Salvia Neophyte...

[stfrequency]

Greetings,

I feel compelled to share my recent experiences with Salvia. First of all, the circumstances that led me to finally obtain some of the plant were charged with the psychic excitement of meaningful coincidence. One afternoon I had a sudden thought that it might be time for me to seek out Salvia, remembering that I should be able to purchase it locally. I googled "salvia atlanta" to discover a news story from a year ago that mentioned a nearby head shop. Shortly thereafter, my girlfriend calls and informed me that she'd just heard a radio plug for the local FOX news affiliate promising a seamy expose on a psychedelic herb, to air that evening. I knew intuitively (and correctly) this was Salvia she was referencing, a name she'd never heard of before this. From that moment, my fascination with the plant has not abated.

My roommate and I soon ventured to the shady part of town to score some Club 13 20x from the overly-pierced proprietor of a pothead/skateboard shop. We also bought an ounce of dried leaves. Our first experiences were characterized by uncontrollable laughter, which came as a relief to me as I was coiled in apprehension. As soon as my giggling fit subsided, I was amazed to sense--feel, see, and hear--a single pattern impress itself on my consciousness. I noticed a faint trippy blurring effect in my vision, along with an electricity in my hands and chest similar to the vibrations and tingles of a nitrous oxide huff. When I brought my hands together or brushed them against my rumpled clothing, a distinct shape made itself felt -- I quickly noticed that this shape or pattern was lightly visible in the center of my field of vision. It came to a point like an upturned "V" and rounded smoothly at the bottom. I could even hear this pattern overlayed on the synth stabs of the music that was playing, like a sharply pointed flange effect. I also felt a distinct tingling running up and down my breastbone. Without thinking or consciously analyzing this phenomenon, I blurted out: "It's a leaf!" My roommate/sitter seemed to concur, although he hadn't had the same experience. This sensation rapidly subsided and I was left in an awe of such a visceral connection with what seemed to be the plant's actual essence. I later imagined that the strange tingling running up my chest was like the spine that divides the leaf...

Needless to say, I was now under Salvia's spell and continued to research and discuss this amazing entheogen over the next weeks. My girlfriend tried some 20x and had amusing cartoonesque visions with eyes open; my roommate repeatedly experienced sensations of twisting and falling, accompanied by laughter. We decided that the extract we were working with was either too weak or impure, or both. The trashy design of the polywrap packaging signalled to me that I was likely doing the plant a disservice by experimenting with it in such a poorly processed and marketed form. I question the quality of the original plant matter, and doubt that the high potency Club 13 touts translates correctly to properly refined extraction scales.

I came home one night to find that roommate and girlfriend had purchased some more Club 13, "40x" this time, and both of them seemed shaken by the experience. They immediately tried to get me to try it, but I was unnerved and refused. My girl told me she'd never do it again. Her trip was dissociative and frightening--she was suddenly unaware that she'd ingested a substance and her sitter's fleeting absence from the room in search of water for her plunged her into a world of abandonment and stark loneliness. He had smoked it twice that night and felt markedly increased episodes of bodily motion, twisting, plunging... I decided to wait.

Not long after, I took the rest of the extract to a cabin with a small group of friends. The recent lunar eclipse was that evening, and some very profound intersubjectivity/coincidences highlighted the early part of our night. I brought out the salvia and several people had their first taste... I was very wary about over-serving them after my girlfriend's freak-out, and due most likely to moderate dosing, none had any sort of breakthrough. The intense anticipation of our session quickly wore down and I quietly packed myself a bowl and sat on the couch. A track by Ricardo Villalobos ("True to Myself" -- check it out!) played on the stereo as I inhaled deeply. As the trip came on, I was blown out of the moment... very disoriented and overwhelmed. When I came to, the most profoundly distorted reality I've ever known overtook me. The music and the lighting in the room conquered my trip, and I was experiencing something like my own head being stretched up the wall and across the ceiling, from lower jaw to the top of my skull. It was so incredibly twisted, I was in total awe, and I spoke the words: "You've got to be kidding me." My own words were quickly echoed in the breathy, stuttering vocals of the music -- "you--uu've ... gahh--ahht ... toooo ... be ... kiiii--diinngg..." It was mocking and amazing at the same time. I was very clear-minded during all this; I considered how ridiculous this all was, and how perhaps worried or concerned my friends would be if I tried to express to them how mindblown I was. In a passing thought, I mused how all the anti-psychedelic propaganda I've had foisted on me might have been wise warnings as I noted how distant was this unbelievably contorted, somewhat snide headfuck from the enlightening ego-dissolution I wished for. I spoke again, "It's the craziest thing..." and again my words were mimicked and timestretched in the goofy vocals of the insane music that filled the room. I had to turn it off -- I blindly (yet adroitly) switched chairs to reach the stereo and managed to stop the cd. Suddenly much of the madness switched off as well, and I felt the strong effects drop off. I was frightened, certainly humbled... and after about an hour, I was fascinated anew.

I've not attempted a breakthrough session since, but I've had more uncanny coincidences in my research of salvia. One morning I awoke with a strong urge to google "salvia atlanta news" and I discovered that a Georgia state legislator had just proposed a bill banning the plant after viewing the recent FOX expose. I immediately made a stockpile purchase from iamshaman.com for posterity. I have a cutting on its way and I plan to approach the plant from its more indigenous paths to get a clearer, more intuitive perspective on her realms, this time to be practiced in silence and darkness. I've greatly enjoyed reading the experiences on this forum, and I also sense that the calling I've felt towards this unique plant is a phenomenon many of you share. I'll continue to report back to BOTH with any developments...

;)
st

[Lowlight]

Hi there,

"I have a cutting on its way and I plan to approach the plant from its more indigenous paths to get a clearer, more intuitive perspective on her realms, this time to be practiced in silence and darkness. "

that is about as wise a thing as you can do. I have said many times before that 20x 40x etc are probably unusable in terms of actually trying to achieve anything of lasting value. Mazatec Shamans dont use such preparations. Thats not me knocking your experience by the way. Considering how little information there is on Salvia's proper use, it is inevitable that people will be inducted in such extreme ways. Maybe the Westen world needs that...

However, the safey of such stong extracts over time is totally unknown and is also the principle reason why it is making it into the news over the last couple of years. If it is banned it will almosly certainly be because of extracts.

I really hope you are able to move forward with your experiences. Check out the many threads on this site which deal with Salvia, many are very informative.

Peace

[stfrequency]

Thanks for replying, Lowlight. I tend to agree with your estimation of high potency extracts as perhaps being too intoxicating (and too briefly active) to be useful. Like I said, I came to those conclusions myself after pondering the history of it's usage.

That leads us to a rather familiar argument in the discussion of psychedelics derived from sacramental plants, however -- does isolating the active chemicals through modern methods (and therefore significantly augmenting the potency) somehow poison their effects? In the same line of reasoning you pose towards salvia extracts, would you also argue that smoking DMT is somewhat less "proper" than engaging with it through ayahuasca? I am of two minds about this. Consider the indigenous tribes that instead ingest DMT in high-powered snuffs as a crude way of achieving full-on DMT blast-off. I realize this is an imperfect analogy, but it begs the same sort of questions...

How do you feel about tinctures as a means of working with salvia? I am also awaiting a small vial of this liquid exract, and I am excited to try it by this method as I hope it will be a more gentle and layered experience.

;)
st

[JackTheTripster]

hey guys. i have only experienced salvia once, but my comments are not specifically on this plant so i don't think it will be that important. I am reminded of Terence McKenna and what he has mentioned about living in high density areas and what i will expand to mean being under the influence of a multitude of mind-controlling influences such as the multiple streams of media we encounter as a daily fact. He was a strong advocate of taking heroic doses of psilocybin in order to "wake up" and realize the true nature of things. I think in similar regard the modern man is at such a different point in the evolution of his mind and in his awareness and consciousness of the true nature of the universe that maybe it is in his best interest to ingest heroic doses of psychedelics that would be used in smaller quantities or in different preparations than the native shamans used them. With this however also comes increased responsibility and precision. I doubt shamans had a scale to weigh out 5 grams or 1/4 g. or 250 mcg of substances, and so they were safe in their ingestion as long as they stayed within a ballpark amount. Chewing one more salvia leaf generally would not make their trip unmanageable. Even 5 more leafs would not do it. But then again, the culture and collective unconscious that surrounded them believed in and reinforced the beliefs of the understanding nature of things that these psychedelics brought on. We however, living in the modern world, are subject to belief structures which are directly in conflict with this view, and perhaps we need higher doses of medicine in order to properly experience these things first hand.

[maurizio]

That was interesting. Also because of the coincidences involved. I tried it for the first time this weekend and I just decided to check out this forum after registering some time last week. It was a surprised to see that the first post I saw was in regards to salvia.

Do you ever get the feeling like you're being dragged away? One thing that I noticed was that both my friend and I were both being dragged/pulled but the funny thing was I asked him what direction he was being pulled and he pointed to his right which was the exact same direction I was being pulled. Coincidence?

I also agree that if you're comfortable with your set/setting then you should probably try a bigger dose and break through. If you have little experience with psychoactive plants or LSD then I would suggest otherwise.

Its so sad when I think about the powers that be and their tight grip that has shackled us down to this material physical world.

[Lowlight]

Im not sure what to think about DMT in its pure form. The snuffs do contain along with other active ingredients so i guess there is a history of that kind of usage.

The problem i have with Salvia extracts is that ones in the region of 40x seem like total overkill, and the effects of that strength are unknown where dry/fresh leaf has been used for hundreds of years. The other thing is that i have a very low tolerance for most drugs so even 10x extract is essentially unusable to me. 5x has been good, but dry leaf smoked over a longer period of time has always been the best. It takes time and energy and makes you very tired (try 20 something deep inhalations of dry leaf smoke over an hour or so and you will see what i mean) but i have found this to be the best way. It seems his way that you earn the experience. I have written before that high strength extracts seem to be symptomatic of Western culture - "I want it all and i want it now!". Also it is these forms that are getting news attention and will most likely lead to its criminalization.

[Lowlight]

Forgot to say - Ive never tried the tincture bu i hear positive things about it. However i guess you could try chewing fresh leaves for a similar experience. This is probably the hardest method though as the leaves taste bitter and you need to chew for half an hour or so!

[stfrequency]

...but dry leaf smoked over a longer period of time has always been the best. It takes time and energy and makes you very tired (try 20 something deep inhalations of dry leaf smoke over an hour or so and you will see what i mean) but i have found this to be the best way.

I am intrigued... explain how this method works for you. I was under the impression that smoked salvia metabolizes very quickly, therefore I would think that "20 inhalations over an hour" would be like chasing your tail. It seems that you have found differently... how does this experience come on, what is the duration and effect?

;)
st

[Lowlight]

It is a long road, but a worthwhile one to travel.

A typical method would be as follows:

using dry leaves in a bong or pipe, inhale as much as possible whilst holding the flame tothe material, then hold for as long as possible (30 seconds plus is not bad).

I would then lie back in a dark room with very low level music on and with eyes closed. Let this experience ease you into the Salvia realm. Maybe then take another inhalation to ease you into it a bit more. At this stage you should be seeing (closed eye) full jungle imagery that pulsates with life and colour.

From that point on i usually start taking 3 inhalations one after each other (no breaths in between!), and then lying down whilst the experience unfolds. Once this mellows i go again for another 3-4, and so on. Each time the base level in your blood is a little higher so take off is easier and more powerful. So over an hour or so you can end up taking 20 something hits (in groups of 3 approx) and have a long experience that has troughs and crests as it were.

Using this method i have had full entity contact and communication amongst a bewildering number of other things. It is important to speak out to the things you see and experience. Ask questions, move around the topography, and if you see a geometric hole try and go down it (unless it feels wrong to do so).

I hope at least some of the above is useful to you. Like i said it is very exhausting because if the amount of smoke and the emotional journey you undergo, but it is worth it. Also i must repeat that i have a very low tolerance so it is usually not very hard for me to get such experiences from dry leaves alone. Others may try the above with dry leaves and get nothing but a faint buzz. You need to find your level and work from there. Maybe 5x mixed with dry leaf would be a good way to go for hardheads, but anymore than that and you are probably not 'built' or 'hardwired' for Salvia as it were. It is not for everyone as many will attest. Patience, time and will power are the main things needed.

peace and good luck

[stfrequency]

very cool, thanks for elaborating. another question -- do you prefer this prolonged smoking method to chewing or quid?

;)
st

[Lowlight]

I have pretty much always smoked leaf rather than chew. The one time I properly chewed i could not manage it more than 20 odd minutes and i only experienced a light buzz and very mild closed eyes impressions. I hope to try this again, hopefully with more will power to get through all the chewing. Another possibility I hope to try is to both smoke and chew as this should boost the experience considerably if it was done correctly.

I should be surfing the topographies tonight, so i better get prepared!

untill next time...

peace

[stfrequency]

A couple of developments for those interested... I guess I'm using this thread as a trip diary at this point, so pardon the length and detail...

My roommate and I decided to smoke salvia last night. I'd had the thought after reading about Lowlight's method, and my roomie mentioned later in passing that he was thinking of smoking that evening, so it felt right. That is, until it came down to it. There were some kind of foreboding elements to the evening that I ignored, but which came back to me when I made it to bed to mull things.

Firstly, we decided to purchase a water pipe to make things a little less harsh -- plans were to hit the late-night sex shop downtown for an afterhours paraphrenalia purchase. This is just a really negative place to even pass through for a few minutes, what with the seedy neighborhood and sexual deviants loitering around the back door entrance to the porno viewing booth. I felt dirty and a little off-kilter in general driving away, but the ball was in motion to go through with our plans.

My sense of unease must've continued buzzing quietly in the background, but I wasn't very aware of it. As we discussed how to accomplish our session, I soon decided that it was more appropriate to sit and help my roommate with his rather than take one myself. We followed Lowlight's suggested method of several bowls of dry leaf smoked often over a long period, but he was having a lot of trouble getting results. I periodically added very small amounts of 20x (from iamshaman.com) to help nudge him along, but there was no sort of breakthrough. All the while, my girlfriend was occupying herself at a friend's house and I was a little nervous about her imminent arrival -- I chalked this up to not wanting to disturb the setting we'd established. After about an hour, she called and I invited her to come over. By the time she'd arrived, I'd finally decided to sample a little leaves myself, and the gentle but noticeable hypnagogic imagery had only begun to set in when I stumbled to answer the door. She left us alone, and I took another small hit. To my amazement, I began to feel hints of the same twisted headspace that I've discussed in an earlier post above, the experience of my head being stretched. But very significant elements of that previous ordeal were newly revealed to me, and I was excited to be able to recall them in clearer detail--I'll elaborate this shortly.

From the time my girl arrived, I really felt awkward, kind of annoyed even. She left us alone in the living room, but I couldn't block out her presence. I only smoked a small bit more, attempting to meditate, before I suddenly felt ill-tempered and the weather outside began to grow darker and blustery. The loud rustling of trees near the window irked me strangely, and I stepped out the front door for a moment to feel the wind. As soon as I did, some creepy guy popped out of the creepy convenience store across from my house (I live in a poorer area of Atlanta) and began walking towards me in the lonely street. I jumped back in, said "fuck it" and joined my lady in the bed. The sky opened up to a moody, thunderous storm. I felt more troubled and embittered than before as I labored to express to her the remembered elements of my cabin trip.

Bear with me on this, it's quite strange:

I recalled the early moments of the explosion, when I came to and began to sense my reality unhinge in a very cartoonesque and surreal way. It was as if an entity began to squish itself out of all the matter in the room--tables, lamps, walls. It resembled something of an animated alligator or lizard, with a bright yellow-green chest and a darker green face, big saucer eyes of white with black pupils. I wasn't conscious of it as a true "other" being, but I did feel as if there was a hidden presence behind the curtain effecting my delusions - I sensed the spirit or essence of the plant at work I suppose. This reptile image wasn't continuously prominent, but I noticed it clearly towards the beginning. What was more surreal and unsettling was how it was tessellated and began cartwheeling up and in an arc across the ceiling to the opposite side of the room, twisting itself languidly through the dense matter and merging in three dimensions with the next object in my perspective... something like the Escher drawings of the symmetric gnomes comes to mind. In this manner, things began to be yanked apart and disintegrated. As the entity groped its way through these objects, their solidity gave way and things were fluidly stretched apart or contorted in this maddening, cartwheeling pattern that cycled in time to the 4/4 beat of the kick drum in the music. I remember something like each thud of the drum at the end of a musical phrase synching with the full rotation of an arm or face of the creature clambering through the gooey furniture. Then I felt it happening to my head. I recall now having the distinct thought that I was almost being reprimanded for smoking this high-potency extract, as if the entity were saying "oh yeah? you want to know how twisted we can make things? here ya go buddy" -- I imagine that the weird "mocking" echo of my own words in the music is also reflective of this attitude.

So yeah -- I tried babbling this out to my girl, still feeling irritated in a way, and she let me know that she had been harboring feelings of worry and fear for me the entire evening. She asked me not to use salvia anymore -- she said she felt it was sinister. A lot of this comes out of her bad experience with the nasty Club 13 extract (the same stuff I used in the cabin) and her relative ignorance on the plant outside of our conversations. I expressed to her that I had now gone through a more compassionate vendor and was being careful to approach salvia with a clearer intent. Still, she felt that the plant's spirit was somewhat of a wicked temptress -- "she lures you in and fucks with you."

This gave me pause for a moment. There is something about salvia's realm, from the limited and mostly improper encounters I've had, that feels brooding and unnatural. Many accounts and musings I've researched have mentioned that salvia is not kind to certain people, and may seem capricious or vindictive. Still, I feel that I've been called to her, and sharing thoughts and stories with other psychonauts has convinced me that it doesn't have to be this way. I am disappointed that my slight return to the plant only recalled the contemptuous experience I'd had before -- but the session was certainly not right to begin with. I'll revisit her again, with a clean slate and a clear intent.

Please respond with any thoughts...

http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/symmetry-bmp/E21.jpg

;)
st

[Lowlight]

Hi there,

Very interesting post SF. I cant respond right now due to time constraints, but i will try later tonight. If not then, then i will reply to you properly tommorrow,

until then

Lowlight

[Lowlight]

At last i have time to reply!

A water pipe should be a good tool for SD, i have just purchased one my self. Remember to have a powerful lighter - like a turbo lighter - as this will vaporize more of the salvinorin.

It sounds very much like you were not fully in the mood for the experience. It is easy for fear/uneasiness to carry over into the trip. If it doesnt feel right then maybe best to wait until you feel ready and have the right atmosphere. It is a shame your girlfriend turned up half way through - that is only going to interrupt the events. I do all i can to make sure i will not be disturbed - even music in another room can affect the trip so this can be hard to do sometimes. I agree with you about the unnaturalness of the Salvia realm. This is something that always strikes me if you enter it a little deeper. Though i would use the world 'alien' rather than unnatural. Not alien in the sense of 'the greys' but rather alien in that it is ordered/intelligent but operating in ways extremely unknown to humans. That is the usually impression i get. Lesser SD experiences (a couple of hits of dry leaf) often give me very natural experiences - wonderful jungle/forest imagery constantly moving and teeming with energy. The alien-ness comes in when i go deeper. I must say that if you are lucky enough to have full entity contact and communication the character of the experience chages again to be both natural and alien - something akin to 'holiness' is how i would describe it.

Personally i am intending to go as deep as i can over the next few months, and am hoping the water pipe will help facilitate this.

Im surprised your friend did not get some decent results with the multiple dose method, especailly since you were putting some 20x in there with the leaf. Im not sure what to suggest - Ive never heard of people not responding to such a high powered extract. Maybe SD is not for them? Have they had breakthroughs with it before? If so may be go back to that technique if it is a viable and respectful one. Maybe try chewing and then smoking? Are you sure the inhalations were full 'real' ones as it were. I remember thinking i had taken a proper hit when i first tried it, but its not the case unles you are basically nearly choking on the smoke and really struggling to hold it in. Though this may be different with the water pipe as it cools the smoke.

[stfrequency]

Are you sure the inhalations were full 'real' ones as it were. I remember thinking i had taken a proper hit when i first tried it, but its not the case unles you are basically nearly choking on the smoke and really struggling to hold it in.

This could be it. We bought a rather dinky little waterpipe with a tiny bowl... very difficult to get a large volume of smoke out of it. A couple of times he got a really heavy hit and gagged a bit, and it was after these that he started to feel something. I suppose I'll have to splurge once more on a proper pipe to do it right... As for the 20x, I was really only using a little -- I found that even with these strong extracts, some people don't feel anything from an initial amount, even if it seems adequate. The second or third similarly sized portion, however, truly breaks you through. That's why I'm kind of veering away from this method -- there's no real middle ground to work with...

;)
st

[sacha]

It really helps to hold your breath for as long as you can, and then some, till you start feeling a bit dizzy from lack of oxygen. Apparently the slight lack of oxygen has a potentiating effect (maybe vasodilation in the brain) because at any point during the Salvia experience, the effect can be re-revved up somewhat by prolonged breath-holding.

"there's no real middle ground to work with..."

It's not just lack of middle ground. Salvia is notoriously unpredictable as far as correlation between dosage levels and effect levels. The same dosage can give very different effects in different sessions, or a lighter dosage one time might have stronger effect than a heavier dose another time. In general, though, it goes in the direction of ever increasing sensitivity. Some people become so sensitive to Salvia's effects that smoking pot with no Salvia at all can send them into Salvia space.

[reluctantshaman]

I find some peoples insistence on 'authentic' use of entheogens quite offputting and at times very restrictive.

If you have to bang on about how 'original' indians use this or that, then you shouldn't be using anything at all, as you are more than likely not an original indian yourself (if someone is, don't reply, I am generalizing).

My objection is based on many thoughts and considerations, and I will reiterate a few:

- Shamanistic belief oftentimes states that the plants are teachers, and will instruct you in their use.

I have yet to have Salvia tell me she is displeased with my use of 10x

Further, different uses result in different effects. Different dimensions to explore, different metaplanes to travel to.

- Usage and ritual are cultural in nature in many cases

We have lost our archaic roots, so we need to recreate them. However, one great advantage that animism/shamanism has is that they are not as dogmatized and thus far more dynamic then for example the monotheistic cultures.
That should also include adapting the methods to our needs. As long or as reverence and respect are still given, I see no problem with using extracts

- Our physical metabolism and physiology is decidedly different to someone that has lived in a natural, organic environment. Give a standard aspirin to many indigeneous people, and you will find it works far more effectively.

- Lastly, don't look at every thing written by McKenna, Khorne, Horner (or Daniel ;) ) as dogma. Do what works for yourself. McKenna repeatdely said he was not sure himself about many things.

Anyway, just my 0.5 cents worth

ta

reluctant shaman