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Mars
02-13-2007, 10:51 AM
Some interesting - and some annoying - thoughts in this article...

NYTIMES, February 13, 2007.



It’s been a long 10 years since we’ve heard Carl Sagan beckoning us to consider the possibilities inherent in the “billions” of stars peppering the sky and in the “billions” of neuronal connections spiderwebbing our brains.

In the day, the Cornell astronomer, Pulitzer Prize-winning author of books like “The Dragons of Eden,” “Contact,” “Pale Blue Dot” and “The Demon-Haunted World,” impresario of the PBS program “Cosmos” and Johnny Carson regular was one of the world’s most famous and eloquent unbelievers, an apostle of cosmic wonder, critic of nuclear arms and a champion of science’s duty to probe and question without limit, including the claims of religion. He died of pneumonia after a series of bone marrow transplants in December 1996.

In his absence, the public discourse on his favorite issues — the fate of the planet, the beauty and mystery of the cosmos — has not fared well. The teaching of evolution in public schools has become a bitter bone of contention; NASA tried to abandon the Hubble Space Telescope and censor talk of climate change; and of course, religious fanatics crashed jetliners into the World Trade Center, leading to a war in the Middle East that has awakened memories in some corners of the Crusades.

Now, however, Dr. Sagan has rejoined the cosmic debate from the grave. The occasion is the publication last month of “The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God” (Penguin). The book is based on a series of lectures exploring the boundary between science and religion that Dr. Sagan gave in Glasgow in 1985, and it was edited by Ann Druyan, his widow and collaborator.

Reading Dr. Sagan’s new book is like running into an old friend at a noisy party, discovering he still has all his hair, and repairing to the den for a quiet, congenial drink.

“I would suggest that science is, at least in part, informed worship,” he writes at the beginning of a discussion that includes the history of cosmology, a travel guide to the solar system, the reason there are hallucinogen receptors in the brain, and the meaning of the potential discovery — or lack thereof — of extraterrestrial intelligence.

Never afraid to venture into global politics, Dr. Sagan warns at one point of the danger that a leader under the sway of religious fundamentalism might not try too hard to avoid nuclear Armageddon, reasoning that it was God’s plan.

“He might be interested to see what that would be like,” Dr. Sagan wrote. “Why slow it down?”

Almost in the same breath, Dr. Sagan acknowledges that religion can engender hope and speak truth to power, as in the civil rights movement in the United States, but that it rarely does.

It’s curious, he says, that no allegedly Christian nation has adopted the Golden Rule as a basis for foreign policy. Rather, in the nuclear age, mutually assured destruction was the policy of choice. “Christianity says that you should love your enemy. It certainly doesn’t say that you should vaporize his children.”

When Saddam Hussein was hanged in December, those words had a haunting resonance.

It was Ms. Druyan’s impatience with religious fundamentalism that led her to resurrect Dr. Sagan’s lectures, which were part of the Gifford Lectures, a prestigious series about natural theology that has been going on since the 19th century.

Ms. Druyan, who co-wrote “Cosmos” and produced the movie “Contact,” based on her husband’s novel, runs Cosmos Studio and was a leader in the aborted effort by the Planetary Society to launch a solar sail from a Russian submarine two years ago. Among her lesser-known achievements is a kiss on the cheek of the science writer Timothy Ferris, which was recorded and included on a record of the sounds of Earth that is part of the Voyager spacecraft now flying out of the solar system. She and Dr. Sagan had planned to use his Gifford lectures as the basis for a new television show called “Ethos,” a sequel to “Cosmos,” about the spiritual implications of the scientific revolution. “I know of no other force that can wean us from our infantile belief that we are the center of the universe,” she said.

But “Ethos” never happened, and the lectures disappeared.

In the wake of Sept. 11 and the attacks on the teaching of evolution in this country, she said, a tacit truce between science and religion that has existed since the time of Galileo started breaking down. “A lot of scientists were mad as hell, and they weren’t going to take it anymore,” Ms. Druyan said over lunch recently.

Some of the books that resulted, such as Richard Dawkins’s “The God Delusion,” have been criticized as shrill, but Ms. Druyan said: “People like Carl and Dawkins are more serious about God than people who just go through the motions. They are real seekers.”

About a year ago, Ms. Druyan went looking for Dr. Sagan’s lectures, eventually finding them filed under “Ethos” in his archive at Cornell, which occupies 1,000 filing cabinets and includes things like his baby pictures and report cards.

Rereading them, she said, “I couldn’t believe how prophetic they were.”

It took about a day for her editor at Penguin to decide to publish them, she said.

She retitled the book — Dr. Sagan had named his lectures “The Search for Who We Are” — as a nod to William James, whose Gifford lectures in 1901 and 1902 became the basis for his book “The Varieties of Religious Experience.”

Ever the questioner, Dr. Sagan asks at one point in his lectures why the God of the Scriptures seems to betray no apparent knowledge of the wider universe that “He or She or It or whatever the appropriate pronoun is” allegedly created. Why not a commandment, for instance, that thou shalt not exceed the speed of light? Or why not engrave the Ten Commandments on the Moon in such a way that they would not be discovered until now, à la the slab in “2001: A Space Odyssey”?

If such an inscription were found, people would ask how it had gotten there, Dr. Sagan writes. “And then there would be various hypotheses, most of which would be very interesting,” he adds dryly.

Near the end of his book, Dr. Sagan parses the difference between belief and science this way: “I think if we ever reach the point where we think we thoroughly understand who we are and where we came from, we will have failed.”

The search for who we are does not lead to complacency or arrogance, he explains. “It goes with a courageous intent to greet the universe as it really is, not to foist our emotional predispositions on it but to courageously accept what our explorations tell us.”

Dr. Sagan was many things, but shrill was not one of them.

The last word may as well go to Dr. Dawkins himself, who in a 1996 book nominated Dr. Sagan as the ideal spokesman for Earth. In a blurb for the new book, Dr. Dawkins said that the astronomer was more than religious, having left behind the priests and mullahs.

“He left them behind, because he had so much more to be religious about,” Dr. Dawkins wrote. “They have their Bronze Age myths, medieval superstitions and childish wishful thinking. He had the universe.”

Isaiah Mpski
02-13-2007, 10:59 AM
Do bad he didn't know the 99 % of the time side effects of chemo and radiation therapies.

K.J
02-13-2007, 11:25 AM
From a Washington Post review of the book:


"Sagan does not deny the existence of God. Nor does he affirm it. As he quips in the lively Q&A section appended to the lectures, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." What Sagan does do is insist on the primacy of scientific method and scientific evidence, and he holds the many and various "proofs" of God's existence up to these scientific standards. Most are found wanting. But Sagan is not harsh in his critiques of religious thought; he is more perplexed by theology's narrow and unimaginative vision."

I am currently reading Stanislav Grof's work, 'Beyond the Brain: Birth, Death, and Transcendence in Psychotherapy' (http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Brain-Transendence-Psychotherapy-Transpersonal/dp/0873958993/sr=8-7/qid=1171398550/ref=pd_bbs_7/002-7894082-0806427?ie=UTF8&s=books). Reading through just the first few chapters will quickly enlighten one as to why the idea of holding "the many and various "proofs" of God's existence up to these scientific standards" is a foolhardy endeavor if those standards are based on the old mechanistic (Newtonian-Cartesian) paradigm of science.

drew hempel
02-13-2007, 11:40 AM
People love to mention "The Demon Haunted World" as proof about how stupid shamanistic folks are. In fact, I read that book and was amazed how poor Sagan's logic was! It's amazing how "big brain" scientists really are not any different than ordinary thinkers when it comes to accepting "common sense" as the foundation for their thinking. Chomsky points this out -- how in social science no one is allowed to go against "common sense" (i.e. the U.S. spreads democracy, communism is bad, etc.)

Here's some great reviews by academics who trash Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/bookreviews/11-4/sagan.html

Mars
02-13-2007, 11:41 AM
Beyond the Brain: Birth, Death, and Transcendence in Psychotherapy

Doing a little book-buying and added it to my cart. Looking forward to it. What are Grof's virtues?

K.J
02-13-2007, 11:48 AM
Doing a little book-buying and added it to my cart. Looking forward to it. What are Grof's virtues?

You're in for a treat! Grof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Grof) was instrumental in getting the transpersonal psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology)movement off the ground and his model of human development is astounding (for me, it adds extra value to Ken Wilber's models, which Grof and the entire transpersonal psychology movement was heavily influenced by). Grof has the added experience of supervising over 3,000 LSD therapy sessions during his long career with psychedelic medicines. Grof and his wife also developed a unique non-drug therapy called holotropic breathwork (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holotropic_Breathwork) that allows one to reach the transpersonal states.

Mars
02-13-2007, 11:54 AM
Again, the problem is that when Sagan refers to "religion" it seems to me like he is making a broad generalization enfolding every philosophical endeavor outside the scientific sphere together as if they were the same. Spiritual practice can be moral without being righteous, mystical without being absolute and meaningful without losing one's critical faculty. There are thousands of different types of spiritual paths in the world outside of the sphere of organized religion. Why is it so hard for scientific naturalists and self-proclaimed atheists to make this nakedly obvious and common-sense distinction and speak to it?

Caprinardo Delirio
02-19-2007, 05:05 AM
just a thing: grof and most of the transpersonal psychology movement were not influenced by wilber's models. especially grof, who does not have much leftover for wilber's efforts anymore, which you would naturally expect when concidering than grof comes from a medical background with decades of actual therapeutic practice, with substances and breathwork, whereas ken wilber have no clinical or therapeutic background, and for all his efforts to create a closed and true-to-itself theory/model of the conscious and unconscious mind, wilber was hard pressed to include the notion of the birth-trauma, the importance of death and dying, and many more uniquely widespread human phenomenons, and while he finally did manage to include these all important areas of the psyche, he treats them rather laissez-fairely and only marginally, since his first and foremost mission is complete his own preconcived notions of what the human being really is all about, and he has a burning wish to be the crown achiever in the realm of humanistic ideology. grof and his case stories show very clearly that insights of genuine mysticism and patalogical psychosis' are very closely interrelated and much more paradoxical to unravel than what we all would feel comfortable in assuming, just as wilber is, and he simply refuses to deal with many of the problems and insights that has come from these many decades in inner exploration. mystic insight and bi-polar psychosis has nothing to do with each other in wilber's world. just one prime example of why we are free to ignore him completely. of course there are many parts of wilbers writings that can be consumed without either you or the particular ideas should be as malfunctioning as the overaching concepts of wilber's grand ideas and wilber himself. he does have various good insights, but his goal and his efforts i would call quasi-pathological in themselves. same goes for his personna. hope that was my wilber rant for this month.

as for grof's crown achievements:

1. putting the birth trauma back on the map.

2. proving nearly all paranormal phenomena to be common and reoccuring parts of the psychedelic experiences.

3. outlining some of the smartest ways to look integratedly at religion, mysticism and the scientific view of the world.

4. sheding light on the importance of death as a constituent of the psychic makeup of every human being.

5. advancing and updating an integrated vision (not theory) of how the models of late freud, jung, campbell, the shamanic cultures, the eastern cultures, and the monotheistic cultures can be seen to be not so incommensurably different but actually revolving very much around the same suns and sons.

6. in short showing the most fully comprehensive and best understood vision of the human mind. very much so too, for those familiar with the psychedelic ocean, occult experiences, ect.


i'm currently reading his latest book, published my MAPS, 'the ultimate journey: consciousness and the mystery of death' - which is the updated and compressed version of 'beyond the brain' and 'the realms of the human unconscious' as far as i can gather from it now. get it from maps's site, they were kind enough to ship me another book, free of charge, after the first one went missing in the mail(!), and they need our support these days as well, so..

grof also coined the term 'transpersonal'.

k.j. i'm sorry for bashing someone you like. i believe that you can get an enormous amount of good from wilber, but i also think that's he's rising fast to become a very totalitarian, very fascistoid-like, thinker and cult-leader, and i feel it's in it's rightful place to critique him. i just hope you can laugh it off, and you don't think that it should say anything about you or whatever...
btw, whatever happened to us being friends on tribe?

another btw, did you all hear the story of how carl sagan went to terence mckenna's house to tell him a thing or two? funny stuff..

Mars
02-20-2007, 07:40 AM
5. advancing and updating an integrated vision (not theory) of how the models of late freud, jung, campbell, the shamanic cultures, the eastern cultures, and the monotheistic cultures can be seen to be not so incommensurably different but actually revolving very much around the same suns and sons.

Thank you for your detailed description of Grof's work. You statement above in particular has really got me excited about reading him.

I also appreciate your comments on Wilbur. They were prescient, in that I had been thinking of creating a post with the title "Wilbur Beefs" to consolidate the widespread criticism I've come across about him and the Integral Institute on this board. I am no deep reader of his stuff - only part of "No Boundaries" which I confess I did get a lot out of...

he does have various good insights, but his goal and his efforts i would call quasi-pathological in themselves

Pathological in what sense? His cultish ardor? Absolutism? Intolerance of other ideas?

Thom
02-20-2007, 07:57 AM
Yeah, thanks Cap. I've also become very interested in Grof after reading Christopher Bache (whose "Dark Night, Early Dawn" I highly recommend).

K.J
02-20-2007, 09:50 AM
just a thing: grof and most of the transpersonal psychology movement were not influenced by wilber's models.

You're quite mistaken here Cap. In 'Beyond the Brain: Birth, Death, and Transcendence in Psychotherapy' Grof explicitly gives credit to Wilber for his work in the transpersonal psychology realm. He even spends a bit of time going over Wilbers model in the book. Now, that said, Grof does have some issues with Wilbers model, which he also goes over in this book. I happen to agree with Grof on both accounts: Wilber has contributed in a very important ways to transpersonal psychology, but his model has its limits. I wish I had the book with me right now so that I could quote Grof at length about Wilbers contributions.

K.J
02-20-2007, 10:00 AM
k.j. i'm sorry for bashing someone you like. i believe that you can get an enormous amount of good from wilber, but i also think that's he's rising fast to become a very totalitarian, very fascistoid-like, thinker and cult-leader, and i feel it's in it's rightful place to critique him. i just hope you can laugh it off, and you don't think that it should say anything about you or whatever...
btw, whatever happened to us being friends on tribe?

another btw, did you all hear the story of how carl sagan went to terence mckenna's house to tell him a thing or two? funny stuff..

No need to apologize, Cap. I welcome any honest, intelligent and constructive critique on any subject whatsoever. I have gained much from my study of Wilber, but he's far from my only influence, and I'm certainly not prone to idol worship. My method is to take the good and discard the bad from any system of thought, not to blindly follow. I too find Grof's model much more holistic than Wilbers for all of the reasons you mentioned above.

As for Tribe, I no longer hang out there. My stay was short lived. I just didn't find it that useful for me.

Sagan and McKenna? That'd be an interesting story indeed!

Mars
02-20-2007, 11:28 AM
another btw, did you all hear the story of how carl sagan went to terence mckenna's house to tell him a thing or two? funny stuff..

Does it start with "An astronomer, a psychedelic and a transpersonal psychologist walk into a bar..."?

Caprinardo Delirio
02-23-2007, 02:53 AM
You're quite mistaken here Cap. In 'Beyond the Brain: Birth, Death, and Transcendence in Psychotherapy' Grof explicitly gives credit to Wilber for his work in the transpersonal psychology realm. He even spends a bit of time going over Wilbers model in the book. Now, that said, Grof does have some issues with Wilbers model, which he also goes over in this book. I happen to agree with Grof on both accounts: Wilber has contributed in a very important ways to transpersonal psychology, but his model has its limits. I wish I had the book with me right now so that I could quote Grof at length about Wilbers contributions.

ok, you're right. i do know that grof was interested in wilber and that they have exchanged ideas from time to time, it's just that their approaches almost are antithetical, and over time, eventhough grof was intersted in the areas wilber was synthesizing, grof ended up having to rely almost solely on the clinical work and the finding therefrom, since they both surpasses, in certain senses, the ideological possibilities of wilbers vision, while also simply not would let themselves (the findings, data, peoples experiences, his own ect.) set in the models wilber was constructing. wilber is certainly on somthing, in integrating areas of concern that seem impossibly polar extremes, ect, but so are so many others, which i really suspect will be seen to be much more benificial in the long run, for the broader world, while wilber will be mainly remembered for tending to the cultish disposed, keeping them subtly manic, yes..

mars,
Pathological in what sense? His cultish ardor? Absolutism? Intolerance of other ideas?
yeah, that... and facts like his stessing of the importance of bench-pressing and these things as some of the most important parts of a 'spiritual living' as it keeps the body young, longer, so forth.. plus, he's trying to cloak long known findings of the west (jung, watts, campbell) of the east as his own findings.. along with this awful stuart davis, which is just a wank fuck that should stay in his hall-of-mirrors bedroom, and wilber should just point people to all these books that need no retelling. his 'spiral dynamics' mission, and his colouring of all people sometimes border on a hitler-level of madness, and it has been shown, convincingly i think, that wilber is im fact a 'blue' person, not the superior whatever color it is.. post-green anyway.. there is alot of insane ideological thinking going on around the integral institute and their unindividuated followers. bla bla bla...

sagan dropped by mckenna's house to explain to him why his asymptotic approach to the apocalypse of connectivity, was deluded or somthing to that effect. which mckenna, of course, didn't really accept.. i'd love to read a transcript of that conversation, but it was mentioned by mckenna, only breifly in that conversation with rupert sheldrake called 'forms and mysteries'

Caprinardo Delirio
02-23-2007, 03:11 AM
i have a lot of grof mp3s and avis and what not.. as soon as i get my own computer up and running, i'll make a pack for those who would want it.