Kali not Kali (mistake in "2012"?)

[earinsound]

In "2012," on page 10, is mentioned the Hindu age of decline Kali Yuga "named for the destroyer goddess and dark mother." I'm not a Hindu scholar, but I think the "Kali" in Kali Yuga does not refer to the "destroyer goddess" but to the Kali (male demon) who is the evil manifestation (or opposite?) of Vishnu. This Kali is not "depicted dancing on a corpse [...]" but is actually an ash-colored, foul smelling, long tongued demon.

A male demon, not a female goddess.

+++

So far I'm really enjoying this book...the Introduction is something, in my 'present state of mind and concern' I would've written!

[Chiel]

How about that? Could he be right? Would mean a lot for your book.

[Chiel]

Hey, earinsound, Daniel, others,

It wasn't hard to find the correct information on the name Kali. Wipikedia points out the common errors in the use of the name. Indeed, the Kali of the Kali Yuga is another than the godess Kali. He is a demon.
After rereading some of the things in 2012 relating to the Kali Yuga, I find that in any next edition, alterations will have to be made to either explain, or correct the use of the godess Kali in the book.
Actually, I'm a bit troubled by this, because one reason to be quite blown away by the book, was what was said about Kali Yuga, Shakti, Kali, male-female relationships and the state of the world. This all appears to crumble if the godess Kali is not correctly involved.
I hope, Daniel, that you will reply to this thread, since I feel it is of crucial interest for anybody reading the book.

All the best,
Chiel

[Thom]

Interesting.

I once knew a girl called Carly - she was very beautiful and also verry violent. Fun at first in a Sid and Nancy way, but eventually, annoying. Maybe Daniel will also ditch his Kali.

[fnord1972]

I just finished the book, I liked it by the way, but I am also curious as to why the misunderstanding of 'Kali's'?

Thanks!
Fnord

[fnord1972]

I suppose we will not be getting any answer to this thread?

[sidecross]

Sadly daniel has not been able to afford an editor to help in these matters, and he has shown in the past to not take criticism easily.

His absence from this thread is something that I have grown to accept and to a degree understand; I wish it were not the situation.

[fnord1972]

I wish that Daniel would see that this is just a simple error, once he can acknowledge that, he can move on.

Regardless of what actually happens in 2012, I did enjoy the book. I hope there is a conscience shift in the solar system/universe, we shall see...

[Caprinardo Delirio]

2012 vs. Tao

[daniel]

i don't feel the evidence is in about Kali. As with the double meaning of Maya (indigenous Mesoamerican culture and the Hindu concept of the magical creative power of the Gods used to create and maintain the physical universe), I would not worry about the meaning of Kali and the Kali Yuga having multiple vectors. Many thinkers that I deeply respect have made the association between the Kali Yuga and the goddess Kali, and I stand by their reasoning.

[Chiel]

Hi Daniel, others,

You wrote that you stand by the reasoning of respected thinkers. That's what I would do, so could you please share with us (with me) this reasoning? Either by expanding on it yourself, or by giving a link to a website, or even a book, in which this reasoning is put forward? I would be grateful, since I can't seem to find it myself.

I have an intuition that the interpretation that you use for your book is in essence a good one, but that there is also something missing, some preciseness, if you will.

Maybe, and this is just a little balloon I'm letting up to get a discussion started, the demon Kali is like a vessel, that returns periodically, at the end of a great time cycle that includes all the Yuga's. This vessel can contain different froms, different energies each time it visits (I'm thinking fractally here, if you catch my drift) and this time, it contains the energy of a godess, who's name is, quite coincidentally, Kali.

Just a thought, I am curious of yours,
Chiel

p.s. If you find it hard to deal with criticism, as has been suggested in this thread: GET OVER IT. (pun intended, but then again...)

[Caprinardo Delirio]

apparently from reading about the various movements within hinduism there are also varying interpretations of the deities, as apparently some tantric schools identify kali the "destroyer" goddess with the brahman itself! seems a pretty intense mission statement to me. daniel said at one time his next book was to be on the subject of tantra, maybe he'll make the same jump?

it really doesn't seem to hold water to identify the goddess kali with the kali of the kali yuga, if one is to give any credit to the order and meaning of hinduism itself, but if it's indeed a thought experiment to intrigue like the facinating notings of the similar words in the mayan and tibetan languages, also in 2012, then i have no problem with it. but i don't take all that literal at all. i mean if you believe that the brink of destruction we're pushed towards is first and foremost a gender issue, i suggest you keep it in the family, and also suggest to embracingly acknowledge the rather trivial irrelevance of any actual gender specifics, since all masculine, all feminine modalities for manifestation reside in totality within every being, like i said, regardless of reproductive organs.

but you don't really believe that! :skeptic:

[Lowlight]

Many people generalize to the extreme when taking things from Hinduism. Many Scholars now dont even recognise Hinduism as a religion such is it multiplicity of beliefs and practices. 'Hinduism' is a Western construct from the days of the British empire. Kali Yuga is not Kali the Goddess. To say so is a mistake in relation to the actual traditions. However if a link is made out of conjecture/theorization then fair enough. Everyone else does it, just dont think that you are representing the living Indian tradition by doing so. I would however mention this in any reprints/editions as it will reflect on the work and your scholarly credentials negatively to those who know otherwise.

Yes Carp you are right by the way, some Trantra schools see Kali as Brahman, in which mode 'she' becomes neuter and know has Maha Kali.

[Caprinardo Delirio]

i'd really love to know much more about "hinduism", especially the hierarchies of deities and their complex meanings and relationships, but also about the entire social system which it is. from the scolars i've read on hinduism it became very clear that hinduism as such involves absolutely every aspect of their culture, from their legal system right down into table manners and common costumes of courtesy, and it actually seems pretty remarkable and beautiful even to someone who went through the typical anti-hierarchical, anti-orthodoxic mode of growing up. stan grof has also made very interesting cases showing that, as he put's it, the hindu deities and their stories are actually "maps of consciousness" which in turn can be said of most every mythological system, if your dose is dedicated enough and you're personally unlocked enough to bypass biography and go straight to the collective source..

but just the very very elaborate world of the hindu cosmology is enough to intrigue me madly, especially if it's actually this interior mapping that was undertaken by yogic shamans traversing inner/outer space, which is naturally a wonderful thing to be thinking.

[pepe3leches]

Nice link here: http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/Index.htm

Drew told me that he started speed-reading it and put it down because "Maha Mudra is still dependent on a symbol of the female" My oppinion is that yes, that maha muhdra is identified that way because the book actually describes the orthodox tantric doctrine -- and then denunciates it.

But i could be wrong, since i'm not on it deeply

[Lowlight]

Yeah Cap,

I often get the desire to read tons on Eastern thought. Havnt done so i quite a while. I will usually read 3-4 books on it back to back then leave it for a while, as i do with most subjects i guess.

Have you read R.C.Zaehner's book 'Hinduism'? Probably still the best single volume intro to the whole subject...

[okster]

OK - Let me tell you all about a book.

My friend Grant makes a weekly visit to the Grant Library of Fine Arts at OU to check out the new arrivals. (Just a coincidence that it has his name). I'm not that much into art so he doesn't share much of this with me, but I like religious and spiritual art, so he brought by this really cool book a few weeks ago. Its called Goddess - Divine Energy by Jackie Menzies. This is actually a catalogue for an art show that took place at the Art Gallery of New South Wales in Australia. As such, the book probably had a very limited printing and will probably become very scarce. Here is a link to the show:
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/goddess/
My old machine doesn't do multimedia too good so I haven't looked around much at the site, but it does say that the catalogue is 280 pages, 170 illustrations, $50.00, and out of print.
It can still be found at amazon.co.uk Here is a link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/o/ASIN/0734763964/
(ISBN is 0734763964)
Maybe a bit expensive, especially with the shipping. The book is worth it just for the pictures. But there are many articles on various aspects of Hinduism, Buddhism, and the associated goddesses, written by various scholars.

Daniel - you want this book!

[okster]

and I forgot to mention, there is whole chapter on Kali

[okster]

also - a place to always check for books is bookfinder.com which searches tons of other book sources. I just checked and was happy to find that there are lots of copies of the Goddess book listed there

[klava]

From Wiki, but it represents the "maintream" Hindu view:

Kali Yuga (Devanāgarī: कलियुग, lit. "Age of Kali", "age of vice"), is one of the four stages of development that the world goes through as part of the cycle of Yugas, as described in Hindu scriptures, the others being Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga and Dvapara Yuga. According to the Surya Siddhanta, an astronomical treatise that forms the basis of all Hindu and Buddhist calendars, Kali Yuga began at midnight (00:00) on 18 February 3102 BCE in the proleptic Julian calendar or 23 January 3102 BCE in the proleptic Gregorian calendar, which is also considered by many Hindus to be the time that Krishna left to his own abode. The Kali Yuga is traditionally thought to last 432,000 years.

***
So, we still have about 430,000 years left, rather than being near the end of the KY, as 2012 asserts. However, there are some non-orthodox readings of the vedas that do have the KY ending soon. It's just important to be clear that there are a variety of interpretations of vedic chronology, and that the whole yuga structure does not necessarily line up with the Mayan calendar.

In Sanskrit, the two Kalis apparently are very different words. One is Kay-li, with a long A, and the other Kah-li. That is to say, they are written differently in the sacred script, and therefore are believed to invoke different realities. But perhaps not *so* different...

One has to be very careful of false etymologies, such as the persistence of the word maya across cultures (and hey, why leave out Hawaii, while you're at it?). It may or may not be significant. Is the Hebrew word "shiva," used to characterize a mourning process, derived from or otherwise related to the Sanskrit Shiva (pronounced, incidentally, with a short i, rather than the ee sound of Hindi [and Hebrew])? Mebbe, but there hasn't been a linguistic link discovered between the Semitic and Indo-European tongues, though the similarities in cosmologies (sky gods, father-centrism, mountain deities) have been much-explored.