be lost,
nearly swallowed by a forever-darkness,
all worlds were suddenly pierced,
by a blinding light and a gentle voice.

Christ the Shaman,
a great vegetalista,
plunged his hand downward
through the great serpent and said,
"Wake up, little brother! It is a brand new
day. It is good to wake up, don't you see?!"

He did not grab or rescue me.
He is not that kind of savior,
nor is he a road,
but instead
a
swinging door
to another world.

He pointed to a white rib,
curved and gleaming,
and said, "Climb, little brother. Climb."
And this is why I stand here today,
born,
once again,
from the land
of my greatest fear.

anyways, i am just curious if Daniel is going to mention the twin serpent, Xolotl, in his new book, since the hermetic symbolism is evident, as is Ophichius(sp?).

~n~

[Anistara]

wow. i can't believe how long this thread is!

i am very much looking forward to reading daniels new book. i really should pay more attention to BOTH. thanks for all your input people. i was looking for a chill read at the chomputer. smile.gif

[Swami]

As one who has been around the block, I have watched as thousands of public 'prophecies' have fallen flat with nary a one even coming close. There is no reason to give any credence to your vision as an actual event.

2012 has no more significance than December 31, 2000. It is a calendar date, not a harbinger. That date will come and pass as did the Harmonic Convergence and other nonsensical and arbitrary dates. Note how McKenna's whole timewave theory has failed to hold up to scrutiny.

The Mayans were certainly MORE interested in their own demise than that of some white westerners hundreds of years hence.

[ February 05, 2006, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Swami ]

[Rob P]

.......
Swami~
welcome to BOTH!
and thanks for rolling your eyes all over the boards...
it's about time we had someone showering us
with abundant wisdom- so please do!!!!
or is the eye-rolling just a ruse....?????

seeya
r o b
.......

[Swami]

?

[Lowlight]

you seem to have zero understanding of prophecy, so why comment on it?

Mckenna wasnt precise as to what 2012 means anyway, and seeing its 2006...you might be a little early in judging.

[JCCamp007]

Lowlight,you seem a bit manic today,
or was it yesterday pernilla?
Anyway deducing your problem numerologicaly 2006=8 and 2012=5.
8 is almost like 10,thus the understanding of the wholeness of it all can -shall-will-maybe-be understood.All the myths overtaken,the truth shines for once this year.
5 is of course is a solid number almost as close as 8 is to 10.

Duality must rear her ugly head again in 2012.

Oh by the way,I have some beautiful pictures of pictures in jungle temples near Guatamala if I can figure out how to post them.
Very interesting picture of Quetzalcoati.
Who now lives in Checotah.

I'm ready to head to Mexico if any out there want to go with me.
I need all the good help I can get.
I can't even keep up with my oil and gas wells and think I am being robbed.

[ February 06, 2006, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: JCCamp007 ]

[Swami]

Originally posted by Lowlight:
you seem to have zero understanding of prophecy, so why comment on it?Wow! My first personal attack here. How utterly quaint and 'predictable'.

Can you not respond to my points instead of doing some fallacious mind-reading?

[Rob P]

.......
swami~
one sure sign of fallacious wisdom is found
in believing that one has actually been around the block...
the whole block that is!
r o b
.......

[Lowlight]

I cant be bothered arguing over things like this anymore. it bores me to the point of playing with razorblades. You dont believe in prophecy? Skeptical? fine. To me its like someone not believing the the sky is blue. All i have to do is look at it to know it is. Same for prophecy. I only need to reference personal experience to know prophecy is part of reality. Being trapped in reductionalist/materialistic viewpoints is quaint and predictable. I left that a long time ago.

[nanouk]

"Life is what you make it"

...it is never too late to discover Talk Talk...

without these positive prophesies, we, as a human race would be doomed, amongst the doom and gloom that keeps sticking to our sorry selves!

Winter Solstice/Summer Solstice 2012....what a lovely date to stick to... smile.gif

at least we can tell our offspring, nephews and nieces to keep hoping...

Love and Respect,

~n~