Castaneda

[daniel]

Personally, I remain uncertain about where to place Castaneda. Was it all fantasy? Some mixture of fantasy and real events? Like many of the phenomena we are looking at (Atlantis, Crop Circles, etc), his work seems to exist on the hypnagogic "borderline", an in-between realm.

I thought I would post this long 1976 interview with Carlos, which I found fascinating.

Sam Keen: Castaneda Interview. 1976
SAM KEEN: As I followed don Juan through your three books, I suspected, at times, that he was the creation of Carlos Castaneda. He is almost to good to be true-a wise old Indian whose knowledge of human nature is superior to almost everybody's.
CARLOS CASTANEDA: The idea that I concocted a person like don Juan is inconceivable. He is hardly the kind of figure my European intellectual tradition would have led me to invent. The truth is much stranger. I wasn't even prepared to make the changes in my life that my association with don Juan involved.
KEEN: How and where did you meet don Juan and become his apprentice?
CASTANEDA: I was finishing my undergraduate study at UCLA and was planning to go to graduate school in anthropology. I was interested in becoming a professor and thought I might begin in the proper way by publishing a short paper on medicinal plants. I couldn't have cared less about finding a weirdo like don Juan. I was in a bus depot in Arizona with a high-school friend of mine. He pointed out an old Indian man to me and said he knew about peyote and medicinal plants. I put on my best airs and introduced myself to don Juan and said: "I understand you know a great deal about peyote. I am one of the experts on peyote (I had read Weston La Barre's The Peyote Cult) and it might be worth your while to have lunch and talk with me." Well, he just looked at me and my bravado melted. I was absolutely tongue-tied and numb. I was usually very aggressive and verbal so it was a momentous affair to be silenced by a look. After that I began to visit him and about a year later he told me he had decided to pass on to me the knowledge of sorcery he had learned from his teacher.
KEEN: Then don Juan is not an isolated phenomenon. Is there a community of sorcerers that shares a secret knowledge?
CASTANEDA: Certainly. I know three sorcerers and seven apprentices and there are many more. If you read the history of the Spanish conquest of Mexico, you will find that the Catholic inquisitors tried to stamp out sorcery because they considered it the work of the devil. It has been around for many hundreds of years. Most of the techniques don Juan taught me are very old.
KEEN: Some of the techniques that sorcerers use are in wide use in other occult groups. Persons often use dreams to find lost articles, and they go on out-of-the-body journeys in their sleep. But when you told how don Juan and his friend don Genero made your car disappear in broad daylight I could only scratch my head. I know that a hypnotist can create an illusion of the presence or absence of an object. Do you think you were hypnotized?
CASTANEDA: Perhaps, something like that. But we have to begin by realizing, as don Juan says, that there is much more to the world than we usually acknowledge. Our normal expectations about reality are created by a social consensus. We are taught how to see and understand the world. The trick of socialization is to convince us that the descriptions we agree upon define the limits of the real world. What we call reality is only one way of seeing the world, a way that is supported by a social consensus.
KEEN: Then a sorcerer, like a hypnotist, creates an alternative world by building up different expectations and manipulating cues to produce a social consensus.
CASTANEDA: Exactly. I have come to understand sorcery in terms of Talcott Parsons' idea of glosses. A gloss is a total system
of perception and language. For instance, this room is a gloss. We have lumped together a series of isolated perceptions-floor, ceiling, window, lights, rugs, etc.-to make a totality. But we had to be taught to put the world together in this way. A child reconnoiters the world with few preconceptions until he is taught to see things in a way that corresponds to the descriptions everybody agrees on. The world is an agreement. The system of glossing seems to be somewhat like walking. We have to learn to walk, but once we learn we are subject to the syntax of language and the mode of perception it contains.
KEEN: So sorcery, like art, teaches a new system of glossing. When, for instance, van Gogh broke with the artistic tradition and painted "The Starry Night" he was in effect saying: here is a new way of looking at things. Stars are alive and they whirl around in their energy field.
CASTANEDA: Partly. But there is a difference. An artist usually just rearranges the old glosses that are proper to his membership. Membership consists of being an expert in the innuendoes of meaning that are contained within a culture. For instance, my primary membership like most educated Western men was in the European intellectual world. You can't break out of one membership without being introduced into another. You can only rearrange the glosses.
KEEN: Was don Juan resocializing you or desocializing you? Was he teaching you a new system of meanings or only a method of stripping off the old system so that you might see the world as a wondering child?
CASTANEDA: Don Juan and I disagree about this. I say he was reglossing me and he says he was deglossing me. By teaching me sorcery he gave me a new set of glosses, a new language and a new way of seeing the world. Once I read a bit of the linguistic philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein to don Juan and he laughed and said: "Your friend Wittgenstein tied the noose too tight around his neck so he can't go anywhere."
KEEN: Wittgenstein is one of the few philosophers who would have understood don Juan. His notion that there are many different
language games-science, politics, poetry, religion, metaphysics, each with its own syntax and rules-would have allowed him to understand sorcery as an alternative system of perception and meaning.
CASTANEDA: But don Juan thinks that what he calls seeing is apprehending the world without any interpretation; it is pure wondering perception. Sorcery is a means to this end. To break the certainty that the world is the way you have always been taught you must learn a new description of the world-sorcery-and then hold the old and the new together. Then you will see that neither description is final. At that moment you slip between the descriptions; you stop the world and see. You are left with wonder; the true wonder of seeing the world without interpretation.
KEEN: Do you think it is possible to get beyond interpretation by using psychedelic drugs?
CASTANEDA: I don't think so. That is my quarrel with people like Timothy Leary. I think he was improvising from within the European membership and merely rearranging old glosses. I have never taken LSD, but what I gather from don Juan's teachings is that psychotropics are used to stop the flow of ordinary interpretations, to enhance the contradictions within the glosses, and to shatter certainty. But the drugs alone do not allow you to stop the world. To do that you need an alternative description of the world. That is why don Juan had to teach me sorcery.
KEEN: There is an ordinary reality that we Western people are certain is 'the' only world, and then there is is the separate reality of the sorcerer. What are the essential differences between them?
Castaneda: In European membership the world is built largely from what the eyes report to the mind. In sorcery the total body is used as a perceptor. As Europeans we see a world out there and talk to ourselves about it. We are here and the world is there. Our eyes feed our reason and we have no direct knowledge of things. According to sorcery this burden on the eyes in unnecessary. We know with the total body.
KEEN: Western man begins with the assumption that subject and object are separated. We're isolated from the world and have to cross some gap to get to it. For don Juan and the tradition of sorcery, the body is already in the world. We are united with the world, not alienated from it.
Castaneda: That's right. Sorcery has a different theory of embodiment. The problem in sorcery is to tune and trim your body to make it a good receptor. Europeans deal with their bodies as if they were objects. We fill them with alcohol, Bad food, and anxiety. When something goes wrong we think germs have invaded the body from outside and so we import some medicine to cure it. The disease is not a part of us. Don Juan doesn't believe that. For him disease is a disharmony between a man and his world. The body is an awareness and it must be treated impeccably.
KEEN: This sounds similar to Norman O. Brown's idea that children, schizophrenics, and those with the divine madness of the Dionysian consciousness are aware of things and of other persons as extensions of their bodies. Don Juan suggests something of the kind when he says the man of knowledge has fibers of light that connect his solar plexus to the world.
CASTANEDA: My conversation with the coyote is a good illustration of the different theories of embodiment. When he came up to me I said: "Hi, little coyote. How are you doing?" And he answered back: "I am doing fine. How about you?" Now, I didn't hear
the words in the normal way. But my body knew the coyote was saying something and I translated it into dialogue. As an intellectual my relationship to dialogue is so profound that my body automatically translated into words the feeling that the animal was communicating with me. We always see the unknown in terms of the known.
KEEN: When you are in that magical mode of consciousness in which coyotes speak and everything is fitting and luminous it seems as if the whole world is alive and that human beings are in a communion that includes animals and plants. If we drop our arrogant assumptions that we are the only comprehending and communicating form of life we might find all kinds of things talking to us. John Lilly talked talked to dolphins. Perhaps we would feel less alienated if we could believe we were not the only intelligent life.
CASTANEDA: We might be able to talk to any animal. For don Juan and the other sorcerers there wasn't anything unusual about my conversation with the coyote. As a matter of fact they said I should have gotten a more reliable animal for a friend. Coyotes are tricksters and are not to be trusted.
KEEN: What animals make better friends?
CASTANEDA: Snakes make stupendous friends?
KEEN: I once had a conversation with a snake. One night I dreamt there was a snake in the attic of a house where I lived when I was a child. I took a stick and tried to kill it. In the morning I told the dream to a friend and she reminded me that it was not good to kill snakes, even if they were in the attic in a dream. She suggested that the next time a snake appeared in a dream I should feed it or do something to befriend it. About an hour later I was driving my motor scooter on a little-used road and there it was waiting for me-a four foot snake, stretched out sunning itself. I drove alongside it and it didn't move. After we had looked at each other for a while I decided I should make some gesture to let him know I repented for killing his brother in my dream. I reached over and touched his tail. He coiled up and indicated that I had rushed our intimacy. So I backed off and just looked. After about five minutes he went off into the bushes.
CASTANEDA: You didn't pick it up?
KEEN: No.
CASTANEDA: It was a very good friend. A man can learn to call snakes. But you have to be in very good shape, calm, collected-in a friendly mood, with no doubts or pending affairs.
KEEN: My snake taught me that I had always had paranoid feelings about nature. I considered animals and snakes dangerous. After my meeting I could never kill another snake and it began to be more plausible to me that we might be in some kind of living nexus. Our ecosystem might well include communication between different forms of life.
CASTANEDA: Don Juan has a very interesting theory about this. Plants, like animals, always affect you. He says that if you don't apologize to plants for picking them you are likely to get sick or have an accident.
KEEN: The American Indians had similar beliefs about animals they killed. If you don't thank the animal for giving up his life so you may live, his spirit may cause you trouble.
CASTANEDA: We have a commonality with all life. Something is altered every time we deliberately injure plant life or animal life. We take life in order to live but we must be willing to give up our lives without resentment when it is our time. We are so important and take ourselves so seriously that we forget that the world is a great mystery that will teach us if we listen.
KEEN: Perhaps psychotropic drugs momentarily wipe out the isolated ego and allow a mystical fusion with nature. Most cultures that have retained a sense of communion between man and nature also have made ceremonial use of psychedelic drugs. Were you using peyote when you talked with the coyote?
CASTANEDA: No. Nothing at all.
KEEN: Was this experience more intense than similar experiences you had when don Juan gave you psychotropic plants?
CASTANEDA: Much more intense. Every time I took psychotropic plants I knew I had taken something and I could always question the validity of my experience. But when the coyote talked to me I had no defenses. I couldn't explain it away. I had really stopped the world and, for a short time, got completely outside my European system of glossing.
KEEN: Do you think don Juan lives in this state of awareness most of the time?
CASTANEDA: Yes. He lives in magical time and occasionally comes into ordinary time. I live in ordinary time and occasionally dip into magical time.
KEEN: Anyone who travels so far from the beaten paths of consensus must be very lonely.
CASTANEDA: I think so. Don Juan lives in an awesome world and he has left routine people far behind. Once when I was with don Juan and his friend don Genaro I saw the loneliness they shared and their sadness at leaving behind the trappings and points of reference of ordinary society. I think don Juan turns his loneliness into art. He contains and controls his power, the wonder and the loneliness, and turns them into art. His art is the metaphorical way in which he lives. This is why his teachings have such a dramatic flavor and unity. He deliberately constructs his life and his manner of teaching.
KEEN: For instance, when don Juan took you out into the hills to hunt animals was he consciously staging an allegory?
CASTANEDA: Yes. He had no interest in hunting for sport or to get meat. In the 10 years I have known him don Juan has killed only four animals to my knowledge, and these only at times when he saw that their death was a gift to him in the same way his death would one day be a gift to something. Once we caught a rabbit in a trap we had set and don Juan thought I should kill it because its time was up. I was desperate because I had the sensation that I was the rabbit. I tried to free him but couldn't open the trap. So I stomped on the trap and accidentally broke the rabbit's neck. Don Juan had been trying to teach me that I must assume responsibility for being in this marvelous world. He leaned over and whispered in my ear: "I told you this rabbit had no more time to roam in this beautiful desert." He consciously set up the metaphor to teach me about the ways of a warrior. The warrior is a man who hunts and accumulates personal power. To do this he must develop patience and will and move deliberately through the world. Don Juan used the dramatic situation of actual hunting to teach me because he was addressing himself to my
body.
KEEN: In your most recent book, Journey to Ixtlan, you reverse the impression given in your first books that the use of
psychotropic plants was the main method don Juan intended to use in teaching you about sorcery. How do you now understand the place of psychotropics in his teachings?
CASTANEDA: Don Juan used psychotropic plants only in the middle period of my apprenticeship because I was so stupid, sophisticated and cocky. I held on to my description of the world as if it were the only truth. Psychotropics created a gap in my system of glosses. They destroyed my dogmatic certainty. But I paid a tremendous price. When the glue that held my world together was dissolved, my body was weakened and it took months to recuperate. I was anxious and functioned at a very low level.
KEEN: Does don Juan regularly use psychotropic drugs to stop the world?
CASTANEDA: No. He can now stop it at will. He told me that for me to try to see without the aid of psychotropic plants would be useless. But if I behaved like a warrior and assumed responsibility I would not need them; they would only weaken my body.
KEEN: This must come as quite a shock to many of your admirers. You are something of a patron saint to the psychedelic revolution.
CASTANEDA: I do have a following and they have some strange ideas about me. I was walking to a lecture I was giving at California State, Long Beach the other day and a guy who knew me pointed me out to a girl and said: "Hey, that is Castaneda." She didn't believe him because she had the idea that I must be very mystical. A friend has collected some of the stories that circulate about me. The consensus is that I have mystical feet.
KEEN: Mystical feet?
CASTANEDA: Yes, that I walk barefooted like Jesus and have no callouses. I am supposed to be stoned most of the time. I have also committed suicide and died in several different places. A college class of mine almost freaked out when I began to talk about phenomenology and membership and to explore perception and socialization. They wanted to be told too relax, turn on and blow their minds. But to me understanding is important.
KEEN: Rumors flourish in an information vacuum. We know something about don Juan but too little about Castaneda.
CASTANEDA: That is a deliberate part of the life of a warrior, To weasel in and out of different worlds you have to remain inconspicuous. The more you are known and identified, the more your freedom is curtailed. When people have definite ideas about who you are and how you will act, then you can't move. One of the earliest things don Juan taught me was that I must erase my personal history. If little by little you create a fog around yourself then you will not be taken for granted and you will have more room for change. That is the reason I avoid tape recordings when I lecture, and photographs.
KEEN: Maybe we can be personal without being historical. You now minimize the importance of the psychedelic experience connected with your apprenticeship. And you don't seem to go around doing the kind of tricks you describe as the sorcerer's stock-in-trade. What are the elements of don Juan's teachings that are important for you? Have you been changed by them?
CASTANEDA: For me the ideas of being a warrior and a man of knowledge, with the eventual hope of being able to stop the world and see, have been the most applicable. They have given me peace and confidence in my ability to control my life. At the time I met don Juan I had very little personal power. My life had been very erratic. I had come a long way from my birthplace in Brazil. Outwardly I was aggressive and cocky, but within I was indecisive and unsure of myself. I was always making excuses for myself. Don Juan once accused me of being a professional child because I was so full of self-pity. I felt like a leaf in the wind. Like most intellectuals, my back was against the wall. I had no place to go. I couldn't see any way of life that really excited me. I thought all I could do was make a mature adjustment to a life of boredom or find ever more complex forms of entertainment such as the use of psychedelics and pot and sexual adventures. All of this was exaggerated by my habit of introspection. I was always looking within and talking to myself. The inner dialogue seldom stopped. Don Juan turned my eyes outward and taught me to accumulate personal power. I don't think there is any other way to live if one wants to be exuberant.
KEEN: He seems to have hooked you with the old philosopher's trick of holding death before your eyes. I was struck with how classical don Juan's approach was. I heard echoes of Plato's idea that a philosopher must study death before he can gain any access to the real world and of Martin Heidegger's definition of man as being-toward-death.
CASTANEDA: Yes, but don Juan's approach has a strange twist because it comes from the tradition in sorcery that death is physical presence that can be felt and seen. One of the glosses in sorcery is: death stands to your left. Death is an impartial judge who will speak truth to you and give you accurate advice. After all, death is in no hurry. He will get you tomorrow or the next week or in 50 years. It makes no difference to him. The moment you remember you must eventually die you are cut down to the right size. I think I haven't made this idea vivid enough. The gloss-"death to your left"-isn't an intellectual matter in sorcery;
it is perception. When your body is properly tuned to the world and you turn your eyes to your left, you can witness an extraordinary event, the shadowlike presence of death.
KEEN: In the existential tradition, discussions of responsibility usually follow discussion of death.
CASTANEDA: Then don Juan is a good existentialist. When there is no way of knowing whether I have one more minute of life. I must live as if this is my last moment. Each act is the warrior's last battle. So everything must be done impeccably. Nothing can be left pending. This idea has been very freeing for me. I am here talking to you and I may never return to Los Angeles. But that wouldn't matter because I took care of everything before I came.
KEEN: This world of death and decisiveness is a long way from psychedelic utopias in which the vision of endless time destroys the tragic quality of choice.
CASTANEDA: When death stands to your left you must create your world by a series of decisions. There are no large or small
decisions, only decisions that must be made now. And there is no time for doubts or remorse. If I spend my time regretting what I did yesterday I avoid the decisions I need to make today.
KEEN: How did don Juan teach you to be decisive?
CASTANEDA: He spoke to my body with his acts. My old way was to leave everything pending and never to decide anything. To me decisions were ugly. It seemed unfair for a sensitive man to have to decide. One day don Juan asked me: "Do you think you and I are equals?" I was a university student and an intellectual and he was an old Indian but I condescended and said: "Of course we are equals." He said: "I don't think we are. I am a hunter and a warrior and you are a pimp. I am ready to sum up my life at any moment. Your feeble world of indecision and sadness is not equal to mine." Well, I was very insulted and would have left but we were in the middle of the wilderness. So I sat down and got trapped in my own ego involvement. I was going to wait until he decided to go home. After many hours I saw that don Juan would stay there forever if he had to. Why not? For a man with no pending business that is his power. I finally realized that this man was not like my father who would make 20 New Year's resolutions and cancel them all out. Don Juan's decisions were irrevocable as far as he was concerned. They could be canceled out only by other decisions. So I went over and touched him and he got up and we went home. The impact of that act was tremendous. It convinced me that the way of the warrior is an exuberant and powerful way to live.
KEEN: It isn't the content of decision that is important so much as the act of being decisive.
CASTANEDA: That is what don Juan means by having a gesture. A gesture is a deliberate act which is undertaken for the power that comes from making a decision. For instance, if a warrior found a snake that was numb and cold, he might struggle to invent a way to take the snake to a warm place without being bitten. The warrior would make the gesture just for the hell of it. But he would perform it perfectly.
KEEN: There seem to be many parallels between existential philosophy and don Juan's teachings. What you have said about decision and gesture suggests that don Juan, like Nietzsche or Sartre, believes that will rather than reason is the most fundamental faculty of man.
CASTANEDA: I think that is right. Let me speak for myself. What I want to do, and maybe I can accomplish it, is to take the control away from my reason. My mind has been in control all of my life and it would kill me rather than relinquish control. At one point in my apprenticeship I became profoundly depressed. I was overwhelmed with terror and gloom and thoughts about suicide. Then don Juan warned me this was one of reason's tricks to retain control. He said my reason was making my body feel that there was no meaning in life. Once my mind waged this last battle and lost, reason began to assume its proper place as a tool of the body.
KEEN: "The heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing of" and so does the rest of the body.
CASTANEDA: That is the point. The body has a will of its own. Or rather, the will is the voice of the body. That is why don Juan consistently put his teachings in dramatic form. My intellect could easily dismiss his world of sorcery as nonsense. But my body was attracted to his world and his way of life. And once the body took over, a new and healthier reign was established.
KEEN: Don Juan's techniques for dealing with dreams engaged me became they suggest the possibility of voluntary control of dream images. It is as though he proposes to establish a permanent, stable observatory within inner space. Tell me about don Juan's dream training.
CASTANEDA: The trick in dreaming is to sustain dream images long enough to look at them carefully. To gain this kind of control you need to pick one thing in advance and learn to find it in your dreams. Don Juan suggested that I use my hands as a steady point and go back and forth between them and the images. After some months I learned to find my hands and to stop the dream. I became so fascinated with the technique that I could hardly wait to go to sleep.
KEEN: Is stopping the images in dreams anything like stopping the world?
CASTANEDA: It is similar. But there are differences. Once you are capable of finding your hands at will, you realize that it is only a technique. What you are after is control. A man of knowledge must accumulate personal power. But that is not enough to stop the world. Some abandon also is necessary. You must silence the chatter that is going on inside your mind and surrender yourself to the outside world.
KEEN: Of the many techniques that don Juan taught you for stopping the world, which do you still practice?
CASTANEDA: My major discipline now is to disrupt my routines. I was always a very routinary person. I ate and slept on schedule. In 1965 I began to change my habits. I wrote in the quiet hours of the night and slept and ate when I felt the neeed. Now I have dismantled so many of my habitual ways of acting that before long I may become unpredictable and surprising even to myself.
KEEN: Your discipline reminds me of the Zen story of two disciples bragging about miraculous powers. One disciple claimed the founder of the sect to which he belonged could stand on one side of a river and write the name of Buddha on a piece of paper held by his assistant on the opposite shore. The second disciple replied that such a miracle was unimpressive. "My miracle," he said, "is that when I feel hungry I eat, and when I feel thirsty I drink"
CASTANEDA: It has been this element of engagement in the world that has kept me following the path which don Juan showed me. There is no need to transcend the world. Everything we need to know is right in front of us, if we pay attention. If you enter a state of nonordinary reality, as you do when you use psychotropic plants, it is only to draw back from it what you need in order to see the miraculous character of ordinary reality. For me the way to live-the path with heart-is not introspection or mystical transcendence but presence in the world. This world is the warrior's hunting ground.
KEEN: The world you and don Juan have pictured is full of magical coyotes, enchanted crows and a beautiful sorceress. It's easy to see how it could engage you. But what about the world of the modern urban person? Where is the magic there? If we could all live in the mountains we might keep wonder alive. But how is it possible when we are half a zoom from the freeway?
CASTANEDA: I once asked don Juan the same question. We were sitting in a cafe in Yuma and I suggested that I might be able to stop the world and to see, if I could come and live in the wilderness with him. He looked out the window at the passing cars and said: "That, out there, is your world." I live in Los Angeles now and I find I can use that world to accommodate my needs. It is a challenge to live with no set routines in a routinary world. But it can be done.
KEEN: The noise level and the constant pressure of the masses of people seem to destroy the silence and solitude that would be essential for stopping the world.
CASTANEDA: Not at all. In fact, the noise can be used. You can use the buzzing of the freeway to teach yourself to listen to the outside world. When we stop the world the world we stop is the one we usually maintain by our continual inner dialogue. Once you can stop the internal babble you stop maintaining your old world. The descriptions collapse. That is when personality change begins. When you concentrate on sounds you realize it is difficult for the brain to categories all the sounds, and in a short while you stop trying. This is unlike visual perception which keeps us forming categories and thinking. It is so restful when you can turn off the talking, categorizing, and judging.
KEEN: The internal world changes but what about the external one? We can revolutionize individual consciousness but still not touch the social structures that create our alienation. Is there any place for social or political reform in your thinking?
CASTANEDA: I came from Latin America where intellectuals were always talking about political and social revolution and where a lot of bombs were thrown. But revolution hasn't changed much. It takes little daring to bomb a building, but in order to give up cigarettes or to stop being anxious or to stop internal chattering, you have to remake yourself. This is where real reform begins.
Don Juan and I were in Tucson not long ago when they were having Earth Week. Some man was lecturing on ecology and the evils of war in Vietnam. All the while he was smoking. Don Juan said, "I cannot imagine that he is concerned with other people's bodies when he doesn't like his own." Our first concern should be with ourselves. I can like my fellow men only when I am at my peak of vigor and am not depressed. To be in this condition I must keep my body trimmed. Any revolution must begin here in this body. I can alter my culture but only from within a body that is impeccably tuned-in to this weird world. For me, the real accomplishment is the art of being a warrior, which, as don Juan says, is the only way to balance the terror of being a man with the wonder of being a man.
Seeing Castaneda (1976) ->reprinted from Psychology Today, 1972

[Argon Steele]

I'm going to come back later and print this interview out and read it later --

just a quick word or two on Castaneda who has definitely been the main influence on me for my formative years (18-24?). I have read all his books at least three times (though none in the last 6 years). i also saw him talk a number of times. I even taught a class on his work in college.

unfortunatly after all these years I, too, have to think he made alot of it up, if not the whole thing. One of the most interesting books is by his ex-wife. Very hard to find, nearly self published. In it she describes their early years together, when he was writing the first book. It's clear that he's a pathological liar.

too bad, I'm not one of those to say "it doens't matter if it's not true, the philosophy is still good." (unlike my best friend, who still reads the books every week and does all the exercises, workshops now offered (the "toltec passes") and who swears by them (and he's much more physical/spritual than I). I think they're is a very specific world view put out in those books, one that does not include much room for re-incarnation, one that I'm not sure i agree with completely anymore (not since DMT).

most people have just read the first few books, but the series doesn't really get going till book five I'd say, (the eagles gift). After the second book drugs are hardly ever mentioned, but that's all many people associate him with.

anyway, the bottom line though is Castaneda had an enormous influence in pulling me onto the spiritual path, and that's what it's really all about, right? They are very accessable and for anyone who is just starting to play with their head they are the perfect, non-western, non-eastern, introduction to drugs as a spiritual rather than hedonistic pleasure. Even after all these years and almost being arrested for stalking Castaneda I must admit his books have incredible powers.

a charlatan? yes...
does it matter? yes...
should his books be required reading for high schoolers? YES!

[sidecross]

"...does it matter? Yes..."

It matters only to those who keep score, and in thought experiments I find score keeping's value to be relative at best.

[Anita]

Hmmmm,Might he not have done a real fine job of
"erasing personal history"?For my self I find Theun Mares exercises much easier to put into practice,but Castaneda most definetly were the one who steered me to a reality view I could understand.
I am grateful for all of his books,but in particular the last one,The active side of infinity.
Thanks Daniel for sharing this inteview with us.

[John Hoopes]

I realize that this is an old thread, but Castaneda is in the news again with a story from last week's New York Times:

Peyote's Hallucinations Spawn Real-Life Academic Feud (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/16/science/16PEYO.html)

A dispute about Castaneda between two anthropologists, Peter Furst and Jay Fikes, is now in the New Mexico Supreme Court. Fikes is the author of Carlos Castaneda: Academic Opportunism and the Psychedelic Sixties (1993), in which he claims that Furst and the late anthropologist Barbara Meyerhoff helped Castaneda to fabricate a rich fiction about Yaqui shaman Don Juan Matus.

[ September 20, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: John Hoopes ]

[gone]

Mmm, and a new book, should you need one:

SORCERER’S APPRENTICE – NEW BOOK ON CARLOS CASTANEDA

Contact: Josh Baran
jcbaran@aol.com
212-779-2666

For nearly two decades, Carlos Castaneda was revered as the "Godfather of the New Age," sharing esoteric knowledge passed down through an ancient lineage of Indian shamans. His books became essential reading for a generation of spiritual seekers, selling close to 10 million copies in 17 languages. From 1971 to 1982, Castaneda was the bestselling non-fiction author in the United States. A New York Times book reviewer wrote, "One can’t exaggerate the significance of what Carlos Castaneda has done." He even appeared on the cover of Time Magazine.

Nearly from the beginning, Castaneda’s work was shrouded in controversy. There were serious questions as to the truth of Castaneda’s accounts. Was this a chronicle of a great mystical journey or rather imaginative delusions or even outright fraud? Few details about the best-selling author have ever been available. He was the Greta Garbo of the spiritual scene. Rarely granting interviews and never allowing himself to be photographed, remaining completely enigmatic and unknown. That is, until now.

In the new book, Sorcerer’s Apprentice: My Life with Carlos Castaneda (Frog Ltd, August 2003, $26.00), author Amy Wallace throws open an intimate door into the previously concealed world of Castaneda. Spanning twenty-five years, Sorcerer’s Apprentice chronicles Amy’s personal evolution, her complex romantic relationship with Castaneda, and an inside view of one of the most fascinating and disturbing personality cults in the history of modern religious movements.

In Sorcerer’s Apprentice, Wallace focuses primarily on the last years of Castaneda’s life. During this period, he took on a more public role, gathering a group of devotees around him in Los Angeles and teaching openly. The book also reveals for the first time the strange circumstances surrounding Castaneda’s death.

For anyone interested in understanding the counter culture spirituality and philosophies of the 60s and 70s, Sorcerer’s Apprentice is an essential book to read. For more information, to receive a review copy, or to speak with the author, please contact Josh Baran at jcbaran@aol.com or call 212-779-2666.

[Buzz]

Just read the interview, must have slipped through the cracks.
You know, even if Carlos was lying, he is more brilliant and inspiring than any of his critics.

[David Orange]

:rolleyes: i think castaneda/"don juan" as teacher is like bush as president.

in my opinion there were more profundities in the 'simpsons' episode where homer goes on a shamanic journey after eating a psychedelic chile pepper, then there are in the entire lot of castaneda's writings.

[Woodpecker]

"Seeing Castaneda (1976) ->reprinted from Psychology Today, 1972 "

Yes, but can Homer give an interview in 1976 and have it printed in 1972? I think not!

Does anybody have a web address for the vendor of those chili peppers?

[David Orange]

Wiggum: Afternoon, Homer. Care for some chili? I've added an extra ingredient just for you. [dramatic] The merciless peppers of Quetzlzacatenango! [exhibits a glowing pepper]
[crowd gasps] Grown deep in the jungle primeval by the inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum.

Coyote: Fear not, Homer. I am your spirit guide.
Homer: [warily] Hiya.
Coyote: There is a lesson you must learn.
Homer: If it's about laying off the insanity peppers, I'm way ahead of you.
Coyote: I speak of a deeper wisdom. The problem, Homer, is that the mind is always chattering away with a thousand thoughts at once.
Homer: Yeah, that's me all right. [Homer has a glazed look in his eyes as the wind blows his two hair strands.]
Coyote: Clarity is the path to inner peace.
Homer: Well, what should I do? Should I meditate? Should I get rid of all my possessions?
Coyote: [snorts] Are you kidding? If anything, you should get more possessions. You don't even have a computer.
Homer: You know, I have been meaning to take a spiritual journey, and I would... [the coyote is chewing his pant leg] Hey! Knock it off! [kicks him]
Coyote: [sheepishly] Sorry. I am a coyote.
Homer: Look, just give me some inner peace, or I'll mop the floor with you.

The coyote instructs Homer to find his soulmate: the one with whom he shares a profound mystical understanding. Homer thinks it is Marge, but the coyote, running off, makes him doubt himself. Homer then sees a ghost train which runs over him...

...returning us to the real world, where Homer is hit on the head with
a golf ball. Kent Brockman calls security to get him off the course.

Homer: Huh? Golf course? Did I dream that whole thing? Maybe the desert was just this sand trap. Oh, and I bet that crazy pyramid was just the pro shop. [the pro shop is on top of a giant pyramid, as well] And that talking coyote was really just a talking dog.
Dog: Hi, Homer. Find your soulmate.
Homer: Hey, wait a minute! There's no such thing as a talking dog!
Dog: [barks]
Homer: Damn straight!

(rip johnny cash)

[David Orange]

a fan's contribution on some 'simpsons' website---

Tom Pierce: A few people had asked about the relevance of the coyote in the Guatamalean Insanity Pepper episode. Homer, standing on top of a very Aztec-y looking pyramid, is visited by a coyote (with Johnny Cash's voice, no less) who gives him rather insufficient spiritual advice about finding his true Soulmate. He also makes a go at eating Homer's pants.

A couple people said it was a reference to Carlos Castaneda, probably "Teachings of Don Juan". Well, that's kind of an empty answer; it was a direct reference to Old Man Coyote, even though it incorporated a lot of the ideas Castaneda put forward about "the spiritual search", ideas that were already ages old.

Many tribes believed in the concept of spirit helpers, entities who would serve as a guide through the metaphysical aspects of life. Young tribe members would be send out on a "vision quest", where they would fast and meditate (or take hallucinogens, or hit themselves on the head with a rock, or whatever made it work for them). While in this state (the Shamanic State of Conciousness, if you want to be technical about it), they would see an animal (or bird or fish) that would have chosen to represent them, and in many ways, become their spiritual Guardian Angel.

In quite a few tribes, it was a combination of an honor and a horrible disaster for your spirit animal to be Coyote.

Old Man Coyote (First Person, Trickster) ranged from being the most powerful of the Native American spirits to the most useless, sometimes within the course of one story about him. Foolish, vain, obtuse, and horribly ravenous. Much like Homer. Also like Homer, Coyote was also fond of talking to his brain (and any other body parts who wanted to chip in).

His "advice" was almost always of no true benefit, aside from the fact that the attempt to follow his advice would teach the follower important lessons about themselves and the goal they seek. Much like Homer is mislead by Coyote into doubting Marge as his soulmate; his rather moronic search for his true soulmate eventually shows him the truth of the matter. He gets nothing out of Coyote's advice except a reassurance that what he has is what he was looking for.

Sometimes, however, Coyote's advice was just malicious, done for his own amusement. To me, at least, it seemed uproarously funny for Coyote to have chosen to speak to Homer; both are clowns who make decisions based on whims that haven't been thought out at all.

Notice how Coyote is happy when Homer threatens to "mop the floor" with him. Most godly creatures wouldn't respond well to a mortal saying that; Coyote would think it showed spirit. And ignorance. Both wonderful things.

Maybe one of the Simpsons writers read some Carlos Castaneda and based it solely on that. But I doubt it - they're pretty slick, and if even half of the minor references I caught were intended, they did an excellent job.

[Buzz]

Many folks have thrown the baby out with the bathwater concerning Castenada. I haven't. It's obvious that at the time of the interview he was very lucid concerning topics discussed. And what he said had meaning to him then. Even though I don't like the coined term "Toltec" those obscure practices and revelations have had a great influence on me.
Personally, I feel that Castenada's apprenticeship was terminated before he had a real good grasp of the material and in the 80's and 90's having failed to complete his tasks he started filling in the missing sequences with bullshit to verify his nagualhood. It's my understanding that the women around him are responsible for him going public with the workshops and such. It is also my understanding that Carlos was bitter about being dropped off the cliff of sorcery knowledge.
I want to believe in don Juan and don Genaro, it is my choice. But Carlos always portrayed himself as a fool and he apparently died a fool. But it is a difficult row to hoe and I do not harbor any resentment towards him. By the way, his characters often claimed that one had to be tricked into pursueing their path. And if Carlos didn't trick his starstruck crowd in the land of Nod, then you would have to say he deceived them. Some ideas that he wrote about, such as us being split beings, Tonal & Nagual are right in line with the Binary Soul Doctrine that many ancient people believed in. Some even believe it was part of a world wide religion. It was also taught by Christ prior to Constantine's political influence on what Christianity should be. He outed the Gnostics, the Cathers (who also believed in the BSD) were wiped out by the inquistion.
Recapitulation seems similar to soul-retrieval.
I don't think most people who have read the books realize just what a profound influence the man had on New Age thought and dare I say, Hollywood. However, he made a mistake and became an egomanical asshole. But frankly, most people that I know are like that.
I know people who went to UCLA while Carlos attended, and they had mutual friends who were very concerned about Carlos as he would sometimes disappear for months.
If you really want to read some wild stuff you should pick up Myths of the Cherokee and Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee by James Mooney. Published in the late 19th century. A lot more far out than Carlos ever was. And according to some, prior to the white invasion Indians did not know how to lie.

[Woodpecker]

The praise and denigration of Castaneda are consistent with someone whose spirit animal is Coyote, as Tom Pierce described in David's piece.

[daniel]

Buzz,

Your perspective on CC is interesting, but where would you put the point where some "real" knowledge/experience ended and elaboration/fantasy took over?

Even in the first book, there is a lot that is deeply suspicious - all the usage of the psychedelics seems oddly garbled, for instance. (Is there any legitimacy to the practice of smoking mushrooms? Attempts I have heard about ended in dismal failures.)

Then there are later books like The Art of Dreaming which I have to admit, I really appreciated. Then, also, I haven't read the books by the women who claimed to be in the same group. It would be interesting to compare their accounts.

I wonder if it is possible if CC acted as a kind of "channel," faking almost everything yet still bringing in some bits of ancient practice.

(I have had the same thought about the author of the Harry Potter books, who apparently "downloaded" the whole plot of the series during one train ride, and is in some way conveying alchemical/occult ideas to the mainstream. I haven't read the books but I was struck by the first movie, which begins with the release of a serpent, which could represent the kundalini, and other kind of symbolic parallels to what you find in occultism/alchemy, etc. Of course it may have been the case that Rowling was versed in all this stuff, I haven't really followed it so don't know).

[Buzz]

I don't know that I can give a more specific date than the 1980's. I did not personally know him nor have I physically met any of his entourage.

On a note of interest about a year ago I was escorted in an elevator up to a floor where I conducted a workshop. My escort was a yaqui indian man named John who had an intensity about him. Had I not been in such a hurry I might have had an opportunity to talk with him.

My wife and others believe that Castenada wrote Florinda Donners and Taisha Abelars books. I am of the opinion that those girls never met Don Juan, though I enjoyed the books. I do admit that because of my own extraordinary experiences I have a great ability to suspend disbelief.

Some of my experiences are right out of CC's books. At my cabin in the haunted mountains of NC
strange things happen. Once in broad daylight I was sitting out on my deck when branches started snapping. There was no wind. It culminated in a tree 6 inches in diameter snapping off right in front of me. DJ refered to these entities as allies, but they can apparently be quite dangerous. Nearly every night that I stay out there a sweet, melodious voice starts calling out across the ridge and gets closer and closer till its right outside the cabin. I have always wanted to think it was an owl, but in talking with ornothologist and birdwatchers and describing the sound no one seems to recognize it. I have had many other strange experiences there, including strange lights in the night sky. I have a very difficlut time sleeping there and when I do I have very strange dreams. Oddly enough, my wife always sleeps like a log there.

I have never understood Carlos's fear of psychedelics. From the start he was scared to death of them. I tend to think that from the beginning he had an agenda against their use.I do not believe that the native folks he knew had the same fear. DJ seemed to think Carlos was crazy. I personally don't think that one can be a shamen without them. maybe William Blake, but we don't know what was growing in his backyard.

"Little Smoke" is a mystery. I'm not sure if he ever talked about it in specific terms. Crushed up bugs from some plant, a green leafed plant (saliva divorum? who knows)5 ingredients or so. I think you would have to agree that the combination of plants that make up yage have a different effect individually than they do alone. At least that is what I understand from reading about it. Maybe the plants taught DJ or his benefactor ancestors how to combine them. It is a mystery but not proven to be false to my knowledge.

I have not read all the Toltec literature out there. Victor Sanchez, by all accounts, is approachable and does not cover his tracks in a mystical fog like CC did. I've not read much of his stuff. Might be an interesting read.

[Em]

Figuring CC out - now there's a challenge! Way too much for "Agent" Orange, and his toxic views - best stick with Homer.

Having studied CC's writings since around 1976, and being aware of the controversies surrounding the person, I came to the same/very similar conclusion as Buzz (hi there). Somehow CC fell short, rather like La Catalina, and don Juan's teacher, nagual Julian (though they got to a rather higher level of accomplishment). The writing and content of those books is something else - to me, certainly a magical reality, and not emanating from our world. Don Juan is head, shoulders and everything else above any of our philosophers, and perhaps even the founders of religions around the world. He is so SANE - a combination of profundity and earthy humour; a sage who LIVES his wisdom (and there is an amazing amount of common sense and unearthly insight in his actions and utterances). I've read reasonably widely, and the other so-called 'naguals' are very poor and pale imitations, particularly those who've jumped on the bandwaggon and declared themselves to have been, too, the disciples of don Juan. And as for the writings of the women of CC's party, and other female 'chancers'- don't bother! Their prose is as lumpy as their 'revelations' are pathetic.

My view is that if don Juan didn't exist, then he should have been made up - he was, and still is an inspiration to me. But I really cannot see anyone having the sheer talent to invent him. Perhaps, as Daniel suggests, there was some channeling involved; or maybe CC really entered different 'parallel' realm(s) when with don Juan. What to me is painfully striking about "reality" is just how impossible it is to pin it down. In this realm, confusion reigns supreme. Don Juan brought order and, paradoxically, magic to this life, and I choose, nay, have to believe that somehow, somewhere, in that infinity, at this very moment the spirit has descended. Don Juan is alive. He has delivered his party of warriors, and he is victorious! (I paraphrase "a sommersault of thought into the inconcievable", from "The Power of Silence").

[David Orange]

hmmm...disappeared for long periods of time, his whereabouts unknown to friends; & appeared to have anti-drug agenda from the start.

castaneda = govt. spook?

i understand that there is some evidence that the government actually attempted to disseminate psychedelics into the burgeoning youth culture during the '60's...however that seemed to backfire. so, plan b: the castaneda books? maybe that would help to explain why they were so highly regarded at the time by segments of academia and the publishing world, despite the dubiousness of his "research".

...okay, i know, kinda stupid and highly unlikely.

anyway, i have not read amy wallace's book or any of the other tell-all efforts, but i think daniel's guess is a good one: the guy made up a bunch of stuff (people who knew him during his younger years said that he was a great guy, but a notorious teller of tall tales) and through whatever mechanisms (the guy was apparently pretty well-read, for one) some valid stuff came through along with all of the b.s.

[David Orange]

Em wrote: "Don Juan is head, shoulders and everything else above any of our philosophers, and perhaps even the founders of religions around the world. He is so SANE - a combination of profundity and earthy humour; a sage who LIVES his wisdom (and there is an amazing amount of common sense and unearthly insight in his actions and utterances)."

you've got to be kidding here. if "don juan" has more to offer us then "our philosophers", by which i suppose you mean the western philosophical traditions, then i'll gladly eat the collected works of plato, john stuart mill, nietzsche, etc.

& better than jesus, buddha, lao-tzu, et al? :rolleyes:

how can you write of him being a sage who LIVES his wisdom, when said "sage" existed only within castaneda's wild imagination?

i think anyone's time is much better spent watching 'the simpsons' than trudging through castaneda's fantasies and psuedo-wisdom. the simpsons offer scathing satire and criticism of our culture, and homer will go down in history as an immortal character along the lines of falstaff...long after "don juan" is forgotten and relegated to the trash heap of "new age" bilge. casteneda's writings are about as legitimate/worthwhile as "t. lobsang rampa's".

sorry to come off as obnoxious, but i have a profound disgust for pathological liars and other varieties of psychopaths who attempt to pass themselves off as "gurus". there are no shortage of these people, and they are exploiting people's deepest dreams and wishes. i find it sickening that anyone could be so unconscionable as to do so. :mad: :confused:

i read the interview that daniel posted at the beginning of this thread and i just cringe reading the crap that castaneda was putting out there. if one can't seem to restrain one's self from perpetually lying and living in a fantasy world, then use that talent/sickness to entertain friends or write screenplays, but please don't set yourself up as a "spiritual" teacher or pretend to be a serious scholar.

[Em]

Wow! Mr. Orange! You should get that rage seen to! And your self-righteous certainty!

It is true that I really don't know - anything. But I also know that there is NO WAY that you KNOW what the truth is about CC - or anything.

Don Juan's place in MY firmament is a matter of MY SUBJECTIVE CHOICE. Yet it is the only kind of choice open to me (and to you, and everyone else). If you think that you are more 'objective' than I, or anyone else, that's your privilege, and I wouldn't waste my keyboard on trying to persuade you otherwise - after all, it is every bit your right to be as deluded as I am (or not).
But I do hope that your certainties are kind to you...

[David Orange]

Originally posted by Em:
Wow! Mr. Orange! You should get that rage seen to! And your self-righteous certainty!

there is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness. if i am outraged by spiritual charlatans, then i believe that qualifies as legitimate, righteously motivated outrage.

It is true that I really don't know - anything. But I also know that there is NO WAY that you KNOW what the truth is about CC - or anything. i think i can, in fact, get a pretty good idea of "the truth", based upon the accounts of people who were close to him, and the people who investigated his work (genuine anthropologists; not sham ones like CC). castaneda's choice to shroud himself and his background in mystery is highly suspect in itself (and then conveniently justified by "don juan's" er, teachings :rolleyes: )...and since there have been people willing to do the research to fill in the details, or even the barest facts, pertinent to castaneda's life which he either omitted or fudged, that is something that his apologists will just have to deal with.

Don Juan's place in MY firmament is a matter of MY SUBJECTIVE CHOICE. Yet it is the only kind of choice open to me (and to you, and everyone else). If you think that you are more 'objective' than I, or anyone else, that's your privilege, and I wouldn't waste my keyboard on trying to persuade you otherwise - after all, it is every bit your right to be as deluded as I am (or not).
But I do hope that your certainties are kind to you... i admit to having great faith in my intuition and b.s. detector. as well, i am more inclined to respect the reports of castaneda's critics and intimates than i am the writings and claims of a man who is widely acknowledged to have been a pathological liar. practically speaking, i think that there is a point at which one must cease retreating into endless relativism regarding "truth" and "objectivity". philosophical games are all well and good, but in navigating through daily life one must exercise the mindset that maintains that there are (at least) provisional truths to be found.

casteneda's literary efforts have evidently provided you and others with something you find valuable...but people have also derived inspiration from the most crooked of televangelists. myself, i try to steer clear of conmen. there are plenty of other people out there with accumulated life wisdom who are not trying to hoodwink folks or establish a cult of personality.

[sire_012]

David O,

You might want to think a bit more about the close relationship between shamanism and tricksterism/con-artistry. Michael Taussig goes into this in depth in his Shamanism, Colonialism, and the Wild Man.

What if there is no "Real" to be opposed to a "Fake"? The shaman then walks between the realms of possibility, potentiality, and implausibility. A story is woven into being, and the most convincing story becomes what is.

The shaman would then be the one with the chutzpah to, as Rilke put it, "Will the transformation."

Rupert Sheldrake suggests that the laws of nature evolve by habit. Perhaps the shaman or trickster is the one who breaks habits, and sets new patterns (or "morphogenetic fields")?

[Leon]

Interesting to read the interview, thanks daniel. Have been waiting for personal power to be sufficient to contribute....
Enjoying the input here but does seem the worst are filled with a passionate intensity (David O!) Sire_012, since we are all co-creators of reality I say let us dream. Maybe Don Juan never had a physical presence for CC but does that make him less real? I see our present day understanding as being in the dark ages. Just reading 'Magical Passes' and in the excellent introduction CC says, 'Don Juan believed it to be a fact that people who lived in the New World ten thousand years ago were deeply concerned with matters of the universe and perception that modern man has not even begun to fathom'.

My view is that most people today are spiritually ASLEEP and it is NOW time to WAKE UP.

I'm in the process of reading CC's books and he comes across as a very accomplished guide bringing with him some valuable tools to enable us to work on ourselves, which is, after all what is going to make a difference on this planet.
I use whatever tools are around. The more powerful (if appropriate) the better. So mushrooms are great, and I read a lot, but realised recently that theory is all very well but one has to ACT IMMPECABLY. This, for me, is the tricky bit!

Thanks Buzz for the pointer to James Mooney, I'll be keeping my eyes open for that. If you want truth delivered with multi-dimensional, holographic clarity then my suggestion is BLUE as found on the foreverblue posts at Smartgroups.
http://www.smartgroups.com/message/listbydate.cfm?GID=915762
Warm regards, we are one!

[David Orange]

Originally posted by Leon:
"Enjoying the input here but does seem the worst are filled with a passionate intensity (David O!)"

thank you for the insult. it's nice to know that someone is using yeats' brilliant line to put down some guy who posts a mini-rant on an internet discussion board...rather than applying it to, say, a pathologically lying con artist who made a cottage industry out of exploiting people's spiritual yearnings.

"Sire_012, since we are all co-creators of reality I say let us dream. Maybe Don Juan never had a physical presence for CC but does that make him less real?"

yes. it makes him merely something vomited out of CC's imagination. he's as "real" as papa smurf. at least the people who produced smurfs cartoons were not trying to pass off their work as spiritual teachings.

if one can't stop one's self from lying, telling tall tales, etc., then find a creative outlet for such compulsions. write novels, like faulkner did, or make films, like w.c. fields. but please don't pose as an anthropologist-cum-spiritual teacher.

"Just reading 'Magical Passes' and in the excellent introduction CC says, 'Don Juan believed it to be a fact that people who lived in the New World ten thousand years ago were deeply concerned with matters of the universe and perception that modern man has not even begun to fathom'."

crap...pseudo-profundity. this is like me writing: "[insert imaginary shamanic persona here] believed it to be true that the ancient inhabitants of Europe were greatly concerned with cosmic and metaphysical matters which modern man has not even begun to understand."

where is the brilliance in speculating that people in the distant past may have been less materialistic or had deeper insights into the nature of reality then "modern man" does today? this goes without saying, does it not?

the above CC quote also ignores or diminishes the investigations into these areas by "old world" peoples-- alchemy, the hermetic tradition, magical traditions, esoteric christianity and mysticism, etc.

"My view is that most people today are spiritually ASLEEP and it is NOW time to WAKE UP."

castaneda's writings act as a sleeping pill, both mentally and spiritually. his writings will not serve to wake people up, but merely to further entangle them in "spiritual" fantasies, wishful thinking, and daydreaming. better to read harry potter books, or tolkien.

if the strategy for waking up involves buying into some guy's crap about a shaman he made up, then humanity is even more screwed than i thought...to invoke my bush analogy once again, that's like instructing people to take at face value the pronouncements of bush, cheney, rumsfeld, etc. as a means to becoming more politically enlightened. charlatans, all of them! :mad:

if there are contemporary "trickster" shamans to be found, then i imagine they would be more likely to be found in the world of comedians, who can be counted on to turn our notions of reality upside down...or hidden in everyday walks of life. i don't think we'll find them churning out best-selling books with titles alluding to fantasies of "wisdom and power".

[Em]

This is getting ridiculous. From your vast collection, Daniel, do you have a suitable tablet for poor David O?

Let's try and draw a line under this Castaneda business. Anyone who has actually read and STUDIED his writings will have noticed that don JUAN is the TEACHER. In that capacity, on numerous occasions, he pokes fun at CC, and is indeed very critical of his personality. At various times he tells CC that he is fat, stupid, inflexible, egomaniacal, already senile, a potential or actual hustler, greedy, etc., etc. An unusual set of attributes around which to form a cult of personality???!!!

Don Juan also states very unequivocally that one of our top priorities (alongside impeccability - cheers, Leon)is to assume PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I, possibly naively, equate this with having a CHOICE as to whether I WANT to find his teachings useful. Having carefully considered his offerings over a number of years, and having compared them to a number of other teachers, I personally find his emphasis and commitment to pursuit of FREEDOM through acting like an IMMPECABLE WARRIOR as the most worthy goal in life. I emphasise that this is MY CHOICE, and I accept full responsibility for it. Knowing that there is a possibility of fantasy involved in the writings, I accept full responsibility for my attitude towards them. If CC were to do a Lazarus tomorrow, and state that all his works were a mega-fraud, I wouldn't blame him for deceiving me - I'd already taken that possibility into account.

Even if don Juan is the product of CC's extraordinarily vivid imagination, I still find his teachings enormously uplifting. The idea that I may aspire to being a warrior, someone who doesn't bend his knee to anybody, and doesn't expect anyone to do that to me, is immensely appealing. Again, anyone looking to CC to be a "guru" should have known better if they'd but read and understood don Juan's teachings - there is an episode where CC tells don Juan that people had written in to him to say that he was wrong to disclose don Juan's teachings, because certain eastern masters insisted on total secrecy regarding their offerings. Don Juan replied that perhaps these "masters" were indulging in being "masters"; he was a humble warrior whose immpecable spirit would never permit him to be anyone's master!

CC was far from perfect, as he himself acknowledged. As far as I know, he never held a gun to anyone's head and insisted that they be "followers". Unfortunately it is in the make-up of fools to worship fallible personalities - but it is still their choice! I don't worship CC, but my judgement is that he made available to me something extremely valuable. And I'm sure that in the process, he himself paid a very heavy price.

A moral - if you want to study the messenger, do so by all means - but don't peremptorily discard the message just because its bringer is flawed. Amen!

[Buzz]

Good post Em.

After reading the interview that started this thread I started exercising again. I fail to see anything wrong with that.

[David Orange]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Em:
"This is getting ridiculous. From your vast collection, Daniel, do you have a suitable tablet for poor David O?"

the main reason it's getting ridiculous is because we are discussing "don juan", an imaginary character that castaneda, (who didn't even possess the rudiments of integrity necessary to provide a true version of the most basic facts of his life), dreamed up for some reason...since his books are replete with absurdities like smoking mushrooms, i can only conclude that he was not motivated by a sincere desire to impart valuable wisdom that he had access to, but rather that he was motivated by self-aggrandizement.

"Let's try and draw a line under this Castaneda business. Anyone who has actually read and STUDIED his writings will have noticed that don JUAN is the TEACHER. In that capacity, on numerous occasions, he pokes fun at CC, and is indeed very critical of his personality. At various times he tells CC that he is fat, stupid, inflexible, egomaniacal, already senile, a potential or actual hustler, greedy, etc., etc. An unusual set of attributes around which to form a cult of personality???!!!"

so what if he insults CC? that passage merely serves to add charm and a sense of "authenticity" to CC's fiction. if anything, the false humility implied there would make people more likely to drop their guards and swallow CC's crap. for me, it serves to make my mind reel at how full of his own nonsense he was, and just how perverse the guy was. if you're operating under the assumption that CC would never invent a character who would insult or criticize CC, then you are grossly underestimating the boundless perversity of the pathological liar.

"Don Juan also states very unequivocally that one of our top priorities (alongside impeccability - cheers, Leon)is to assume PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I, possibly naively, equate this with having a CHOICE as to whether I WANT to find his teachings useful. Having carefully considered his offerings over a number of years, and having compared them to a number of other teachers, I personally find his emphasis and commitment to pursuit of FREEDOM through acting like an IMMPECABLE WARRIOR as the most worthy goal in life. I emphasise that this is MY CHOICE, and I accept full responsibility for it. Knowing that there is a possibility of fantasy involved in the writings, I accept full responsibility for my attitude towards them. If CC were to do a Lazarus tomorrow, and state that all his works were a mega-fraud, I wouldn't blame him for deceiving me - I'd already taken that possibility into account."

i guess it's just me...but i find the "warrior" metaphor when applied to spirituality to be rather irksome. why carry over cowboy fantasies into the realm of spirit?

& just what is the "FREEDOM" to be found in the "teachings"? the freedom to make up what ever stories one wishes to regarding one's life? the freedom to shell out the money for the endless parade of sequels in the don juan series? the freedom to be sexist? the freedom to bastardize and caricature the genuine traditions of the Huichols? the freedom to shell out more money for his disciples' "tensegrity" workshops?

i'm not saying that the castaneda legacy is a cult per se. "cult" is such a problematic word, for one. but it's perhaps worth keeping in mind that many sinister groups have emphasized "personal responsibility" and "freedom" in their rhetoric, while ensuring that in practice all such opportunities are rigidly denied to their followers. george bush uses the words "freedom" and "responsibility" quite a bit in his speeches, but judging from his actions, i doubt that he has exercised much reflection on the meaning behind the words.

incidentally, at the risk of being obnoxious and a bit of a stickler (since i am not a "humble warrior" like don juan, perhaps you will forgive me for these transgressions), i find it ironic that you repeatedly mention the need for "impeccability" and yet manage to spell the word wrong each time...

"Even if don Juan is the product of CC's extraordinarily vivid imagination, I still find his teachings enormously uplifting. The idea that I may aspire to being a warrior, someone who doesn't bend his knee to anybody, and doesn't expect anyone to do that to me, is immensely appealing."

& you need to read CC to get these ideas? in many circles, this would be considered to be merely basic psychological healthiness. personally, i think it's too simplistic, and ignores the appropriate roles which hierarchies may play in life...

"Again, anyone looking to CC to be a "guru" should have known better if they'd but read and understood don Juan's teachings - there is an episode where CC tells don Juan that people had written in to him to say that he was wrong to disclose don Juan's teachings, because certain eastern masters insisted on total secrecy regarding their offerings. Don Juan replied that perhaps these "masters" were indulging in being "masters"; he was a humble warrior whose immpecable spirit would never permit him to be anyone's master!"

you try to argue against taking CC as a guru, and then proceed to quote straight from his writings!

the quote, once again, reeks of false humility. i find it rough going even trying to begin to argue these points, because, quite simply, don juan was not a real person; he was quite clearly castaneda's little fantasy. don juan's statements invariably strike me as being goofily pretentious...comic book Crackerjack box style "wisdom".

"CC was far from perfect, as he himself acknowledged. As far as I know, he never held a gun to anyone's head and insisted that they be "followers". Unfortunately it is in the make-up of fools to worship fallible personalities - but it is still their choice! I don't worship CC, but my judgement is that he made available to me something extremely valuable. And I'm sure that in the process, he himself paid a very heavy price."

???... i think the only price he paid was the fallout in his life resulting from being deceitful, to both intimates and the general public. i'm sure he wanted readers to imagine that he suffered greatly in his quest for wisdom/power/warriorship, but that is almost certainly more of his b.s. and quite in keeping with his narcissism and other psychopathological tendencies...yes, i'm sure he suffered greatly, sitting there in the ucla library, dreaming up stories about meeting a shaman at a greyhound bus station.

"A moral - if you want to study the messenger, do so by all means - but don't peremptorily discard the message just because its bringer is flawed. Amen!"

in this case, i'd say that the messenger was deeply flawed, (and disturbingly so)...and though you and others claim to have benefited from the message, it remains a puzzle to me as to how his writings would serve in any capacity, except perhaps as diversion-- or a period curiosity, or a study in psychopathology.

[Buzz]

David,

You have got to be one of those Sustained Reaction folks. No one else hates or fails to see the value in CC's stuff. I'm sorry Carlos hurt you but he always warned us in his books that he was nuts, even if it was through some other character.

[David Orange]

buzz wrote:
"You have got to be one of those Sustained Reaction folks. No one else hates or fails to see the value in CC's stuff."

on the contrary, i'm quite sure many people have contempt for his stuff and fail to find anything worthwhile therein... i've always heard the expression "so-and-so doesn't suffer fools gladly" & thought, 'well, i'm actually not one of those kinds of people...i actually have quite a bit of patience for foolish people'. but i draw the line at castaneda and his ilk: con artists dispensing drivel.

"I'm sorry Carlos hurt you but he always warned us in his books that he was nuts, even if it was through some other character."

he didn't "hurt" me; i have never read his stuff with any conviction whatsoever & and generally tried to stay as far away from it as possible. when i first heard of his writings, i was mildly curious, but also felt wary for some reason. then i learned more about the man and his history...

his books are crap! there is soooo much worthwhile stuff out there...why do people waste time with his penny-ante ersatz shamanism? i mean, if you're hungry, cook a good meal, or go to a decent restaurant...don't settle for mcdonald's!

'adi da' warned people that he was nuts too; i'm not lining up for his teachings either. or bhagawan shree rajneesh/osho whatever you call him-- 'i'm crazy...i'm dangerous...the guru is crazy, dangerous'. more often than not this is bs coming out of the mouth of someone who has become so wrapped up in their own lies that they end up believing/deceiving themselves.

[Woodpecker]

David, your anger is beautiful, man. :D

A small personal reaction to Castaneda and don Juan. A friend of my parents lent me the first five books when I was 12 or 13. I devoured them. Felt that finally here was a cosmovision I could get into. At that age I had already been turned off to organized religion, and atheism struck me as, well, empty.

So it felt like Carlos, and Juan-or-whoever-he-was, really did me a favor at that point. If I'm posting here now, it goes back to that first encounter.

Reread the first book about five years ago and found a lot to like in it. Reread the third book, "Journey to Ixtlan," two years ago and hated it, barely finished it, and found it idiotic and depressing.

Carlos's characters have these stubborn certainties, things that only they and a handful of others know. Like, that everyone is actually a luminous egg. And they cling like ticks to this idea. And they don't seem to have jobs, or do work of any kind other than stalking.

Toward the end of "Ixtlan," as discussed in the Sam Keen interview, there's this stupid scene where Carlos's car vanishes. And the book ends with this depressing evocation of how ... well, I won't spoil it further for anyone who might want to read it.

Ironic: "Ixtlan" had been one of my favorites, way back when.

It was as if the book itself had changed in the meantime--not me.

Still, though, I feel like the books raised me up to a higher level; they broke open my head (to coin a phrase); they showed me that the world could be a place for mystery and wonder.

The scene in the first book where Carlos eats peyote and ends up playing with the dog is a fantastic classic. I'd trade the entire Smurfs TV series for that one scene.

I repeat: Carlos was a coyote. If you want to praise him, that's OK, he deserves it. If you want to mop the floor with him, that's OK, he probably deserves that too.

[daniel]

David Orange: "i find the "warrior" metaphor when applied to spirituality to be rather irksome."

I suggest you read "Shambhala: Sacred Path of the Warrior" by Trungpa - a neat little masterpiece.

Personally I've taken a lot of great tidbits from the CC books. For instance, I really liked Don Juan saying he had discarded his personal history. Also The Art of Dreaming had a lot of resonance with some of my experiences.

Instead of putting down, why don't you do some raising up: If you don't dig Castaneda, where do you go for trickster shamanic inspiration?

[David Orange]

Woodpecker,
i really appreciate your sharing your experiences, thanks. actually, i appreciate everybody's here; it's just that castaneda is (obviously) a sore point with me.

Daniel, thanks for the recommendation. actually i have read "shambhala" and nearly everything else i could get my hands on by chogyam trungpa... & i think it's all garbage. no, no, no...just kidding. ;)

in fact, i find trungpa to be absolutely brilliant on paper, and from what i've heard he was amazing in person as well. (...and i'm more than familiar with all of the controversies surrounding him, as documented in "The Naropa Poetry Wars" and other places. incidentally, "Cave in the Snow", the biography of ani tenzin palmo contains some passages which shed some interesting light on trungpa.) that being said, i personally still find the spiritual warrior idea to be irritating...or maybe not so much the idea that it represents, but rather the imagery.

i guess i fear that it will be interpreted the wrong way...like "jihad", instead of being seen as a battle against the internal elements which separate one from "god", it may be interpreted as being a call to arms against those who do not follow one's own belief systems. and even when interpreted in the most benign way, it still seems to me to be an odd way of realizing nonduality or unity with the divine...like the oxymoronic notion of a "war for peace". i think it may contribute to people needlessly beating up on themselves, & in the process hinder any positive spiritual processes at work.

since you & countless others report finding inspiration in castaneda's work, i suppose i should not quarrel with that...but the part about discarding one's personal history disturbs me. it sounds too much to me like a psychopath's program. discarding one's conditioning is one thing; but throwing away one's personal history? to be replaced with what? self-mythologizing in order to seduce others?

quite possibly i misunderstand what castaneda is getting at with this idea, but in his case at least, it seems that it was used for dubious purposes. i understand that from one perspective it's fair to say that all of history, including one's own personal biography, is essentially myth...but it seems to me that there is a distinction which needs to be made between internalizing that realization in order to better understand the nature of reality, and the use of that idea as an excuse to lie to others about one's personal background, experiences, qualifications, etc.

in america i suppose that we have always had a special place in our culture for a loveably roguish sort of yarn-spinner...but as i remarked in above posts, i think that there is a benign manifestation of that in the persons of say, mark twain, or w.c. fields...while a more sinister manifestation gets us castaneda-like personalities (i.e., bogus spiritual "authorities"), or even the george bush gang. a fanciful imagination with a penchant for stretching the truth can be a wonderful thing in the sphere of the arts, but in spirituality or politics it can turn sinister pretty quickly.

i know that re castaneda i've been putting down, putting down, and putting down some more...but can one be positive all the time? and is it wise to be silent as one witnesses what one perceives to be charlatanism? in some cases, maybe yes, as questionable actions sometimes automatically lead to the downfall those involved, without the need for whistleblowers and such. but when castaneda's books continue to do well in the marketplace and to be read with enthusiasm, and folks seem either unaware of his questionable methods or curiously unbothered by them, then perhaps it is wise for those who are concerned/bothered to speak up a little.

in addressing the question of where do i personally go for shamanic "trickster" inspiration, well, i have to apologize, but i don't really have a satisfactory answer or any great suggestions. in an above post i mentioned something about comedians; & while i guess they're not shamans in the strict sense, they certainly can be adept at tweaking reality enough to provide us with a momentary glimpse of sanity. & while i wouldn't consider t. mckenna to have been a shaman in the strictest sense (nor did he himself), i certainly appreciated his sense of humor and astonishing breadth of mind.

i used to go straight to the source (in my case, particularly mushrooms) itself, but it was communicated to me that i was sorta wasting the time of those willing to teach...as i didn't have specific intent and was not really serious/commited enough in the enterprise. (maybe castaneda's teachings on warriorship would have helped me there? *shrug*) so now, as a result of that (...and also some other circumstances), i am for the time being only vicariously a psychonaut. perhaps if conditions line up just so once again, and i am in the mindset to be less of a silly monkey and more of a serious human being, then i will have the opportunity to go straight to that source once again.

[daniel]

perhaps what you dislike about the term "spiritual warrior", is that it demands immediate here-and-now engagement from the practicioner, instead of a lot of whiffle-waffling with words.

"If one man kills a hundred men, and another man masters himself, that second man is the greater warrior." -- Buddha

[David Orange]

daniel,
i can only guess that you're suggesting this because my posts here tend to be so darn wordy.

in truth i don't think you could be more wrong on this matter-- i'm notoriously (and my friends would probably add, maddeningly) taciturn among the people in my daily life...and the only "writing" i really do besides here is the occasional email to friends. however, if you want to accuse me of passivity and/or procrastination, then that's a different story! smile.gif

what i dislike about the term is the macho heavy-handedness implied by its use; i feel it's both unnecessary and inappropriate.

[jezebelle]

Carlos was real. And his story was real. I knew someone who knew carlos (back in the day) and like in the interview he was a total intellectual boob.
He changed, as did all of us. But the issue is bigger than one quadrant of the brain, and the glosses that go along with it. After a certain point the best things (direct experiences) are difficult to express in a linear fashion. Perhaps that is why he was chosen for the vehicle of expression for our generation (being a three-pronger as opposed as a four pronger being- like the old-timers in Castanda's day). Its was his capacity for verbal expression; to reach clumps like us, still trying to awaken in our body to the awareness therein and therefore thereout.

[StSimon]

Originally posted by David Orange:
since you & countless others report finding inspiration in castaneda's work, i suppose i should not quarrel with that...but the part about discarding one's personal history disturbs me. it sounds too much to me like a psychopath's program. discarding one's conditioning is one thing; but throwing away one's personal history? to be replaced with what? self-mythologizing in order to seduce others?
Personal history is one more limitation. Your sense of self defines how you can interact with the universe. Only when you eliminate this last dearly held illusion can you open yourself up to experience without presupposition. Our interactions with friends and family contribute to our idea of who we are as we try to live up to their ideas of us; it is frightening to turn your back on that support, but only without them can you find yourself.

I have no problems in finding inspiration in Castenda's work, despite the dubious nature of his research. His writings spoke to me in a way that seemed to reach out of the book and address parts of my life directly. I had trip experiences that mirrored parts in the books. I don't care if don Juan "actually" existed or not, to me the question seems moot. If your only guage for truth is literalness, then you fall into the same trap of contemporary Christianity -- by insisting on the literal interpretaion of the Bible, trying to prove the flood or the Ark of the Covenant or the Resurrection in order to validate their beliefs, they overlook the deep truths about the human condition contained therein.

[David Orange]

StSimon writes:
"Our interactions with friends and family contribute to our idea of who we are as we try to live up to their ideas of us; it is frightening to turn your back on that support, but only without them can you find yourself."

right, but that's all conditioning, not personal history. unless i misunderstand castaneda's, er, don juan's "teaching" on this matter, erasing your personal history is akin to what happens when you're put into the fbi's witness protection program-- the way in which you represent your background to others no longer corresponds with your actual origins. that's what castaneda did with his own personal history, anyway, intentionally cultivating an air of mystery about himself and lying about his past... he changed his name, claimed to know languages that he didn't, claimed to have seen wartime service in the military though no service record could be found, falsely claimed that a brazilian diplomat was his uncle...

StSimon again:
"...If your only guage for truth is literalness, then you fall into the same trap of contemporary Christianity..."

I have many more problems with castaneda's writings besides the lack of "literal" truth. for one, the "teachings" within strike me as being insipid, half-baked doggerel. yeah, the bible is not literally true, but still has some worthwhile parts...i suppose that's one reason why it's endured for so long. castaneda's work, though, besides not being based on the truth which he purported it to be, to my mind has little to contribute to readers who are expecting any more than a goofy fantasy story; especially when compared to the other great and truly worthwhile stuff that is out there. CC's books will not even be around a hundred years from now, let alone thousands.

[Buzz]

Another aspect of "erasing personal history" is to free oneself from the trappings of your ancestors. Such as, for myself, everyone of the males over 70, on both sides of my family, have gotten prostrate cancer. I have been trying to counter this by using saw palmetto. In a sense this is breaking the personel history thingy just by trying something none of the above mentioned folks tried. I think any counter culture type has endured the ridecule of new age remedy, yoga, what have you got. My sister-in-law and mother ask my wife every time they see her if she is "still a vegetarian". She's been a vegetarian for 30 years.

[StSimon]

Originally posted by David Orange:
I have many more problems with castaneda's writings besides the lack of "literal" truth. for one, the "teachings" within strike me as being insipid, half-baked doggerel.
From what I gather from your comments so far, your opinion on the subject was made up before you read Casteneda -- no wonder you find it "insipid, half-baked doggerel." Already convinced you will find nothing of value, you are certain not to.

How many times have I wished my revelations came to me in the language of angels but suffered for the innane lyrics of some poptrash I hate? Despite the dressing of the message, if it speaks to the moment I must aknowledge its usefulness.

[Leon]

re the warrior idea and value of CC's writings. David Orange's comments got me thinking. Have to say that while I do love the books and find much of value I find myself agreeing that when you get down to it it is a Distraction (a sleeping pill?). A way of avoiding being here now. Like the story about the man searching the world for a jewel and not finding it because it was on his forehead all the time. I feel it's all ways to awakening though.
Have got this quote in my head (T.S. Eliot):

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

that's better. This is a distraction too of course, all these discussions. But better not think too hard about it lest it disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable!

[Em]

LEON

You've totally missed don Juan's central offering. It absolutely deals with the "here and now" - the whole point of the teachings is to try and help you to understand the nature of reality (as far as our perception will allow it), and how to deal with it most effectively and efficiently. It gives you an ultimate goal to aspire to - to retain your awareness, and fly off into that infinity -; it describes what you need to attain that goal - an impeccable warrior's spirit - and a number of techniques requiring personal changes as a method of getting there (much like buddhism, only, to me, much more inspirational).

StSIMON

You are right to stick with the message, though the messenger may have been far from perfect. I find it a bit sickening to see the level of abuse heaped on CC. However badly his ego may have let him down over the years, my understanding is that it was far from easy for him to live the life.

As for the Orange, I'm sorry to say it but your ignorance of this topic shines forth like a billion suns. Please do us all a favour and take your rabid rants elsewhere (and I don't know what it means, but in other contexts I actually find myself agreeing with the odd word that you spew, I mean 'write').

I must admit I find it frustrating to read a lot of these posts because it is clear to me that even though many of you say that you find CC valuable, my own view is that within don Juan's lessons are the answers or pointers to almost, if not all, the discussions going.
But I do realise that reality, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder, and that everyone needs to tread their own path, and acquire their own understandings, and work with things that have meaning for them; and on that basis, I wish you all well with your struggles.

[Leon]

I agree with your summary of CC - and that's why I like his writings - they are a very inspiring and comprehensive system for increasing your awareness. My point about wandering around looking for the jewel came from an idea I have found, basically 'being here now'. Since first reading about Don Juan I have read blue (see previous post) and the idea which sums up those posts is 'stop jumping up and down in front of the tree screaming 'where's the tree?' '. They say let go - stop searching. I believe if you are trying to change by following any path or system of self improvement however accurate and beneficial then you're missing the point of being who you are right now - and also missing the fact that we're perfect as we are. This all gets a little ambiguous and difficult to put into words but that's my attempt. Following your bliss comes into this too I think.
Namaste!

[David Orange]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leon:
"They say let go - stop searching. I believe if you are trying to change by following any path or system of self improvement however accurate and beneficial then you're missing the point of being who you are right now - and also missing the fact that we're perfect as we are. This all gets a little ambiguous and difficult to put into words but that's my attempt. Following your bliss comes into this too I think."

leon, i think that what you're getting at here is important. the "search" or the quest for self-improvement can easily become an obstacle to the very thing that we're attempting to do...

& i reckon that many people have a difficult time with the "follow your bliss" thing because they have been inculcated with so many ideas about what they should really desire, who they really are, how things are supposed to be done in the "real world"...so it seems to me that any path must be one of discarding received ideas rather than adding more stuff to the heap. only then will we be able to act from a place of authenticity and express our unique natures. oftentimes we are all too willing to hand over authority to others, when we would likely be better off looking deep within ourselves for guidance...

not to mention the fact that the very word "bliss" can be a big stumbling block for people brought up in judeo-christian influenced cultures...as the tendency is to associate bliss, happiness, ecstasy, etc. with sin of some sort. on a personal level, it can also be difficult to feel deserving of happiness when one witnesses all of the suffering in the world...

it occurs to me that some people who have managed to slough off much of their judeo-christian conditioning then seek to replace the guidance of their previous religious sources of authority with the nearest guru, channeled source, etc. the message of sin/atonement may be replaced with that of light and love/ufo friends or whatever, but the same dynamic of submitting to a particular authority is still at work here. i guess a psychotherapist would say that we're still looking for a "daddy" figure to tell us what to do.

i'm not condemning the idea of gurus, teachers, etc., but rather suggesting that when one looks to external sources for guidance one should make darn sure that one is dealing with a decent person. i like the traditions which state that the guru/teacher is an external manifestation/projection of our "inner guru"...this doesn't, of course, grant one immunity from being exploited by unconscionable persons, but i think that it can help serve as a reminder to exercise one's sense of discrimination in these matters.

[Agent Smith]

LOL...'luuuuucy I'm hoooooome' hahahahahahaha... I was just saying some unkind things about mr.castaneda on some other threads when I found this one... who says the govt.'s program to introduce drugs into youth culture has failed? looks like a roaring success to me, and CC played an intersting, if not vital role in that operation on the 'spiritual' front. I hadn't actually considered castaneda as an agent of propaganda, but now it's fairly clear.

CC's fraudulence is pretty well documented, he stiched together pithy sounding concepts from various sources, and repackaged them for his audience. his successful deployment of the classic tactic of 'appearing to be less competent than you are' visa vis, 'don juan's' criticisms of him, neatly absolve him of seeming competent when his lies were exposed. again, the documentation is all over the net. and actually I must give some credit to the people who run some supportive websites, although they 'believe' the core of his 'teachings' they were very candid about revealing some of the factual inaccuracies of his narrative. I highly recomend people seriously interested in CC to check out "the sorcerer's apprentice". it's all there for people who have the eyes to see. LOL, in retrospect it's obvious CC is a marvelous agent.

[LucasWinfield]

Let's use a bit of our much-maligned reason here folks. Why do we feel the need to believe CC? Could it be ingrained need for experts to guide us? How about a little working hypotheses eh? The practical parts about how to save and rechannel your energy are pretty straight-forward and obvious even from a psychological perspective. After that, you either start perceiving shit or you don't. If you do, like I have (am), then great, you can start your own personal verification process. But remember it's the reactionary mind that has to "know" to feel comfortable, and the socialized mind that needs to know the private life of his guru to know whether to continue. I honestly couldn't care less if it turns out he molested little children. Is there a comparable internally consistent worldview of such scope in modern literature?

[Em]

Hey Lucas,

We now live in Kali Yuga, but luckily 2012 is just around the corner; this means that it is deeply fashionable to treat CC like a true child molester, and totally ignore don Juan's teachings!

For what its worth, I'm with you - the internal consistency and scope of don Juan's world view is immense.

Keep up the good fight, and best of luck.

[Agent Smith]

who is accusing him of child molestation? I just said he was a fraud and a liar, and a pretty well documented one at that. Far from ignoring 'don juan' who doesn't seem to exist (oh, of course unless you count 'non-ordinary reality' with which some of us--probably all of us-- were having experience long before we read cc or were hoodwinked into doping up) I've take a hard critical look at the information offered, and decided to get better information. Something the 'Don Juan' of the stories I read at least would probably encourage.

Since it was mentioned in another thread, I whole heartedly agree that we need our best minds on this stuff, and to add to that I would say that not only do we need our best minds, but we need to be using our most accurate, and reliable information. Granted in these realms the landmasses shift, and flow so no road map is going to statically remain stable, and accurate forever... however jumping in with both feet into quicksand isn't going to help. There be monsters out here! Just about the only thing I can give Castaneda props for is not making his fantasy world a sugar coated gum drop land, where every thing is 'luv'n'lite', and hinted that there might be some danger involved in these areas of inquiry. Still I believe that he did more harm than good, I run into more bogus shamans in a week than I can shake a rattle at. Yeah, I called 'em FAKES, spiritual realitivism muddys the waters for serious students. I was psychically attacked by one this weekend, and he honestly believed that he was 'acting out of love' (perciving me as a spiritually 'dark' being) fortuanately he was such an incompetent boob I could just ignore him. Unfortunately he's going to give everyone else who is serious a bad name.

Well whatever. believe what you want, you will anyways. Personally I'm not going into 'Kali Yuga' armed with a bunch of moldy lies, fairy tales, and wishful thinking from known liars. Not that what I come up with will be any more, or less valid than anyone elses horse shit, but at least it will be mine. :rolleyes:

[Buzz]

For me, reading Castenada inspired me to:
1. Spend more time in nature
2. Explore the Mystery
3. get healthy

Nothing any of his de-bunkers have written (and I spent at least a couple of years at the Sustained Reaction forum) about him has ever inspired me. It's down right depressing.

David and Agent aren't stupid however. I've read enough of what you two have to say about other topics to see that. I think that you guys just see the glass as half-empty and I see it as half-full.

[daniel]

And as any sorceror will tell you, perception is reality.

[searcher]

I have enjoyed Carlos books over the years. I think he is an entertaining writer. I have serious doubts that he was a Shaman. In fact, I think he was full of shite! But, I did enjoy his writings. I think he read a lot of books, and then used them to his advantage. I seriously doubt that many characters in his books ever existed and even if they were real there would be
no way to prove that they did exist. What I mean is this. I have friends and family who are dead.
I would love to see them. I can not. I have tried as best I know how (to see) them. Carlos was interesting but offered me nothing of what I considered to be help. As far as I can tell, NO ONE GETS OUT OF HERE ALIVE! And his so called death defier just seemed like a rather tall tale to me. Perhaps he was trying to describe something that was not describable. But, i mean come on... Carlos is the only one I have ever read that described such things as death defiers.
No one else I am aware of has. I think the vail is much harder to penetrate than some would lead us to belive. I hope I am wrong but, I don't think so. Otherwise, Leary and Mckenna would be channeling and just hijacking the net on forums like this and revealing all. Ok, flame the newbie now. ;) .... but to be honest, there ain't much new about me, just new to posting to this forum. I respecty different points of view but,.... :rolleyes:

[Mindslide]

Hi, I've been reading this great forum for quite awhile but this is my first post.

I've been particularly interested in this thread because personally I really enjoyed Castaneda's books and I'm surprised how much some people here seem to hate him.

Now I'm not here to debate whether he was a total fraud and made everything up. It now seems likely that was the case, although I had no knowledge of that when I read his books around ten years ago when I was about 18.

Personally I don't care whether it's pure fiction or not. What I do care about is that reading Castaneda's books was the catalyst to being where I am now, and having some of the most profound life changing experiences I could ever hope to have.

If it wasn't for reading Castaneda ten years ago I doubt I would have ever taken such a deep interest in hallucinogens and the nature of reality and perception. I doubt I would have gone on to read more brilliant books such as those by Terrance McKenna, and I doubt I would have been in Brazil earlier this year having my life completely changed by Ayahuasca.

So Carlos, if you're reading this from the spirit world. I don't care whether you're a complete fraud or not. Your books changed my life for the better, and for that I'll be eternally grateful.

Wildheart

[Mindslide]

Whoops, If anyone's wondering why I signed my last post as Wildheart, it's cos I use that name on a chat program. Anyway call me what you like. Mindslide, Wildheart or just Andy :)

[Charlie]

Hi, Searcher,

No one will flame you for expressing your opinions here…However, to the contrary of what you write, I know many people who say the veil is actually easier to penetrate that most think…

For example, without getting too flaky here, I know a female channeller who has been contacted several times “from the other side”, always within a few days of a person’s death. I can be a pretty cynical guy, but there was enough evidence to show me these contacts indeed occurred...

She said these messages are like vibrations or frequencies, one only has to “tune in”, while turning off the internal filter we all have, which categorizes sensory input and makes judgments about it. She insists anyone can do it. Personally, I think mom and dad’s genes only gave me AM/FM, without any of these special sidebands. ;)

She, and many other folk I know who operate in similar realms, have a lot of respect for Castenada’s writings, especially in the area of dreamwork, and his framework of the spiritual warrior.

[Z]

This post is a bit late in the thread, but with all the talk of Don Juan being made up & looking toward *real* spiritual teachers, remember that Lao Tzu was probably similarly made up. I don't mean to be another person attacking David Orange, especially because I agree with many of the things he has to say, but just thought I'd bring that up.

Also, there was mention of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche... I've never read any of his stuff and he may be a spiritual genius & as such take from him what you will... but keep in mind that the man was a boozer and appointed a sucessor who he knew was spreading AIDS to half of Boulder. Doesn't mean he didn't have anything to say, but I think the whole package should be considered when choosing teachers to learn from because, on some level, what is important is how all this strange & esoteric stuff translates down to actions in mundane life.

[daniel]

Hi Z,

My "take" on Trungpa is that he consciously accepted a "suicide mission," recognizing that the only way to communicate with the (post-Beat and hippie) counterculture fringe of the US (which was also the emergent culture of spiritual seekers here) was to completely adopt their lifestyle and habits including drugs, booze, etc. - to the detriment of his own practice, and his eventual self-destruction.

[Z]

Daniel,

That seems reasonable to a degree - you'd think that the man would be able to control himself a bit better. &, my God, the business with his sucessor is absolutely insane.

And another thought about Castaneda & Don Juan - now this is all opinion, mind you - to me, it seems that taking Don Juan seriously is like taking Gandalf seriously. Each of them probably have something to offer, but its easy to make somone seem enlightened when you're writing about them in a fictional novel.

If Castaneda just said that his stories were fiction I don't think they'd be any less valuable. I hate to see people fall into this sort of trap (Erich von Daniken is another example). I read most of Castaneda's books, and though I found most entertaining, the only one that I took anything practical from was the Art of Dreaming. Great for learning to lucid dream.

[undefined]

this conversation seems to be dying down. that's a little disapointing. there has to be much more that needs to be discussed about the work of cc.
hey z, when you say practical, do you mean like a ford focus is pratical in the city. a fork is more practical than chopsticks a highway is more practical than a pathway a department head is more practical than a pothead insurance is more practical than insecurity comfort is more practical than sacrifice an airplane is more practical than an astral plane
order is more practical than chaos
prozac is more practical than peyote
fear is more practical than danger
arrogance is more practical than vulnerability
denial is more practical than impeccability
that is, of course, unless we were all going to die.

oh my god, i'm so sorry i totally lost myself for a minute there
has anyone else noticed that orange dude whatever's statments of opposition were a major driving force for much of this conversation. strange that the least entheusiastic gave rise to its opposite.

hey daniel, i read breaking open the head about a year ago. it broke open my head. i mean more than it already was. (pick up, pick up, pick up the broken pieces pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up the broken peace)

who said that?
i think i remember you saying something about some green gnomes that got really excited when you were able to focus you're perception on them. i think i know how they must have felt. or maybe my head's not broke enough to know, but that was one thing that i thought of when i read about don juan's inorganic beings in the authors commentary (teachings of don juan- 30th anniversary eddition)
i plan to read you're book again sometime. it was a great documentary.
but what if none of it really happened? you may be a freaky ego man, or a spooky government man (ooooo)
or maby a new age kooky man!
i'm 30 and i'm still afraid of the dark so if you are one of those things let me know right now so i can go buy myself an atkins-friendly subway wrap and check myself into one of those hospitals for people whose existance threatens the unawareness of everyone else.

[undefined]

i agree with lucas winfield's last statement on december 16th, and not because my middle name is lucas.
(Let's use a bit of our much-maligned reason here folks. Why do we feel the need to believe CC? Could it be ingrained need for experts to guide us?)
i suggest, though, that we keep our "maligned reason" on a leash, for reason is a dog in the park (running around in circles, barking at everybody). it is a frightening condition of humanity that the more intellegent of us should wake up (for me, tragically, this happened very early in life) and find that we are all running in circles. metaphorically, i think, this is one of many of the crossroads where our lives might relate to carlos' character;
standing in the darkness of a the forest, still yet in the eve of his awakening, he suddenly finds hemself in a desperate situation. vaguely aware that he is stalked by death, and his nagual having left him far behind, carlos must now learn the GAIT OF POWER to move himself through the darkness or risk being devoured by a dark mass that is seemingly inescapable.

my point is this; if one should wake up to find himself surrounded by darkness, with a true sense of life unmanifest in his experience, one might find exhilaration in "letting go the leash" of reason, and learning his own GAIT OF POWER.

i have much more to say about this but it's past my beadtime. i'll be back later.

[daniel]

Instead of running in a circle, could you find yourself at the center of one?

[undefined]

by definition- 3: an area of action or influence 4: cycle 5: a group bound by a common tie -; to find myself at the center of a circle might be a desireable prospect, though this seldom happens, and is always short-lived. the pull to "be normal" is like a bad habit when one is faced with the "frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are or where we're going in this ocean of caos." (leary)

[undefined]

that was one of many possible answers for a somewhat
vague question. if i am missing your point, daniel, please elaborate. i would like us to be clear on this.
when i suggest that someone is "running in circles" (as opposed to actually geting someware), i do not mean that I am, or some people are. nor am i suggesting that this is something that no one should do; it is not a moral statement.
what i am refering to is the idea that every person, who could be considered a part, of the whole of any modern industrial society, is engaged by default, in a stagnant, circular role. by role i mean that everyone is assigned a part to play in upholding the structure of the society that they are born into. the structure was built on fear, fear of the abyss of the unknown depths of consiousness (what might happen), and consequently, fear is built into the structure. it is the mortar between the bricks, the sticky stuff that holds everything together.
this is our system, and i contend that, if we look closely, that the primary motivation behind human ambition, in general, is fear; fear of what will happen if you don't, fear of what will happen if you do, fear of rejection, of lonlieness, sickness, and death. fear of discomfort, fear of the past. in fact so much fear of the past that we often ignore it to the point of having to repeat it; AND ROUND AND ROUND WE GO.

[undefined]

perhaps i am in the center of a circle, and i am dying to get out.

[IMAZOO]

These exchanges, challenging the authority of Holy Father don Juan and his dutiful apprentice, Blessed Carlos, prompts this reply.
December '73, just a few weeks following the virgin's ingestion of "window-pane" acid, (does anyone remember that varnish-like chip of pure d-lysergic?) this guy was introduced to the writings of castaneda.
At the time, literary resources available to make sense, in any fashion,
the transfiguring experience induced by LSD
were quite limited.
For me, it was reassuring to keep company with an author who affirmed my experience and in some vague measure, gave instructions for further travels.
It transmitted a palpable charge that was delicious to the eye balls
not unlike
...the well written, can't put it down, but have to put it down, gotta savor the remaining pages
because the ecstacy ends when the last word is read...
Breaking Open the Head.
For me, questioning the historical validity of the bible, bhagavad-gita, navajo creation stories or any other sacred scripture is to miss the point.
White men in white lab coats feel obliged to poke, pick and strip,
efeminate the magic, emasculate the mystery
spilling the nectar hidden inside the pulp.

[ February 06, 2004, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: IMAZOO ]

[Buzz]

I have not read any of Carlos's books since his death in 1998 until recently. After so many years of "smear campaigning" at places such as Sustained Action, the books still have the power. I will post more later, but generally, I have to think that Carlos had informers/teachers, as he was 30 years ahead of the kind of information coming out now that, to me, that verifies his research. I do not think he always got the story right, but the organization principles of sorcery that he wrote about are accurate and way ahead of his time. Unless he was decades ahead in researching the occult, and the most brilliant western man on earth. And I kind of doubt that.

[Gift Horse]

Hello all who post here.
I was attracted to this forum because of the discussion about Carlos Castenada.
The ensuing discussion has been fascinating and has prompted me to Login and ask a queston or two.
I would like some opinions/experiences with the book The Four Agreements.
After reading all of CC's books and enjoying them immensely, I was thrilled to discover Miguel Ruiz's work of the 4 agreements. I welcomed the straightforwardness of his words, It gave me something to do on my own, without having to find a Yaqui Indian as my quide.
I haven't read "Breaking Open the Head" but it looks very intriguing as well.
Do the majority of the posters here imbibe in ethnogens?

[Buzz]

Hi Jennie,

I read Ruiz's book three or four years ago. The best I can recall is it was a good read but can't remember the details. I think he had a heartattack recently and he likes the babes from what I hear. I heard him talk on the internet, and it really sucked. But then again I write much better than I speak, at least off the cuff.

I'd personally be a little leary of any of the authors out there who claim they are Toltecs. Read them but don't worship them. Your girlfriend, boyfriend, husband or wife probably has more concern for you as a person.

But what do I know?

[Buzz]

I thought to add that when a teacher is needed they will show up. And given that you may want to look atthe "Spirit Guides" thread and keep an open mind as to the form they may take. Castenada's Don Juan used to say that some get a teacher, and your power will determine that, but some never get a benefactor.

[Gift Horse]

Thanks Buzz,

I am leary of teachers and gurus having been caught up with one back in the 70's.
I believe I read the quote in Be Here Now by Ram Dass that when you are ready your teacher will show up. So what did I do?
I nabbed the next available Guru--Guru Maharaji-aka-Prem Rawat-aka- Lord of the Universe.
I felt after 10 years I was just spinning my wheels. He had highjacked my spirituality.
I am just now claiming what used to be my interests....which has led me to Daniel's book and back to Toltec knowledge.
I just had a weekend retreat with don Miguel's son, don Jose. I am definitely guarded when it comes to teachers. I am not into worship anymore.But I DO value guidance from one who has been before me.
I guess I am seeking a balance.
Jennie

[daniel]

I think what is outdated is the notion that you will find one teacher or guru who will lead you toward spiritual jackpot.

I never had a teacher, but I have many teachers - people who know more than me in some areas, or are capable of feeling in ways that are not natural for me. Almost anyone can teach you something if the moment is right. Some people act as wellsprings of inspiration - even if they are not super-evolved in every way, themselves.

I don't like the ongoing, systemic habit of people setting themselves up as gurus - I don't think it is beneficial for people anymore. I understand that people like Ruiz and Castaneda (and, for that matter, myself) need to make a living, but there should be a way for them to present their knowledge without any pretence of hidden mastery or special access to a higher knowledge.

I suppose it is my Beat heritage. I like the Kerouac perspective that says: "You are a genius all the time," which goes for anybody, if and when they want to be.

[Buzz]

Good one Daniel. Books, dreaming and psychedelic drugs have all been my teachers. Everyday life verifies the teaching. I say that some books have power because I read them over and over and the story is always a little different. I generally see this as having grown since the last time I read it. If not grown, then changed. A different perception (or angle on it)is at play.

This has occured recently while re-reading Tales of Power by Castenada. I have always wondered why CC never seemed to address the UFO issue. To me they are a fairly common vision when I am outside at night,high on some sort of mind-altering substance. I have also had some real strange things happen when I was entirely sober as well. But, as usual, CC does seem to report what he has witnessed without popular interpretation. This is what I ran across in TALES OF POWER that seems to describe a UFO.

To set it up, Pablito, Nestor and Carlos arrived at a pre-determined power spot to wait for Don Juan and Don Genaro. 50 yards in front of where they sat DJ and DG demonstrated the nagual. The nagual was seen by Carlos: "It was not a man as I normally see men. It was rather a ball of white fire; something like fibers of light covered it...I was seeing two strange elongated luminous objects. They looked like white irridesent footballs with fibers, fibers that had a light of their own."
"The two luminous beings shivered, I actually saw their fibers shaking then they whizzed out of site."
".....Genaro came to us, and sat behind Pablito and Nestor...Don Juan moved to the front...Don Juan ...(floated off the ground) and twirled around like a gymnast. In a semi-aware way I expected him to land on his feet again. He never did. His body kept on twirling above the ground. The circles were very rapid at first, then they slowed down. From where I was I could see don Juan's body hanging...from a thread like light. He whirled slowly as if allowing us to fully view him. Then he began to ascend to the top of the cliff....I got dizzy as I watched him. My feeling of getting ill seemed to trigger him to begin to whirl at a greater speed. He moved away from the cliff...I felt that the speed which his floating body had gained was blurring his shape; he looked like a rotating disk and then a light that was spinning....(then) he looked like a hat floating in the air, a kite that bobbed back and forth. pps. 222-226 Tales of Power pocketbook edition 1974.

When I was much younger I was debating w/ a friend (who with me witnessed great wonders such as UFO's). Marc made the comment that "who knows what we look like when we are flying in dreams". This thought has always remained at the forefront of my explaination of what UFO's are. They always seemed to be attracted to me when in a state of heightened awareness (drugs or no). They communicate somehow with the viewer. I have no experience with greys or reptiles or any other aliens. (at least not the typical encounters). However i don't dispute the reports. There are a lot of strange things in the world, and they probably do not all fit under the same umbrella.

[Agent Smith]

since my recent adventures in the ultra realms, i am convinced that CC was a cultural disinformation agent, bent on spreading confusion, and laying trip wires, and dead fall pits for sincere seekers, much like david icke, robert morehouse (who once told me in all seriousness that the scarab people were much worse than the reptilians), and walt disney. take drugs, go ahead, i invite you. expand your mind or your rectum, it's all the same to me what you people do. enjoy.

[Buzz]

Agent,

I'd have to place those folks who think Carlos was a CIA agent in with the paranoid delusional crowd.

What have you learned in your encounters with the unknown? Just like in academia, most are critics, and very few are creative. The creative, being in the minority, always get more heat. I visited Sustained Reaction yesterday, after months of absense and all I can say is that it is pathetic. Young, moronic trolls led by the egomanical Wesley (king of dreaming, you are wrong, he is right), Corey , a lawyer ("there are some things even a rat wouldn't do") and the star-struck superfluous crowd of Jeremy, Gabe, Greg, et al who knew CC and didn't get what they wanted from him. They are all victims of their own reason, and that is only half the story.

[Agent Smith]

I have never actually been over to 'sustained reaction' (to my conscious knowlege) althought I may have tripped over it in my research on CC's career. I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's much easier to crap on other folks, and criticise than to actually do something useful yourself. from the picture you paint of what's going on over at SR, I don't really need to check it out. I have established for myself that CC is a fake (discussed at much length in this thread, I won't bore your further, with THAT) so no need to hang out with people focusing on what they DON'T want.

you definitly caught on to the peevishness of my post, and for that I apologize.

as to 'paranoid delusions' LOL... all of mine are perfectly reasonable, and logical I assure you ;)

No lately I have come to believe that it is advantageous for certain...hmmmmm, we can call them 'currents' or memes to influence bodies of humans to do various things, and create various trends. The highjacking of spirituality, and consciousness exploration by the 'drug culture' IN FORCE in the '60's through the efforts of the likes of CC, and Leary seems to me to be one of those instances. I have met more acid casualties in the 'shamanism circut' then almost anywhere else, and zapheads always justify their use of neuroscramblers as being part of a long tradition of psychadelic sorcerers, who of course knew all about the butt plug shaped machine elf gnome sugar daddies, and the paladiean carpet lice high command blah, blah, blah... I know that I sure used to.

People who are serious about results, in my experience avoid these like the plauge.

no, my recent on going experience is that reality doesn't resemble 'the matrix' at all... it's alot more like a really smoothy edited conglomeration of 'They Live', 'Videodrome', 'Dark City', and the brilliant 'Jose Chung' episode of the x-files.
('the matrix' being a culturebomb detonated in the massmindflow to discredit, cheapen, and deaden the impact of the very ideas it purports to illuminate.) the idea of memic, 'culture jamming', and infowar isn't paranoid in the slightest. it's pretty obvious if you're paying attention. I can't recomend konrad becker's 'Tactical Reality Dictionary' strongly enough to anyone, and everyone. just get it.

The one aspect of 'the matrix' that DID ring true with me was the phenomenea of the agents. (obviously) not the idea that there are nearly omnipresent beings of extream hostility, dedicated to enforcing control of 'the matrix' or consenus reality, but the concept that they could assume the form of ANY non conscious individual host. obviously I chose the name 'agent smith' with bitter irony... lol fortunately for me folks at some other paranoid forums lacked the wit to see that, and decided to take it literaly. this tipped me off to their complete, and utter lack of humor before I could become embroiled in their non-sense. (if you want to see an example of EXTREAM paranoid schizophernic delusions of occult persecution check out the orgonite and chemtrail buster communities.) the idea that I could suddenly become overcome by the forces of repession, control, oppresion, and fear, and in effect actually BECOME an agent of such things is alot more plausable to me now than the 'gee ted what if all of this were just a computer virtual reality simulation, duuuude?' hokum. the idea that I AM an agent, when I am ACTING like one. has become very interesting to me. The idea that agents of disinformation needn't be fully conscious of what they are doing has become entirely plausible to me now.

As for CC, and the CIA. well let's just say that psy-ops cultural programs are usually carried out through either entertainment, or accedemic institutions, funded by corperations, or think tanks.

my world is psychadellic enough without altering my brain chemistry thanks. (if anything drug use brought me further inside consensus reality, through enforced social codes, and ritual.)

[Charlie]

From Agent Smith:

“take drugs, go ahead, i invite you. expand your mind or your rectum, it's all the same to me what you people do. enjoy.”

I didn’t know what to make of this statement: whether you were speaking your mind, or sarcastically echoing what might be the credo of David Icke or Walt Disney. After reading your later statement, “my world is psychadellic enough without altering my brain chemistry thanks “ (sic), I now see you were being quite literal.

Frankly, I think it’s odd that someone with your attitude is contributing to what is clearly a forum where many people are currently (or have in the past) “altered their brain chemistry” as you so succinctly put it (p.s., nearly anything you eat, or anything you physically do, alters brain chemistry). Be that as it may, I’m glad you’re here, as a foil to all of us addled zapheads...

You do introduce some interesting ideas...which, since they are written on a public forum, instantly makes you an agent of whatever those ideas propagate. Chances are, the larger that public forum is, the more those ideas will be watered down to reach the least common denominator: who is namely me, and should be avoided like the plague.

“If anything drug use brought me further inside consensus reality, through enforced social codes, and ritual.” My answer to that is…TAKE STRONGER DRUGS. Huff a few hits of Salvia 10X, and I guarantee you will experience nothing which is consensual, social or ritualistic. Of course it won’t be a materialistic reality either, but in the burn-out, neuro-scrambled reality I live in, those concepts have no meaning, since my spirituality was highjacked long ago. I’m just here for the colors, dude…

I’m yanking your chain, because you deserve it (I wasn't insulted by what you wrote, nor would I encourage you to "huff" anything).

My point is, don’t slip into rhetoric—you’re better than that.

[ February 20, 2004, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[Agent Smith]

take stronger drugs? let me know when you've taken drugs suffiencently strong enough to illuminate to you why that's an idiotic statement. you have no idea how far down that road I've gone. You don't know from which point I started.

all I found in drug culture was enforced social conformity. have the right hair, wear the right clothes, speak the right lingo, share the right ideology, or be ostracized. no cosmic illumination, beyond what I had already known, no breakthroughs of consciousness, no freeing of my societal, or self imposed limitations, and certainly no increase in competence visilbe in either myself, or any of the people I had ever met. The world did not alter for me in any useful ways, except in so far as I was now able to better understand the view points of normal people alittle more clearly. MY world became a little more dull, and boring.

it was never my reality. I never consented.

they accomplished through reverse psychology what their psychologists couldn't. namely, getting me to take drugs, and 'see things their way'. the 'just say no' 'drug war' propaganda is curious in that by the time I was in 8th grade i knew more about the supposed effects of various drugs, than I did about history, health, mathmatics, literature, or anything you would normally associate with an education. and since I knew that they were lying to me about all of those things, I figured that they must have been lying to me about drugs too. of course they were, I just wasn't paranoid enough to figure out just how devious they were being. THEY WANT YOU TO TAKE DRUGS. w.s.burrough has a nice riff on LSD, claiming that it's exactly the kind of thing the govt. would want you to take, because it makes you less competent.

'everything you ingest has an effect on your brain chemistery'...aaaaah, now we're getting somewhere!!! have you heard of the new documentry that is currently being shopped around for a distributor? the director decided to eat 3 meals a day at Mcdonald's for a month. Everytime he was asked if he wanted to 'supersize' his meal he had to say yes, and eat everything he ordered. in one month he gain about 50lbs. and had injured his liver pretty badly. it will make for interesting viewing. if it ever gets released.

try this for an experiement-eat nothing but twinkies and RC cola for a few weeks.-or eat nothing but meat- or eat nothing but orgainc food for a month.- or eliminate all dairy- or all grains- or all cooked food- or all animal foods- try having nothing but fresh vegetable juices for a month.... try eating only certain things for an entire year... try eating only foods you prepared for yourself, after 15 minutes of meditation on how your future meal was going to nourish your being, whether it's RC, and moonpies, or lentil sprouts, and cabbage juice... try fasting, seasonally, or with the phases of the moon... try living on a diet of nothing but network television, and USA Today, try spending a week with out the printed word.... and then see if you still want 'stronger drugs'. I don't know maybe you already have.

to tell you the truth, I quit drugs out of boreddom. Once I was away for a while I realized that I was happily rid of a number of behaviors that no longer served me, if they ever did... and away from personalities that I found obnoxious. now that I am involved in 'shamanism', I run across people I refered to as 'zapheads' quite regularly, with all their scams, and ufo-space-brother-hijinx. whatever.

you wonder why I am here? I didn't realize this was a sizzlebrain party only. If daniel wants to take dmt, or cactus warts, fine. I think he's still on to a number of things that are quite relavent to the issues that seem to come up in my research, and experience of the world. I don't need 'ethnogens' to see spirits, travel to 'non-ordinary reality', or effect reality. You might not either.

and CC is still a fraud.

[Buzz]

Agent,

Castenada aside.
Given your past experiences how can you be sure that they were not what facilitated your present ability?

[Agent Smith]

hmmmm, lessee here.

before I started using LSD (which I took before I even drank a beer) I was being 'contacted' by various enteties, having all sorts of classic 'revelation' style visions, lots of typical 'psychic' experience type stuff... once I started using drugs however nearly all of that dropped off to just about ZERO. and didn't return until about 4-5 years after I quit, and began training in various disciplines (dream yoga, chi kung, autogenic conditioning, harner style shamanic journeying... interesting to note, that while I was using drugs -mostly (what passed for) LSD-mushrooms-and cannibis- I couldn't make the shamanic journeying techniques work at all.--)

the only thing that I can qualify this with is when it was time for me to quit using weed, the plant told me so, and induced THE FEAR every time I used it afterwards.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

Well... in the end (and there will be one... eventually) it doesn't matter what came in from outside; it's what resides inside. There is a lot of 'stuff' out there; from Walt and his amazing mouse, to Carlos and his amazing brujo. And, it is all out there . The drugs are 'out there'. The teaching is 'out there'. Don Miguel, Don Juan, and Don Pardo (Bardo?) are out there.

So... what's 'in here'? Inside of you?

Well, everything you need to know is in here, it's just buried under all that bullshit that keeps getting piled on, from sincere teaching to outright propaganda. Clean away the crap that's been pilled up and what is left is clear and pure... what's left is YOU

Perhaps it takes meditation, perhaps it takes psychoanalysis, perhaps it takes the TNT of DMT, to clear the crap away. Whatever it takes, do it, but be careful what you get into as you are clearing the crap. You don't clear the crap by piling more on. Not every teacher or guide willing to help you is a Selfless Servant of Mankind. Many have their own agenda. Many are just looking at you as either their meal ticket, or just their next meal.

To quote Mr. Dylan, "Don't follow leaders, watch yer' parkin' meters".

I agree with what Daniel and Jim DeKorne have said; there are people and things out there that are not always friendly to us (as we have all discovered), and just because someone or something says that they will help you to find your way to THE TRUTH, that doesn't mean that they will. As many of us have found out, there's a lot of crap out there.

So, why not go in? Clear the crap out for yourself. Take responsibility for yourself, which, I am very happy to note, seems to be what this page is all about.

Carlos? Doesn't matter to me. I have found that half of what he said is bullshit. The other half? Who knows. I know that he writes about places I've been, but, so what? I like to travel. I've been to a lot of places in my journeys, places I've visited, places where I don't live! I like to 'travel' and I like to learn new things, but I like where I live, and I like the person who lives there. And I spend a lot of time clearing away the crap that accumulates around the doorway. Maybe someday I'll get it all cleared out...

[mushanti]

hmm.. I've simply briefly perused and I keep seeing stuff on 'sustained reaction'. And one person refers to Sustained Action.

So as far as I know its Sustained Action, and for all of those who care to visit their site its here:
http://www.sustainedaction.org/

[Gift Horse]

To Dr. Smauel,

You mentioned that you are into shamanism "harner" style. how does this compare to say "The Four Agreements" style.

And is Daniel a shaman "style" ? You can answer that too, Daniel.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

What I said, in quotes, was, "Don't follow leaders, watch yer' parkin' meters". I don't follow Harner's style, although I agree with what I've read about him. I don't agree with the "Taste" of Don Miguel. I 'hear' Harner saying, "Explore, see for yourself". I hear Don Miguel saying "For the low, low price of $39.95 I will gild your soul; no preps, no ups!" like a sacred Earl Scheib.

Now, I may be 'hearing' something that neither one of them said, but I need to follow what is in me, and what is in me says 'lean this direction, not that one', so that's what I do.

We don't need gurus anymore even though we do need teachers. Our job is to know the difference. I'm sure there are many people who have been helped by the spurious and the grasping... I know I have... but there comes a time when you have to pass on all that and become responsible for yourself and your decisions. Just like those of the Nazi pursuasion, 'I was just following orders' is no excuse. Look inside. Pay attention.

Sam

[Agent Smith]

the way I understand it, Harner has been studying the various shaministic practices of indigenous peoples for a very long time. he began in the amazon, with ethnogens, but later as he researched more, and more world wide practices, he discovered that not all peoples use ethnogens, instead they would put themselves into trances using various methods. the one that he generally teaches folks is to 'enter the underworld' through the use of a drum, beating out a monontous beat, which induces the trance, and then find an opening to the 'lower world'... once there the beings/spirits will give you just about all the information you need to get going. very direct. i forget where he states that only 10% of shamanistic peoples used ethnogens to induce these states. I have of course had bitter, bitter arguements with the people I have mentioned previously, about this.

so please forgive my ire, I will operate from now on as if all of you are perfectly reasonable, and responsible folks who know that there is more than one way to skin a shuggoth ;)

[Gift Horse]

Hey no, I am on the some page as you.

When I was younger, I did some dabbling in mushrooms, Lsd, and peyote to gain insight for myself. I thoroughly enjoyed most of the "trips". Then I had children and with all the nursing I had little opportunity. Now that my children are mostly grownup I started looking into their use again.
I am very cautious because I have sugffered from severe migraines and depression for many years. Messing further with my brain chemistry doesn't seem like a good idea. Though books like Daniel's and websites like eurwid have me very intrigued.
So thanks Agent Smith, I am appreciative of the information about the non-drug avenues.
I attended a mitote with don Jose (4 agreements) which I thought would be a way to access another perspective without drugs....but I found it very uncomfortable and boring. We stayed up half the night, lightly sleeping on the floor. I got a 3-day migraine...and that was all.
One of the organisors alluded that I had expectations and money must be an issue for me....!!!!
So, deeply disappointed.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

Gift Horse: I am in no position to give advice to anyone ... but it is my God Given Right to butt in and give anyone advice whenever I feel like making a horse's ass of myself. So, here goes...

Everything you need to know is inside you. The entire universe resides in your cells. The only teacher you need to see this is one who can show you how to get to that place of understanding. That might be Don Whomever... It might be a shaman with rattle and drum (and that does work)... It might be a sacred mushroom... or it might just be a sofa on a soft afternoon, when it is 'TIME'. The answer is in you, and it is just a matter of letting it rise to the surface.

Now, having said that, let me say this: it will come to you the way it comes to YOU. Don't try to mirror someone else's experience because you can't live their experience... you can only live yours.

And once you find it, that real 'self'... Feed It!! Meditate on it, revel in it, immerse your 'self' in your 'self', because everything that was wrong before will try to take everything you have discovered away from you. Of course, nothing can take it away, but the crap of living in this world can cover it back up again. Just relax and allow yourself to discover your 'self'. It's really wonderful.

[Gift Horse]

Hey, horse's ass-- horse's mouth---
they are both part of a horse!

I appreciate your kind words.

I think some of us are more prone to seeking outside our selves than others. Take me, for instance, I have a basic understanding that the truth, the wisdom is in all of my cells.
That in the past, meditating, chanting or riding my horse have secured a lovely sense of self.
But then there is most of the time; my children with health issues and special needs, severe migraines for days at a time, my estranged husband is a progressed alcoholic.....then I sometimes feel over-whelmed and full of despair and I reach out to others, I reach out to the universe and I say, "Help!"

Maybe others are luckier and can find that inner self easier than others....?

[daniel]

Dr Tzu.

Enjoying your posts. My favorite Dylan quote: "Show me somebody who is not a parasite and I will go out and say a prayer for them."

I have a question for you (for anyone, really): Okay sure, "the universe is inside you," true enough. However, to really actualize it, does one need to take some kind of action in the world, or is it enough to lie on the couch and feel the oneness? And if so, what kind of action is required?

I like the Gurdjieff perspective. that if you want to make progress, you have to make sacrifices. He also says that the first thing you have to sacrifice is your suffering.

[gone]

Originally posted by daniel:
or is it enough to lie on the couch and feel the oneness?This reminds me a little of Luther’s “by faith alone” Justification. And have you ever seen a sexy Protestant? Bring on the Jesuit Action!

[Gift Horse]

Daniel,

I am all for sacrificing my suffering if that means ending it....?

Any suggestions?

I have a sneaking suspicion that privately experiencing the Oneness with no action is not enough.

That somehow, expressing it and sharing it, is required. Hence the body and the physical universe.

[jezebelle]

Its very easy to get trapped by responsiblities, that force you behave in robotic ways, but things must be gotten done. There is no way out of it, especially with children and spouses (with or without them) You happen to be the one who has to do it. Career too, whatever.

Yet you can stretch time by taking time.

Do one thing that really uplifts you. (once a week, or once a day) Only you know, what it is. That's the rule I think, you make the effort to be true to your quest, first, and the universe will rush in to help you. The fun of it will lead you right, enough.

Like you said, you have it inside. It'll be there for you.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

This is for both Daniel's question and Gift Horse's speculation:

If, after you experience "The universe is inside you" you will eventually have to get up and use the toilet. That is actualizing it. You will eventually have to go to the store to get groceries. That is actualizing it. You will have to turn to your family and speak to them of dinner, bills, ills, and dirty diapers. That is actualizing the experience. Life itself pretty much actualizes the Universe all the time. Sitting in a monastery is a great way to feel good all the time, but it has very little to do with life, and we are here to live, aren't we?

We all know the old Zen saying (here, tortured and mangled by my own views)"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water; during enlightenment, all is what it is; after enlightenment, get indoor plumbing and central heating and LIGHTEN UP!!!" Being "Holy" for the sake of being looked up to is crap, as we all know. The only way to avoid that 'crap trap' is to go about our business... but this time with our eyes open.

I get stoned out of my mind every day by just walking around and paying attention. Have you ever just been on a straight groove and happened to look down to see a little kid looking at you, and you both know? Or have you ever watched a grinning dog lope on by, and you catch each other's eye? That is the Universe saying "Hi!" to itself.

Yes, life is a pile of crap sometimes, and yes, there are those who don't do well in it, and yes, there are times when you think, "Okay, checkout time!", but it doesn't have to be that way. Everything we need to LIVE is inside us. Everything that we ever wanted to love is in there. Life is very good.

Sorry... I get a little carried away sometimes. But as you can see, I believe in engaging Life to the best of our ability and not to crawl inside our navels. If we do that, well, Hell... actualization will happen.

Maybe I've sacrificed my suffering...?

Naw!!! I've just turned it inside out!!

Sam

[daniel]

Dr. Tzu,

So there are no responsibilities that come to one as part of the spiritual path? Just feeling stoned by observing life is enough?

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

No, there are responsiblities, but they have to arise organically out of the experience, rather than be put on the believer as a creed or a dogma. If the experience is true, it will point the way to the responsibility of the individual. If the experience is something else, then it will point a different direction.

There are many people out there, preaching the word to the sinful, passing stiff laws against the ungodly, and even blowing themselves up to destroy "EVIL", because they are 'fullfilling their responsibility'. I think we really, really, really, have to take a long look at what our responsibility is before we jump in and do it.

In the meantime, though, it's probably okay to enjoy life. It's a good place to start.

Sam.

[daniel]

I was just looking at this new Lacanian book about how the concept of "enjoyment" has become an obsession of American culture. You go to some coffee shop to get some hideous lump of food, and the waitress orders you to "Enjoy!" while she slaps it down.

Anyway, this author feels that the more conscripted this concept of "enjoyment" has become in this culture, the less anyone seems to be enjoying anything.

I admit to feeling like a grump or curmudgeon these days... I walk around NYC and i literally don't understand what people are doing - they are so deep in trance, so possessed and incapacitated. Are you still a prisoner if you have forgotten you are in jail? Are you more of a prisoner in that case?

I wonder if they are insane or if I am.

I don't know that "enjoying" is really possible at this point in time, as our mindless culture devours the planet. What most people mean by "enjoying" is temporary states of oblivion from their anxieties and hostilities. The only true pleasure I seem to find at this point is through making efforts to "turn the wheel" in the other direction.

As for "spirituality," I think the word has become another trap.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

As I said... Indoor plumbing, central heating, Lighten Up!

Sam

[daniel]

can you be light and heavy at the same time?

[willoweyes]

I fight with hopelessness. It's touch and go sometimes. I keep putting one foot in front of the other, sometimes by tricking myself.

The stories of all people tend to demonstrate that life is a struggle, that we must "choose life," that we must work for what is right, that we must take responsibility for our actions, and that our actions do have consequences. The ending is not assured.

[willoweyes]

I fight with hopelessness. It's touch and go sometimes. I keep putting one foot in front of the other, sometimes by tricking myself.

The stories of all people tend to demonstrate that life is a struggle, that we must "choose life," that we must work for what is right, that we must take responsibility for our actions, and that our actions do have consequences. The ending is not assured.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

Yes! You can be light and heavy at the same time. The warrior who laughs in battle and refuses to give up is usually the one who will win. Those who laugh in the face of adversity have got a huge leg up on those who don't. To carry the analogy even further... Mohammed Ali beat the crap out of Sonny Liston because he was a DANCER!!

Sorry, I get a little carried away with the 'life as a battle' scenarios. I agree that life is this huge swamp that we feel like we have to slog through sometimes, but we can do our job better if we walk on the water, above the crap. And, as I've alluded to in a private message to Daniel, I've seen enough crap in this world to be allowed to wander about in the swamp once in a while... but then I would just be down there in the mud that I was dragged out of. Been there, hated it, I'd rather laugh and do what I can to get everyone else laughing as well.

We do have a battle going on, but I would rather laugh at the enemies of life than despair of their power. Besides, with Dubya in the White House, our enemies have given us a lot to laugh about.

Sorry... Life is waaaaaay to serious to take it seriously. If we can't laugh and beat our way through it, we may as well just slit our own throats and get it over with.

Sam

[Agent Smith]

yep walking around the city is a deffinite trip. it's like watching people poison themselves, grimace, twitch, and convulse, and then let out a contented sigh...

...'spirituality' is deffinitly being aggressively marketed these days. another pre-fab cognitive cul-de-sac. I cringe whenever I go to a yoga studio, or talk to a 'buddhist', 'taoist', or wiccan. (not that talking to me can be anybetter, I am sure.)

...hmmmm. I think it's very improtant to be dead serious about play, and fun. being 'light, and heavy' at the same time. I am absolutely ruthless about bringing my vision to the world, which is deffintly more 'bugs bunny' than 'fredriech niechte' (or whatever I have no time to check spelling today... screw the english language anyway, just one more fetter...) HA! I will make you happy!!! For me being optimistic, and 'light' inspite of the horror is part of how I fight it. like I said, they've got the guns, we've got the imagination...

Enjoy!

[Agent Smith]

ah, forgot to mention that I think one of the BIG traps that we can throw ourselves into is to think of things in terms of the 'Life is suffering' meme. We know that whatever we think about increasingly manifests for us, so if we dwell in the sh!t too long... we get to see WAY more of it than we are going to be comfortable.

I fully acknowlege that I have suffered, and that others are suffering right now... I also acknowlege that I have the ability to magnify my fears into reality, or not.Up against the wall!!! Laugh motherfucker!!!!

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

Spoken like a true Marxist...

A Groucho Marxist...

Sam

[gone]

With all this valuable wisdom abound one wonders why we’re in such a mess. Perhaps the popular book shouldn’t have been The Tao of Pooh, but the Tao of Crap.

Let’s all just have a laugh. Whatever.

[gone]

Basically I get pretty tired hearing people banging on about how we SHOULD feel about and react to things when most of us know full well this has nothing to do with how we ACTUALLY feel about things.

Good mental and spiritual health is not like some school French vocabulary test where the more words you know the better your score. Knowing the Gita, Thelema or Don Juan’s buddy Dave means NOTHING in terms of practicality. Too many people are making this mistake. There is an abyss between this kind of knowledge and that which is actually USEFUL TODAY FOR YOU AND ME.

People harp on about the narcosis that is Modern Life. Sure, there are plenty who are unconscious and need waking from their sleep. There are also just as many who are half awake and think they’ve got it sussed. Confucious say ‘You In Dream Too.’

Every smart person I know is depressed to a greater or lesser degree. This does not mean every depressed person is smart, but that simply attempting to laugh is, well, a joke. No doubt George Bush hands out ‘Always Look on the Bright Side of Life’ buttons to people he meets. Trap beyond trap.

[Agent Smith]

so there's this 'anarchist' bookstore I walk into every once in a while, and I always ask them "So what's the good news?" or the like, and they always look at me as if I am out of my mind. (lol, sorry you made me think of 'marxists', no wonder their 'revolutions' always fail... they're just no fun!!! bob black, and his 'abolish' work ethic is where it's at IMO)

I think we need to be focusing on increasing what's great in the world instead of running around going 'Augh! not another ______!' LOL, I just did that on the Hati thread ealier today.
that guy from the bioneers conference said last year that we have the know how to reduce our environmental foot print by 90%!!!! we CAN do it. it's not a question of whether it's possible or not, he said the main obstecles are political and economic... so close...so close.

well, I have faith in the human race. We are by far the most ruthless beings ever to populate the Earth, and I intend to exploit that!!

[gone]

When I went into town last week to do the shopping I drove past two figures on the corner of an intersection – Angels of Death, black hooded robes and scythes, motionless, oblivious to the traffic. This is a university town, so I assumed it was some kind of performance art, but it leaves you thinking.

On the tv last night was an advert for a breakfast cereal. A woman jogs through the park and the heads of everyone she sees are turning into big peaches. She laughs and carries on running.

In a recent book group we read Alice In Wonderland. In the dramatisations of this story we are used to seeing Alice a bit weirded by her surroundings. She’s actually quite indifferent, ‘Oh well, getting bigger… now smaller, whatever.’

Make of that what you will.

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

I am also an actor. As in "live theatre". Good theatre consists of characters interacting with each other. Bad theatre consists of people talking to the audience, or 'at' the other characters, not with them.

Smith, I like your ideas, and I like your attitude. You have, obviously, stepped away from the Master Program and are doing a little thinking for yourself. You are a breath of fresh air. Rock and Roll, Dude...

Gelfer, I like what you're saying, too. But don't you think that the smallest twigs, stuck in the river's bottom, are affected by the flow? A friend of mine once pointed out, after a heavy wind storm, that the trees that refused to bend were blown down, while the supple ones endured the wind, and then went on with what they were doing (Which was responding to their inner programming to grow) after the storm passed. Perhaps those Grim Reapers were supple individuals, following their own inner programming.

And you do have a good point. I hereby refuse to tell anyone what they 'should' be doing. That is the trap of all traps... that whole "Mote in your eye, tree trunk in mine". Thank you.

Now, what everybody should do is...

Sam

[Dr. Samuel Tzu]

One last thing. Our acts don't make us righteous, but that which is in us makes us act. I gave money to a panhandler today and was able to see something that I had always known: there is no merit in our acts on the karmic level. We don't 'earn' frequent giver points good for a free flight on Karma Airlines, flying us over areas that we would have to pass through. We go through what we need to go through to get to where we are going. I gave because I could give... that's all.

Then why "Good Works", like saving the rain forest or indigenous cultures? Why not? Wouldn't you like to have someone save your way of life? Then, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. There's no other reason for doing anything for anyone, and anyone who tries to tell you different is trying to sell you something, and 'selling' means that they are trying to take something from you.

Give just to give. Work to save the Rain Forest just to save the rain forest. Learn to heal just to heal, not to get points for it. In the end, all of the point getting is stripped away and our real motives are revealed.

Sorry for the diatribe. It was just a moment of clarity and freedom today. It's great...

[El Eternauta]

I admit to feeling like a grump or curmudgeon these days... I walk around NYC and i literally don't understand what people are doing - they are so deep in trance, so possessed and incapacitated. Are you still a prisoner if you have forgotten you are in jail? Are you more of a prisoner in that case? I understand your sentiment Daniel I use to live in the city , and it could definitely bring you down.
One day I had a realization that I did not want to live like that any more, so I left, bought me a log cabin and 30 acres and has been the best decision in my life, that was my option.
You ask if it is possible to enjoy life in this time period, I will answer to you yes, as much as in any period.
But you have to make the decision to jump to the other side, don’t be trapped in the dream (Iraq, rainforest, economy bla, bla, bla) all that will mean nothing in 100 years, don’t worry if humanity will survive or not is not up to you, do the best for your self in that way you truly do good to others.
I am having a blast (by my own creation) and I am telling you is possible, the only problem is that not many people wana join the party. Seams that people loves suffering, I don’t get it
Dr. Samuel Tzu, you encompass my sentiment .

[undefined]

el eternauta,
first, daniel didn't ask if it's possible to enjoy life. he said he didn't know if it is possible to enjoy life, and i don't think he was speaking for everyone since, lets face it, there's plenty of enjoyment going on today. i think he was speaking for himself and people like him who have engaged the painfull task of willfully evolving gills. to endeavor to enjoy is shallow, unfullfilling, and to miss the point completly. that is, of course, unless you "believe" in the american dream where hedonism is the dominate timple of worship. to enjoy or not to enjoy is like to breath or not to breath, a question for dumb (unaware) people.

pain is a becon, the lorax of the subconscious (superconscious) self. the grabber of your attention, so that you will know where to focus your energy, enough energy to surge a tsunami of solvent to transform the negitive (problem) to negitive/positive (solution). like a footprint in the sand becons the wave to wash it away. therefore it could be said that pain is the mind's way of striving to achieve ballance , a ballanced solution of good and bad in pure energy. the point at which good and bad cease to exist at all, except as tools of the human immagination.

perhaps pain is the oppisite of enjoyment, but like pain, enjoyment is also a becon, a communication between awareness and subconscious. but to emphasize enjoyment would be like (enter allan watts) humping the signpost insted of following the path (so i guess the persuit of happiness is the art of signpost humping). enjoyment is not an end, but a consequence of getting it . do you get it? (everyone roll up for the magical mystery tour, step right this way) that moment when you feel yourself as a speck of divine intelligence, as a godhead, or a testebud on the tongue of the universe, lost, spining in an ocean of caos, this could produce real enjoyment, as opposed to the signpost humping that we are normally engaged in.

kneel before the alter of artificiallaty.
we're not getting it, and it is passing us by, moment to moment. the oppertinity of an eternity might be what is at stake here.

my question to you: what is the price on the head of total freedom?

[El Eternauta]

“first, daniel didn't ask if it's possible to enjoy life. he said he didn't know if it is possible to enjoy life.”

Friend, I know he did not ask, but I felt, (and maybe I am wrong, I had only good intencions for you Daniel), that the world around him was bring him down, I felt what is call empathy for some one else, cuz I been there, all I was trying to tell him is relax there is no rush the world is how it has to be and all this things that are happening are just temporal.

“I don't think he was speaking for everyone since, lets face it, there's plenty of enjoyment going on today. i think he was speaking for himself and people like him who have engaged the painfull task of willfully evolving gills. to endeavor to enjoy is shallow, unfullfilling, and to miss the point completely”

I don’t Know if he was speaking for every one or not but seams you are speaking for him now.
If you think the path to GOD is a path of suffering, well good for you there are plenty of whips in the market.
I choose the path of “enjoying”, I thank the creator for every thing in my life and am constantly reminded of his amazing creation, and what’s wrong in having a good time, if you are having a good time so is God, he lives thru us. smile.gif

“pain is a becon, the lorax of the subconscious (superconscious) self. the grabber of your attention, so that you will know where to focus your energy, enough energy to surge a tsunami of solvent to transform the negitive (problem) to negitive/positive (solution). like a footprint in the sand becons the wave to wash it away. therefore it could be said that pain is the mind's way of striving to achieve ballance , a ballanced solution of good and bad in pure energy. the point at which good and bad cease to exist at all, except as tools of the human immagination.

perhaps pain is the oppisite of enjoyment, but like pain, enjoyment is also a becon, a communication between awareness and subconscious. but to emphasize enjoyment would be like (enter allan watts) humping the signpost insted of following the path (so i guess the persuit of happiness is the art of signpost humping”

You lost me at pain, me no comprende I can’t fit so many thing in my head, I am actually trying to get rid of a lot of old theory’s and live more, I am very simple minded man/boy.

“enjoyment is not an end, but a consequence of getting it . do you get it?”

Not only I get it I am living it.
I can see you have not reach that stage yet, just simmer down now and you will.

“(everyone roll up for the magical mystery tour, step right this way) that moment when you feel yourself as a speck of divine intelligence, as a godhead, or a testebud on the tongue of the universe, lost, spining in an ocean of caos, this could produce real enjoyment, as opposed to the signpost humping that we are normally engaged in.

kneel before the alter of artificiallaty.
we're not getting it, and it is passing us by, moment to moment. the oppertinity of an eternity might be what is at stake here.”

Oooookkkkk……relax budy put down those shrooms.

“my question to you: what is the price on the head of total freedom?”

Whos’s head are we talking here?

[undefined]

"i found that the chief difficulty for most people was to realize that they had really heard 'new things': that is, things that they had never heard before. they kept translating what they heard into their habitual language. they had ceased to hope and believe that there might be anything new."--- Ouspensky

"in the end, nobody hears more out of things, including books, than he knows already. for that to which one lacks access from experience, one has no ears. let us imagine an extreme case: that a book speaks of all sorts of experiences which lie utterly beyond any posibility of frequent or even rare, experiences--- that it represents the first language for a new sequence of experiences. in that case, simply nothing is heard; and people have the acoustic illusion that where nothing is heard there is nothing."----nietzche

i'll be back later

[undefined]

the point that i was getting at on the 13th was that some people can't just simply decide to enjoy themselves and voila, happy place. i'm not trying to say that that would be the wrong way, but i won't give props either.

God Lives Underwater

weastern civilization skims the surface of existance, like riding on a racing boat over the surface of a vast ocean. you may have heard some refer to our cultural worldview as a kind of flatland (particularly ken wilber). simply put, our understanding of the universe, the planet, our environment and our place in it, and especially ourselves and our fellow human beings, has a great 'span', but is severly lacking in depth. we are experts in the physicallity of things, that aspect of life that is accessable to the five senses. science has covered every corner of the physical world, breaking it down, and explaining how it works, poking it with the scientific stick and recording the results, and anything that could not be poked with a stick was left to the theologians, who played wizard of oz with our minds (pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!).
ultimately science failed to answer all of our questions and we realized that we could not rely on science to explain our deepest mysteries to us. the ball was back in our court. the key to everyones box is within the deapths of each persons individual consiousness, and the clusterfuck that we've transformed our world into, and all the silly rabble that passes for the serious business of the world serves vehemently to crush and sever our connection with the heart and soul of human existance. to put it another way, that which can be touched, smelled, seen, or heard is more or less understood, but this is only a very small part of the story, for our fear of the unknown has resulted, over human history, in the overwelming subjugation of the sensitivity to human depth.

everyone experiences this differently. most people either chose to ignore it or are sucessfully oblivious, or they just cant figure out why they can't "enjoy" life. if i were writing a book i would go further into the implications of what i am saying, but essentialy, what i am discussing is the source of that which we call evil. everything that is percieved, must also be experienced, lest it become misunderstood, the persistant unknown, darkness, evil.

i have more to say than time to say it.

to be continued

[jezebelle]

All really good points that can't be disputed. But you got to admit that it must really suck (sometimes) being in the Big Apple.
Renewal isn't as easy. I can take a trail in nature to get reconnected, easier that catching a uptown bus.

[undefined]

"what do you get for pretending the danger's not real?

meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.

what a supprise!

a look of terminal shock in your eyes.

now things are really what they seem!

no, this is no bad dream." ----roger waters

[undefined]

"Where we're going is how we get there.
If where we're going is how we get there, we are already where we're going."
-------disciplineglobalmobile.com

do you want to end up where you are?

human sensory organs are not reliable as "truth detectors". perceptions must be constantly reevaluated, as human understanding is constantly evolving. the age of information is upon us, and we are susceptable to the myriad of distortions of the human mind. we are very very susceptible, as history has shown. we are jaded to severe degrees, and our minds are like internet connections without popup protection; actually there worse than that.

"harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away

only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air

you better watch out

there may be dogs about

i've looked over jordan and i've seen

things are not what they seem"------roger waters

atrosity is relative. in fact, any abstract human notion is relative; love, freedom, pain, joy, hate, usefullness, meaning, value, etc. we do not live in a realm of only numerous possibilities of existance. the possibilities are, quite possibly, infinite. if a wild animal were born in captivity, would it know that its purpose of being had been delieted from its existance? modern day activities like metro transit, and mindless t.v. programing might seam "reatively" harmless ("evrybodys doing it, so it can't be that bad, right?") to someone who has been acclimated gradually throughout their lifetime. but what if a native american were taken right out of 1492 and set up with a modern day metro (or suberban for that matter) life; job, buspass, apartment, t.v., commercials, overpopulation, polution, fashion, compromise, conformity, assimilation, submition, christmas music, .......pop radio (pardon me while i overdose on something).

feel free to speculate on what the outcome might be of that sinario. i'd bet that someone, so intuned with nature and tribal community, would react with violent rejection after just one evening, na, twenty minuits of primetime t.v.; horrific bordom, fear, and sadness would accompany a longing to connect with someone in a real, nonsuperficial way. anger, rage, and loneliness would slam him against the rocks of ignorance as he flowed downstream in a river of cheese to an ocean infested with neurosis ond confusion.

this state of being might sound slightly familier to some people. daniel wrote, "I admit to feeling like a grump or curmudgeon these days... I walk around NYC and i literally don't understand what people are doing - they are so deep in trance, so possessed and incapacitated. Are you still a prisoner if you have forgotten you are in jail? Are you more of a prisoner in that case?
I wonder if they are insane or if I am."

i think that there is no "i" as opposed to "they". there is only "we". and we are not of "sound mind". i assure you, "we", are collectively insane.

"the ocean is a desert with its life underground and a perfect disguise above

under the city, lies a heart made of ground, but the humans will give no love"

[crackedpaint]

I got my first Carlos Castaneda book ‘The second ring of power’ from the library this week after reading this section of the forum. Its sort of funny that its argued about and mayby that was the authors desire (be it true or fiction), - to create a whirlwind around the work? Ive only on p50 and to me it feels like pure fiction. A good question here though is : does it swing, does it live?
For me that’s always the question in art, take Doestoyeskys Crime & Punishment – I think if one was to travel back in time to 1860’s St Petersberg
those scenes and characters would now be there and perhaps more so than the actual.

[willoweyes]

Undefined: My feeling is that the IP (indigenous person) could take our culture for awhile--might in fact find it entrancing. However, when the IP came to realize he was trapped in this strange dream, he might begin to hyperventilate.

My problem is the No Exit aspect of our society--I fear this spiritless march will continue to the grave. and also this cruel twist--we could, truly, end our association with the Greatest Tit on Earth--only, the pampering would end.

Have you read Into the Wild by Jon Krakhower?

[undefined]

cracked paint: unfortunatelly, i have not read crime and punishment, but i must say that starting castaneda at the second ring would be like castaneda starting his apprenticeship at that point. the first four books are full of beauty and wisdom. don't bother getting caught up in the arguement. if castanedas works had been presented as pure fiction, then his story would have been taken less seriously, as wild fantasy, or total bullshit, as it is taken for so often already. carlos put his work out to break open some heads, and i have found nothing yet to discount don juans teachings, but i have found correlations, and if reality is really stranger than fiction; well these books seem more strange than false. it all just makes allot of sense to me. each individual will get something different out of it. to take it for what you think it's worth, and let other people do the same, is how we do justice to literature.

willoweyes: i have not read jon krakhower.

"spiritless march",...yes, that what were engaged in. but all i want to do is lay down in the grass and stare at the sky. i'm tired of marching. i think i want to kill the capitalists skumfucks that are running the show.

[Buzz]

I recently re-read the fourth book Tales of Power published in 1974, then followed up by reading the 5th book, The Second Ring of Power published 3 years later in 1977. Undefined pointed out that the first 4 books are full of "beauty and wisdom", and I have to agree. There is a noted difference in the character of Don Juan in the first four books and the 5th. In the first four books Don Juan is an austere moral magic man. Then in the 5th he seems to be portrayed as an evil dark sinister sorcerer bent on having Carlos killed and having witch's steal power from their own children. Even the earlier encounter with La Catalina in the early books is now perceived by CC (in the 5th book) as an attempt to kill him. It seems more than likely that her purpose was to scare CC onto the path that Don Juan was trying to get him to commit to than to kill him.

I'm going to propose that Carlos had, by 1977, become a bit embittered by his apprenticeship ending abruptly in '73, '74. For in the fourth book, jumping off the cliff seems to have been invented suddenly. In later books CC writes as if he was being prepared for it all along. He may have tried to continue an apprenticeship with someone more like the typical brujo that one would encounter down Mexico way, thus the introduction of the darkness of The Second Ring of Power. From time to time in the later books the Don Juan of old seemed to re-emerge in some of the more enlightening moments.

But who really knows. Even fiction can have power and hit on truth. I watched an interview with Peter Jackson the other day. He was discussing Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings trilogy. He also spoke of the fictional movie King Kong. Anyway, he made an statement something to the effect that fiction can be full of "emotional truth".

[someone]

for a good time:

Nagualism: A Study in Native American Folk-Lore and History
by Daniel G. Brinton, Professor of American Archaeology and Linguistics in the University of Pennsylvania

1894

http://www.cwru.edu/UL/preserve/stack/Nagualism.html

It will never be a best seller. Because it's free.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

Anyway, Castenada's technique is to sit in the library, especially a university library, and absorb the feast that's available, then hash the ideas into a blended idiosyncratic form and sell it back to the less educated. He must have read a lot in his PhD program. Many of his ideas have precursors, maybe all of them. Basically, he's a fake, and if he's interesting, it's because he borrowed interesting ideas and can make up a good story.

So why not try to find the real stuff?

[sidecross]

It does amaze me that 8 pages on this topic are worthy of such attention. The pages are a tour de force for the hold dualism has on our mind.

If Don Juan is a phantom, he is welcome here.

[Buzz]

I have to believe in the transformed man/woman. If this hell world is all there is then, what is the point?

I welcome Juan and Genaro, Babaji & Mataji, and the elves of Lothloran. But in truth, I think it is more a case of them welcoming us.

[undefined]

"please

open your eyes

try

to re-a-lize

i

found out today

we're going wrong

we're going wrong

please

open your mind

see

what you can find

i

found out today

we're going wrong

we're going wrong'-----cream

[undefined]

"they saw that the universe was a universe of intent, and intent for them was the equivilent of intelligence. the universe, therefore, was, for them, a universe of supreme intelligence. there conclusion, which became part of their cognitive world, was that vibratory energy, aware of itself, was intelligent in the extreme. they saw that the mass of intent in the cosmos was responsable for all the possible mutations, all the possible variations which happened in the universe, not because of arbitrary, blind circumstances, but because of the intending done by the vibratory energy, at the level of the flux of energy itself."------from the authors comentaries, the teachings of don juan, 30th aniversary edition

recently, while watching the science channel, i found out that astronauts in space sometimes see streaks, or flashes of light when their eyes are closed. it was determined that these flashes were actually particles, or photons, or something like that, from some distant energy source, possibily remnants of the big bang. with an electron microscope could be seen the protrusions left by these particles in the walls if astronauts helmets. scientist say that these may be responsable for mutations on earth as they are capable of shattering the molecular structure of DNA, altering the resultant organism and creating another product on the evolutionary supermarket shelf from which life can "naturally select".

if there were some kind intelligence, or intent behind these seemingly random bullets from space, that might account for a problem scientists have in evolutionary theory. natural selection does not explain the mutation of an organism but only the selection of the favorable mutations. but calculations show that we haven't had time to evolve into what we have become, accidently, by selecting the best of purly random fuckups, like monkys on typewriters might eventually come up with Hamlet. therefore it could be said that some intending would be required to provide a species with favorable mutations in a timely manner.

if this were so, it'd be necessary to mention that one need not wonder who or what is "out there" fireing bullets at our chromosomes. the origin of these cosmic drive-bys is inconsequential to there effect since their trajectory is constantly altered by magnetic fields as they fly through space. this means that each new domain that they incur on their journey would provide its own (magnetic) street signs, pointing the way to other street signs as they spin, flip, and swing their way to an evolutionary conclusion, directed by the intent of everything they encountered along the way.

[sidecross]

The question of intent has been expressed in the Anthropic Principle as well. Of course science would have two versions of such a notion; they are the weak and the strong.

The concept of intent springs from the human mind, and it may be an orphan.

[undefined]

"Of course, there might be other forms of intelligent life, not dreamed of even by writers of science fiction, that did not require the light of a star like the Sun or the heavier chemical elements that are made in stars and are flung back into space when the stars explode."---------- stephen hawking

[egret]

hey sidecross, could you expand a bit on what you mean by 'the weak and the strong'? thanx

[sidecross]

The weak and the strong forms of the anthropic principle were explained to me by Stephen Hawking's book A Brief History of Time. I would recommend this source rather than my attempt of explanation.

The main point for my comment was on the concept of "intent" as a linguistic construct of the mind. Language may be out of reach to understand all there may be. It is this very fact that had led me to explore psychedelics.

[undefined]

sidecross,
please excuse my ignorance, as the anthropic principal is new to me. i have not yet reached that part of "a brief history of time". though i have read a bit of online information on the subject that was from a religious perspective, making their case that the anthropic principal proves the existance of god, and that most physicists simply refuse to admit the abvious.

this arguement opens such a can of worms for me that i'm not sure where to start.

i agree with you. intent is definately a concept, a linguistic construct of the mind. but so is love, hate, fear freedom, right, wrong, dog, house, mother, daughter, law, justice, evil, and of course, GOD . language is a linguistic construct of the mind. every word that has ever come out of anyones mouth was a linguistic construct of the mind, and everything that i just said or am about to say is conceptual. to think or speak is to conceptualize, to concieve. like the fertiliziation of an egg is a conception of an animal, the forming of any idea or thought is conceptualization.

language is severely limited as a means to knowledge. it is a tool of an evolved mind, it's purpose being to take what is there, that which exists, and reduce it to something that can be used, like a computer converts complex patterns of ones and zeros into graphic immages. you don't see the ones and zeros. what you see is the result of the conceptualization of computer language.

if a blind man and a rabbit are in a room and the blind man asks," what is there"; to say," it is a rabbit" might convey an idea, or a concept, of what is there but would not come anywhere near telling the man what is actually there. to tell him that; about the hair, organs, tissue, blood, cells, all the stuff that's in cells, all the stuff that makes up the stuff that's in cells, and all the stuff that makes up that stuff, would take volumes. not even to mention the non physical implications of the word "rabbit". and then, unfortunatelly, all of these volumes of information would be mearly a "linguistic construct of the mind" and would still not tell the whole truith about what is actually there. but that's ok, because shortly into the discription the blind man would interrupt you and say," hey, give me something i can use", at which point you would say,"ok, it's a rabbit". then the man would say,"oh, i would like to pet the rabbit" or,"i would like to eat the rabbit". being, in a linguistic nutshell.

one more thing to consider is that sensory organs also follow their own process of reduction. the mind is constantly converting that which IS, to that which it can use.

"it's all in your head", so to speak.

all this might seem like something that should "go without saying", but it doesn't. this is a paradox of human intelligence, and a major cause of irreconcilable differing between people of various religious and spiritual beliefs; that we do not realize that we don't really know what we're talking about. though our efforts are great, our understanding is feeble compaired to what there is to understand.

so, to get to the point, when speaking of that which is unspeakable, we must realize that we are limited by a linguistic construct which encompasses the whole realm of communication. to try to conceptualize existance is like trying to map the universe with binoculars. likewise, to believe in the concept of god, is like trying to reduce that which is (something so vast and inconceivable) to something that we can use, wrapped up in a neat little package, which is terribly limiting, and unworthy of human potentiality. if we are really inteligent, we will learn to look between the lines of human language and not take it so literally. to see concepts, not as final conclusions, but as road signs pointing to new fronteers.

[Charlie]

"Mountains are mountains; water is water; monks are monks; laymen are laymen. Mountains, rivers, and the great earth; the sun, the moon, and the stars—none of them is outside your mind... The green mountains that everywhere meet your gaze — this void world — are so clear and bright that no single hairsbreadth is left there for your cognitive understanding."

--Zen Master Huangbo

And now a comment that's way the hell out there: I think that in the future, man will start to communicate in a more telepathic manner, which will include transmitting feelings and direct experience, rather than just words that describe those experiences, and hence, will convey more of the intrinsic "rabbitness" to that blind man.

[ March 31, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[Buzz]

I'm going to go back to Castenada to try and explain something here.
Our reason, words, and descriptions are connected to the tonal, our (as average human animals) reality.
Intent is connected to will, the center or grounding point of spirit/nagual. If someone has not experienced the nagual, there is really no way to explain it. Perhaps all one can really do with words is relax the soul/tonal into letting the spirit come out to play. Most people wait until death for this to happen, and then it is too late for the integration to happen. The integration of spirit and soul or tonal and nagual, which creates the radiant body. If one develops a radiant body, life beyond death is infinite, life is more. If one doesn't develop it, life is less than it is here. And we will be reborn to try it again.

[egret]

all is conceptual; all is linguistic; all is in the mind; but ‘rabbit’ is not problematic. ‘intent’ is.
like ‘free will’ (containing notions of ‘freedom’ and ‘will’) ‘determinism’, etc. these are terms passed down from god knows where, manhandled by so many distorting ideologies., carrying so much ridiculous baggage, are so full of insane agendas, they ought to just be thrown out the window. we really really need to start over with stuff like this. its not that ‘intent’ or ‘free will’ or ‘determinism’ are exactly wrong – its that they just don’t fit what happens in our heads and in the world. we need new and better categories to think in. as long as we keep thinking in old terms, we’ll keep thinking like everyone else. this is not linguistic psychobabble or gobbledygook: its basic concepts, more than basic values, that give rise to a culture and a civilization. an example: the notion of intent and free will lies behind our whole so-called criminal “justice” system, which sends someone to jail for years for stealing something to support his impoverished family. left and right buy blindly into systems set up by folks with really questionable mind-sets and agendas. gotta dig deeper if we want anything other than fashion to change. can’t just shuffle passed down concepts, need to root them out. at least give ‘em a good looking over. no, better just toss them out and start over.

[undefined]

in response to charlie's last comment ;
before we get too excited about the future of communication, we might want to learn, in deapth, what communication is and how we might experience it more fully today, as it will likely be of our own doing that we discover higher states of awareness. the prospect of loosing the limits of verbal language for more boundless forms of communication might seem distant, though i think we could begin to experience communication on a deeper level if we could learn to just shut the fuck up (or as don juan would say, "quiet the mind") and, perhaps, to quit imposing ourselves on "reality", so as to let a little reality begin to seep through the dam, and infect our stream of consiousness once again.

our thoughts have been fed to us.

i would like to quote a band named tool.
Schism

"I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smoldering. Fundamental differing.
Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication
The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
We cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication.

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down
No fault, none to blame it doesn't mean I don't desire to
Point the finger, blame the other, watch the temple topple over.
To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication

The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance.

There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away.
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting
I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.

Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any
Sense of compassion
Between supposed lovers/brothers"

[undefined]

sidecross,
if you were to go into surgerey, and a team of highly educated people (doctors, chemists, etc.) were locked in a dark room on the other side of a hospital, with nothing but a viewing screen, on which they were shown images, taken by finely tuned insrtuments, of various sections of the inside of your body, and the immages were at a width of, say, two billionths of a millimeter; oh, and they didn't know what they were looking at; would you think that it would be possible for them discover your intelect?

i must say that i think our conversation is on a good track here. there seems to be an agreement that language is way too limited to be relied upon as much as humans do. it is just not a sharp enough tool to dig the depths of consiousness, though it has served us quite well in maping the physical world. we're like oil drillers on a bed of hard rock, and we forgot our diamond bit.

to quote our friend buzz, "If someone has not experienced the nagual, there is really no way to explain it." and like i've said before, god lives underwater, and our 50 foot cigar boat, with twin 454 cc big block engines might skim the surface quite well, but it won't take us into the depths. we will need to break out our yellow submarine for that. or, at least slow the speed boat down so some of us can take a dip. we can "talk" about it til we're blue in the face, but talking will not take us "there".

of course "there" is not where we belong. at least not yet. and we must keep talking about what we think. therefore if "intent" is the best way we can express a thought, so be it, as long as we can read between the lines and understand it's worth, which is not so great. and this inherent lack of worth is why we need to slow down the runaway train, and stop being so self righteous in our motivations. our outdated navigatoinal systems have led us astray, and we need to take a dip, to, "relax the soul/tonal into letting the spirit come out to play", as buzz has stated. and now to quote alan wats, "for there is a growing apprehension that existance is a rat race in a trap: living organisms, including people, are merely tubes which put things in at one end and let them out the other, which both keeps them doing it and in the long run wears them out. so to keep the farce going, tubes fing ways of making new tubes, which also put things in at one end and let them out the other. at the input end they even develop ganglia of nerves called brains, with eyes and ears so that they can more easily scrounge around for things to swollow. and when they get enough to eat, they use up their surplus energy by wiggling in complicated patterns, making all sorts of noises by blowing air in and out of their input hole, and gathering together in groups to fight with other groups. in time, the tubes grow such an abundance of attached appliances that they are hardly recognizable as mere tubes, and they manage to do this in a staggering variety of forms. there is a vague rule not to eat tubes of your own form, but in general there is serious competition as to who is going to be the top type of tube. all this seems marvelously futile, and yet, when you begin to think about it, it begins to be more marvelous than futile. indeed, it seems extremely odd."

[skulkey]

[mucho late to discursion, feels compelled to add, in no particular order]

coyote sez "don't listen to coyote, he is a liar, a fool, and crazy as fuck from all the peyote buttons."

words are as the crest of a wave.

remember what special agent Dale Cooper tells sherrif Harry S. Trumnan... "...once a day, every day, give yourself a little present..."

[undefined]

quote from jezebelle from page 6,

"Its very easy to get trapped by responsiblities, that force you behave in robotic ways, but things must be gotten done. There is no way out of it, especially with children and spouses (with or without them) You happen to be the one who has to do it. Career too, whatever.
Yet you can stretch time by taking time.
Do one thing that really uplifts you. (once a week, or once a day) Only you know, what it is. That's the rule I think, you make the effort to be true to your quest, first, and the universe will rush in to help you. The fun of it will lead you right, enough.
Like you said, you have it inside. It'll be there for you."

simple, sober, inspirational, thanks jezebelle

[jezebelle]

Why thank you undefined. You just made my day.
Speaking of such things, I just went through an iniation of the unwanted type, food poisoning or a virses. Believe me it doesn't matter.
During my 3 days and 3 nights, of not being able to hold down even stale ginger-ale or tiny sips of water, I was in pain and in swoons as I drifted in and out.
Trying not to be a total boob, I recognized that I had to look at some dark stuff buried in me that I had avoided . . . by being ever so viligent and successful in my daily life. ha ha
Not surprisingly deep in my belly, and deep into a large ornate cavern (in the earth) I went. Besides recognizing that I had been here before, I sought to identify the source of my current fears that were fexing me. In a rise of pain I floated to a ceiling and saw my fear, just for an instant. At the same time I saw medalians, and thought, I've got to tell halfglass! (To ask a truely halfglass question, were the medalians indictive of my fears? I don't know.)
But I do know that before I could come back, I had to surrender some of my bullshit, and it ain't that easy, trust me. I called on every sacred force I could think of, and here I am just alive, humbled by the experience.
Still coming back, none of my worries seem important, just fears. I enjoy seeing just the simplist things, and breathing is pretty cool too.

[Humming]

Daniel: "I have a question for you (for anyone, really): Okay sure, "the universe is inside you," true enough. However, to really actualize it, does one need to take some kind of action in the world, or is it enough to lie on the couch and feel the oneness? And if so, what kind of action is required?"

I have been pondering this question at length recently, and I've found that question to be a consideration of destiny--my destiny as a brujo, shaman, changeling chameleon mentally metamorphed by the psychedelic experience. To me, this is Castaneda's most interesting discussion--the application of will.

While awake in dreams, I find that I am more ultimately satisfied when I am an objective observer of the plot, instead of abandoning myself to delusion by attemtping to supplant the desires of the dream with my own.

The temptation to act is quite alluring when you can manipulate anyything with an exertion of will (as in dreams). However, by acting in manipulation you are agreeing in consensus with the illusion, and agreeing to be taken by it. I find that truth can only be attained through an appreciation of detachment. When I am fully actualized, I only act when absolutely necessary.

This is what don Juan is teaching to Carlos--to act with recognition of responsibility and will, to be the rock and the pond and the ripple all at once.

The question of whether or not Carlos' experiences are "real" is really not relevant. Whether Castaneda was speaking through an actual or self-imagined account of events, the truth and validity of don Juan's teachings remains salient. As with any experience, whatever you bring to the story is exactly what you will take from it.

If we've learned anything from our psychedelic examnination of ourselves and our Central Nervous System, it is this: that we are dynamic reality receptors, all tuning to a certain frequency of being. Psychedelic plants help scramble and re-tune our percieved signals of awareness. Once opened to new psychic channels, new landscapes of reality are possible. This re-tuning is established through shamanic sorcery techniques--manipulation of the holographic totality.

I have developed a greater awareness of natural unity through Carlos' story; I've been reminded of my relation to the world around me, to the plants, and to the animals, and to the cellular construction of my reality. An unglossing, in Castaneda's terms

Castaneda's/don Juan's teachings have helped un-define my own ontological understandings, and any such re-visioning is a worthwhile discipline.

Castaneda's accounts are especially intriguing in that they reflect my own experience of amassing personal power, which I had been doing long before I read the books. Anyone who has fought lucidly or been preyed upon in the dreamworld, the nagual, can attest to the tangible fact that we psychically manifest our will, allowing an entity to have the power to control another entity's reality.

This is the struggle through which the cosmic experience is narrated.

I appreciate the interview; it was a useful synthesis of terminologies in a way much more appealing than the obesessive anthropological categorization at the end of Castaneda's first book.

[GENEVA]

WHO CARES WHETHER IT WAS TRUE OR NOT
HE WAS A PROPHET.
HIS TEACHINGS ARE MORE AND MORE RELEVENT AS TIME PASSES.
HE WAS A TRIGGER TO OUR AWAKENING.

[urbanmythic]

I am a newbie to this forum. I am not a new to this subject matter. Castañedas work was certainly profound in it's time. Has any one read the "Spiritwalker" trilogy by Dr. Hank Wesselman, also an anthropologist. I have interest in discussing his writings.
Good journeys..'

[Morning*Star67]

Ok I am a newbie too ...So I have some Q's?

Was this one mans "channeled entity" speaking thru him or to him .. Or was it his imagination?And he wrote it down and it is a fiction book. A lot of things that pass for great philosophy we find out later were just some man's ramblings ...
I can not see why he is called a "great philosopher" IF he is fantisizing in his head things ..and/or :eek: he is in contact with an entity that even he cannot know is real or not ..
I am confused by this aspect of the spiritualism that goes on in todays society ..
To say this "don juan" is greater than Jesus; who is real BTW ... is pardon me for saying ... a little silly!
:cool:

[daniel]

Humming,

To answer your question of a few weeks ago. I think action is necessary and necessarily the next step for those who have been going through their own shamanic / esoteric initiations at the margins of the technosphere. The passivity of New Age bliss-bunny spirituality is not good enough. The point is that intensified consciousness has to be transformed into will, and the necessary actions taken in the real world or matrix or whatever one wants to call it to help the transition process. However, these actions have to be undertaken in the right mood of calmness and detachment or they will be ineffective. It is only when you are seeing the whole picture as objectively as you possibly can that the correct action for you to take will become clear. For me, I think it is trying to work with the Hopi and work on their water issues - though I have no idea yet how to go forward on this.

[Halfglass]

Jez: The Ceiling of Madalians! That's another common theme in psychedelic use...isn't that something?--like the insect theme etc. These "places" are obviously THERE...somewhere eh?

Daniel: Helping the Hopi with their water...? Sounds good.

I was at lake Wallenpaupac (In Poconos) sitting with my girlfriend and lo! Along comes a native American 'bout 60 years old with a woman in a brown dress. I happen to have a book on American Indian arrow-heads sitting on the bench next to me, as well as some sage leaf in a tin, and an arrowhead on a chain around me neck. Anyway I hold up a find from the day--what I thought might be an old 'hide scrapper' from centuries past. He walks up. I say: "Hey man, do you think this is a hade scrapper?" (Try asking that to the average man/woman on the street)--he says: "Nah man. Throw that back. It's not one." Conversation happens. He's Joseph Graywolf...owns a hundred acres of land near Honsdale. Invites me and my girl up to camp anytime! (I'm thinking--"This is straight out of don Juan man!") Yes--true story. The teacher will come when the student is ready eh? He had his medicine bag. He's from Mexioco too. I can't spell the tribe name just now cause I havn't seen him to clarify. Next week the 17th I will be hangin with. BTW I lit some of that sage and he danced for a sec. My chick thinks he's nuts but since he has a wife she reckons he can't be too dangerous so she's traveling up with me to visit him.
Peace Dan C.

[ July 12, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Charlie]

Humming: The temptation to act is quite alluring when you can manipulate anyything with an exertion of will (as in dreams). However, by acting in manipulation you are agreeing in consensus with the illusion, and agreeing to be taken by it. I find that truth can only be attained through an appreciation of detachment. When I am fully actualized, I only act when absolutely necessary. These are interesting comments...If you have experienced lucidity in your dreams, then why refer to them as illusion? Perhaps they are parallel realities or dimensions, where upon exerting your will, you have the ability to influence your physical (waking) dimension?

The rest of your statement is very Don Juan-ish...do you feel this restraint is necessary in order not to be compromised by unfriendly forces beyond your control?

Halfglass: I hope you check back in with us and tell us about your encounters with your new friend...

Cheeers

[willoweyes]

Does anyone posting here believe they can manipulate or control anything (besides their own will)? Is control beyond self-control a meme of the Destroyers?

Castenada describes a scene in which poor beggar boys lick the plates of the well-fed. Don Juan tells Carlos not to pity; the children have as much of a chance as anyone to become peerless warriors.

To pity; to help others if the time is not right, will corrode their spirit. On the other hand, to leap in when action is necessary, is the behavior of a hero.

"My quest to catch the
Moment, to leap upon the
Back of the Moment
Which is surely
As flighty; wily
As a witch-haired mustang
Filly, making her way
On tip-toes
Beneath the branch where I wait."

[toppersbazaar]

willoweyes you reffered to "meme" you might want to throw in a quick definition for those that havn'r read all of the Seth books 3 times.....that's what it takes to understand it

[willoweyes]

Toppersbazaar: Thank you for your interest. What I take "meme" to mean, is a contagious idea--like a virus, passing from brain to brain.

I haven't had to opportunity to read the "Seth" books--do they deal with the meme concept?

I too find myself very annoyed when others use incomprehensible language from some esoteric discipline! But meme is a neat word, I think, and it fit what I was trying to say better than any other word I could conjure up.

[Anistara]

Morning Star (in'lakesh, i am morning star as well, but in the outside world)

I am wondering if you are taking entheogens into account when you are replying to the posts. Are you aware that these are transcendental levels and basically all things need to be taken in stride, or read between he lines? We are aiming high for change, so to find the slightest truth in teachings, whether they are shamanic or indigenous, new age or galactic, or down right orthodox, all is to be taken into account as it is presented before us.
I am only asking because both of your posts resonate the same sort of quest for proof and i can see there is ample... atleast that I can see.

[Buzz]

"meme", as I understand it, was used by author Peter Russell to mean: an outdated mode of thinking. Example: we should rally our forces against the coming attack from the Neanderthals!

[Bodi]

I grew up in the country, miles from any neighbors or other kids to play with, no arcade or mall, biggest highlight of the week was going 'to town' to the library. At night, the stars were light little jewels in the black tapestry of night. Growing up in the country is spiritual. You have a lot of time to think, and not many negative distractions. Castaneda's work reached me at about the age of ten, and had a profound effect. I used to go walking in the woods at night, just to practice the teachings. (I also got books from the library on wild mushrooms and plants and practiced amateur botany :eek: ). I was not a child beneficial to his parents sound nervous health. I am familiar with the critisicms of his books, but must say, those books affected me AT LEAST as much as the bible.

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
-Douglas Adams 'Life the Universe and Everything'

[jezebelle]

Quote from the Mayan Factor - Path Beyond Technology, jose arguelles
Kuxan Suum literally"the Road to the Sky Leading to the Umbilical cord of the Universe," defines the invisible galactic like threads or fibers which connect both the individual and the planet through the Sun, to the galactic core, Hunab Ku.
The fibers connect via the solar plexus.
Believe me they got the math to show it.

Castaneda like.

[Bodi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by willoweyes:
[QB]Does anyone posting here believe they can manipulate or control anything (besides their own will)? Is control beyond self-control a meme of the Destroyers?

Willow,

I'm not sure if you're talking about predestination or telekinesis, :D so of course I will give my two cents on both

telekinesis -

Yes. I do.

If you would like to research telekinesis in the mainstream laboratory I would suggest the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research program (PEAR)

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0397/pkindex.htm

is a good introduction, if your not already familiar with it.

Predestination -

I don't believe in predestination. Only in greater or less degrees of probability. So yes, of course you can exert 'control' in the sense of manipulating your environment and effecting a change that wouldn't (ever wonder why people use that particular annotation? Its the same # of keystrokes to just spell the damn words) have otherwise occured, but could have.

Bo'di

"Deep within man dwell these slumbering powers; powers that would astonish him, that he never dreamed of possessing; forces that would revolutionize his life if aroused and put into action" -- Orison Swett Marden

[willoweyes]

My question was does anyone posting here believe they can control external matter/events.

Implicit is the question: why pursue control? Is power the goal, or enlightenment? And is man capable of resisting power, once having tasted it?

I believe "the eye of the Master fatteneth his cattle;" that focused attention can have a strong effect for good or ill. It is unexplained and unpredictable, and it fascinates me. But I don't know anyone that can bend spoons.

[Bodi]

Willow,

Once again, yes. I believe I can 'control/manipulate' matter and events, although I would not express it in that manner. I believe everyone has this potential. Perhaps it is better to say that it is not 'belief' but rather experience, as Joeseph Campbell would say. 'Belief' is not required for things that are well established in your experience. Please do not misunderstand me and think I am claiming to be the next Uri Geller, ;) .

All knowledge, ultimately, is self knowledge. All control, ultimately, is self control. Now, self control in and of itself is neutral, and can manefest in either a 'good' way, or a 'bad' way, depending on your 'perspective', goals, motives. Of course, this perspective is itself an illusion. Personally, I feel that understanding the duality of this is important, because it can help you to transcend the duality, which is your real goal.

This is not to say that so called 'occult' knowledge is 'neccessary', or even 'desirable' (this is a common trap - to seek out the siddas, or powers, is a mistake), per se, but it is a real occurance you will eventually have to deal with in one form, fashion or another in your journey, if you pursue it long enough. Perhaps the power you gain will be an enhanced understanding that bestows a greater ability to relate to reality, hence giving you power, but you cannot separate the aspect of gaining power from the quest for enlightenment, or even mundane knowledge, for that matter, its part of the package. As your knowledge grows, so grows your power. The trick is to remain unattached to the power you gain, and eventually transcend IT as well. So, I guess what I'm saying is, one should not pursue the power knowledge gives for selfish reasons, but understand that it is waiting for you down the Path whether you pursue it or not.

Just my two cents...

Knowing others is Intellegence
Knowing yourself is True Wisdom
Mastering others is Strength
Mastering yourself is True Power

[Humming]

Charlie, as per lucidity:

I am conscious enough in my dreams (most of the time) that they give me blatant symbols thyat will awaken me to lucidity. One instance was a graffiti image of DaVinci's "Vitruvian man" sketch superimposed on the "S" symbol of Superman's cape. This was an obvious message for me, to flex my Shiva muscles and burn through the illusory world into the purely self-malleable world of conscious manipulation.

At times, my dream characters have even made fun of me for not being lucid. On time I was partly lucid and trying to bed this chick when my dream roomate came in and began making out with a blow-up doll in the bed next to me. I told him to get the hell out and he did so grudgingly, muttering that I was no better than him, and that in reality we were both just fucking ourselves. The girl began chiding me as well, telling me how silly I was for choosing to remain blindfolded in pursuit of empty pleasure. Needless to say, that kind of spoiled my mood, and I woke up feeling like a total ass for buying into the illusion. =)

"Perhaps they are parallel realities or dimensions, where upon exerting your will, you have the ability to influence your physical (waking) dimension?"

According to quantum theory, all realities and possibilites exist simultaneously.

My dreams are a reflection of the intentional arrangement of my psyche--a parallel reality, if you will, created by the conscious and subconscious machinations of my will. The goal is to someday have full control, a fully conscious intent, so that no aspect of reality is beyond my ability to understand and create it.

Is this possible? Maybe. I practice every night when I die, and every morning when I am reborn.

The most important thing about dreaming is that practice of awareness in lucid dreaming (total awareness of reality vs illusion) is mirrored in waking life by a smiliar control, understanding, and actualiziation of all experience.

For me, at least, on the really good days....

[Humming]

I was talking to my friends who've read all of Castaneda's books, and they mentioned to me about a video, a sort of training program, by Castaneda's "followers" called "Tensegrity". Does anyone know anything? The video is supposed to be extremely strange, displaying brujo fighting styles with weird lobster claw scuttling movements. I'm going to see if I can find it online somewhere, I'd be interested to see what he imparted to his true believers.

[Gift Horse]

Yes, I've heard of it.

There are training workshops all around the world. I attended a session put on by a 4 Agreement group while in Mexico.

I found it to be a cross between yoga postures and tai chi movements. Definitely some humourous moves as well.

There is a website that lists where the workshops are held. There is a training group here in my little town as well. I haven't been. I'm more a swimming, kayaking hores riding kinda gal.

One can also borrow the video from the local library. (well, at least my library has it)

[Rob P]

you mean horses

; )

[Gift Horse]

LOL
lets hope so!!

[Agent Smith]

why?

why does this topic persist? there are so many more interesting things going on in the world of shamanism than ...you know who...

ack! i will do something other than whine...

...WATCH MY FLYING FLOPPY FISH STYLE!! #1 IN ALL OF CANTON!!

[Buzz]

in Tales of Power Castenada describes DJ turning into what I can only call a UFO. I wrote about it somewhere in this thread I think.

Below is a link to 16th Cpainting by Lavinia Fontana called "Nili Me Tangere" (Don't Touch Me), an image of Jesus meeting Mary Magdelene upon his resurrection. Hangs in the Uffizi Gallery in Florence, Italy.

ascension of Jesus (http://www.wga.hu/art/f/fontana/jesus.app.jpg)

Manning, if you read this, could you explaing how you insert actual photo's into your post?
thanks

[ March 08, 2006, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Buzz]

my link isn't working, but if interested do a search for the Web Gallery of Art, then an Artist Search for Lavinia Fontana or one can do a Goggle image search for Lavinia Fontana Images.

[ March 08, 2006, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[Agape_negates_fear]

http://www.lanostravalle.it/numero48/img/copertina.jpg

Buzz: Below the Instant UBB Code heading is a list of operations. Image is in there, so all you need to insert is a link to an existing image file on the net.

[Buzz]

thanks Agape, and that is the image.

[Buzz]

Thanks Manning, got the e-mail as well. Appreciate the response.

What do you think of the hat?

[ba caracus]

I just read the original post of daniel, then saw this video which i found a little moving, although im finding very emotional of late. I didnt want to take over the ecology post, so im putting it here.

Its a short video;

http://www.supershorts.org.uk/view.html?id=512

Synopsis
When a road tries to destroy ancient forests, two black horses appear to stop the chainsaws.

Inspiration
As the chainsaws started, they didnt run away as you'd expect, but towards the felling.. I just grabbed the camcorder and started filming, nothing was staged, the whole episode only lasted a few minutes, but had quite a profound effect on everyone there. Even the police were dumbfounded, especially by the 'confrontation' between the 'wild' horse and the police horse.

[Caprinardo Delirio]

buuuuuump!

[BrokenHead]

Im not sure if he made it up or not. I've only read "A Yarqi way of Knowledge" which I finished in a hurry to begin reading 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl. The book, I found kind of disturbing, for some reason.. I had a feeling the whole time that he was just making it up, but it seemed realistic.. I'm not qualified to really have an opinion on Castenada though, since I've only read one of his books. I would and probably will read more of his stuff in the future though.

[nyk]

It's pretty obvious that Carlitos 'made it all up'. But at the same time it
is also quite real. Some people have a difficult time reconciling that, but
I believe that this conundrum makes the Castaneda affair all the more
provocative, even useful.

Ramtha is another example. A total fraud and absolutely real at the same
time. I was there 10 years, so I know that one pretty well.

Jesus, as we know it, another one.

This stuff is pretty interesting. This schizoid feature is peripherally pointing
to something...a crack of some kind.

[gandydancer]

nyk, I sure have been enjoying your posts. I am one of those who has had problems with Castaneda. I felt his early books were quite good and certainly filled the need of young men looking for a mentor on their personal Heroe's Journey. Then quite a few years passed and I happened to read his last book, or one of the last ones, and I felt he had fallen off the deep end. When I found out he was a "fake", I have to admit that I had that "Ha! I *knew* you were a phoney!" feeling.

Over the years I have worked with this problem that I've had with Castaneda, and have gradually accepted that my mind tends to see things as either/or and black and white. I can't say that my mind has changed over the years, that is still the way it works, but I have learned to listen to others who have the ability to see the shades of grey better than I do.

I went to the movie "What the Bleep" with a friend and neither of us cared much for it. But just to keep an open mind we decided to take the movie's challange and ask for a miraculous event. The next day when she walked her dog in the woods she stood at a high place at the edge of the ocean and asked for her "sign", and eagle flew out of nowhere to just a few feet from her face, and in her words, "looked right at me". She also found an eagle feather that day, though she has never seen eagles in that woods before or since.

So there you are... If that wasn't a "sign", I don't know what one might be! And yet the movie still seems to us, umm, quite fluffy? We/I especially had a problem with Ramatha--so well-packaged, if you get my drift? So I'd be very interested in hearing more about her as you say you "know that one pretty well". And more of your thoughts on this topic in general...

[craazyman]

Now that's just the problem with signs, they're open to so many interpretations that there's often no information value at all. People end up painting them with whatever hopes/dreams/fears are paramount. I suspect that the decline of ancient Greece came from taking the oracle of Delphi too seriously.

[willoweyes]

Last week, feeling ultimately discouraged (luckily for me, my preferred mode of suicide is starvation, which gives one ample time to wake up to a sunnier day) I went for a walk. I looked up, and there above the Eye of God (or our stock tank, as some might term it) I saw a flock of 50 or so pelicans. They were in two groups, and the groups swirled and coupled like the warp and woof of a forming tapestry. They continued this, going higher and higher, until I could no longer see them in the bright sky.

Needless to say, I felt cheered.

And as for signs and portents, I can only repeat the words of someone wiser than me: God is alive, magic is afoot.
_______________
Reconcile opposites.

[nyk]

nyk, I sure have been enjoying your posts. I am one of those who has had problems with Castaneda. I felt his early books were quite good and certainly filled the need of young men looking for a mentor on their personal Heroe's Journey. Then quite a few years passed and I happened to read his last book, or one of the last ones, and I felt he had fallen off the deep end. When I found out he was a "fake", I have to admit that I had that "Ha! I *knew* you were a phoney!" feeling.

Over the years I have worked with this problem that I've had with Castaneda, and have gradually accepted that my mind tends to see things as either/or and black and white. I can't say that my mind has changed over the years, that is still the way it works, but I have learned to listen to others who have the ability to see the shades of grey better than I do.


Black and White is like binary code. All of those shades in between are
what Analog is (or was:( ) all about. Everything around us is a form of
fiction. With regards to C and R, the thought that has oft come to my
mind has been, "how can something so right also be so wrong?". There
are profound undercurrents coursing within our realities, and these
currents appear to poke thru the camoflage in very enigmatic ways.
I just remembered something my first fulltime guru said once in response
to a query about C - "Castaneda is fake; don Juan is real". There is
something very strange and interesting going on within our entire
existence. I have come to appreciate the fictionality of the situation.
On one hand, there are vital and intrinsic truths that I have gleaned
from C and R and several others whom I have invested my focus into;
on the other hand all of these have been found to have an enormous
aspect of fictionality and abberation. The latter aspect is in reality
extremely liberating. If it was not for that I would have never found
independence: I would have been trapped. Perfection is a deadly
trap. This is why I find beings like Tolle and Wilbur repulsive. They
are too correct, too perfect. God/Truth needs to be established
first and primarily within the individual's own soul - that black hole
right behind the sternum. As long a God/Truth is primarily objectified
rather than subjectified then we are chasing ourselves perpetually
the long way around. But then, that is our game. Until Q-Day, that is.



I went to the movie "What the Bleep" with a friend and neither of us cared much for it. But just to keep an open mind we decided to take the movie's challange and ask for a miraculous event. The next day when she walked her dog in the woods she stood at a high place at the edge of the ocean and asked for her "sign", and eagle flew out of nowhere to just a few feet from her face, and in her words, "looked right at me". She also found an eagle feather that day, though she has never seen eagles in that woods before or since.

So there you are... If that wasn't a "sign", I don't know what one might be! And yet the movie still seems to us, umm, quite fluffy? We/I especially had a problem with Ramatha--so well-packaged, if you get my drift? So I'd be very interested in hearing more about her as you say you "know that one pretty well". And more of your thoughts on this topic in general...


There is something you need to understand about that 'movie'. It is
a shamanic gesture. It's unspoken intent is to simply send an arrow
of Intent into each and every being that sat before it. It is a trick. All
of the mishmash in the film is an attempt to hold the viewer while the
unseen is penetrating you and turning something around inside of you.
That's all it is, and it is rather powerful. Very few people consciously
understand that, even those involved with R. The significant 'scene'
in that film is near the end when Marlee stands before the mirror. In
fact, that is the whole thing right there. The rest of it is indeed fluff.
And that eagle is direct proof that of what I just explained. R got you.
But you chose to watch the film, so on some deep level you wanted
this. The manifestation indicates that something has been initiated
within you. You can now move forward with that - without R and
all of the fluff - into a truly magical undertaking if you desire. For my
partner and myself this has become a continuum of magicality.

[nyk]

Now that's just the problem with signs, they're open to so many interpretations that there's often no information value at all. People end up painting them with whatever hopes/dreams/fears are paramount. I suspect that the decline of ancient Greece came from taking the oracle of Delphi too seriously.

As long as the oracling remains objectified we will always be in dire
straits.

Everything is a sign. Everything is bathed in magic.

[gandydancer]

[QUOTE]
There is something you need to understand about that 'movie'. It is
a shamanic gesture. It's unspoken intent is to simply send an arrow
of Intent into each and every being that sat before it. It is a trick. All
of the mishmash in the film is an attempt to hold the viewer while the
unseen is penetrating you and turning something around inside of you.
That's all it is, and it is rather powerful. Very few people consciously
understand that, even those involved with R. The significant 'scene'
in that film is near the end when Marlee stands before the mirror. In
fact, that is the whole thing right there. The rest of it is indeed fluff.
And that eagle is direct proof that of what I just explained. R got you.
But you chose to watch the film, so on some deep level you wanted
this. The manifestation indicates that something has been initiated
within you. You can now move forward with that - without R and
all of the fluff - into a truly magical undertaking if you desire. For my
partner and myself this has become a continuum of magicality.
[END QUOTE]

nyk, you say, "R got you.". Well if she/he did, I have yet to see any results of it. We went to see the movie because everybody else was seeing it and we wondered what exactly it was about. And as for "direct proof", we didn't need that--both my friend and I have experienced many "miracles' over the years.

That the eagle flew (Haha, right now I just can't get the eagle from the Colbere Repore out of my imagination!) does not at all give any believablity to the movie or to Ramtha, it only suggests what we knew already, that the mind can affect matter. We were, and still are, just so surprised to see it happen almost on call! But that has not suddenly made us want to go to a Ramanth reading, or whatever they are called--after I made my post this morning I went to a few of their sites and it confirmed, at least for me, what I had thought all along: If there's a buck to be made preaching new age phisosophy, it will be made.

[nyk]

Gandydancer-

C'mon, you can do better than that. I'm not recommending following
anyone, not even liking them. I am pointing you to magic, magic that
is in your field. You are putting more attention to finding faults with
the thing, than cutting underneath and seeing the other currents
in motion. There is power - for you - in altering your focus that way.
It is to your advantage; an allegiance to your own soul, not R's or
anyone else's. An opportunity. And just one of many, many such things.
I am only highlighting that one for the moment, because we have both
seen it. There is magic all around. And this slide into Q-Day, which is
quite real, is ripe with all kinds of potentials for one to take advantage
of. Every moment that you convert from hominid consciousness to
soul conciousness is a moment of magic which imprints your being, and
also works to evolve your being towards and into what your personal
Intent holds; your Dream.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Willow,the pelicans you saw landed up in on the North Canadian River arm of Lake Eufaula in the Mountains of Bush(can any of you idiots figure that sign out?).
They told me yes,they had noticed you too.
Our fall garden here is magnificant.
The ducks and dove came through early and the squriels ar working like crazy.Must mean a cold winter.

[willoweyes]

Thank you Isaiah. Yes, my fall garden is making me forget the hardships of this summer.

Glad you are back.

[gandydancer]

Gandydancer-

C'mon, you can do better than that. I'm not recommending following
anyone, not even liking them. I am pointing you to magic, magic that
is in your field. You are putting more attention to finding faults with
the thing, than cutting underneath and seeing the other currents
in motion. There is power - for you - in altering your focus that way.
It is to your advantage; an allegiance to your own soul, not R's or
anyone else's. An opportunity. And just one of many, many such things.
I am only highlighting that one for the moment, because we have both
seen it. There is magic all around. And this slide into Q-Day, which is
quite real, is ripe with all kinds of potentials for one to take advantage
of. Every moment that you convert from hominid consciousness to
soul conciousness is a moment of magic which imprints your being, and
also works to evolve your being towards and into what your personal
Intent holds; your Dream.

Yes I agree there is magic all around--so why settle for fake channeling, fake crystals, fake claims that the Native Americans couldn't see a ship because they'd never seen one before and so on? There's plenty of real magic in real science for me.

[nyk]

Gandydancer...

I don't know if you could have missed my point any more than you did.

So let's just forget it ever happened.

Careful with those sciences you want to keep company with. Most have
an agenda.

[gandydancer]

Oh! You mean that I'm just not progressed enough in my spiritual journey to know that you are more progressed than me?

Well please, by all means just go right ahead and again try to explain the points I have missed.

Or on the other hand just don't--and remain on top, in your mind anyway, in your game of who's the most enlightened here anyway?

Careful with those sciences you want to keep company with. Most have
an agenda.

Hard and even noetic science does not have "an agenda". It is pseudo science, such as presented in "What the Bleep", that has an agenda.

[nyk]

Oh Jeez gandy, chill out.

It's all fiction out there, and everyone has an agenda. I am interested
in illiciting magic from within everything in my experience - that is a good
use of time and resourses for me. I take advantage of anything that
comes under my scrutiny, even if it is a bad movie that I CHOSE to sit
thru for a couple of hours.

Furthermore I was with Ramtha for an entire decade, and he/she is a
pal of mine, so if I were to take up your attitude, then I should be the
one taking venomous exception here. :eek:

[DogSoldiers]

I definately think our ego's/personalities (I only speak from personal experience) get in the way far too much when the message/magic/the field/universe/whatever you call it......tries to reach out to us.

And conduits are a funny thing that seems we're just beginning to really get a grip on. There seem to be those that channel (Ramtha, Esther Hicks), those that express a certain ancient widsom from their teachers (Alberto Villoldo, Castenada), and those that just seem to innately pick it up (Adam, the dreamhealer).

Each of them has a different way of explaining their message, but it definately seems that the "theme" of their wisdom is right on the money.

And yes, there also seems to be another theme. They ALL do seem to be a lot about the money.

But like the hummingbird hitching a ride on a much larger bird (perhaps the bird drives a hummer) to travel a great distance.

Some of us call it lazy.

Some of us call it genius.

What does it matter? As long as the hummingbird reaches it's destination.

The real good question is, what is the true destination of the message.

M. Night Shymalan's latest movie "Lady in the water" was beautiful. And there's a part where M. Night's character asks the narf what the importance of this book that she's there to give him the inspiration to finish it. She tells him that the book, in the distant future, will spark the mind of a young man who will change the world!

2012 is getting closer every day...

Maybe someone out there needs your positive support and not your negativity!

[nyk]

My love is a two-edged sword. Many do not understand it. Understanding
is something that one has to fight for....everyone does. And magic works
in many ways, including negative ones.

There is something speaking to us within everything out there. And it is
something that bears little ressemblance or relation to that which it is
speaking thru. Daniel speaks of this become a cartoony world. Ain't that
the truth. I went into the local tobacco shop to buy a paper before dinner.
Most other shops are out of the local paper by that hour. I saw there
were none. I said to the girl at the counter, "all out of papers". She replied,
"someone stole the flag; it was marked with 1968". I came out shaking
my head.....

Ramtha had a few good one-liners, and they speak from a profound and
awesome place. I know that for a fact. And the channel for that voice,
even the Ramtha character itself, are I am finding, clueless as to what
is being expressed to me. It is a very strange thing. But anyway, one
of the best things he/she/it said was thus:

"When you can no longer tell the difference between your dream reality
and your day reality, then you will have awoken."

This is right on the money, and right on time. And that is what my
personal work is all about. It is essentially what 2012 represents, the
great convergence. We are spiralling beautifully into exactly that
awakening, in the flesh, for real.