USA Today on 2012

[daniel]

March 28, 2007

Does Maya calendar predict 2012 apocalypse?

By G. Jeffrey MacDonald, Special to USA TODAY


With humanity coming up fast on 2012, publishers are helping readers gear up and count down to this mysterious — some even call it apocalyptic — date that ancient Mayan societies were anticipating thousands of years ago.

Since November, at least three new books on 2012 have arrived in mainstream bookstores. A fourth is due this fall. Each arrives in the wake of the 2006 success of 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl, which has been selling thousands of copies a month since its release in May and counts more than 40,000 in print. The books also build on popular interest in the Maya, fueled in part by Mel Gibson's December 2006 film about Mayan civilization, Apocalpyto.

Authors disagree about what humankind should expect on Dec. 21, 2012, when the Maya's "Long Count" calendar marks the end of a 5,126-year era.

Journalist Lawrence Joseph forecasts widespread catastrophe in Apocalypse 2012: A Scientific Investigation Into Civilization's End. Spiritual healer Andrew Smith predicts a restoration of a "true balance between Divine Feminine and Masculine" in The Revolution of 2012: Vol. 1, The Preparation. In 2012, Daniel Pinchbeck anticipates a "change in the nature of consciousness," assisted by indigenous insights and psychedelic drug use.

The buildup to 2012 echoes excitement and fear expressed on the eve of the new millennium, popularly known as Y2K, though on a smaller scale, says Lynn Garrett, senior religion editor at Publishers Weekly. She says publishers seem to be courting readers who believe humanity is creating its own ecological disasters and desperately needs ancient indigenous wisdom.

"The convergence I see here is the apocalyptic expectations, if you will, along with the fact that the environment is in the front of many people's minds these days," Garrett says. "Part of the appeal of these earth religions is that notion that we need to reconnect with the Earth in order to save ourselves."

But scholars are bristling at attempts to link the ancient Maya with trends in contemporary spirituality. Maya civilization, known for advanced writing, mathematics and astronomy, flourished for centuries in Mesoamerica, especially between A.D. 300 and 900. Its Long Count calendar, which was discontinued under Spanish colonization, tracks more than 5,000 years, then resets at year zero.

"For the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle," says Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Fla. To render Dec. 21, 2012, as a doomsday or moment of cosmic shifting, she says, is "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."

Part of the 2012 mystique stems from the stars. On the winter solstice in 2012, the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way for the first time in about 26,000 years. This means that "whatever energy typically streams to Earth from the center of the Milky Way will indeed be disrupted on 12/21/12 at 11:11 p.m. Universal Time," Joseph writes.

But scholars doubt the ancient Maya extrapolated great meaning from anticipating the alignment — if they were even aware of what the configuration would be.

Astronomers generally agree that "it would be impossible the Maya themselves would have known that," says Susan Milbrath, a Maya archaeoastronomer and a curator at the Florida Museum of Natural History. What's more, she says, "we have no record or knowledge that they would think the world would come to an end at that point."

University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."


http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-03-27-maya-2012_N.htm?csp=34


THE YEAR FOR BOOKS

Current and coming books on 2012:

2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl by Daniel Pinchbeck (Penguin/Tarcher, May 2006)

2013 Oracle: Ancient Keys to the 2012 Awakening by David Carson & Nina Sammons (Council Oaks, November 2006)

Apocalypse 2012: A Scientific Investigation Into Civilization's End by Lawrence Joseph (Random House/Morgan Road, January 2007)

The Revolution of 2012: Vol. 1, The Preparation by Andrew Smith (Ford Evans, January 2007)

Serpent of Light by Drunvalo Melchizedek (Red Wheel/Weiser, Autumn 2007)

[Caprinardo Delirio]

"2012" has been featuring in the song titles on both the new hella record "there's no 666 in outer space" and on the klaxons "myths of the near future"

i can't even begin to start on how intense both words like mysticism, shamanism, psychedelia, neo-paganism, and their more or less prototypical renderings of these themes have become all across the spectrum on the music scenes, the last few years. it's rising and rising.

[Caprinardo Delirio]

plus, is daniel pinchbeck the inspiration in some way for the superprophet 'pinbacker' in danny boyle's new ultra-gorgeous, yet über-idiotic sci-fi flick called sunshine???

i saw it last night.. it really really was, like, the worlds greatest production, but the worlds worst acting. so, i decided to just skip the story and just look at it, and it really helped. so did the skunk.

[magicbean]

The 2012 meme is just a a trend, it's not surprising that it's everywhere (which it isn't) . It's hip and popular in certain parts of the western world. And it'll pass. I doubt anyone in China or Indonesia or Siberia is talking about 2012.

I would hardly call USA Today a reputable source of news. Popular yes, but it's not the Times, the Post, the Tribune. 2012 references making into USA Today mean it's gaining in popularity. You know how when you have a broken leg, somehow, magically, it seems like everyone has a broken leg? It's not that more people have broken legs, it's just that your consciousness has the "notice broken leg" switch turned on, and you see what you didn't notice before, but the quantitative number of legs in casts hasn't changed.

Great free publicity for daniel's book. That's a huge name drop in a well-read place.

I suggest considering what Mark Pesce had to say about it at Burning Man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtQnXA1KKMY

(party 1)

And what I want to know is can I get my money back on December 13, 2012?

[Dax]

Astronomers generally agree that "it would be impossible the Maya themselves would have known that," says Susan Milbrath, a Maya archaeoastronomer and a curator at the Florida Museum of Natural History. What's more, she says, "we have no record or knowledge that they would think the world would come to an end at that point."

This is such a classic example of how modern day, 3D entrenched Western science totally discounts "ancient" civilizations simply because their technology was not the same as ours.

This person also totally does not take into account that any written records the Maya kept were destroyed by the Spanish Invaders. Isn't this a known fact? Isn't saying "If it doesn't exist anymore, then it must never have existed" a horribly irresponsible approach?

[magicbean]

Sure she does take into account that any written records are gone. In fact you quoted it:

What's more, she says, "we have no record or knowledge that they would think the world would come to an end at that point."

And I doubt she would have built a career studying an ancient civilization if she discounted the knowledge contained there.

[Caprinardo Delirio]

funny you should post that bean, i just listened to an interview between pesce and james kent. i've known pesce's name for a long time and have some vague understanding of him, but decided to get more in touch with him, and that interview certainly helped... and wauw, looked like some seriously agressive amphetamine he was on in that clip!

[Caprinardo Delirio]

and there's a lot not being talked about in both china, indonesia and siberia that might be well worth talking about.. i do feel that even our tabloid discourse are more epistemically important than much of what is being said and done in that part of the world.

am i a racist?

[magicbean]

Aw, I think it was just a rant, not amphetamines. Been on one myself for few months now, and I don't even drink caffeine. I'm just sick to death (as Pesce is) of all the junk that people are willing to believe, without question, because they want to think it's true. Welcome to New Age Fundamentalism. The tenets are something like this:

The world is going to end really, really soon and we deserve it.
Science is a mean trick played on us by the white man.
Humanity is bad, but we're going to raise our consciousness to utopia, likely by prayer.
If your theory is way far out and occult and non-mainstream, you are to be believed because you're a rebellious and inquisitive mind. Doesn't matter if 1,000 other people have evidence refuting you.

And they all *know* it, the same way a Christian Fundie knows the Bible is the Truth.

Now there are big problems on the planet, for sure. And science has some self-awareness problems to think about. And I do believe that there are some bad people, especially in the US administration. And there are some crazy sounding folks who might be right. But man, we are willing to believe so much stuff that can be refuted, flat-out. Believing things for which there simply is no proof other than someone else thought so, convincingly. And it's giving a lot of good ideas and good things (including psychedelics) a bad name.

As for all the parts of the world not convinced of 2012, if it were rilly rilly rilly true, wouldn't that knowledge be understood despite government restrictions on communication? Or do you need the internet to learn about 2012? Isn't this supposedly transcendent knowledge without a boundary? I suspect (though I freely admit I have no evidence) if you went to a Chinese sage and asked about 2012, he would raise an eyebrow and say WTF. The 2012 idea is cultural, and there are a few, a very few, correlations with other cultural doomsday prophesies, but not enough to make it international phenomenon.

I'm sicker than a yellow dog with malaria which is why I can spend so much time posting on the net instead of doing real work. Which makes me grumpy.

[Dax]

Magicbean....

It's the "It would be impossible" part that gets under my skin. Perhaps the comment is taken out of context, but to say, with utter certainly that something is downright "impossible," it makes me wonder.... how can anyone be that certain??

Had the comment been "It is not very likely given what we have been able to research," then I would have taken the comment a little more seriously.

Not everyone who is involved in the 2012 Camp (or whatever you want to call it) buys into these things with blind adherance. In fact I would say very few, if any members on this message board, are that way. Problem is... once the mainstream media gets a hold of this (as it is beginning to) it will put a spin on it as if anyone who has an interest in these things buys into the tennents you described.... it's black or white, we're complete nutters or rational materialists, us or them... forgetting everything inbetween.

Pesce does have a point in that talk he gave, and those of us in this 2012 camp DO need to be cautious that we don't cross that line into blindly believing these things simply because we think it sounds good.

I think two of the best talks I've heard given about the 2012 thing were episodes 56 and 57 of the Psychedelic Salon... back to back talks given by Lorenzo and Daniel at the Oracle Gathering last October. Lorenzo talks about being careful not to cross that line so that we do not become a "cult." Both talks were very uplifting and optimistic, I thought. I reccomend to anyone who hasn't heard these talks to give them a listen. Good stuff.

[magicbean]

She might actually have evidence that it is impossible, I have no idea. There are things we can be certain of, no matter how many drugs we do :) It's still important that someone in the field of archaeoastronomy would say "We have no record that they would think the world would come to an end."

2012 is already a cultish diaspora, like any other apocalyptic cult, just has a different flavor.

I would bet that no one on this board has direct, accurate, foolproof, testable, repeatable, real evidence that 2012 is the end of the world. Anyone? crickets chirping. Anyone?

If there's no evidence, there's blind belief stirred into that tea.

[Dax]

She might actually have evidence that it is impossible, I have no idea. There are things we can be certain of, no matter how many drugs we do :) It's still important that someone in the field of archaeoastronomy would say "We have no record that they would think the world would come to an end."

2012 is already a cultish diaspora, like any other apocalyptic cult, just has a different flavor.

I would bet that no one on this board has direct, accurate, foolproof, testable, repeatable, real evidence that 2012 is the end of the world. Anyone? crickets chirping. Anyone?

If there's no evidence, there's blind belief stirred into that tea.

Oh indeed. It's always good to have balance.

Personally, I do not believe that anything can be "proven" with 100% certainly. Proven only insofar that it satisfies our ability to observe, but that entire basis could be flawed. We simply do not know.... one of the most exciting (and difficult to accept) things about life is living without answers.

No one can proove that the world is going to end. And from what I understand, the Mayans didn't believe the world would end... simply go through a transition.

In what way that manefests itself, if at all... we shall see. I do think that anyone who demands proof will be dissapointed. "Proof," I feel... no matter if it is presented through materialistic science or spiritual mumbo-jumbo, is the biggest illusion of all.

Either way, exciting times lie on the horizon. My heart and my intuition tells me that. Best we can do is try and live our lives with peace and love in our hearts... the worst we can do is give in to fear, anger, and hysteria.

[magicbean]

Personally, I do not believe that anything can be "proven" with 100% certainly.

Well, we agree that no one knows the future! But no one walks about their daily life as if they really believed we could not know *anything*, or we don't have "proof" of things. Wonder what would happen if I tried telling my bank that there's no proof that I spent all that money I had. Or if a parent tried telling their kids that there was no "proof" they needed to have food on the table tomorrow? Or there's no proof that a carrot seed will turn into a carrot?

No one can prove that the world is going to end. And from what I understand, the Mayans didn't believe the world would end... simply go through a transition.

Like Pesce said, did you receive knowledge about this? Or did you just read about it and you believe it? For all I know, you do have some kind of knowledge. I just think you're making my point. You heard someone's interpretation of Mayan astronomy, liked it, and there you are. Hey, I jump on bandwagons I like too, I'm no wise woman. I would bet everyone receiving "knowledge" and "visions" about 2012 have read about it somewhere first, and are retrofitting their experiences into the pattern they want to see.

I do think that anyone who demands proof will be disappointed.

Either that, or those who didn't demand enough proof will be disappointed!

This is such a classic example of how modern day, 3D entrenched Western science totally discounts "ancient" civilizations simply because their technology was not the same as ours.

Now that I re-read that, it really bothered me. There are not departments of mesoamerican studies and aboriginal studies and african archaeology just so professors can have a good laugh. There are plenty of great scientists and researchers out there willing to examine, experiment, and take a good hard look at this old information, and willing to examine what it says and doesn't say. What they aren't willing to do is give in when the occult or ancient theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Science is not the answer to all things and has limits, but it's an excellent and reliable way to discern bullshit. I'm right in line to say that humans have lost wisdom and insight that older civilizations had. But old != right. Polio isn't caused by bad spirits, and isn't best cured by shaking a rattle. Human sacrifice to appease the gods...probably not such a good idea and not one we really need to test out so much, though if we do I volunteer Karl Rove.

We all like what scientists are telling us about climate change, right? So why don't we like it when they challenge closely held beliefs about 2012?

This is useless anecdata, but I live near a metropolitan area with a significant number of scientsts and nobel laureates. They're quirky and demanding, but "entrenched" they are not. They're certainly more willing to take a second look than the most of the crystal ball gazers.

And if I'm wrong, and in December 2012 we all ascend to the magnificent heaven of whateverthehell, drinks are on me. Anyone buying me a drink if we're all here and human on December 13?

[suebee]

what? it's just a coincidence that the milky way aligns and the mayans emphasize that date? once every 26k years? as for the end of the world, ha!

[magicbean]

coincidence is pretty much the answer suebee!

my family happens to emphasize my birthday (the 10th) and my socks don't match one in every 10 times. coincidence or the end of the world?

[suebee]

yes, many things are just coincidence magicbean. and i dont think 2012 is the end any more than i thought 2000 was gonna have any effect on anything. but! there is more to many things than coincidence!

[Dax]

Magicbean-

All I really said was I don't apreciate it when someone says "It would be impossible...." That, to me, is no different than saying "I have all the answers, and if you believe differently, you are a fool."

I am not looking for answers, and I am not looking for proof of anything. Once again- as for proof that nothing will happen on 2012, of course no one has proof. But then again no one has proof that something won't happen, either.

And that is what makes life exciting, no? The Mystery?

Yes, I read books and yes, I like some ideas more than others. But that's usually because they jive with my own intuition for one reason or another. I take in what I read, I take in what I hear from others, and I take in what I subjectively experience- be it through waking life, lucid dreams, psychadelic experiences or meditation. I search my feelings and I follow my heart. That's all I can do.

[magicbean]

All I really said was I don't apreciate it when someone says "It would be impossible...." That, to me, is no different than saying "I have all the answers, and if you believe differently, you are a fool."

Shrug. OK. That sounds strange to me.

These two statements are entirely different:

It would be impossible to read that clock from this distance if you have a high level of myopia.

versus

You can't read that clock from here, dummy! I've been an optometrist for 15 years, and I know you'd have to have perfect vision to see that!

If the astroarchaeologist is a reputable researcher, she's saying the first statement, not the second. The first has verifiable, clear information in it. The second doesn't.

[Dax]

How can you say something is impossible when you don't have all the information?

"Impossible" is a very strong word. How is her research and information so accurate that she can safely say "impossible," and we loely laymen are just supposed to accept it because she is an "expert?" Why is her information any more (or less) credible than Jenkins or Calleman?

Whenever anyone says "impossible" or "fact" with diehard certainly, it raises a certian level of skepticism in my mind, no matter which angle it comes from. And that's what we're supposed to keep doing, right? Question things?

[magicbean]

There are things we can say with certainty:

The sun is too hot for humans to live on it.
It is impossible to both walk to the store and ride in a car at the same time.
People and animals are suffering.

You can say that theoretically, somewhere, there's a weird circumstance where these things don't hold, but no one acts as if it were really true. Not that it's not fun and important to play with the idea.

> Why is her information any more (or less) credible than Jenkins or Calleman?

That is a mighty fine question, and one I don't have the answer to, not knowing all the works and names. My instinct has to do with, the farther out you have to reach to make your theory work, and the more weird and unusual circumstances you have to pull in, and the more work and machinations and jumping jacks you have to do to make idea sound smart, the less likely it is to be accurate. Like a card house.

I'm a skeptic too (look how I doubt anything to do with 2012), but I'm willing to call a hot stove that burns my hand a hot stove.

Appreciate the conversation, by the way. Hope it's intereting to you and others.

[Desertfox]

i had a funny idea that maybe all those maya were predicting the release of daniel's book and only was a few years off in getting the date right.

[magicbean]

Hahahahahaha.

ahem.

snort.

[Dax]

There are things we can say with certainty:

That is a mighty fine question, and one I don't have the answer to, not knowing all the works and names. My instinct has to do with, the farther out you have to reach to make your theory work, and the more weird and unusual circumstances you have to pull in, and the more work and machinations and jumping jacks you have to do to make idea sound smart, the less likely it is to be accurate. Like a card house.

I by no means claim to be a scholar on any of these topics. My free-time is limited and very precious to me, so when I'm reading a book or studying a topic, I try to let the information absorb into my psyche naturally, and let whatever responses in my brain trigger as they will. "Wow! THAT sounds interesting!" or "Strange... that seems a little familiar to me for some reason..." or "Huh. I wonder where this person came up with that..." Many many times I find myself saying "I should look more into this idea."

I have always had a fairly good b.s. detector, at least insofar as being able to intuit whether the writer has truly done his or her homework; has good intensions, but is a little off base; or is an utter charlatan or robot who is simply muttering pre-programmed words and ideas.

I'm a skeptic too (look how I doubt anything to do with 2012), but I'm willing to call a hot stove that burns my hand a hot stove.
Indeed- and I guess I am as well. I rarely (if ever) hold any absolute credence to what I read or hear. The reason why I get frustrated with hardcore materialist-rationalists is because most of the time they simply discount anything else that they can't wrap their hands around and shake. And true, I understand this is how the scientific method works, and certainly do not discount its place and purpose. But even science tells us that the majority of the information in the universe we simply cannot perceive. And I know that information is important, and that we are picking up on it in various ways every day, whether we are conscious of it or not.

Appreciate the conversation, by the way. Hope it's intereting to you and others.
Oh, indeed! It is good to discuss these things with someone who is looking at it from a different angle. Helps keeps us grounded, and it helps us to learn as well.

[Chiel]

and there's a lot not being talked about in both china, indonesia and siberia that might be well worth talking about.. i do feel that even our tabloid discourse are more epistemically important than much of what is being said and done in that part of the world.

am i a racist?

Not a racist. Just very, very ignorant, arrogant, self-righteous. And that's fine.

[Caprinardo Delirio]

well, good.

it was an ecological pun, by the way.. you know how phil k. dick used to say "reality is what when you stop believing in it still remains"? i wasn't trying to be ethnocentric or anything like that, just noting that when it comes to politics and ecology we really can't afford to live in private idahos of either ideology, mythology or community any longer. the world is round, it has limitations and realities that no amount of occulting or ostriching will help you escape from.

[Caprinardo Delirio]

and i don't think being ignorant, arrogant or self-righteous is fine, so you know..

help yourself!

[longgrazz]

yes, many things are just coincidence magicbean. and i don't think 2012 is the end any more than i thought 2000 was gonna have any effect on anything. but! there is more to many things than coincidence!
Poler inversion is no unexplained coincidence when it dose the magnetic shield drops for Daniel 12 11-12 you survive this you are in nirvana ( beginning of new time order )