The Shaman's Doorway

[Rimbaud]

Tonight I finished reading "The Shaman's Doorway" by Stephen Larsen. Larsen explores shamanism from a psychological perspective and relates it to the mythic imagination. He makes a better argument for the significance of myths than any other author I've read.

There are several insights in this book that are worth quoting:

1. "Myth is not fully understood unless one enters into an altered state of consciousness."
I would agree with this because a light trance, the dream state, or psychedelics seem to be essential.

2. "The shaman obviously has access to dimensions of consciousness usually unavailable to us."
Speak for yourself Larsen. He makes the usual mistake of thinking native peoples possess some special gift or relationship to the mythic that can't be found in modern man.

3. "Following the unmistakable and widespread opening of the mythic imagination occassioned by psychedelic drugs in the 1960s."
Groovy! This confirms other people's observations that 1960s enjoyed a spiritual awakening due to LSD. Unfortunately I can only speculate on how powerful the psychedelic experience may be but it does seem obvious that it served as a revelation to a generation and this is gradually being lost.

4. "And numerous caped wonders - bearing the signs of their totem animal - Hawkman, Spiderman, Batman, zoom through the air, fighting evil."
He is making the intriguing observation that many mythic comic book heros derive their special powers from totem animals just like shamans do.

[brother shamus]

You should try reading Mircea Eliade's "Myth of the Eternal Return" and "Shamanism", He relates the rituals of many tribes that share similar rites with no geographic or ethnographic links.

"2. "The shaman obviously has access to dimensions of consciousness usually unavailable to us."
Speak for yourself Larsen. He makes the usual mistake of thinking native peoples possess some special gift or relationship to the mythic that can't be found in modern man." rimbaud

I must expand through Eliade, that most shaman believe that they are just shadows of the 'ancestoral shaman' (in illio tempore, in the original time), who could really fly and do magic and miracles. The recent shaman, (and some modern men), have to use the three d's drumming, dance and drugs to get where the old shaman could go at will.
Starting usually from the 'axis mundi', (intersection of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld), the shaman would go into a trance state and voyage to 'the otherworld' to retrive the soul of sick people, guide the dead to their final resting place, or find out about the future, (ie. the hunt, the weather etc.).
The initation and traning of shaman is the basis for being able to traverse 'the otherworlds', modern man can take the same drugs and just get altered and not be able to travel the pathways of the otherworld because of lack of training, intent and setting. Between Eliade and Terence Mckenna you should find a good path. http://www.rinf.com/articles/Terence-Mckenna.htm

[Rimbaud]

I don't think there is an actual "otherworld" to journey to as an objective reality. The otherworld is just your interior world. However we tend to be too dismissive of the interior world. Depending upon the level of your access to the psyche, this interior world can be completely unfamiliar to the conscious mind and exhibit the creative powers of the dreaming mind.

I regard the shaman as a dreamer who imagines he journeys to wonderlands. However he or she may be an exceptional dreamer. The exceptional dreamer will find it easy to give his reveries a timeless quality and make them as mysterious as the most mysterious dream. The imagination can be equal to a dream in a very substantial way. I wasted a lot of time looking for the profound dreamer in the arts but few artists express the kind of confidence in their inspiration that I would expect. Only William Blake seems to have revered his imagination to the proper degree.

[Eagle Wing]

rimbaud,
are you really sure that other worlds don't "objectively" exist? Physics would seem to suggest otherwise.

[Isaiah Mpski]

you know if you examine things simply in terms of mythic archetypal expression what we are beginning to realize is the so called "mark" of Cain.
Thus the establishment of karma,be it just or not.

The Lord

[Rimbaud]

are you really sure that other worlds don't "objectively" exist? Physics would seem to suggest otherwise. I think physicists are creating myths, a new cosmogony every bit as absurd as the Greek cosmogony. Just today I was reading that some scientists are now questioning the fundamental constants of natural physical laws.

Recent research has found evidence that the value of certain fundamental parameters, such as the speed of light or the invisible glue that holds nuclei together, may have been different in the past.But look at their evidence for this startling theory.

Astronomers study the spectra of this ancient light to determine if the early universe was different than now. Specifically, they look at absorption lines, which are due to gas clouds between us and the quasars. So they are measuring the speed of light as is passes through interstellar clouds and when their measurements vary they assume the speed of light changed rather than the interstellar clouds changed!

[Isaiah Mpski]

Old pond,new frog.Old frog,new pond.Splash.

[daniel]

hi rimbaud,

you write: "Just today I was reading that some scientists are now questioning the fundamental constants of natural physical laws. 'Recent research has found evidence that the value of certain fundamental parameters, such as the speed of light or the invisible glue that holds nuclei together, may have been different in the past."

I discuss this in my new book, but the belief that the laws of the universe are permanent and unchanging constants is just an idea of the human mind, and has no basis in reality. I like Rupert Sheldrake's notion that the "Laws of the Universe" might be more like habits or patterns - he proposes morphogenetic fields and connections of "morphic resonance" in his book Patterns of the Past.

The idea that there are immutable laws of nature was developed in the 17th Century when science was in its infancy and very much under the belief structure of Christian monotheism, which supported the concept of an unchanging and absolute reality.

It is a question of being rigorous with our skepticism.

[brother shamus]

One of the interesting things about shamanism is the fact that while under a 'trance state' the shaman has no memory, but wakes up with a plant in his hand that is an unknown new medicine that his community needs now for a new malady. (referenced in 2012:The Return, if I'm not mistaken.) How can this be defined as going 'into oneself'? Unless, perhaps, we all have infinite information inside us, a la the holographic universe model, and therefore we just look harder and 'rediscover' what we need to know when we need to know it.

[Rimbaud]

The idea that there are immutable laws of nature was developed in the 17th Century when science was in its infancy. Yes, I suppose the laws of physics could be based on false assumptions especially if you assume they cannot change. To suggest they are immutable can only be an assumption.

I certainly don't read a lot on physics but I get the impression that scientists are coming up with unlikely theories just because their measurements or calculations don't give them the expected values. This all started with their attempts to calculate the position of subatomic particles. So they theorize that there are parallel universes or the observer effects the quantum dimension of reality. I would just question the effectiveness of their technology for determining the position of subatomic particles. I doubt that it is an exact science.

[Isaiah Mpski]

That can be said for all of science.

[brother shamus]

You should not read books anymore. you should experience the event, climb the mountain and speak with the creator!

[zenchef]

The Parallels of Quantum Physics and Shamanism
“Now this is meaty stuff”

I am Not a PHD in Physics, but an avid and dangerously ill-equipped novice. But I would state this. In the field of quantum physics many of the fathers, as well as many current day innovators rely on a large amount of potential room for change or growth. The probability wave is a valuable tool in the quantum predictive sciences. It doesn’t state that the equation is true; it only sets a tolerance for a platform of belief that allows for further and continued speculations. Einstein suggested (or maybe stated) that many of these predictions were merely mathematically provable probabilities of what was possible within a system, but not to be interpreted as what actually occurs within a system. The key to the quantum world is the allowance for” possibilities” unlike the unyielding prior sciences that guaranteed a witch-hunt for suggesting that the world is round despite the belief that its flat. It is the consciousness and intention of each probability and experiments intent that shapes the sciences many super-position able outcomes.
With that being said, I see the possibilities of modern shamanism to take form within the parameters of the participant. To my knowledge there are no governing bodies issuing licenses in the dogmas of shamanism (and I have looked). My experience with my practices is certainly far different in interpretation than Joe party who travel on moms credit card to Peru for a week of tripping in the jungle. Never know though, the “vine” might reach in and shake his life into alignment. I feel it is really our own conscious interpretation of our inner journeys, and dreams that dictates its meaning, much like the possibilities of a quantum possibility. In being “too rigorous in our skepticism” we eliminate the opportunities that subtle nuances of the universes guiding energy offers us.
If there is truly a cellular exchange between myself and the entities of the vehicle used in a psycho nautical experience, then certainly there is a tangible pathway between the dimensions despite the semantics we choose to label them with. Thus, creating a more acceptable bridge between dreams, alternate dimensions and our interpretation of reality.
my god, its full of stars......

[brother shamus]

Very eloquently put.

..it only sets a tolerance for a platform of belief that allows for further and continued speculations. The key is to keep an open mind and not steer or be afraid of the results no matter what they are.

I see the possibilities of modern shamanism to take form within the parameters of the participant. If the introduction of the collective consciousness to the process reveals itself do not be suprised or throw out the possibility. I like to think that the collective is trying to reveal itself to us and that we are approching the intellectual level needed to become aware of it.

[craazyman]

If it's true that physical objects, such as a sprout of a plant, can materialize in a shaman's hand during/after a trance session, then the implications for physics seem to be enormous.

I'm not a physicist, but my layman's understanding is that Einstein's famous classical physics equation E=MC2 is not inconsistent with quantum physics, but is a subset of it.

Therefore, the amount of energy required to materialize a physical object, under either classical or quantum physics, would be absolutely enormous--i.e. like an atomic explosion.

Assuming it is true that shamans can materialize physical objects (personally, I don't know what to think about this, I've never seen it and wouldn't put it past some folks to fake it, given human nature, but I'm not a cynic either), then clearly E=MC2 is only a subset of a more expansive process of matter/energy transformation, probably involving the psyche and psychic energies as some sort of doorway or catalyst. And if this is true, then physics, even quantum physics, would have to be totally revised, as would our entire notion of what energy is. Moreover, it would clearly imply that some sort of ideational construct, i.e. some form of directed and ordered thinking, would in and of itself be equivalent to a physical force.

[sidecross]

“A little bit of mass can thus yield enormous energy. The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was fueled by converting less than an ounce of matter into energy; the energy consumed by New York City in a month is less than that contained in the newspaper you're holding. Far from having no energy, the baseball that has come to rest on the china shop's floor contains enough energy to keep an average car running continuously at 65 m.p.h. for about 5,000 years.”

This quote is by Brian Greene from an Op-Ed in the NYT on 9/30/05.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/30/opinion/30greene.html?ex=1153713600&en=923b7a10adda0790&ei=5070

[zenchef]

If the introduction of the collective consciousness to the process reveals itself do not be surprised or throw out the possibility. I like to think that the collective is trying to reveal itself to us and that we are approaching the intellectual level needed to become aware of it. Great truths spoken here. it is truly through each of us as individuals. the premise that some floating head is gonna part the sky and peek thru the clouds and yell at everyone on the planet "wake the freak up!!" seems unlikely. However with that being said, it is my belief that we as part of the collective conscious (or mostly unconscious globally at the moment) at our current paradigm highly supports your view. We do collectively allow the divisions and contentions that we live within. If this is true then events such as 9-11, Katrina, the tsunami will be alarm clocks that will provide a mutual awakening. IT will be when, our intellects have been stripped down to an absolute human necessity to allow the ushering of a new paradigm. Now our culture, mostly in the west, are too comfortable to have to assume any truly radical changes. Greg Braden talks about the shift in consciousness from our dependency in current technology to an awareness that we, humans, already posses. The knowledge that all of our insightful machines provide us now. Our most powerful catscans, mammography’s, and image technologies that look inside our bodies are abilities already laying dormant within our massive and powerful selves. Our long range satellites and space probes that travel on inefficient fuels to discover life outside our planet, resides within the power of our minds. Daniel talks about the progression thru the ages, in almost Fibonacci numerical type digression from stone thru iron. Each age progressively taking much smaller amounts of time and years to complete, with the end result of passing into the nano-age perhaps only taking a few moments. The change occurring “in the twinkling of an eye” to awareness. It is here within these current possibilities that the contemporary shaman bridges the gap of needs and belief for the masses of lost wandering spirits waiting to be ushered into the new era. We as the hopefully advanced searchers, hold great hope in our minds and great responsibility for these powers.

[gandydancer]

Originally posted by craazyman:
If it's true that physical objects, such as a sprout of a plant, can materialize in a shaman's hand during/after a trance session, then the implications for physics seem to be enormous.

I'm not a physicist, but my layman's understanding is that Einstein's famous classical physics equation E=MC2 is not inconsistent with quantum physics, but is a subset of it.

Therefore, the amount of energy required to materialize a physical object, under either classical or quantum physics, would be absolutely enormous--i.e. like an atomic explosion.

Assuming it is true that shamans can materialize physical objects (personally, I don't know what to think about this, I've never seen it and wouldn't put it past some folks to fake it, given human nature, but I'm not a cynic either), then clearly E=MC2 is only a subset of a more expansive process of matter/energy transformation, probably involving the psyche and psychic energies as some sort of doorway or catalyst. And if this is true, then physics, even quantum physics, would have to be totally revised, as would our entire notion of what energy is. Moreover, it would clearly imply that some sort of ideational construct, i.e. some form of directed and ordered thinking, would in and of itself be equivalent to a physical force.I had something materialize once... I will tell about it:

It was over 30 years ago when I had my first mystical experience. I was married with two small children. I loved my husband and he loved me, but he had been unable to stop drinking and when he did drink he was violent, and I knew it just couldn't go on for my own good, and for our children. Back then there was very little literature for anyone doing an inward journey--not that they weren't our there, but who had heard of Jung, for instance, back then? I do remember that the book on parent/adult/child was out, and I was reading and working with that.

Anyway one night when my husband didn't come home from work (was out drinking) I sat in the burnt orange swivel rocker eating potato chips and drinking Dr. Pepper (funny how the complete image along with the emotions gets burnt into one's memory), and in total umm, umm, NOT frustration, not desperation, and not exactly "thy will not mine" either, though that would be close... All I can say is that I just could not try anymore to force change, no matter how hard I tried. I took my wedding ring from my finger, something I had not done in my 11 years of marriage, and instantly It happened.

Well, as you know, to report a mystical experience is not easy--one has to use words as best one knows...and I have never been especailly good with words anyway. The best I cay say is that "the burden was lifted". Physically I could feel it and my body felt actually lighter. Please understand, this was not merely a psychological change/acceptance/etc., this was a willingness to accept my true...path?, to move into my flow?...certainly here I do not know the right words. What I can say is that that mystical experience did instantly change me. In part it was the method that I have continued to use for my growth, what I call the "Blood, sweat and tears" method, but it was complimented by what some call "Amazing Grace", and I do too--though that may be another post. But the moment of change came in an instant. It is as though the very elements in my body went through a change.

But I am posting about something materializing, so I will go on to that. Apparently it was Christmas time because I remember that our tree was up. And apparently someone had given me a small pot with three small spring flowering bulbs in it. They had already flowered and I had put the pot under the tree, which was in a south facing window. Now as any gardener knows, bulbs only flower once and after that they work on putting energy back into their roots for the next years bloom. But when I got up the next morning after my mystical experience, well lo and behold!, my little plant was in full bloom!

I never knew exactly where in my brain to put that experience. I knew it happened, but I didn't have a "miracle" catagory in my brain to file such a thing under--I still don't. It wasn't untill I read Peat's explaination of "synchronicity" that I could even begin to understand it.

Here is an excellent F. David Peat essay on synchronicity:

Opps, won't work. I will try to post it on a new post.

[gandydancer]

Peat's essay:

http://twm.co.nz/ISSS_synchr.html

[zenchef]

so what has been the outcome of your life since then? To me that is as convincing as the flowers.

PS. thanks for the great posting

[craazyman]

Interesting. That would seem to be quite a synchronicity if not a materialization. I've often thought that any sort of physical growth from the life force, like a flower or a plant or even a person, would be seen as instantaneous and ex-nihilo from the perspective of an expanded time frame. That is, if someone were traveling close to the speed of light and could be aware of earth, they'd see things popping up right and left seemingly out of nowhere. Anyway, this is sort of an "after the bong hits in the college dorm" kind of thought, but it may be somehow tied to the forms of materialization at hand here.

I witnessed something once that might qualify as a materialization. My girlfried at the time and I had lived in a cramped studio apartment for a few years and life stresses and relationship stresses had worn us out. Both of us needed a break from each other--big time.

There was something about the chemistry of our psyches that seemed to coalesce to attract odd things. We'd witnessed strange lights/UFOs in the sky on a few occassions, and she swore she'd seen flying saucers over New York City one afternoon. She thought she'd seen ghosts in the apartment on several occassions. Though I didn't see anything (although I had once a few years earlier, before we met). She did not have the kind of personality that would make this stuff up or imagine it.

One day when I came home a black purse was neatly hanging on the ash tray fixture on the wall in the hallway between the two elevator doors. The purse looked familiar and the whole sight of it there seemed strange, with sort of an intensity about it. I took the purse with me into the apartment.

When she got home that night I showed it to her and told her where I found it. Her face turned pale and she said "That's mine, how did it get out there?"

I had no idea. She said she never used it anymore and last she knew it was buried deep in a drawer in her dresser. We both wondered if the building handyman or someone was playing a trick on us. He had access to the apartment for occasional repairs, but he wasn't that type of person and had no motive and I'd been on good terms with him for years.

Afterwards I thought maybe she had done it, out of some sort of pyschological compulsion. But she wasn't like that. And she swore she didn't. To this day I have no idea how it happened. This was a while back and she's no longer in my life.

[ July 23, 2006, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: craazyman ]

[Isaiah Mpski]

Has anyone come up with the reason for the blackouts up there in the dogshit Capitol of the world Lord CM.
Maybe that was an external catalytic phenomenazation too.Too much dogshit.I really love giving you yankees a hard time.
It was a cool 66 degrees this morning on the lake.The catfish are jumping and it's time to plant the fall garden.Carrots,turnips,mustard,onions,corn,squas,a nd other melons.

I think it was some sort of terrorism personally,that caused the blackout.Have you heard of the E-Bomb developed by the Pakistanis I think.Wipes out computor chips.The components would fit in any standard size suitcase and since it is "nonlethal" to humans the results would be seen in other ways.
Head to the Mountains.The Mountains of Bush.lol

[gandydancer]

Thanks Zenchef, yes good point.

At the time it happened my husband had started drinking again after two years of sobriety and I knew I couldn't go back to that. But on the other hand nowhere in my mind could I even think of divorce. I'll skip all the stuff about dependent relationships--most likely you know couples who are in similar situations?--back and forth: drinking (or whatever), fights, crying, sorry I'll change, OK, but this is the last time, and on and on.

But after my experience I was different. I didn't know how it could be (since I never thought of divorce as an option), but I knew I would no longer live with a drinking alcoholic. I feel that it wasn't just in my head, it felt that it was actually in my body also, like a chemical or magnetic shift. Which is not to say that I didn't have to work very hard to keep "the burden" from coming back and weighting my shoulders down!

My husband went for a 30 day in-treatment program and I went in for a 3 day family treatment that was part of his program. I can remember feeling those 3 days that I was swimming upstream and just trying to just stay above water, and losing groud--what a tremendous struggle it is to deal with a projected shadow!--not that I saw it that way back then. But as you can imagine, after so many years of dealing with only my mate's shadow side of the marriage, as is typical in an alcoholic relationship, I saw any suggestion that there was anything wrong with me as an attack that I needed to defend... Perhaps I could say that I was struggling to keep my ego intact?

I came home from the experience deeply troubled, and after a few weeks I went for psychological help myself. Unfortunately there is not much good psychological help out there, but I was fortunate to get excellent help. I remember two dreams from that time. In one I dreamed that I was in a room completely lined with shelves and all the pages of paper that had been on the shelves were on the floor. I looked at "the pages of my mind" and wondered how I'd ever get them back up on the shelves. I was dismayed at the project and the psychologist reminded me that it needn't be done overnight, but would take time. I also dreamed that I was in bed and a nurse came to check me, apparently to see if I had got my period yet, and I had--there was red blood on the sheet. The significance of that dream is obvious: I had grown from girl to woman; dependent child to independent adult.

My story is getting long here so I will cut it short. As you know, when one person in a relationship experiences a psychological change and not the other, the relationship will end. My husband and I were divorced and have never again had contact. There was never any hostility and my two daughters have had a relationship with their dad...which has not been easy for them since he went on to remarry three times and has continued to drink. I have always said to them that we can not judge their father, as who knows what each of of came into this life to accomplish--perhaps the one that has suffered so much was more "brave" than any of us to put so much on their plate to deal with this time around.

So, there it is. My "miracle" and my days of feeling that I was walking on air were given to me in an Amazing Grace sort of way. But there is no getting around the fact that you will come back down to earth and need to do the work we humans need to do. I have had two major mystical experiences related to doing inner work since that time, so by the time of the third one I pretty much "knew the ropes". With the third one it lasted for several weeks, not continually in that state, of course.

It seems to me that the great mystic Jesus lived in that state, and beyond of course to places I have never been, but for me, I can take only so much of it.

[craazyman]

Isaiah, I thank God I'm not there. Haven't been there since March. Taking a break from all the dog shit LOL! I dunno what the problem is up there with ConEd.

I was there in the 2003 August blackout. That was sort of a social event at first after we all realized it wasn't a terrorist attack. All the bars were open and neighbors that hadn't talked for years were elbow to elbow drinking beers by candlelight. But by the next afternoon the vibe was getting heavy and scary.

Another day or two and all hell would have broken loose. No one in any position of power or authority apparently had a plan for a prolonged blackout in New York City.

Toss one of those bass a Shenandoah popper for me, with a 6 weight fly rod, and then fry that sucker up for dinner. You can fish with bait too, if you want. :D :D

[zenchef]

Gandy,
I beleve that life is the miracle, the meditation and the manifestation. I think that in our "immediate gratification" world we want something to appear in our hand like a twig, while far more powerful objects materialize into our lives and our presence than we blindly choose to neglect because we dont identify them as Magical.

My "miracle" and my days of feeling that I was walking on air were given to me in an Amazing Grace sort of way as it does for all of us who choose to open ourselve to the dynamic possibilities presented to us each and every day.

It seems to me that the great mystic Jesus lived in that state, and beyond of course to places I have never been, but for me, I can take only so much of it.
it is my belief that Jesus, Buddha, and many other great avatars understood this place, however still walked on our world as well. Certainly the world imposed on them (obviously in jesus case) and more admittedly in buddhas case that life still continued to challenge. As you said, this is a testing ground for us humans and our mastery of the cosmic powers hidden in our emotions. the avatars werre obviously very well traveled and ancient beings who were finally at a place to leave their lasting messages with us. But they wore shoes, clothes just like us. they dealt with family difficulties just like us. They had people who adored them as well as hated them, just like us. I like to think that we all have the mastery potential to become, as they.
namaste

It is the view from the top, and the road to the top that moves me more than the top itself

[Isaiah Mpski]

Good posts zenchef.
No Lord CM we don't have to use much bait.Since I am able,at times,to walk on water I just sneak up and grab em.
I've gotten real lazy with all this hot weather and haven't gotten a fall garden.If any of you explorers are planning to drive to BM you might think about heading this way a little early and help me get in a fall GARDEN sos weuns can have something to fall back on if we have a bad winter.
Be sure and bring something to smoke if your inclined.I can furnish the wine.
Exit 262 Interstate 40 where it crosses Lake Eufaula.There is a little store and filling station there and they can point you in the direction of my gate.Dr Sun.tele 918-473-5532

[brother shamus]

I'm going to BM from the west or I would stop by. Are you going? Tikidom is our camp.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Br Shamus,I might go back to the festival in Santa Fe which is held at the same time,but that is as far west as I will get.
If you can promise me a night with a couple of virgins(or almost virgins as I doubt there are many virgins over the age of 14 at BM) if I came I would consider it.
Females Shamus.Get those other thoughts out of your mind.
And remember I warned you to head to Santa Fe this year.

[brother shamus]

I don't know about the festival in Sante Fe, I do get over there for work every year or so.