battles with demons [Archive] - Breaking Open The Head

John Hoopes

12-18-2002, 05:01 AM

Some of my favorite Renaissance images are the various ones of St. Anthony, who battled with various demons. Saint Anthony Tormented by Demons (http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/intg/ho_20.5.2.htm) by Martin Schongauer (ca. 1441-1491) is one of the best known. Howeever, the most wonderful of all is Hieronymus Bosch's tryptich The Temptation of St. Anthony (http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/bosch/tempt-ant/) (c. 1500), whose interpretation by Laurinda Dixon is described online by John Lienhard (http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi258.htm):

"We do know that Bosch drew on the folklore of his day -- that 15th-century viewers recognized the demons of their own mythology in his work. But Dixon discovers something more. At least in this St. Anthony painting, Bosch is transmuting the pharmaceutical and medical technology of his day into metaphor.

"The painting shows us stages of St. Anthony's life, yet everywhere in its mad landscape we see elements that make no sense to us: an amputated and mummified human foot, a strange figure -- half human, half vegetable, an egg-shaped structure belching smoke and flame. What can be going on!

"Dixon's answer is that during Bosch's life the disease called St. Anthony's Fire was rampant. Today we know that St. Anthony's Fire was caused by a form of grain ergot. The symptoms included fiery pain and gangrene that required amputations. Furthermore, since ergot baked in bread dough forms LSD, the disease also led to terrifying hallucinations. Indeed, the witch-hangings that went on in Salem, Massachusetts, a century later occurred during an outbreak of rye ergot. Those poor ladies, like the imagined viewers of Bosch's triptych, were probably just high on acid...

"The odd vegetable creature is painted in the shape of a mandrake root. Mandrake was the herb used to stanch the feverish pains of St. Anthony's Fire. The egg-shaped building is exactly the shape of an apothecary's retort -- the distillery used to reduce medicinal herbs."

Funny how this brings us back to entheogens...

By the way, the contemporary artist whose work (including many images of battles with demons) most recalls that of Bosch for me is psychedelic painter Robert Williams (http://www.sfmoma.org/espace/rsub/project/bluedot/williams/index0.html).

[ December 18, 2002, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: John Hoopes ]

TarNutz

09-03-2003, 09:32 AM

Anita, you asked for historical accounts of a Human/Demon conflict? Let me tickle you with a quote whose author I cannot remember:

"Hell is empty, and the devils are all here."

Historical context is good. You can glean hints about how to "fight" demons and other undesireable thoughtforms from such tales. However, it is good to know that one's personal demons are always more terrifying than any boogyman that someone else can conjure in a book or film.

Another good quote from one practiced in these maneuvers is "A God ignored is a Demon born". IE, all Demons are just Gods acting out of turn, for their purposes rather than yours. By understanding them (hey, they're "you" too: have a little respect!) and working with and around them, you can "conquer" them and bring them into line with your Will. But simply suppressing them doesn't work (not for long, anyway). Witness the professional priest who suppresses his hidden desires while "on duty": then later, the demons come screaming up out of the cellar at unexpected moments and manifest the desire anyway, usually in a twisted form.

So, in effect, all "wars with demons" are really internal psychological struggles; either personal or evangelical. Everyone does it to some degree: we all have to MANAGE our temptations and interests so that they do not become addictions or obsessions. There's a whole system of Magick dedicated to overcoming the weakness of the self: they call it Thelema, and those who practice it Thelemites. I've not been formally inducted, so I cannot elucidate, but the material's out there online if you're interested. Do a search on Thelema, you'll find out lots. The magickal society associated with Thelema is the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis, I believe); I'm pretty sure they've got a website somewhere.

I haven't read Moonchild yet: but according to Joan d'Arc's "Phenomenal World", L. Ron Hubbard (soon to be founder of Scientology) and John Parson (once head of the OTO Los Angeles lodge) in 1946 practiced the Babalon working with intent to create this Moonchild (a homonucleus, meant to be an "artificial Messiah"). Supposedly this did not work out quite as planned, with Parson getting the short end of the stick.

For personal exercises in "etheric self defense" against such entities as demons, look up Banishing and the LBRP (the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram). It's pretty basic and straightforward. Basically all you're doing with Banishing is you're clearing out a "space" for your mind to work with and get it attuned to the divine. It's meant to prepare your mind for the magick you're about to attempt. It's not always necessary to banish to "work" magick. Some people never banish, and report good results with their workings anyway. Some people banish before AND after a ritual to "clean up their mess". I personally banish before attempting anything I haven't done before if I have the time to do so, and after any working of great import where I feel a weight has been lifted from me. The same techniques can be used after a little practice to calm the mind before doing something unusual or difficult in the mundane world as well.

One of the best banishings, oddly enough, is a good round of laughter. Laughter quite naturally dispells overwrought vibes and "clears the channel" for new thought. People laugh when their minds form new, unexpected connections between seemingly disparate events or concepts. So, sometimes a good forced belly-laugh can be quite effective as a close to a ritual.

Don't get discouraged! If things don't feel quite right, try acting as though they were. Sometimes, effects precede their causes. For instance, to remedy a lack of confidence, pretend to be confident for a few days. If you don't know where to start, pretending to have an absolute LACK of confidence can be instructive. Soon enough, after pretending to be confident, you'll realize that the pretense and the actuality of confidence are one and the same: as the Chaotes say, "Fake It Till You Make It!"

Hope this helps. Have fun everyone, and don't do anything I wouldn't do twice!

P-Tar

paul

09-05-2003, 11:10 PM

ta

again id recommend the book "the stargate conspiracy" ...all the "magical societys" you mention have CIA connections or sponsorship at some point in their history

dont read me wrong..id be the last person to discount the validity of prayer/the will /magic

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Anita

09-12-2003, 02:12 AM

Goodmorning all,
It's been a while since I checked into what we are talking about on this board.Got a PM from a kind soul with a book recommendation,Thanks,and I will make sure to check it out.

Since I first had the experience of "feeling"the
"others",a lot of stuff has happened,in my personal life as well as worldevent wise.It's quite a coincidence? that this thread is popping up again with the close visit by Mars.I think maybe a lot more people are feeling the closeness of whatever those things are.
I don't quite agree with Tarnutz in that these things are internal demons,although they are most certainly there as well.The ones I speak of is the intelligence behind the pain we inflict upon ourselves as well as others.
The best advise I have been able to find is the whole idea of transmutation of dark into light.
Jesus had a whole lot to say about it,The Bon tradition of Tibet has a ton of good stuff.
In Olga Kharitidis Master of Lucid dreams,It is explained that these demons gain access to the human soul by trauma,This really rings true with me.So how do we heal the trauma?Love and kindness,to ourselves and others.
One exercise I have found helpful is to ask myself,Who speaks?whenever I have a emotional reaction to something.I have been surprised at how when the question is asked,I see that the petty or aggressive(the list goes on and on)thoughts I have is not really rooted in me,or should I say the "me"that hold the "godspark"
I don't really like the whole magick deal,to me it seems to play into this whole idea of separation and inequality,and I believe that mindset is what we have to guard ourselves and our world against.The key is love,or warmth.
I believe we are indeed the dreamer and the dreamed,The Toltects seem to have a good understanding of this,at least as far as I can see with what little I have been able to find.
So,if we can accept the fact that we don't really exist in the way we are told we exist by the human experience so far,and if we are able to connect to "light",or warmth,if we leave our selfimportance at the door,things become a lot less scary.After all,There is only God,and who among us humans can truly understand the immensity of it?I believe there is only one,the darkness is a part of this one God as well.
(And knowing that,it sure doesn't make it any easier to look at)
My point is,that these things can not be fought with feelings of fear or aggression,or secret rituals or even mantras.It must start in the heart,with compassion and a heart knowledge that these things are also of the same creator that created me you and all we see around us.
Knowing that,I still think we have a responsibility to keep those dark forces at bay,some of His creation is just not that good for us humans.I believe all suffering comes from these things,and while suffering is a great teacher indeed,The mother in me would shield our children from the horror of what thoughts can be created in darkness.
In Loving
Anita

sire_012

09-12-2003, 03:35 AM

anita:
The ones I speak of is the intelligence behind the pain we inflict upon ourselves as well as others.yes, it seems there are some intelligences that seem to feed on energy created through more desperate emotions. in my opinion, there are some intelligences that, much like we find plots of earth to farm, search and find people whom they can manipulate into degenerating loops and farm them, fattening up their emotive responses and antagonizing them into deeper plays of these degenerative loops.

It is explained that these demons gain access to the human soul by trauma,This really rings true with me.So how do we heal the trauma?Love and kindness,to ourselves and others.i've tried over and over to grok the concept of karma and a path that would allow someone to move outside of the karmic wheel. the conclusion i've come to presently is a low sound to noise ratio is the best way to live without the cumulative appretiation of karma. this presents karma outside of a moral structure as it seems to me that morality is simply a reflection of the moores of the society in which you live, which, as far as i can tell, is one part of your karmic script. passing the information that your conduit is best scribed to pass, while passing it with the least amount of noise - or non-related information generated from unfocused energy - is a goal.

One exercise I have found helpful is to ask myself,Who speaks?whenever I have a emotional reaction to something.I have been surprised at how when the question is asked,i've also found the deeper i get into this (my big head) the more organization is required as well. i've started doing something similar to what you are doing.. in every new situation i find myself in (morning shower, getting to work, going out, talking to a stranger) i ask myself 5 questions in order to stay focused:

what am i doing?
what is my goal?
how will i acheive this goal?
who is involved?
how will i know when this situation has passed?

these 5 questions are at times very easy to answer and at times seem to open up all kinds of cans of worms. regardless i find them really effective for helping keep me closer to my center point and helping me achieve a bit more satisfaction with my actions, being a bit clearer on what i am doing (kind of).

I don't really like the whole magick deal,to me it seems to play into this whole idea of separation and inequality,and I believe that mindset is what we have to guard ourselves and our world against.The key is love,or warmth.there does seem to be a hierarchy that can be recognized both in the physical world and in the more ethereal planes. i don't think that necessities a lack of equality, but perhaps a difference in function. there seems to be a food chain that we must sustain in order to manage the organism (the intelligence(s) that we participate in, god(s), etc) and both the light and dark forces seem to have equal function. i think at some point you definitely need to choose allies and enemies in order to properly define your function, but choosing them without a response that tries to ignore their importance and necessity seems to be desirable. i think thats what you're saying right?

My point is,that these things can not be fought with feelings of fear or aggression,or secret rituals or even mantras.It must start in the heart,with compassionit seems by fighting something you are supporting its model or its existence. instead it seems 'opting out' of one of many permutations may be a way to live without acting as a support system for *some* things. and that seems to require the organization of thoughts something that different belief systems like magick, or yoga, or any ritualized act can supply.

enjoying this thread quite a bit!!

peace

daniel

09-12-2003, 03:49 AM

Here is another aspect of this question: Alliances with demons.

I am wondering right now, frankly, whether "black magic" is ever justified. I have been immersed in the most extraordinary book, "Voices of the First Day," by Robert Lawlor, on the Australian aboriginals. For the aboriginals, if you have been wronged, you seek retaliation - simple as that. Sorcery is one powerful method. In our culture, as we approach the end of the Kali Yuga, it seems that a lot of people are simply passive tools of negative forces, and sometimes these people get in one's way. In the last years, I have been royally fucked over by someone who has interfered with something very important to me - what I consider to be part of my "spiritual mission" - and really for no reason or fault of my own. He gave me his word and he has broken it. I really feel like I might have the right to seek ritual retaliation against him - I don't even necessarily want to do this, in a strange way it almost seems like a duty - or perhaps it is a demon whispering in my ear, pulling me away from the "light."

This stuff of course happens unconsciously all the time - in fact, our society is rife with black magik operating as all sorts of negative modalities, breaches of honour, and passive aggressive bullshit. Even Christ threw the moneychangers out of the temple - which means physically evicting them from the premises, perhaps grabbing them hard and hurting them in the process.

What do other people think about this?

sire_012

09-12-2003, 05:17 AM

daniel:
I am wondering right now, frankly, whether "black magic" is ever justified...What do other people think about this? i am always worrisome about psychic attacks because you are raising an antennae that will further imbed you into that other persons 'karmic' script further. however, you can't get rid of a tick through non-attachment alone. some properly placed salt and hot sulfur can go a long way in that case.

good luck...

Proteus

09-12-2003, 08:15 AM

Hi everyone: i'd like, with respect, to suggest that Sire misunderstands karma--or at least expresses a view of it that is not universal among Eastern traditions. Usually when folks speak of karma as though it were an external force that rewards goodness & punishes evil, they're translating the concept from its nontheistic (or polytheistic) Eastern origins into the sin-and-punishment terms of the Judeo-Christian West. When expressed in terms of the latter tradition, karma is seen (more or less) as the same thing as Judgment Day—only it works in the here and now. Thus, i hear folks say, if someone steals from someone else, they create bad karma for themselves and at some point something bad will happen to them that "pays them back." E.g. You steal someone's watch and sometime later your house catches on fire and destroys all your possessions.

While something more than simple coincidence may be at work when calamity befalls a thief, i don't think the theft and the house burning down are necessarily related karmicly (sp?). In my view, karma works on a much more subtle level--and one that doesn't presuppose the existence of a Cosmic Accountant who checks our karmic receivables against our karmic payables and makes sure that everyone's ledger sheet balances.

Sire speaks of a karmic script, which (he seems to suggest) constrains choice and determines what happens in each individual life. Maybe I’m just over-reacting to a semantic difference, but my understanding of karma is that it is best understood through the nontheistic terms of cause and effect. If you steal, you set in motion a variety of consequences which shape what happens in the next moment (and, in increasingly less direct ways, all future moments). Thus, stealing someone’s watch will, if nothing else, reinforce tendencies to take the path of least resistance and to see other things and other people only in terms of one’s own narrow self-interest. It’s what happens at this psychic/cognitive level that generates harmful karma—not the actions per se. There's already something amiss within the heart-mind of the thief for them to crave an object so much that they could even contemplate taking it without permission or payment. Whatever that something is can only be exacerbated by doing the deed itself.

These psychological tendencies will manifest in all kinds of decisions and actions that will, eventually, make the thief's life increasingly difficult. Those dealing with the thief will know that he or she are so deeply self-interested that they can’t be trusted with intimacy for long. Thus, the thief’s ability to form nourishing relationships will be inhibited. The thief’s tendency to take the path of least resistance and see everything only in terms of self-interest will hinder success at the workplace, something that is likely to hinder the thief’s ability to "make it" legitimately and further reinforce dishonest behavior. With few nourishing relationships and being frustrated at every turn from making it in legitimate ways, the thief creates an elaborate, mostly invisible hell for himself or herself--a hell that creates the conditions for further dishonesty and misery. That's karma. A simple, amoralcause-and-effect principle built into our space-time. When harmful karma manifests itself, it awakens some to the need for fundamental and positive change. Though others seem to quite resistant even to misery as a teaching tool.

But karma works in positive ways as well. And i'm clear that we can rewrite the karmic script at any time—though doing so isn't easy. The thief can wake up to his or her own unhealthy karmic condition and begin to make decisions and act in ways that create positive conditions in the next moment--and in all future moments. In my view, this is largely the point of mantras, ritual magick, prayer, chanting, etc. One uses these techniques to condition the mind and the present moment in positive ways so that future moments will manifest a healthier karmic condition. Anita speaks of fostering warmth and compassion in the heart. What an excellent way to work with the incontrovertible law of cause and effect!

All of which brings me to Daniel's question about whether taking vengeance against someone who has wronged him is a good idea--perhaps even a duty. Daniel, you have been a guide to me, we've broken bread together, you’ve created something singular and important by creating these discussion fora—something that all of us continually benefit from. In the spirit of friendship, i urge you NOT to retaliate.

If karma works out the way i've outlined above, you'd be creating the conditions for future suffering—yes, for your enemy, but also for who knows how many others. What about this person's family, lovers, friends, associates? Can any action that harms your enemy NOT have some effect--perhaps some unintended but nevertheless traumatic effect on folks that you have no beef against? And please consider the psychic and emotional consequences that any revenge will have upon you. What will you become as a result of acting to harm another? How will changes to your psyche effect your daughter, your mate, your friends, your writing and thinking, the members of this on-line community, your readership, etc., etc.?

This issue came up for me while reading BOTH. You were discussing Don Caesario and his circle and at some point in that chapter you also mentioned others who were feared as witches (?)/sorcerers (?). Don Caesario and his circle used their extraordinary powers for healing, for growing wise, even for generating new species of plant life. The sorcerers, I vaguely remember, used their powers (often for hire) to inflict illness and misfortune on others deemed to deserve it. At some other point, you related the story of a woman who had trained with a shaman for some time--until she had a vision when she was a jaguar prowling the forest. The shaman told her that she'd progressed to the point that witches and spirits of evil intent might now attack her. She stopped training and went back to America.

At the time, i remember wondering-—among other things—what would motivate someone who had experienced bliss beyond words, who'd seen the world with the cover ripped off and all the wires and switches exposed--what would motivate that person to use this knowledge and power to harm others? Wouldn't someone who discovered that bliss is the natural condition of the universe use their powers to help others have this realization so that all beings could eventually benefit? Obviously not, but i now begin to see that there comes a fork in the road along the shamanic path. One fork takes one ever deeper into the heart of shamanism—a selfless and often difficult life spent in service to others. The other fork takes one to a place where one mines the resources of the Otherworld for profit and advantage in this one. It's the fundamental choice of all spiritual traditions, really. Is this salvation about you or is it about everyone/everything? Clearly, i think its about everyone--even liars and assholes who, perhaps more than any others, need our compassion, our prayers, our best efforts to do them spiritual good.

In any case, i think intentionally harming others, whether it's for revenge or not, simply creates the conditions for further misery for our victims and ourselves. Is any wrong so terrible that it's worth becoming the thing we hate in order to revenge it? The day after the winter solstice in 2012, will the wrongs we've suffered matter? Will we be glad we got even with those that harmed us? Or will our ultimate transformation be hindered or prevented by the patterns we entrench between now and then?

i'm only sure that i don't know any of the answers; but, if you're going to act on a principle, you could do worse than act on the principle of causing no intentional harm.

You could do very much worse indeed.

dragonfly

09-12-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by daniel:
In the last years, I have been royally fucked over by someone who has interfered with something very important to me - what I consider to be part of my "spiritual mission" - and really for no reason or fault of my own. He gave me his word and he has broken it. I really feel like I might have the right to seek ritual retaliation against him ... Have you considered instead the possibility of radical forgiveness? Not the smarmy kind where you smugly tell the person that you forgive him to make yourself look saintly, but to quietly work on freeing yourself from this negative spell? How does your anger toward him affect you and those close to you? How would forgiving him change that?

As part of my own spiritual work, I've been grappling with feelings of enmity toward a couple of people in my life who have behaved unjustly and even cruelly toward me and someone I love. For years I contemplated some sort of retaliation. But at some point I finally managed to step back and examine the situation from a broader perspective, and I became disturbed by how much time and psychic energy I was devoting to these thoughts. To what end?

At that point it became clear to me that I had to take action -- not to retaliate, but to end the desire to retaliate. To break free from the dark spell my "enemies" had in essence put on me.

There's an esoteric practice involving "burning up" negative emotions. The September issue of The Sun (www.thesunmagazine.org) features an interview with Richard Smoley, the former editor of Gnosis, about esoteric Christianity in which he discusses the practice. This is what he says:

It's an extension of experiencing the emotions fully. One way of doing it is to focus on the bodily sensations that accompany your emotions. For example, I've noticed that when something shocks or upsets me, I often feel a kind of burning in my forearms -- not in the skin, but deeper, in the muscles and bone. I try to feel it consciously, without either hanging on to it or pushing it away. By no means does this make everything wonderful and sunshiny, but I have noticed that it keeps me from being thrown off center quite as much as I otherwise might have been.

Becoming fully aware of these sensations is a way of "burning them up," freeing the energy that would otherwise be tied up there. Some esoteric Christians have even said that this kind of burning provides energy that feeds inner development. According to them, the reason we should "love our enemies" is that they provide us with the occasion for this subtle combustion.

There's also an accompanying article by Smoley titled "True Forgiveness" that you might find interesting. It also touches on the theme of karma. Here's a passage:

...Christianity does offer a way out of the inexorable chain of karma. It must be accounted as the unique contribution of Jesus Christ to the spiritual life of humanity, since no teacher before him seems to have given this idea much attention. It is most succinctly expressed by a line of the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" (Matthew 6:12).

While this is usually taken as merely a high-minded sentiment, closer examination reveals how it can turn the law of karma upon its head. We sow as we reap; thus if we forgive, we are entitled to forgiveness in return. We will be acquitted of our shortcomings to the precise degree that we acquit others of theirs. Hence Christ instructs Peter to forgive not "until seven times, but until seventy times seven" (Matthew 18:22).

Of course, the whole point is that it is impossible for anyone to keep count to "seventy times seven." Forgiveness offers an escape from the monstrous quid pro quo that is the essence of the world. It frees us from the karmic ledger books entirely, since, if we extend forgiveness infinitely and unconditionally, we will receive it to the same degree. Forgiveness is a steadfast refusal to see wrongs, or, if they are seen, to remember them. It is the ultimate act of generosity, since it gives without keeping count, and it is the ultimate act of freedom, since it liberates those who practice it from bondage to past hurts or losses: by refusing to care about any supposed damage, we proclaim our immunity to it.

I'm no Christian, but I think this is the kind of spiritual wisdom that transcends sectarianism.

sire_012

09-12-2003, 09:36 AM

hey proteus, yeah i think you did misunderstand my explanation of my understanding of karma, and i also think i was a bit lazy with language. my present understanding of karma relates to a means of information transference with the goal ultimately to transfer an individuals source code in the cleanest possible manner, nominalizing noise, as the noise - or karma - seems to be cummulative... like a ball passing through a tube covered in sledge, the more times the ball hits the sides of the tube and picks up sledge the more prone it is to gather more.

i think in my second post where i said 'karmic' script i should have used the term 'karmadhumbra' (i *think*). if my brain is working right karmadhumbra is the role individuals play in each others karmic script, ie the reason you and i are hashing this out right now is because it is part of our karmadhumbra or the play of discovering and untying ourselves from the karmic wheel. hope we're doing it well! smile.gif

peace

b

Proteus

09-12-2003, 11:48 AM

Sire: i hope we're doing it well also!

Apologies for not reading you carefully before, but your second explanation actually clarifies for me what in your post didn't jibe with my own view.

You use the analogy of a ball in a sludge-filled tube--and the tendency of the ball to gather more sludge the greasier it gets. Yes, that's how many see karma. i don't, but i forgot to mention the key reason why not: there isn't any self/ball to gather sludge.

That which we call the self (i/me) isn't stable, permanent, or even possible to pin down for more than a moment. How can something so evanescent suffer the accretion of bad karma? The ball that passed through the tube this morning has vanished forever; the ball that passes through the tube now can choose whether or not to get dirty (or how dirty to get).

The notion that we are what we are and what we are continues to replicate and complicate itself is delusion. We are, to an astonishing extent, what we choose to be right now, this minute.

Don't know much about computers & so can't probably do your computer code analogy justice, but we can click from the Bullshit Artist program to the Truth-teller program any time we want to. All it takes is a decision and some patient persistence.

gone

09-12-2003, 02:32 PM

The advice here to avoid retaliation is certainly the way forward. As people we are all broken and our journey is one of healing. Anything which doesn’t heal, let alone does more harm, is the absence of journey. Simple, but often impossible to fulfil.

Ram Das’ comment about his ill-health, ‘if suffering is grace then I’ve been subject to some pretty heavy grace,’ also comes to mind.

I appreciate the idea of radical forgiveness, but I think this doesn’t exclude being tough on communicating to your perpetrator how hurt you feel. In this manner, ‘retaliation’ (read response) may be in the form of bringing the Other to an understanding of your hurt, not by inflicting hurt upon him but by displaying your own hurt to them with utter transparency.

The comment about Christ in the temple is an interesting one. I’m not so keen on the divine Christ, at one with the Father and the Spirit as Trinity – the “homousious” (of one thing). Christ is at his best when wrangling with his humanity and the scene in the temple is one such moment. Again, when Christ says to the Father, ‘why have you forsaken me?’ he speaks not so much upwards but downwards, to the people at the foot of the cross, namely us. I read it as a mantra of comradery. This wrangling is Christ’s journey, and our journey; it is part of our ‘divine spark.’

dragonfly

09-12-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by gelfer:
I appreciate the idea of radical forgiveness, but I think this doesn’t exclude being tough on communicating to your perpetrator how hurt you feel. If by "communicating" you mean talking about it, I would agree with you in certain instances, such as when someone isn't aware he inflicted hurt. But in cases where the hurt was administered quite intentionally (I'm thinking here of one of my own situations, where someone purposefully lashed out at me in hopes of inflicting pain, and succeeded wildly, and is well aware of this), I don't see what would be gained by talking about it. The person doesn't want to talk to me; to convince her to do so (or to write her a letter) would require me to devote more energy to a negative force in my life. And for what? To tell her what she already knows?

I've come to believe that the best solution to a problem like this, where someone aims to hurt you and succeeds, is to forgive. To do the hard work of transforming the negative energies into positive ones.

I've been influenced in this by Steiner. "If we wish to become esoteric students, we must train ourselves vigorously in the mood of devotion," he writes in How to Know Higher Worlds. "We must seek -- in all things around us, in all our experiences -- for what can arouse our admiration and respect. If I meet other people and criticize their weaknesses, I rob myself of higher cognitive power. But if I try to enter deeply and lovingly into another person's good qualities, I gather in that force."

hiosoy

09-12-2003, 03:45 PM

This is an important thread, anyways Proteus isn't the I you talk about what most people call the soul. Which is what many people (especially theosophists I think) say collects the karma, based on all the past events stored in the akashic records. I know these are just theories and I don't necessarily believe any of it, don't disbelieve it either. I think that's the general view most seers and psychics agree on though.

daniel

09-12-2003, 05:14 PM

Proteus,

According to a book on Dzogchen, there are two ways to look at karma: one is a heavy accumulation of blots that accrue from life to life which we drag with us like a chain. The other way is that karma is like darkness in a room: Turn on the light and the darkness vanishes. The light is enlightenment.

Anita

09-13-2003, 01:50 AM

Goodmorning!
On Karma,in my understanding,the slate can indeed be wiped clean,and the path goes through forgiveness...and it has to be forgiveness of oneself first,then it seems to sort of ripple outward....
I have come to believe that the core of what Jesus taught is true indeed,we have to come to a space where we "die"to ourself,and a new "I" is born,and this can only happen when we see ourselves for what we are and forgive ourselves,our rather,accept the forgiveness the universe bestows on us.
As for magick,there is no such thing as a freebie there,One of my personal "sayingsinmyhead" is
Thanksgiving Yes,manipulation No.It works pretty well in guarding my thoughts,and the conscious thought is where it starts,or at least where it comes to "my" attention..
I want y'all to know how much I appreciate the work y'all are doing with all of this "stuff",I feel that the work we do with our consciousness is soooo the key to getting out of this mess our collective selves have manifested over eons...Now is the time smile.gif
Love upon you,
Anita

Buzz

09-14-2003, 07:38 AM

Anita,
Due to my interest in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy (books and movies)I have also become very much interested in the nature of evil and human history prior to "history". I do not have access to his research, but Tolkien was probably the greatest folklorist of the 20th century. It would be interesting to read what he read to come up with those stories. I love the maps in the books. The "Shire" seems to be now in the English Channel. "Mordor" is at the bottom of the Mediterranean.

Daniel,
I am going to have to chime in with the good advise you have already received about retalitation. We live in a hell world that doesn't have to be like this. Our enemies, those who do harm to us, are probably doing more personal harm to themselves. A few years back I decided to take acid and test out a sorcery manuvere to destroy an enemy. By the time I was high enough to attack I had completely abandoned the idea. I saw my enemy as a dark ball, a sout-like substance covered the outer perimeter on his energy ball, that electro-magnetic energy body that surrounds our physical body, described by so many mystics. He had done so much harm to himself that I actually felt pity for him. He is dreaming the dream of hell and along with so many people has created hell here on Earth. I think that magic and our understanding of it is evolving along with everything else. Perhaps Aborigines and sorcerers around the world who have not experienced compassion and seen the global crisis for what it is are actually clueless about the real harm they do to the entire world. I think that figures like Buddha and Christ have had and are still having a positive influence on us. However, disembowing Indians if they don't accept Christ is going a bit too far.There are certain spirits that also teach us not to do harm. In one of Castenada's books he tells of Don Juans grandson telling him that Don Juan used to be a powerful and fearsome brujo. DJ took Peyote and quit his dark practice due to something taught to him by Mescalito. He lost the respect of many in his community, who interestingly enough, still greatly feared the man. It seems to me that the dark stuff always turns around to bit you in the ass anyway.

What did Mescalito teach? What is the understanding of nature and spirit as taught to us my Buddha, Christ and others? Why shouldn't we practice dark magic? Believe me, I have a limited knowledge of such things, but I'll let you in on what I know. "man is two men, one asleep in the light, the other awake in the darkness" (Kahil Gibran). Last week I listened in to Dreamland at Whitley Stribers Unknown Country. A fellow named Peter Novak discussed the lost secrets of death. Many world religions speak of us having several bodies all contained in the one. At death, all but two of them are doomed, as they are soley the property of this physical life. What of the other two? One is immortal, I believe the Egyptians called it the Ba. The other (the Ka) has needs and wants and wishes to stay with the immortal body upon death. Apparently the only way to keep them together when we die(and retain the experiences, emotions and memory we have aquired during life)is to have personal integrity, to live a life of understanding and compassion towards our fellow creatures. For most of us the Ka seperates from the Ba at death and is trapped here on Earth, along with the many other Ka's from previous lives. At some point in my life I've read a Lakota poem asking the Great Spirit to help us to prevent bringing shame to ourselves so that we may be free upon death. John Trudell states in a poem that "soul is whats left after they have eaten your spirit". If I'm not mistaken, Christ refered to a "second death". Christian theology believes spirits are trapped in the grave until the apocalypse. In one of Redmans books (of Celestine Prophecy fame)he talks of a realm (hell) where he witnessed ghosts relive highly charged emotional events of their life over and over again. Another idea discussed in this thread is Karma. For me these ideas and many others like them are explainable with this KA/BA idea and up to this time they have been a nuisance to my understanding. But the idea proposed here has served as a profound keystone in my arch of knowledge obtained over the last 30 plus years of adult life. By living a life dreaming of heaven we may transcend the cycle of unintended reincarnation and move on in our evolution. I have ordered Novaks book which goes into much greater depth. The book discusses how this idea has been lost in time yet was once common knowledge, and gives examples from ancient religions around the world.

I am also wondering whether or not the 2012 aligning with the galactic center is the true meaning of the Rapture, a 26,000 year (precession) Halloween which will free or clean the Ka's from the landscape of Earth.

I have a flu type virus as I write this and I hope it makes sense to you all. No misspelled words or ill-concieved ideas were harmed in the making of this post.

09-14-2003, 12:28 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by daniel:
[QB]Here is another aspect of this question: Alliances with demons.

Hi one and all,

An interesting and relevant thread, couldn't resist a comment...

Philosophically, I subscribe to living strategically (but don't often achieve it). This means, Daniel, that you ask yourself what your overriding aim is in life; and then how taking revenge on your tormentor will bring you nearer to your goal. There is no morality involved, except your own. Despite the best efforts of many, karma isn't really understood, and, as it is understood, it doesn't make much sense to me. We exist in a "system" with to us mostly unknown and possibly unknowable laws. All that karma means to me is that ANY action will elicit some kind of response - but this response is most definitely not governed by our concepts of morality. Hence, probably, the idea of detachment as the only goal worth pursuing - it alone can get you out of the clutches of an impersonal and utterly indifferent "system". "Good" and "evil" are merely aspects of the duality of our known universe, and not ultimate states of being. Now we know that in this place our actions do have certain relatively predictable consequences. If you retaliate, Daniel, can you predict the consequences? Will striking back resolve the issue? If you truly can see no downside, then go ahead. But ask yourself whether it may be strategically better for you to work on removing the vulnerability in you which allowed this person to "royally fuck you over". And if there is no prospect of your attaining protection from this person, and they may strike again, perhaps you "have to do what a man has to do" in order to protect yourself... no morality involved...and whatever you do, hope it works out...

Briefly back to karma - I tend to agree with much of what young Sire wrote. But it seems to me that no matter how low and peaceful a profile you want to keep, you still have to engage in an almighty battle to attain detachment...

dragonfly

09-14-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Em:
All that karma means to me is that ANY action will elicit some kind of response - but this response is most definitely not governed by our concepts of morality. I would agree with this. Experience leads me to believe in what some pagans call the "threefold law," which holds that whatever we put out into the world comes back to us several times over. The law is value-neutral: If we put out good we get back good, and if we put out bad we increase suffering, including our own.

Anita

09-15-2003, 09:22 AM

On the question of Karma,Is it possible that Christ did indeed bring forgiveness into the world?It would certainly go into the thing in the gnostic gospels about NOT bringing peace onto the world but strife?As in,people knew the cause and effect route pretty well,and then wham!Here is this idea about transformation and thereby sort of bypassing a lot of the effect stuff?
Love,
A

daniel

09-15-2003, 12:58 PM

For another perspective on retaliation vs. forgiveness, how about the Bhagavad Gita? Arjuna does not want to fight but Krisna explains that it is his duty to fight because human misdeeds should not be left to the Gods to resolve but should be answered by human actions. Arjuna is also shown the unity of vicims and victors, but this does not mean the battle is not necessary at the time.

sidecross

09-16-2003, 04:26 AM

The use of religious texts has long been used for advocating violence. Whether it is from the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible, or the Koran such texts have caused more harm than good clothed in the virtue of restitution.

willoweyes

09-16-2003, 05:28 AM

a lovely thread, exposing us to our humanity, if we could but see. I am reminded of the film Zardoz--the tranquil deadly dull harmony of eternity exploded by life's raw vigor. We are fooling ourselves if we believe cooing an Om will encapsulate our animal. Life is in truth brutally short, with little hope of change--Proteus is a god! We are godlike only in our ambition, which crashes and breaks upon the shores of necessity. What a windowpane your post is EM--morality is survival, and the survival of our tribe.

Buzz

09-16-2003, 05:46 AM

I agree with sidecross. Gods and goddesses often tempt us for their own amusement. Remember also that religious texts often have political goals in mind. And they are written by humans, not gods.

daniel

09-16-2003, 05:53 AM

I think that many of you are not fully considering the dynamic nature of human reality. I agree, obviously, with the basic concept of "forgiveness," turning the other cheek, etc. However, to bring up an old canard, I think I would have quite properly fought in Europe against Hitler, and would've killed him if given the chance.

There is real wisdom contained in certain ancient texts - wisdom that is almost beyond the human, to the point where I am not convinced a human, exactly, wrote the Bhagavad Gita, or the Tao or the I Ching (especially with the I Ching when you recognize it is a 64 part binary system identical to the DNA code, which suggests it is an underlying structural system, put into place I would say by higher intelligences. I would say the same for the fascinating relationship between the Tree of Life in the Kabala and the Mandelbrot Set).

Accepting shamanism means getting a bit beyond our narrow focus on the human realm - we are intercessors between upper and lower, receivers and transmuters and transmuters of cosmic energies. I don't think we can simply fall into a posture of total "forgiveness." That to me is weak.

Buzz

09-16-2003, 05:53 AM

Anita,
Buddha was in the world 500 years before Christ. A lot of scholars now believe that his teachings had disseminated around the known world (Europe/Asia) by the time of Christ. Who knows how many other wise people and their teachings have been lost in time prior to Christ and the Buddha?

daniel

09-16-2003, 05:57 AM

Part of the answer in the Bhagavad Gita and elsewhere is to learn how to act fully in the human realm, doing what is necessary (even if it is warfare) while maintaining equanimity and proper detachment.

This is similar to what Buddhist teachings say about those who have attained liberation: They can perform all kinds of actions that would be disaster for a normal person without attracting any karmic strain. They can do this because they are free, and therefore operating according to higher laws.

Buzz

09-16-2003, 06:26 AM

Daniel,
I'm not suggesting that we should never react when threatened. And I probably would have been there with you in WWII.
I must admit that I don't know the nature of the situation with the person who screwed you over.
In the movie (and perhaps the book, which I haven't read) "Dances with Wolves", the Kevin Costner character states (after helping save the village against attackers), "it was hard to know how to feel. I'd never been in a battle like this one. There was no dark political objective. This was not a fight for territory or riches or to make men free. It had been fought to protect the food stores that would see us through the winter. To protect the lives of women and children and loved ones only a few feet away".

Certainly people have changed the Bible over time, misinterpreted, deliberate or not. The committee of Nicea was very selective in the texts they chose to include in the Bible. We do not know exactly what Jesus said, but after you have been down a certain path for so long, you know or think you know. We are only human, but perhaps once the gods were also.
I'm wondering if you have read Tom Robbins novel, "Fierce Invalids Home From Hot Climates"?
He toys with the question of whether the "Good" gods are any better than the "Bad" gods. And brings up the question of the "Neutral" gods and that maybe we should be following them.

sire_012

09-16-2003, 07:28 AM

couldn't conciousness expansion be viewed as a kind of battle against forces that may be conciously, or not, acting towards the ends of repression? i would say, by the powers wanting to uphold a culture of saggy eyed drones, it most certainly could be and is. is it then improper to view your life and make a decision based upon what you feel clearly is in your best interest of survival, or should we simply accept what is fed to us interminably and simply be as an act of not fighting anything?

i don't know that i have the answer to this. my own persuasion has led me to fight certain currents and uphold others, and to constantly struggle with the questions that those decisions bring up. the best moderating salve i have been able to produce from that exchange has been to simply do what i felt was best at the time and only make decisions i felt, in my short sided concious mind, i could live with and navigate through.

its such a strange life, full of complexities, it seems the best advice you can give anyone is to trust themselves and wish them the best of luck in that process.

b

sidecross

09-16-2003, 07:44 AM

Again the Hitler and WWll analogy and the question of "what you would do" pokes its head up.

Any reading of the news will show only the names of the characters have changed and that fascism and its twin, fighting with god on its side, have never gone away. Fighting in the name of "whatever" will always produce death and sorrow. This is what feeds the beast of retribution.

Some have argued that the human may be "hardwired" to function in groups of 45 or smaller. Perhaps the advent of domestication of animals and the invention of agriculture is more the villain than any ideology it brought forth.

dragonfly

09-16-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by daniel:
...I think I would have quite properly fought in Europe against Hitler, and would've killed him if given the chance.So why is it only Hitler you're willing to fight? Evil was not wiped out when Hitler died. You have the chance to go and fight against other manifestations of evil, so why aren't you out there fighting?

Actually, I would argue that you are. There are different ways to fight evil, and I see the work you're doing as a way of battling the forces of darkness. You inspire people to examine themselves spiritually, to ponder "higher" worlds, and that is a way of fighting evil.

You seem to equate forgiveness with passivity. But I don't think they're necessarily the same thing. Forgiveness is a very active thing. It's damn hard work.

Forgiveness also is not forgetting, justifying, excusing or condoning. And it's something we give to other people, not to systems of oppression, to evil itself. We forgive the bad in other people because it's in us, too. You speak of wanting to take revenge on someone who wronged you. Have you ever wronged anyone? Do you want someone to take revenge against you? See how it turns into an ugly cycle? Do you really want to be caught up in that?

Back to the Hitler analogy ... Yes, Hitler was vanquished in World War II. But was the evil he wrought in the world vanquished?

Look at what happened to some of Hitler's Jewish victims. Look at what they have gone on to wrought in Israel. In many ways they are replicating the oppression they suffered. How much of that is because they are holding on to anger? Because they are unable to forgive?

I'm not saying that their anger isn't justified. Of course it is, just like the anger of my relatives who were exiled to Siberia by Stalin is justified. But at some point one has to move beyond that anger to function in a healthy manner.

Have you read much Viktor Frankl, the psychiatrist imprisoned by the Nazis? He has some interesting thoughts to offer this discussion. Reflecting on the lives of Drs. Furst and Rosenberg from his time in the concentration camp, Frankl admired their attitudes of forgiveness.

“I was able to talk with both of them in the camp before they died there," Frankl said in a 1949 speech delivered to the Society of Physicians in Vienna. "And in their last words there was not a single word of hate, only words of longing came from their lips and words of forgiveness, because what they hated was not human beings — a person must be able to forgive humans — but what they hated and what we all hate was the system, the system which brought some men to guilt and which brought others to death.”

Woodpecker

09-16-2003, 08:56 AM

Great quote from Victor Frankl. It's like Jesus said: "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Here in Vienna, my wife just discovered that the people who lived across the hall from where we live now were a young Jewish couple. They fled in 1938 to Antwerp, which was then taken by the Nazis, and they were killed in Auschwitz. Julius and Edith Brandes. She was 26 at the time.

A coincidence: The owner of this building in those days was Fanny Horowitz, who happened to share a last name and some genes with me. Fanny presumably had to sell the place in a hurry and at a fraction of its value in her effort to make it out of Vienna alive in '38. She did survive the war; we're not sure where.

(Nearly all Horowitzes, including Vladimir Horowitz, Winona Ryder, Ad Rock, Michael Landon and Curly and Moe Howard, are descendents of the chief rabbi of Prague in the first decades of the 16th century, who had previously lived in a nearby town called Horovice, hence the name.)

Re: Auschwitz. The MAPS website mentions a book by an Israeli writer, an Auschwitz surviver. They're trying to scrape together some money to reprint it. He took LSD in the '70s and, among other things, "saw" the whole life history of a Nazi man who had tortured him. Seeing that, he could not blame him anymore. Because the whole thing was completely, sadly human, all too personal. Instant, total forgiveness. Love the sinner; be sad about the evil that leads to the sin.

Buzz's mention of good, evil and neutral gods reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons. Anyone else used to play here? Druids were neutral, as an inflexible rule.

Proteus mentions Cesario. There's an ongoing debate about yage and shamanism in the Secoya communities. The negative that people perceive is that it's too powerful and it's very tempting and all too easy for people to abuse that power.

Re: demons. I was in a Jewish mysticism class once. The teacher told us that King Solomon used to bind them. That was his good deed as a magician, to preserve and protect human lives. 3 weeks later I was at Cesario's place. C was explaining the functions of the shaman. "We bind demons," he said.

What would it mean to bind demons?

[ September 16, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

Buzz

09-16-2003, 01:12 PM

I really like this thread. Believe me, I'm no saint, nor the worst person in the world. I'm just getting over some things done to me that have practically ruined my career, and for no good reason.

Daniel, there may be harmless but effective ways to get a message across. For me, after 5 years, an opportunity has arisen to "get even". As a visual artist I can render lifesize figures out of clay that look exactly like someone. A group of artists that I'm associated with is having an exhibit at the university where I was denied a tenure position that I deserved after 8 adjunct years of doing their shit work. I plan to model a figure of "my enemy" as the devil with words describing all of the underhanded, nasty things this guy has done to protect his studio area from any intruders and other stories will be told of what he has done to other professors (and they have never found out). No harm will be done, except to embarrass the hell out of him in front of collegues and students. As a matter of fact, Woodpecker, you may have given me the title -"Binding the Demon", as well as some imagery.

The truth is that I am moving on now and may not even spend the time to do it but as artists, we have mighty tools at our disposal.

When I got off-line earlier today I went back to the book I am reading, "Waking Up in Time" by Peter Russell. A great read, by the way. I picked up the book turning the page to the next chapter and the following poem and statement were staring me in the face. As they are appropriate to this discussion I include them here.

Toy-bewitched
Made blind by lusts, disinherited of soul,
No common centre Man, no common sire
Knoweth! A sordid solitary thing
Mid countless brethen with a lonely heart
Through courts and cities the smooth savage roams,
Feeling himself, his own low self, the whole;
When he by sacred sympathy might make
The Whole one Self! Self that no alien knows,
Self, far diffused as fancy's wing can travel!
Self, spreading still! Oblivious of its own
Yet all of all possessing! This is Faith!
This is the Messiah's destined victory!
Samuel Coleridge, Religious Musings

and:

This we know - earth does not belong to man, man
belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of earth. Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.
Chief Seattle

sidecross

09-16-2003, 02:42 PM

Buzz has shown an understanding of the great challenge we all face in our daily life. Some are quite dramatic while others may seem less so to others. In any case, the path we choose has the same relevance as the quote by Lawrence Lorenz concerning chaos theory: "Does the flap of a butterfly's wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas?"

I have read Peter Russell's The White Hole in Time: Our Future Evolution and the Meaning of Now, as well as the Chief Seattle's remarkable speech. I would recommend both as a foundation to an understanding of who we may think we are and where we may be.

[ September 16, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: sidecross ]

daniel

09-16-2003, 05:00 PM

My situation got resolved for the moment without any weird mojo. I confronted the person directly, during a telephone conversation, reminded them of the promises they had made to me and then completely lost my temper, yelling. "Are you a man of your word, or are you a man of shit?" My girlfriend, listening, thought I had gone completely mad. But it seems to have worked: The person in question has once again promised to do what we set out to do. We will see if he keeps to his word this time. I suspect he will. Although dramatic and probably dangerous, I think this was the only way for me to handle this situation (with Mars in ascendance): Directly and to the point. I don't know what I would have done if he had reneged. Probably nothing...

Buzz:
As for God learning on the job, a great essay on the subject is Carl Jung's "God's Answer to Job." Definitely the Demiurge of the Old Testament makes a lot of judgment errors - but He learns, with humanity as His reflecting mirror. This is also very different I would say than the Gods of the mythological era (Hindu or Greek) who definitely belong to the "God Realm" as the Tibetan Book of the Dead define it: Trapped in their own magnificence, unable to achieve enlightenment. This perhaps calls to mind the Hegelian dialectic of the Master - Slave: In that dialectic, the Slave is ultimately in the better position, as he has the possibility of achieving full consciousness, while the Master never can. So in that one sense a human is greater than a God.

Woodpecker: I think I understand what it means to bind a demon (or Djinn in the Islamic tradition). I think that is what the DPT story in my book was ultimately about. When you have met the Demon and integrated its perspective into your own, it strengthens and changes you. I don't yearn to do it again, but I think I get it.

daniel

09-16-2003, 08:31 PM

Woodpecker,

More thoughts... Caesarop's comment is very interesting considering the connection the UdV claims between King Solomon and ayahuasca.

As for demons, there are different types. Check out the Steiner lecture in the e-library on "Lucifer and Ahriman." Then there are also the entire Qliphotic range and the Lovecraftian "Old Ones." The British warlock Kenneth Grant has been doing bizarrely detailed work seeking to document/literalize all the Qliphotic levels, as in his book Nightside of Eden. When I looked at it I felt both attracted and queasily repulsed. I still have no idea if it is a violent or pointless or even regressive enterprise. I suppose these qliphotic demons could be seen as the "wrathful form" of positive and angelic energies, as in the Tibetan tradition. I don't feel Grant makes that argument, however. He is clearly attracted and seduced by the Qliphotic.

Sense I had from my DPT demon: "Luciferic" demons are evolving spiritual beings like we ourselves, powerful forms of consciousness trapped in supersensible bodies and vast hierarchies or "chains." Steiner says they are in some ways superhuman compared to us and in other ways below us because we chose a different path of evolution that is more difficult and slower. The Luciferic spirits can also be seen as "fallen angels" who chose to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the cosmic balance. Steiner says at the present state of the Earth these entities cannot take physical human bodies - they are too advanced - so they work through alliances with individual humans. These beings move in time differently than we do I think - they can arrange blocks of time in different ways, move things about, hence all the synchronicities associated with Crowley and Crowley followers and etc. If they are not pressed into service for a higher purpose, they pull their hosts down into debauch, arrogance, glamour, etc.

The Ahrimanic demons are worse, yet can also be worked with. I see the "Greys" as Ahrimanic goblins, Perhaps someone like Whitley Streiber is finding a way to work with their energies and transmuting it positively. The famous Betty Andriessen story sounds similar to this.

Goblins are Elementals - and according to Steiner, GAreth Knight and others it is the task of humanity to redeem the Elementals by recognizing, working with, and liberating them. Without us, they are trapped and cannot evolve themselves and do eventually die.

sidecross

09-17-2003, 04:33 AM

The means to an end is a constant dilemma. The Dalai Lama was quoted today in the NYT saying the following:

"Unfortunately, sometimes our Chinese brothers and sisters
need a little pressure," he said, adding: "And basically I
feel pressure is not right. The friendly manner, the
compassionate way, to educate them, explain to them and
persuade them, that's the proper way."

The full text of the article follows:

The Dalai Lama on Tour, an Exile on Main Street

September 17, 2003
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN and DANIEL J. WAKIN

On his 15th trip to the United States, the Dalai Lama has
been met by sold-out crowds from coast to coast. Tickets to
his events have been bid up on eBay. He filled Davies
Symphony Hall in San Francisco, and on Sept. 11 packed
Washington National Cathedral, as 3,000 more people
listened outside on the lawn. Scalpers did brisk business
outside the basketball arena in Boston last Sunday selling
last-minute tickets.

As he begins the first of nine days of events in New York,
this son of Tibetan peasants is at the high point of his
global fame as a religious leader, head of state, pop icon,
multimedia phenomenon and ascetic Buddhist superstar.

The Dalai Lama has always drawn a small circle of devotees
in this country, but the huge turnouts on this trip are
testimony to a growing American fascination with Buddhist
practices and the search for genuine spiritual heroes who
profess nonviolence in an era of religious strife and
disillusionment.

"I think I'm looking for something; I don't know quite
what," said Vivian de Mello, of Providence, R.I., who is
Catholic. Ms. de Mello paid $60 for a ticket in Boston on
Sunday in what she called her quest to find a new religion.

"He makes me feel good, and I need that right now," said
Michelle Caron, a financial controller from Medford, Mass.,
as she descended the stadium stairs after the event. "Just
his aura, and the simplicity."

The Dalai Lama's popularity also owes something to the
presence of his beatific visage on hundreds of books and
videos, some which have recently crossed over to the
mainstream market from religious and New Age audiences.
One, "The Art of Happiness," sold more than 1.2 million
copies and was on The New York Times best-seller list for
nearly two years.

There are more than 300 listings for Dalai Lama books on
Amazon.com, said Lynn Garrett, religion editor of
Publishers Weekly, though some are different editions of
the same book.

"He is regarded as a religious voice, but he definitely
crosses over into self-help," Ms. Garrett said.

As Tibet's leader in exile, the Dalai Lama is primarily
concerned with pressing for Tibetan autonomy from Chinese
rule. Some supporters say they worry that mass marketing of
his image has diluted his message, but others say his
celebrity status has only broadened the cause of Tibetan
freedom as well as the appeal of Buddhism.

Among Tibetans and their supporters, the Dalai Lama's
visibility is prompting some controversy, said Matthew
Wiener, director of programming at the Interfaith Center of
New York and its Buddhism analyst.

"That is a consistent internal debate and question about
the more trendy the Dalai Lama gets, how does that affect
cause of Tibetan freedom, and how does it affect the
Buddhist message of compassion," Mr. Weiner said.

The Dalai Lama has lent his name to so many books and
projects, said Yodon Thonden, executive director of the
Isdell Foundation, which supports Tibetan causes, that "in
some ways it dilutes the impact of his presence."

Nevertheless, Ms. Thonden said, his high profile is
ultimately beneficial for the Tibetan cause.

The Dalai Lama gives permission to almost every request to
use his name or likeness, many who know him say.

"He'll give a talk and someone will ask him if they can put
it in a book, and he almost always says yes," said Amy B.
Hertz, who as executive editor of Riverhead Books has
published three recent Dalai Lama books, including "The Art
of Happiness."

Mr. Wiener said the Dalai Lama had made a conscious
decision to be highly public, partly motivated by a sense
among Tibetans that their history of isolation left them
vulnerable to the Chinese takeover.

"The reverse of that is to say, `Hey, we have to get
publicity, we have to get the word out about our problems,'
" Mr. Wiener said. "The Dalai Lama's extroverted response
is in large part the result of thinking they got it wrong."

Advances and any profits from the books are usually divided
between the authors and the Tibetan government-in-exile,
Ms. Hertz said.

The Dalai Lama was born Lhamo Thondup to peasants in
northeastern Tibet. At age 2, he was recognized as the
reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama and taken to the
Tibetan capital, Lhasa, to be educated by Buddhist scholars
and monks. He was enthroned in 1940, at the age of 5. Ten
years later, China began its invasion of Tibet, and when
China suppressed an uprising of Tibetans in 1959, the Dalai
Lama fled to India. He has lived ever since in Dharamsala
and has never been allowed by the Chinese to return to his
native country.

His travels across the globe have helped him develop a
mastery of the media event. At a news conference yesterday
to start his visit in New York, he took the stage at an
auditorium at the Guggenheim Museum, and, after a tempest
of camera flashes, he asked the photographers to stop
taking pictures. He peered leisurely into the audience and
greeted familiar faces one by one. Then, with a broad
smile, he told the photographers to return to work. "Well,
yes, flash!"

Tickets for teaching sessions at the Beacon Theater in
Manhattan have long since sold out - at $400 each, or
$1,200 and $3,000 for V.I.P.'s and big donors. The steep
prices are to defray the cost of advertising and producing
the Dalai Lama's appearance this Sunday in Central Park,
said Josh Baran, a publicist for the Dalai Lama's New York
visit.

The Dalai Lama said recent contacts between Tibetans and
Beijing were a "good start," and described a delicately
balanced approach to China. He said he had always stressed
that China should not be isolated and that issues of human
rights, democracy and freedom should be raised in a
"friendly atmosphere."

In recent years, China has poured money into Tibet and
encouraged ethnic Chinese to settle there, bringing
economic growth but also questions about the future of
Tibetan culture.

"Unfortunately, sometimes our Chinese brothers and sisters
need a little pressure," he said, adding: "And basically I
feel pressure is not right. The friendly manner, the
compassionate way, to educate them, explain to them and
persuade them, that's the proper way."

He did not always draw such attention. The Dalai Lama first
came to the United States in an era of widespread fear of
new religions and dangerous cults.

Jeffrey Hopkins, a professor of Tibetan Buddhist studies at
the University of Virginia who served as the Dalai Lama's
interpreter from 1979 to 1989, said: "Twenty-five years
ago, almost all the venues were small, people didn't know
who he was, they had no idea where Tibet was, and they
didn't know what religion to associate with him. They
thought he might have been some far-out guru who maybe had
selfish purposes."

But as his popularity has grown, some Buddhist leaders have
expressed concern about what they call "bookstore
Buddhists" who buy his latest releases and adopt Asian
trappings without delving deeply into Buddhist teachings.

"We need to adopt the wisdom practice," said Surya Das, a
widely known American lama, "not the Asian accouterments."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/17/national/17LAMA.html?ex=1064811821&ei=1&en=19d37f46dcb21291

TarNutz

09-17-2003, 05:42 AM

Wow, great thread. Been busy re-exploring the woods of my childhood and getting poison ivy, so haven't had a chance to keep up for a while. But I'm back - with a vengeance!

Regarding the magick, Anita: it's not so much about "doing a secret ritual" to fix your problems outright. It's more of a life-perspective that gives you the tools to make the changes yourself. The most important tool for a Mage is her Worldview/Selfview, the "map" and "blueprints" for the world, oneself, and how those two relate. Having a map doesn't necessarily mean that it always matches the terrain: the most accurate map is developed by comparing maps to other maps as well as checking the terrain out yourself. Often, YMMV, so it's good to do personal exploration.

As far as the "demons" go, you're right: some aren't as internal as you'd think. But the ones most important for us to "fight" individually are the ones closest to us, the ones we internalize and identify with. There was a really neat poem written by a Chaote (whose name I cannot recall) called "Liber Boomerang" - I present it here.

A God ignored is a Demon born.
Think you to hypertrophy some Selves at the expense of others?
That which is denied gains power, and seeks strange and unexpected forms of manifestation.
Deny Death and other forms of Suicide will arise.
Deny Sex and bizarre forms of its expression will haunt you.
Deny Love and absurd sentimentalities will disable you.
Deny Aggression only to stare eventually at the bloody Knife in your shaking hand.
Deny honest Fear and Desire only to create senseless neuroticism and avarice.
Deny Laughter and the world laughs at you.
Deny Magick only to become a confused robot, inexplicable even unto yourself.

Whew! Each of those lines correlates to a part of Peter Carroll's Eightfold Theory, a kind of road-map of desire. Each desire comes with a paired opposite: Death and Sex; Love and Aggression; Fear and Desire (sometimes Work and Play); Laughter and Magick. The idea is that unbalanced, uncontrolled desires can seriously ruin your day, so understanding them is the key to eliminating confusion. A demon's only a demon if it's not doing what it's supposed to. Carroll goes so far as to describe each of those desires as a seperate "Self", ruled by the "High Self" of Magick or "Octarine" (he uses colors to describe the desires).

Woodpecker: Been a D&D player nearly all my life. *grinz* Original D&D, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Editions. There's a neat thing about Role Playing Games: they all act as models for reality, and are useful in de-constructing it. For personal illumination, I recommend GURPS (Generic Universal Role-Playing System) by Steve Jackson Games. It's cumbersome to play sometimes, but it's excellent for illumination due to the complexity of character creation. I find it extremely magickal to create a character of one's self, even if you have no intention of playing that character in an imaginary setting. It acts as a sort of inventory of strengths and a checklist of weaknesses that one can improve upon. Be honest!

Also, if you're interested in seeing where you fit in the old AD&D alignment system, check this link:

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/gp/align.html

I happen to be Chaotic Neutral, BTW, with leanings towards Good. Thus, I'm working on getting more organized.

As far as Black Magick goes, I think the term is a little overwrought. "Black" to me means Death Magick; you can apply it internally or externally. Internally, it takes the form of so-called "Chod Rites" where you gain access to the wisdom and knowledge of the Death-Self. This is very useful in healing, divination, and what have you. Externally, it takes the form of an Entropy Rite, where you send auto-destructive information to the target.

A note on this: it's often counter-productive to go around tossing Black Magick for the WRONG REASONS. Before doing so, ask yourself two questions. Will I feel guilty if something horrible actually happens to the person I'm cursing? Am I living in a glass house? Be careful not to be a hypocrite when you're doing this: it's kind of like standing in the backwash of a bazooka: you'll get cooked! If your answer to either of the aforementioned questions is "Yes" or even "Maybe", you'd be better off using a little Red Magick for intimidation (should be practiced openly) than trying for outright destruction.

Most modern religions would condemn me for what I'm saying, but sometimes people are too dangerous to be allowed to live. We all have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our loved ones. While we may not like to admit it, if forced to choose between them, the lives of enemies and even strangers are forfiet to those of our loved ones. You may feel shitty about causing someone's death; but as they say, "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six". In life, sometimes you have to make hard decisions and live with them afterwards. In the words of Lao Tzu, the Master "Enters the battlefield with great sorrow and compassion, as if attending a funeral". Be considerate with your negativity, and use it sparingly.

Daniel: sounds like you got the Red Gnosis down pat there. Remember that wolves lose their teeth but not their nature... keep an eye on this one if it's important. My gut says let him go after it's done: probably not worth it on the long term.

I'm not sure how much good it does to revive old images of supernatural entities from various mythos except as a focus for specific acts and as a guideline for your own personal Demonology. I tend to prefer more generic, universal spirits and totems like Coyote and Cockroach for workings. It seems the more specific you get, the more the individual thoughtform demands your energies and belief, like an annoying ex-girlfriend who won't stop calling.

Just my two cents. Keep your feet on the ground and your head in the clouds!

P-Tar

gone

09-17-2003, 09:40 AM

Daniel, that made me chuckle. A wise man once said, ‘Are you a man of your word or are you a man of shit.’ I guess it has a certain ring.

Of course, the back-end retaliation to this guy would have been this discussion. No doubt any acquaintance of yours will be a sleeper on this board, gathering information, assuming there’s a board-context you and a phone-context you. I certainly monitor the online presence of people I know – I can’t be the only one to do this and I’m sure it’s only *slightly* weird.

Hence the battles with demons interface – the magic of online information. There’s a certain ritual to the Googling. I’m just reading Gibson’s ‘Pattern Recognition’ and stuff like, ‘Google Damien and you will find… Google Cayce and you will find…’ sounds like some kind of spell. Google as portal, not so much in the new sense, but the old.

The odd thing about online information as part of a ‘magical weaponry’ is that is has a two- or manifold direction about it. Were you to use some other kind of device - a dummy, hair or whatever, you’re looking at a one-direction spell, inasmuch as awareness of the spell, at least. Online information as magical tool has the unique aspect of being spun by various weavers. Information about me, for example, will be spun by me, maybe again by others and then adopted by the spell-caster/information gatherer. Anonymity is not as evasive as you might think. By presenting a certain amount of information I might have more control over the Me that radiates online than if I gave no information at all, the result of which would be a messy/equally valid interpretation of anyone bothered enough to care (the only real reading of a given, according to popular theory). Luckily no one cares enough about me to bother spreading misinformation, so this keeps things simple.

There’s no great importance to this, but a nice image – that prayers tapped into Google fly into cyberspace like prayer-flags in the wind or incense on the breeze.

Woodpecker

09-19-2003, 04:49 AM

TarNutz, I found much of the D&D system weirdly realistic in retrospect when I got into the shamanic thing. For example, a tsentsak or chontapalo is a magic missile, a first level magic user spell. And then of course there's all the stuff about gods and spirits.

When I discovered the game at age 12 I immediately identified with the alignment of Chaotic Good. Later dreamt once that my stepfather was accusing me of being Neutral; I walked away and entered a druidic temple where baby bears were walking upside down on the domed ceiling.

During an aya ceremony once I seemed to sense the presence of brown dragons, which seemed odd even at the time, because they're not even from ancient mythology, just imagined by Gary Gygax and his ilk.

About 10 years ago I was trying to write something about drow, and how they're small and black like words, and in fact drow is word backwards.

And dreamt recently, certainly under the influence of this thread, that a pair of very advanced magical monks instructed me to write about balrogs ("Type IV demons," yes?) and about Tiamat (the Chaotic Evil dragon queen and primordial sea mother in Mesopotamian myth). Which I'm only doing right now.... Not sure why or what else I sould do, but the monks seemed to think it'd be a good idea.

Halfglass

09-19-2003, 12:05 PM

Hey all. My take. I'm not given to much demon talk. I suspect, from my dealings over There, that much of what is encountered may very well be human--that is the dead specifically. I was probed by an Other that later tured out to be a black guy living in an "apartment" down in a labyrinthine "academy". This is my trip mind you--I understand we're all questing here. But for me, I'm not going to convince myself of demons because of their long history...a history that is a part of the endlessly self-validating belief systems we have inherited. There is cetainly Other.And there is tecnology Behind,and, I think a purpose. There are many ways to "prove" things to one's self. My belief in a purpose is from much observation with psychedelics of course, but recently I had a lucid dream of a friend who died in August. She had her face from this world but skewed somehow. She smiled and was taking in the sight of me for a long moment. I went to speak and she said, "It's not what you think shaman-boy!" and giggled. I said: "What do you do there?" She only smiled and her face turned to a wall like stone and I understood she had been "transformed"--it was her but not. Anyway whats done is done (being born) so I think I'm gonna take the time to "study" this world and That. Demons be damned. Perhaps I am a demon?

[ September 19, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

Woodpecker

09-19-2003, 10:14 PM

Nice riff.

Existence seems to be so much about transformation, as you note re: your deceased friend. And look at the concept of a demon. If fifteen people post here on the thread, there are at least fifteen concepts of what a demon is. All comprehensible, and all somehow evolving, none of them holding still.

The word itself comes from Greek "daimon," which just means a spirit. Kind of like "devil," which comes from Sanskrit or Indo-Eurpean "deva," or nature spirit.

The comparable Secoya term is "wati," a spirit or demon. My incomprehension of the Secoya language prevented me from understanding all but tiny fragments of Cesario's songs, but one phrase I remember was "Wati Bai," the Wati People. Not sure if I'm reading too much into it, but with him, it was always "Yai Bai," "Matemo Bai," "Wakara Bai," in his songs--not jaguars but Jaguar People, not angels but Sky People, not ibises but Ibis People. I.e., it's all people, not only us humans.

Buzz

09-20-2003, 05:03 AM

Reflecting back on the discussion of aggressive action or retribution against an enemy. A lot has been said here. Here's my final thought on the subject.
For some reason I imagined Daniel planned to somehow horribly kill or maim the individual in question. However, looking back that is probably not the case. Probably some evil thought in my own mind.
Some of you, no doubt, are familiar with the Toltec religion, if one can call it that. I am in dismay over the nagual civil war that seems to be going on. Will the real nagual please stand up? Whoever, whatever her designation is or isn't in her second book Meryln Tunneshende gives an example of how Dona Soledad, formally of Carlos Castenada's books, uses her power as a witch. A young Indian woman came to Soledad seeking help. The womans husband beat her, was a drunk and on top of that the woman suspected he was sexually abusing their daughter. She visited the witch to see if she could help her. As a Christian she was quite reluctant to go to her for she feared that Soledad would utilize the Devil. After Soledad consoled her that was not her method she explained that she would visit her husband in dreams and "show him things". And at some point he would simply walk away and they would never have to fear him again. Sounds like a great method, but how many of us have a resource like Soledad?

Even though I have throughly enjoyed this subject we have strayed far away from original question about wars with goblins and such. I'm intrigued with this subject also. At some time in the distant past there were several humanoid types roaming the face of the earth. I wonder if this is the source of these what must be very old stories. A fictional movie that I like very much, "The Thirteenth Warrior" places Neanderthals in the middle ages of Europe.

Anita, could you share the book title that you were told about? Does anyone have any ideas or other books that one may enlighten us with?

Anita

09-20-2003, 09:46 AM

The book recommended was,Tausha by Ilia Beliaev.I have not read it yet,so can't say much about it.I believe it is published as a work of fiction.
I loved Master of lucid dreams by Olga Kharitidi,although it also is a work of fiction,reads like a novel,it explains in a language I can understand what these "lesser"demons are(ancient and not so ancient trauma)although it pretty much leaves it up to the reader to figure out how to deal with the trauma,or rather the "thoughtforms?"that enter the human experience through trauma.
There is some lines in that book that grabbed me and I quote:

The purpose of my talk tonight is not only educational.It serves to make some of the aspects of our work known to western culture.The reason is that the critical time has arrived.I told you that the unhealed traumatic experiences which gain status of their own and become spirits of trauma continue their existence throughout generations.If they are not healed,they build up,connect,accelerate,enforce and support each other,and become collective entities.
End of quote.

A lot of what she touches on in this book I have found in Tibetan traditions as well as in the little I have been able to find on Siberian Shamanism.
My reading list have sort of circled in the healing traditions in the last year or two.
By Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche,
Healing with Form Energy and Light.
and
Wonders of the natural mind.

By Claudia Muller-Ebeling,Christian Ratsch and Surendra Bahadur Shahi,
Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas.

These are the ones to come to mind about mentions of demons.
I would like to hear if anyone else have some good reads about the subject,fiction or non.
Peace
A

TarNutz

09-20-2003, 11:56 PM

Ah, the wonders of electricity. One never appreciates the most basic and necessary things until forced to deal without them for two days post-Isabel's high winds in the tree-state. I got real (blisteringly) friendly with my machete and hand axe: don't have a gas powered chainsaw yet.

While walking through my old neighborhood (completely blacked out), I was reflecting on spirits, specifically the spirits of the cats I've known and loved since my childhood that seem to follow me around and pop up now and then in the corners of my vision.

I'll post my spirit-rant in another thread on the Elemental Beings set. But as far as I've experienced, everything that ever was, still is to some degree, if only as an echo of an echo. Some believe that spirits are "recycled" in reincarnation; I think this might happen to some degree, although how much a hand "Karma" or "Justice" has a hand in it I don't know.

I do believe that we make our own bed for our afterlives (whenever they may suddenly begin), so it's a lot more spiritually sound to keep one's bullshit to a minimum to avoid fucking ourselves by having others feeling neglected or maybe even hateful of you, and not being able to directly do anything about it, even though what's wrong will be instantly apparent to you, as the barrier between your Ego and your Overself will be stripped... if you're (un?)lucky and have that perspective, you'll probably be a bit busy for a while as a spirit doing the contortions necessary to unload your burdens. Otherwise, your Overself becomes your personal Devil, torturing your Ego (your perception of yourself that you wear and tend to identify with) until you unburden your soul so you can begin again fresh.

We feed our demons. We keep them alive and kicking by doing things to support them. We all have our addictions: coffee and cigarettes, the monster fuck, steamed crabs and silver queen corn, booze, beer, and all the drugs in the alphabet, just for starters. Hell, Humanity makes billions (trillions?) by selling and controlling our addictions (perhaps manufacturing them?). We all have something to want.

The extent where the desire takes over and drives you instead of driving it is where "demons" come into play. Master them or they will master you. Trust me. I know. Obsession can be useful at some points for its focus, but it's not always appropriate. Illusions can be comforting, too: use them sparingly. In life, there is a balance between all things: try to walk the middle road if you don't want to fall off the edge into the Abyss.

The world we live in can be a wonderful or horrifying place depending on where we stand in it. There is much potential in all things; learn to see it and do the best with what you've got. Anything is indeed possible if you have the Will and Imagination to make it happen, and the secret is that there is no secret: the only thing that's "rocket science" is well, rocket science. People in general are trained to be stupid and unaware by their educators and the media, so they can be used and fleeced by the powerful. Fleece carefully or not at all as your morality and ethics dictate, but better to be an aware, alert predator than prey of any sort.

They say there are two ways to live well: pursue excellence or pursue broadness of experience. I say that it's best to do a bit of both so you can find out what you really like doing and can combine the lessons learned to make really amazing things. Just keep it simple, work with what you know, always keep learning and never give up.

Woodpecker: Tiamat was the ancient name for the World-Dragon that the Sky-Father slew and made the planet from. Leviathan was sort of the same thing for the ocean. There's a paperback Necronomicon if you want to know about these and other demons; check out your local Crown or Barnes and Noble. If you do mess with the incantations, do yourself two major favors: practice pronunciations (it's like phonetic Japanese in a way) before fucking with these spirits and respect the deities involved. I assure you, they are alive and well, and listening even now... *thunder rumbles* *giggle* Tempt not the Hungry Dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste like pork. The Monk perspective is a good guide: remember that Monks are Lawful, not Chaotic. My advice? Go train in the martial arts: your Ki is a weapon against the unruly denizens of the spirit world if you focus it and keep your Perception aware and Will firm.

Halfglass: nice take. The physical world and magick (if indeed they are "seperate" worlds) tend to have this interesting tendency to provide evidence for whatever theory one makes at the time. I'm not sure how flexible reality is yet; I'm not done playing with it. Inevitably when we test things to their limits, things break. Be gentle and respectful and it won't fail you when you need it. Yes there is "technology", the gears of the Multiverse silently grinding away, from the ultracomplexity of the ubersimple bend of Gravity to the interplay of energy, matter, time, thought and entropy. Let me give you a perspective.

The Pattern is big. I mean, really big. You have no idea. You might think it's a trip to go out of county to that supermall to get your particular shade of bathroom tile from the outlet store, but that's peanuts compared to the scope of the All-Pattern. This thing stretches across worlds.

Close by, we've got this tightly interwoven mesh of life-energies: because we view our lives in relation to time, and time has a linear quality to it, consider each lifetime to be like a fuzzy piece of yarn. We weave around each other, get pulled into different parts of the weave and unite them by your interweaving: sometimes we're tight, other times we're loose. But we bind other threads to us by our actions: it's almost as if we leave little filaments wherever we go and to whatever we've ever learned or done, connecting us to them forever. Sometimes it seems more liquid than that. But it makes little sense to try to focus on the outer world too much or on the machinery: it's good to know how the car works, but it's more important to pay attention to the road when you're driving. Try to sense the danger and bullshit before it happens; close the door to trouble before it starts. Magick is no good unless you can use it subtly in every day life.

Anita: that was enlightening! Would be much obliged if you had some links. The bit about the "critical time" has figured much in many of my visions when I've sought information about the world. I've seen that the three most important things for shamans and magickians to do in our time is #1 to take care of ourselves, to be ready and fit, #2 be able to provide for the welfare of others; and #3 to gently enlighten the people we're close enough (learning and teaching) with until they "wake up" on their own. But you can't force people to see past their bullshit; you can just gently remind them. Information (especially "catchy" information) wants to be free, however: spread the good stuff far and wide and watch the world change.

More later in the Elementals threads. Right now I have a date with the Dream World. Hope things are workin' out for y'all.

Tar

Woodpecker

09-21-2003, 07:49 AM

Tar,

First I heard of Tiamat was in D&D. A myth page I read the other day said she was a primordial dragon mother of the salt sea--a kind of reptile mama--later slain by Marduk, her grandson, a god of civilization. I figure it was probably politics: the god's followers defamed the goddess as they beat up on her worshippers, as has happened so often in history. Maybe in the myth there's a reflection of our evolution.

Bought a copy of the Necronomicon when I was a teenager; thought it was kind of cool, but never went into it.

Tried Kung Fu and Pencak Silat; felt like an absolute klutz because I couldn't replicate movements I'd seen the teachers do. Was about the absolute worst in each group. I wouldn't rule out trying again sometime though. Actually I'd love to. Maybe take up judo again, which I did as a kid.

But I've done butoh dance for two years, and find it really satisfying: powerful, intense, gentle bodywork for chaotic types who like to invent many of their own movements and not get locked into preset forms.

A colleague and I were talking about demons last year and agreed butoh was a way to work with them in a positive way--beating the devil, giving him his due, and giving him a run for his money at the same time. In butoh, as in shamanism, the whole universe is permitted to flow through the practitioner in all its forms and flavors.

Looking forward to your cat rant.

Wpkr

Magnus_Grey

09-21-2003, 09:57 AM

The necronomicon is a work of fiction inspired by the tales of H.P. Lovecraft, in which the word first appears. The demons in his books are much more impressive anyway.

TarNutz

09-21-2003, 11:31 AM

Woodpecker: A good book written by Joe Hyam for spiritual perspective is "Zen and the Martial Arts": has a lot of good reference for the student.

If you want to be like the masters, you've gotta "Empty your Cup": we all have these ideas of what it is to be a master of the martial arts or anything else, for that matter. A journalist came to a Zen master once and asked him to explain Zen to him in an interview. When they met, the master poured a cup of tea for the reporter; he filled it to the brim and kept pouring, overflowing it onto the table. The reporter protested, saying "It's full already, no more will go in." The master replied, "You too are like this cup, filled with your own ideas and opinions. Before I can teach you anything new, you must empty your cup and try."

Judo is good, but for spiritual development I think Aikido is probably the best combat art, followed by Tai Chi (which is extremely combat-effective and balanced when done at full speed, rather than the slow resistance training like you see on the David Karradine workout videos.) Aikido teaches you to focus on your Ki, shows you the importance of your Ta-Tien (your spiritual center, said to reside about an inch or two south of your navel), and gives you tools to deal with aggressors with a scale of escalation that starts at avoidance and immobilization, works through incapacitation, and goes all the way to lethal force if necessary. The other martial arts have a lot to contribute: I find that Kung-Fu and Wing-Chun are full of neat tricks. But for personal defense, stick to a balanced set of moves that you know inside and out, and develop your confidence and reflexes in them. Most of the best fighters use only a few basic moves and stick to what they know in a real altercation: get fancy at your own peril.

Martial arts doesn't happen overnight. Be patient, and try not to care so much about how you are percieved when you practice: concentrate more on just doing it and try not to think so much. Self-consciousness is self-defeating; just do it baby. The more you think about yourself, the more you block the flow. Relax yourself, settle your dust, take a deep breath and keep trying... and don't be surprised when you get it right!

Magnus: Agreed, but fiction has power based on belief just as well as religion does. I personally am more impressed by the demons that come visit me personally and take a hand in my life than those that remain aloof: it's all about closeness of experience.

Speaking of fictional accounts, I've been re-reading the Myth Adventures of Aahz and Skeeve by Robert Asprin (who coincidentally hangs out with a Zee-Cluster affiliate in New Orleans, or used to anyway). I find the "demon" Aahz to be a great archetype for a magickal teacher, and Skeeve to be a good model for the apprentice magickian with a sense of humor and balance. If I can track him down, I'll ask Mr. Asprin for permission to reproduce a segment from the beginning of his first in the series ("Another Fine Myth") relating to Skeeve's difficulties in a magickal exercise involving lighting a candle arcanely and control over the levitation of a feather. There's a lot of useful wisdom there relating to building ones confidence and spiritual power. I read the series far before I ever became interested in developing my own powers (before I even realized the possibilites). But the more my perspective has changed, the more I realize that the man was trying to relate something important to everyone without being preachy about it. He succeeded brilliantly.

I find a lot of the characters in the pulp paperbacks I read to be quite inspirational and veritable gold-mines of insight and wisdom (reflecting that of the author). The antics and Mythadventures of Skeeve, Aahz and company; the eternal badass Sergeant Zim (Starship Troopers); the wily Han Solo and loyal Chewbacca (Star Wars); the resourceful and inspring leadership of Captain Willard Phule of the Omega Mob (Phule's Company); the hard-core pragmatism of Colonel Alois Hammer (Hammer's Slammers); the tactical brilliance and heroism of Grayson Carlyle (the saga of the Gray Death Legion in the Battletech Universe); the list goes on. The nice thing about fiction is that it's coloured and defined by "hard reality" while not having to be totally bogged down in it. It has the reality you give it: for more information, read your favorite fiction story and consult your pineal gland.

I'm interested in putting together a "demonology" of fictional characters that have inspired me: I find it a beneficial personal exercise, helps show me where they fit into the architecture of myself. Anyone else have any experience in this sort of thing?

Just my two cents. YMMV.

P-Tar

StSimon

09-22-2003, 07:30 PM

There are several Necronomicon's out there, the most aesthetically pleasing being H.R. Giger's. There is even a Necronomicon detailing all the other Necronomicons out there -- when they were published, who probably wrote them, how well they stack up to the mythical ramblings of the mad Arab as described in the "wierd tales" of Lovecraft.

Lovecraft may have been a die-hard skeptic, but his pen conjured up spirits people still wrestle with. I had several LSD trips that latched on to the imagery of the Outer Gods to personify my own "wrathful demons." It was months later, re-reading Leary, Metzner, Alpert's Psychedelic Experience that I grokked what I went through. I no longer fear Nyarlathotep and the blind idiot piper at the gates of dawn, because I know him for myself.

Halfglass

09-25-2003, 02:34 PM

TarNutz: The theads or liquid ties...I've actually felt them manifesting during some trips. I called the "thought cakes" in my journal. It was other minds--noosphereish. Looking out into the Unknown, far out, I see the mind of IT is pure paradox, and I've settled down some these days in the area of banging my head on that mad buggers wall. But still I sneek back at times and scale that bastard.

[ September 25, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

willoweyes

09-26-2003, 06:05 AM

Whenever, suddenly, a cruel truth is revealed to me, I smell Datura princesses, flaunting their beauties as the sun sets. Today, I smell datura flowers, and I choke as I realize, we must all prepare for severe disturbances in our comfortable lifestyle. Soon.

Today is the eve of Rosh Hashanah. Three days ago, we shared the autumnal equinox, to little fanfare. This is an opening, recognized by many peoples. We can choose Life at this time, or we can choose--nothing. These days, it is well for our soul if we ask forgiveness from those we have wronged, and forgive those who have wronged us. And when asking, we should hold to the desire to do better. Perhaps we should not forget the earth this year, when we ask forgiveness.

I watched a show on PBS last night, concerning how our food is harvested. It is harvested by slaves. Our whole society rests on enslavement and abused power.

I would say to you, dearly beloved, plant a fall garden. Don't buy what you don't need. Don't destroy wantonly. As biological creatures, we turn the rule of entropy on its head--as mindless consumers, we feed its dark hunger.

The commonest end of dreams in our throwaway world--death by black plastic garbage bag.

Magnus_Grey

09-26-2003, 02:35 PM

Peronally I do not treat my entities as "real". This saves me much time and real life confusion, although I do value all of my experiances.

daniel

09-26-2003, 06:42 PM

Magnus,

Quite right.

As Dzogchen practicioners say, "There are no entities."

Magnus_Grey

09-26-2003, 06:59 PM

Well, I would say that you entities are about as real as you are, at best. This goes for the personification of various plants as well IMHO. At least, it is not often usefull to live one's day today life as if said entities were "real".
Of course, most people do the exact same thing and call it "god".

Woodpecker

09-28-2003, 02:01 AM

William Blake again: "Everything possible to tbe believ'd is an image of truth." Likewise, any being possible of being imagined is a reflection, shadow, or avatar of a greater being in the Platonic infinite world.

When don Fernando, the last Secoya shaman-chief, was dying, he spoke of being ready for a permanent move to the "real world," where the "real people" live--a place, and people, he'd visited many times before.

Magnus_Grey

09-28-2003, 10:37 AM

Thats great. I like Blake. It is still more useful to live my day to day life without worring which "entity" I have pissed off doing what. Just my personal beleif.

-Bryan

Buzz

09-29-2003, 05:30 AM

Anita and anyone interested,

I stumbled across the following book earlier today.It's called The Realm of the Ring Lords by Laurence Gardner. Supposedly an examination in true stories behind Tolkien's myth.
I know absolutely nothing about the book or the author save for info above. I'd like to hear reports on it if anyone knows or reads it.

Anita

09-30-2003, 07:18 AM

Hidden things breed "stuff",
An energy exchange is always taking place,
How to honor the creator?
Warm feelings in inclusiveness if one can..
Respect at the least.
Harmony,
A

Woodpecker

09-30-2003, 08:44 AM

Daniel,

In the first post in this thread, you mention King Solomon getting trapped by a demon. What's the source, what's the story?

Idly curious,

Nathan

Woodpecker

10-02-2003, 02:59 AM

Re: Rama (same guy as Krishna and Vishnu, if I remember correctly), one story about him from my college Indian Religion class was that once he killed a terrible demon, and right as the demon died, the demon became enlightened, and was transformed into a luminous heavenly being.

Don't try that on your friends....

Anita

10-02-2003, 03:07 AM

Goodmorning,
And I am hoping all of you are well..
I finally recieved my copy of Tuasha in the mail,looks really good so far..And it is written as a work of nonfiction.
I keep thinking that the whole idea of "battle"is leading the wrong way.Roots are coming up in conversations all over the place.Might it be that we need to find our "space"and root ourselves into that space in such a way as to be able to"hold"the quiet knowledge of peace?
Where I am going(being led?)seem to be a space of deep respect for the creator,The BIG dreamer.If all flows from the one breath,Then the spark lives even in the most horrible of horrors,somewhere...?
Hmm,Is it about transmutation of darkness into light?What about the need for a negative as well as positive current in order for electricity to be?
Humility?As in,Your will Not mine?But oh goodness,If my children are under a threat,how can I not battle the threat?
So far,never run,never give into fear,as most of us know fear breeds more fear,until it becomes raging terror,and terror strikes out mindlessly...

So,I am curious,Does anyone on this list know of a intensive retreat/workshop on Buddhist meditation,Dzoghchen practice?

Love,
A

Anita

10-02-2003, 03:11 AM

Hi woodpecker,
Do you remember the text where I might find the whole story?
Talk about synchronicity....
Love,
A

Woodpecker

10-03-2003, 04:38 AM

No idea. I looked for it on Google for a few minutes and am reasonably convinced that the story might not yet have been posted on a webpage. There are a tremendous number of stories in Hindu mythology. I'd like to read all of them!

Well, as T.S. Eliot used to say, "Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata. Shantih shantih shantih."

[ October 03, 2003, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

Woodpecker

10-03-2003, 06:26 AM

But if you're feeling ambitious, check the Ramayana.

PeoplesMind

10-03-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Woodpecker:
But if you're feeling ambitious, check the Ramayana.I find the Mahabharata is a better read, and more of a nesseccary prequisite for the Bhagwat Geeta, which is a work of many joys.

peace,
Nitin

Anita

12-01-2003, 06:22 AM

greetings,have finally finished Tuasha,gave me the creeps,and probably one of the most "thinkin'bout it"books I have read.
It really made me think about the shamans path and all that it entails.
There is a call out from the eagle tribe in Guatemala for help during a stargate window of dec 4 through 7.
Can be read at www.sacredroad.org (http://www.sacredroad.org)
They are coming through,although it is as it always have been,they need a human host.
Love,and compassion,even to those that wish to harm us collectivly is the only way to keep them out of our immediate experience.This is what Jesus taught,and this is what the early christians knew.We are immortal with a obsessive yearning to stay in the body,They know this,so they play with fear in order to make us question the truth of life,and the integrity that is our birthgift.
There has always been "rules"about a shamans path.I don't see many of these newage ones following the rules.....beware of the witches,the ones who come in the guise of bringing a fabulous gift out of the amazon,all for a price of course......
All for now.
Peace
A

jezebelle

12-02-2003, 02:03 AM

In the japanese fairy tale (out in video) ONMYOJI
I found a moment in the story that stuck to me. One of the main characters was being attacked, by a woman he loved, yet she turned out to be a demon. Even the great magician would not be able to control her if certain precautions were not mantained. Of course all hell breaks loose, and our hero is dying. As she is bitting him with deep fangs, he says, "if I must die, I'm glad it is by you." At that moment of love admission, she returns to herself and releases him.

I learned from this.

In a heightened state of awareness, I notice things are polarized and the stakes of life are more dramatic. Evil in our lives serve many purposes, all documented.

I found interesting, that the evil we allow to remain in us, is also waiting for our redemption, so that it may piggyback on that moment.

Woodpecker

12-03-2003, 01:11 AM

Interesting stuff--about evil hiding within us waiting for redemption.

More about the King Solomon story reached my mailbox the other day. A scholar named Gary Sheva kindly wrote me the following about King Solomon and the demons:

This story is in the Talmud, in the section known as 'Gitin' (laws of
divorce), starting on page 68.

The story begins with King Solomon's construction of the Temple. There
is a law that iron can not be used in the construction of the Temple
because iron is used as an implement of war which shortens life and the
Temple is all about the promotion of life. There is a worm called the
shamir which has the power to split rock,it was critical to obtain this
worm for the building of the Temple.

King Solomon sent his General, Benayahu to capture Asmodai the King of
the demons to find out how to get the worm. After Benayahu successfully
completed his mission, the demon king was a captive of King Solomon who
questioned the Demon King. The demon king when first brought to Solomon
said "its not enough that you rule over the forces of heaven and earth
you need to rule over me as well?" one day when King Solomon asked
Asmodai a question about the demons power, the demon responded "remove
your signet (which had God's Holy name engraved upon it) and these
chains which bind me (which also had God's Holy name upon them - these
items were originally used to capture the demon king) and I will show
you. King Solomon did so and the demon king rose up and immediately
cast Solomon across the world and took over his kingdom (appearing in
King Solomon's form). There is a discussion among talmudic commentators
if this last part of the story actually physically happened or it was
mental. The Maharal, Rabbi Yehuda Loew of Prauge (A great torah sage
who live in the 1500's, a tribute in honor of the Maharal from the
people of Prague stands this very day in Prague) is of the opinion that
this happened mentally, and when the Sages of King Solomon's time
prayed to God for Solomon, King Solomon was restored.

This is a very, very shortened and incomplete version of the story in
the Talmud.

As a latter day postscript, the kabbalists strongly warn not to mess
with demons at all, there is a general rule, 'if you leave them alone
they leave you alone' It is extremely dangerous and unwise to mess
around in any new-agey or old-agey kind of way with these things. There
were Sages of outstanding righteousness and wisdom over history who had
the power to command these creatures and refrained. The only thing they
made use of was their faith in God.

Best,
Gary

ps there are many good web sites out there to find out more about the
basics and the deeper stuff among them

aish.com
azamra.org
orot.com

[ December 03, 2003, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

jezebelle

12-03-2003, 09:34 AM

woodpecker (gary)
sounds like good advise, don't mess stirring the pot until life forces you - very human, I go by it.

I am reminded of a book I read about the last real (romanesque) gypsy, in Wales. Besides talking to trees and other things, he was able to heal. He learned that people allowed evil spirits to lure them to sickness because they ignored the child of change at the cave entrance.

Also I wonder if evil is not sometimes our own polarity, still working its way through the toros (ya know that matematical shape of 4th dimensional math) in life. And when it comes our way, our quest is to shed light or love through one's insight and act quickly. Depending one's personal power perhaps, determines the size of the toros.

Just an idea. Certainly becoming unstuck, is a gentle loving process.

Lynx

12-05-2003, 06:27 AM

As a sidebar to this discussion: I was at an alternative health exposition last week, and I met a woman from a group that believes King Solomon was a shaman.

Also, in a seminar where another woman was talking about nature spirits helping her with her herbal medicine practice, a man in the audience raised the concern about accidentally hooking up with evil spirts instead. The woman's reply was that the bad ones only come to you if you invite them.

Agent Smith

12-10-2003, 10:18 AM

hmmm, interesting thread. some of these things I have been thinking on as of late. I think it was Anita who read 'Master of Lucid Dreaming' which although it's a perfectly wretched book ala 'the teachings of don jaun'(man, I hope I don't beat up on him in every post I hope to be making on this board...hmmm, maybe the Imp of the Perverse will be too much for me to overcome ;) )where a wise, and kindly wierdo does strange things to a rational, and confused skeptic type, I did come away from it with some interesting tibits. Mostly that demons/'spirits of trauma' might be parasitically looking to imbed themselves in us, emotionally/energetically and incubate there until they can replicate, like 'demon dna', and get passed on to the next host... ala sexual abuse repeating generationally... this parallels certain taoist thoughts about 'energy blockages/knots' being related to pschological/emotional difficulties. I tend away from the whole 'oh they're all just psychological' explaination of demons. "Just because you don't believe in the elves, doesn't mean they don't believe in you".

One idea I've been toying with lately is the notion that demons might be the energetic/spiritual form ('astarl bodies'lol) of the parasitical organisms that inhabit our bodies, and control some portions of our behavior. a book that explains this really well is "Prasite Rex".

Shimrod

12-23-2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Lynx:
As a sidebar to this discussion: I was at an alternative health exposition last week, and I met a woman from a group that believes King Solomon was a shaman.Whatever the extent of King Solomon's wisdom was, I am unsure and still probing... but it went way beyond anything we can imagine...

"Solomon's wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the people of the East and all the wisdom of Egypt" Kings, 5:10.

The eastern stuff maybe I could guess a little bit, but the wisdom of Egypt? I haven't the faintest idea.

There is a work of Kabbalah in Hebrew called "The Leshem" for short, that discusses Solomon's wisdom at length. I don't understand enough of it to fully relate it. In any case the wisdom reffered to in the verse is hardcore primal stuff. If i would guess, today we only have the barest hints of what this ancient wisdom of the East and Eygpt was. It was also a practical wisdom involving deep knowledge of certain forces and perhaps manipulation therof.

Alot of Solomon's work and power was to make knowledge and wisdom accessible. In his day Kings and wise men came from throughout the world to hear his wisdom. The Queen of Sheba came to test him and by the end of the test she was literally "Breathless" with awe.

Best

durga

12-27-2003, 05:27 AM

This was great to read from beginning to end--sort of like my own mind when I get to thinking. It seems like mankinds history and our spiritual doctines from every culture abounds with demons, casting them out binding them placating them. What to do. The gita says act without attachment to results. Why because we are physical and must act. Doing nothing is an action. You can do nothing with great attachment to results and be know more free from illusion than slaying in the name of "good". Of course in a war each side thinks it's good and the other bad--or right and wrong. So then looking at the outside is no way of knowing what is going on in the inside--the heart. At this point I start getting very bogged down and have to stop trying to solve things mentally--at least with my brain. I don't always know whats in my own heart because if I want something bad enough I usually can justify it . This is the point where I am just starting to realize if i am debating to much I should probably do nothing. I guess this is in response to "is revenge magick ever appro". The advice to turn the other cheek is sound and yet we can justify a lot of letting others suffer by appying the "it's their karma" phrase and I don't think that's what trying to understand karma is about. I think of Neem Karoli Baba saying to his disciple that the suffering in the world was perfect as was his desire to alleviate it.

I wonder if turning physical with all our senses was started by a murder? On the physical it seems damn near impossible to be born and not hurt something. We eat to keep our bodies. We have to.

So on demon stories--the classical ones-- one I like best--east Indian Mythology is of a siddha --one who masters the powers of nature--becoming so strong that mankind gods even other demons get together and plead for help (seems like once the sidda has power of the natural elements he wreaks havoc in the univers) This brings together the creator, preserver, and deystroyer of our universe (brahma, vishnu, siva) and Durga is manifest--the feminie Shakti. nature herself and she slays the demon. The demon is of coursed blessed at that moment and liberated. Some Indian studies say that this was when the original shakti mother worship in India was beginning to resurface having been buried under the Trinity idea. There is also some propaganda about the evil buffalo--this sidda was called the buffalo demon-- which may have been the previous rulers cult. In some circles it is thought that this was layered on to the original story.

durga

12-29-2003, 06:21 AM

Since this is the battle with demons forum---I have read about the idea that as you progress you may attract demons as they are also interested in evolving or that in slaying demons they may also be transformed or evolved --both ideas I like of course and I guess the above is true as long as your energy is strong enough to tranform the demon or what. I was however warned by a teacher, not an alarmist--he's 85 from Karnatakatan and very familiar with astral enities---also he is not in anyway anti Christian. Anyway the story goes as such--a man is progressing in meditation and begins having visions of Christ crusified. As he revisits he sees people are going up to the cross and drinking his blood. He decides to join. Later he is convicted of chrimes involving murdering senior citizens and drinking there blood.

okay I know it sounds like something from the enquirer--way over the top but I swear this man is not one to stir the pot or just tell us a story for shock value. He was really sincerely warning us--he still encourages us to travel and try to contact astral teachers.

So is this a case where someone was unable to transform something in himself therefore succumbed to the worst aspect and deteriorated mentally? Was this just a human demon in the making--karma--a missed oportunity to transform himself?

I guess I bring this up because I have always felt vulnerable to excitment about contact with astral things-- and it was my first experience with halluconogenics that allowed that reality--its been over 25 years ago--I was lead pretty quickly to a structured path so I'm lucky but I keep thinking that the cultures who used these fast concious changers had more ritual and structure than at least the use I have seen here in the states. This does seem to be changing some. Also I don't want to sound like a prude ritual comes with some baggage and requires ego surrender . I guess I just feel a bit worried about people out there who are on there own. Young people. I feel I was encredibly fortunate and have great respect for these substances.

daniel

12-30-2003, 04:06 AM

durga,

Increasingly, I agree with your perspective.

Recently I met a young guy from the West Coast who was talking spiritual enlightenment and had all sorts of psychedelic substances for sale. His hair was dyed and he was wearing bright colored synthetic fabrics. He was proud of turning on lots of people to DMT, Ketamine, etc. After a while, I began to feel that he was no longer a person but had been possessed and taken over by entities from the astral plane trying to get into our realm in an indiscriminate and aggressive way.

I suppose there are many gradations of astral entities, not simple demons vs. angels. A lot of the chanelled entities seem deeply ambiguous. For myself, personally, a certain period of fascination with the "dark side" seems to be ending, and in future journeys I will seek to bar the door to anything impure, rather than being curious and hence susceptible. I do worry especially for young people who have no basis for discrimination in these realms - I am sure that learning proper psycho-navigation was an important aspect of initiation in tribal societies.

daniel

12-30-2003, 04:09 AM

Shimrod

01-08-2004, 01:12 AM

Hi,

Does anyone on this board have any experiences with or knowledge of psychic vampirism they care to recount? Or more importantly means of defense against...

best,
shimrod

Buzz

01-11-2004, 07:21 AM

I've been participating on other forums conversing about "reptilian hostile aliens" and the grey aliens. My response to these subjects is, I guess, intellectual in nature, as, to my knowledge, I have never been abducted. (Despite witnessing UFO's on numerous occasions.)

I've been toying around with the idea that these alien abductions are taking place in dreams. Think about it, about 95% take place while one is sleeping. The other 5% seems to be while people are driving on desolate roads, perhaps hypnotised by not having to be too aware. Often, when I drive for long periods at night, if there is no stress from lots of traffic I daydream.

Add to this the concept that we have both a soul and a spirit (what Castenada called tonal and the nagual). Read Peter Russell's book, The Lost Secret of Death if you are interested in a detailed account of this concept.

I'm of the opinion that something, and perhaps something dangerous to abductees, is happening to them. In Russells book he details the attributes of both soul and spirit. Briefly, the spirit is eternal and with each life (Involves belief in re-incarnation)a new soul comes together with it &forms a new identity. Both the soul and spirit reside in the heart of a rational person. (I think I have to bring up Castenada's story again to identify the assemblage point's natural place as the HEART. Insane people (like nearly everyone today) have this assemblage point dislocated or mis-located).Back to the attributes, the "Soul" is mobile. It can travel out of the body, the spirit remains fixed to the body until death. Taking this idea, I am assuming that the greys and aliens are actually a little less than physical and somehow they are able to pull the soul out of anindividual and interact and scare the bloody hell out of it. What I am not sure of is why. But I suspect they are somehow ripening up these souls to at least attempt to harvest them upon death. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Buzz

01-11-2004, 07:57 AM

Again with the reptilians.

Just received my copy of Teonanacatl: Sacred Mushroom of Visions by Ralph Metzner. Like in his book on Ayahuasca there are several "experience" stories. On page 216 Kate S. writes:
"I was catapulted quite beyond the room into a realm where reptilian people were in a battle with human beings from our planet. They were from a different dimension of reality, and through some opening or tear between our worlds, they were able to make their way into ours. They were able to take over our minds and bodies and were extremely focused on domination over our species. I felt I was experiencing some distant time in the beginning of our human presence on this planet."
I was being shown the history and inner workings of these reptilians and the long standing war between our species. They stood as a person, on legs, so that they were as tall as me or taller. Their skin was bumpy and scaled, greenish, pinkish, bluish. They had long dark-pinkish tongues and seemed to communicate telepathically through deep intense glances of their eyes."
"I was shown that the reptilian people were aware that humans commonly lost their focus and were asleep to the influences around them. This lack of centering causes a sort of hole in the human through which the reptilian people's influence could find its way in. Then the human being would consciously or unconsciously begin to act with the coldness of the reptilian attitude. It was a very tough situation."
"The reptilian people seemed evil, in that their emotions were heartless, with no sense of compassion. All that moved them was their need to attain their goal and an insatiable appetite for power. As the experience unfolded, I was aware that they had been at this project of trying to control human beings for thousands of years. They understood all of our modern technology and communication methods. They understood our psychology. They had found a way to disguise themselves as humans and bind humans to them through false friendships and relationships, even to win humans over to actually becoming lizard people."

I'm going to suggest that, just like Carlos Castenada said his Don Juan told him, they drive off the soul, replacing it with their own.

Any opinions? Anyone out there had any like experiences with the reps?

Buzz

01-11-2004, 09:30 AM

Two posts above I mistakenly wrote that Peter Russell was the author of The Lost Secret of Death. The author is actually Peter NOVAK.

kris ifans

01-11-2004, 11:22 AM

Hi Buzz. Personally i tend to assume that all such visions are metaphorical, and represent forces stimulated from within my psyche. Its a subtle distinction, i know, but i think it is more fruitful, and possibly safer, to treat the reptiles as belonging to me. There is certainly a war going on, but the battleground is the individual, and the attitudes of that individual to the external environment.

I often have visions of reptiles, but feel no accompanying sense of threat. In fact, for me, they tend to be associated, predictably perhaps, with sexual energy.

I would baldly interpret the vision of Kate S. as being a product of her amoral reproductive system. A Scots proverb: The standing cock knows no conscience (or something like that...)

Yugoslav guerrilas in world war 2 found they had to seperate male and female fighters, because, under siege, they were having sex instead of fighting the attackers.

I could be tragically wrong about the reptiles of course. But i erect (ahem..) no barriers, if i can help it, against the serpent in my soul...

When i see snakes writhing in the branches of trees i tend to feel that something like Dionysus is near, and things seem to take a predictable course after that....and i invariably come away from such experiences feeling healthier, and more in touch with...i dunno....tenderness?? than is usual for me.

Thats my take on the reptiles anyway...

kris

[ January 11, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: kris ifans ]

Buzz

01-12-2004, 10:58 AM

Hi Kris,

Hows the weather in Wales? Never been there but always had good feelings about it.

I understand your premise about symbolism/spirit world talk. But, for me at least, these personal little messages are generally in briefer form. And often very direct,"how could I ever be so stupid as to waste time, whatever..." They seem to come to me early on in the trip, all that self-examination stuff, the judgement,dying, not being dead after all, "Wow, another chance to get it right, whoppppe!!!!"
I've heard it discussed that people on LSD have an inward trip, and that mushrooms show you something else, outward. Despite these arguements for me mushrooms and LSD are very similar. Being inside or outside, day or night effect the direction of my journey. These are uncharted regions for western folks, at least on this side of the big water. LSD kicked my ass into other worlds, there was no door. On mushrooms I was shown a door, but one has to either pass a test or go through on your own despite being warned that it's "really, really scary, are you sure?" The difference in intensity may be the quantity consumed. There is also more strangeness in the mushroom.
Having stated all that, and getting back to the trip post-self exam. For me, this early examination is followed by an out of the body experience or inward eyelid movies, after what seems like an eternity, I return. At this point I am able to speak, piss, and generally deal with the world. Then its out of body again for another seeming eternity, then back. This can go on for several more episodes. The point being that these adventures out of body or inward take place in environments that I cannot imagine having created.One travels through time, to other worlds, experiences episodes of epic proportions, like the Lord of the Rings kind of epic proportions. I used to call them waking dreams, meaning that one seems very awake, more awake than one has ever been. Often, these worlds are more real, more profound in emotion and sensuality, than our "normal" world. i don't blow these things off are mere illusions, at least, not any more illusionistic that this place. The difficult part is retaining the memory of them.

And as far as the reptilian battle of long ago that was someone else's trip, if I had that vision its buried. But I think I would place it in the post self-exam phase. I don't know Kate and can't speak for her however.

Have you read The Cosmic Serpent by Jeremy Narby? It's a great book as he researchs the Serpent - DNA connection. Many people who drink Ayahuasca speak of seeing lots of snakes, some gigantic in proportion. They are told by those more experienced than them that the snakes are great teachers. I've read at least a couple of reports of shamen or apprentices confering with dragons who descended in ancient times upon the earth, who say they live on in our DNA. So, what you are saying may be a rather realistic way of dealing with this information, however unpleasant or unacceptable it might be.

kris ifans

02-03-2004, 12:42 AM

Buzz, its been ages, but i'd like to respond to some of your points if i can.

I agree with your comments about LSD, mushrooms and the threshold. This threshold is what i'm rambling on about in my previous post. For me, the threshold is the actual period of personal revelation---to cross over into more impersonal regions i have to get past this phase. Getting stuck at this threshold point, being unable to answer the sphinx as it were, is how confusion and bad trips occur, in my opinion.

LSD on the other hand does often seem to just swat the sphinx aside! Something not always desirable.

You're possibly taking higher doses than me. Most of my trips are outdoors, with p. semilanceata, wandering around-- theres some fairly isolated coastline here, with a extensive dune system stretching mile after unpopulated mile. Its not cool disturbing armed and moody badger baiters in the moonlight when you're tripping though! Give me demons anytime. So i tend to attempt to remain fairly functional for the great outdoors trip.

Perhaps theres a discussion to be had on the benefits, drawbacks and differences between "nature trips" and closed eye trips?

kris.

P.S.
I've not read that Jeremy Narby book, but i'll certainly look it up. Thanks for the tip! (Had my first experience with ayahuasca the other day...)

And the weather in Wales? Rain, floods and gales as is usual for winter! Though the summer temperatures are frequently breaking records these days.. :confused:

Agent Smith

08-15-2004, 04:08 PM

haha!!

BUMP!!

Humming

08-17-2004, 07:26 AM

Wow, this is a massive discussion. Where to begin....

As far as UFO's and dreams, Buzz I feel the same way. It seems to me that the more you consider the existence of UFO's, the more likely you are to be visited--much like the discussion of angels and demons presented here. Kind of like walking from a lighted area into a darker one, and as your eyes adjust, realizing that you are not alone...

As the Self becomes more aware, the interest is ignited. Lately my dream characters have been demonstrating a lot of personal interest in me, as I have been in them.

I dreamed the other day that three people came to me in a hotel room, as I was sitting on the floor. They said that they had come to see me, and then they sat on the floor around me forming a circle, tilted back their heads and in their mouths were charcoals burning. I take this to mean that the flame has been ignited, and as I become more aware of them, so they of me.

As far as abduction, I had a dream a few weeks ago in which I was eating dinner with Dennis McKenna and an alien form. Dennis was at the head of the table and I was sitting to his left. To his right there was an orb about the size of a basketball, floating above the table. The orb was omniscient, and I could ask it any question I could conceieve of. It was absolutely the strangest dinner party i have ever been to.

Later, I walked outside the house and Terrence was on the front lawn. I stood with him and watched as a lighted, ovalesque spaceship came shifting over the roof of the house. Dennis came out into the front and tore his face off, revealing a huge bug-eyed blue alien head. He told me that all they wanted was to sexually probe me, and I fought him briefly before waking up.

That dream would've been much more useful if I hadn't projected my own stupid fears into it.... The whole scene was extremely vivid, and I have had a very few similar dreams of alien contact which were equally bizarre and colorful.

Battling demons on the spirit plane is a contest of power that I have been involved in for some time. I agree with Magus, that it is extremely confusing to try to sort out between what is part of you, and what exists outside of you, as far as entities. Basically I've come to the conclusion that everything outside of me exists inside of me, and vice versa.

When I was reading BOTH I was camping in Moab, Utah. I was extremely interested in the idea of substance worship, specifically the DPT experience, as a sacrament for the church in NY. I went to sleep and dreamed of going to the church. I watched their mass, which was a familiar church-like affair, taking place in rows of pews with someone standing up front and talking. I was bored with that, so I went into an adjacent room and sat down at the computer. A man in pressed black pants and a starched white shirt came to me and asked if I would like to experience the DPT trip. I told him yes, and I watched and experienced the trip through the computer screen. It was harrowing and disturbing, feeling and being part of shifting landscapes reminiscent of Giger's paintings--torture and anguish. I came out of it with an understanding of how the experience would be made into a religion.

I talked to the man about my dreams, telling him of the all-consuming darkness that had been engulfing my dreamspace, and how I had been contacted by Satan in an earlier dream. (Satan here is an archetypal figure, not an actual entity.) The DPT priest told me that if Satan had been looking for me, perhaps I should try looking for him, and I woke up.

I have been pondering this for a long time since then, and am only recently decoding the deep meanings of what my dream was telling me.

Before I understood the laws of karma (I read the Dalai Lama's translation of the word karma as "action" and it all made sense to me then) whenever I would come into lucidity in a dream, I would be immediately engulfed by a creeping darkness which would choke out everything else. This happened for weeks before it ended. I was confused, unsure whether the darkness was caused by negative energy, or simply my fear that it would happen. Whenever my fear was released it would inevitably became ramapant, and the darkness would always ensue. This, to me, is the act of binding a demon within oneself.

After realizing that my fear was the root cause of its own manifestation, it simply disappeared in my dreamscape and I was free. The demon of my own fear was slain. As FDR said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Humming

08-21-2004, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by daniel:
Here is another aspect of this question: Alliances with demons.

I am wondering right now, frankly, whether "black magic" is ever justified. I have been immersed in the most extraordinary book, "Voices of the First Day," by Robert Lawlor, on the Australian aboriginals. For the aboriginals, if you have been wronged, you seek retaliation - simple as that. Sorcery is one powerful method. In our culture, as we approach the end of the Kali Yuga, it seems that a lot of people are simply passive tools of negative forces, and sometimes these people get in one's way. In the last years, I have been royally fucked over by someone who has interfered with something very important to me - what I consider to be part of my "spiritual mission" - and really for no reason or fault of my own. He gave me his word and he has broken it. I really feel like I might have the right to seek ritual retaliation against him - I don't even necessarily want to do this, in a strange way it almost seems like a duty - or perhaps it is a demon whispering in my ear, pulling me away from the "light."

This stuff of course happens unconsciously all the time - in fact, our society is rife with black magik operating as all sorts of negative modalities, breaches of honour, and passive aggressive bullshit. Even Christ threw the moneychangers out of the temple - which means physically evicting them from the premises, perhaps grabbing them hard and hurting them in the process.

What do other people think about this?I had a dream last night that relates directly to the discussion of action/non-action, as per retribution: whether or not vengance is ever justified in any context.

When I first came to the revelation about why I should not harm other living things, I was lifeguarding this summer at an outdoor pool. Behind where I would sit there were butressed railroad ties which housed several families of wasps. At the beginning of the summer, I would kill them with a horribly toxic chemical spray, taking some delight watching their gruesome desmise as I would spew chemicals at them--even though I had never been stung. Not being entirely compassionless, I would tell myself that I was doing it for the sake of the little kids around the pool, to maybe prevent them from having an allergic reaction to a sting and dying.

After reading some Buddhism and Castaneda, one day I realized that what I was doing in killing the wasps was grossly unnecessary and wrong. Before those readings, I had never really considered the consciousness and awareness of lower life-forms.

I realized that if I didn't fuck with them and didn't display fear and agitation towards them, they would not sting me. I was correct, and I had a newfound appreciation towards wasps, and all living creatures.

In my dream last night, I was sitting inside and a red skinned wasp buzzed around me. I didn't kill it, but moved away instead, so as to protect and sanctify its ability to exist.

Later in the dream, the next night, the wasp again appeared and this time it stung me and I killed it. My foot swelled up three or four inches where I had been stung, and my leg broke out into the most bizarre effect of the wasp's poison: my leg was covered, from the top of my foot all the way to my thigh, in strange quill-like bristles which had little hollow balls of brittle material at their tips. I felt fine except for the dull ache of swelling, but the quills stood out as a glaring reminder of the wasp's sting.

I take this as a lesson; vengance IS warranted, but only very rarely.

I believe the stipulation to be this: that action should only be taken against a worthy opponent. To act against a lesser consciousness, someone who does not understand the realities of psychic warefare, is unfair and wrong. But to battle a worthy, knowing opponent who has intentionally wronged you is perfectly justified, and if you find it suitable, you may drain that person's power and take it as your own--knowing that they would do the same to you if they had been the victor of the contest.