Traditional Philosophy

[michael heany]

I'm wondering: it seems to me that some of these drugs, DMT in particular, seem to have such transformative power that the current prevalent rational materialism paradigm can be rejected. Does this mean that the ontological and epistomological insights of the great philosophers, who aimed for completenesss in their view of the world, must now be rejected, since their views must now be seen as only partially true (at best)?

For people who have used these paradigm- shifting drugs: would you say that the great philosophers (Plato, Locke, Kant, Wittgenstein, etc.)would have realized a need for big and even complete revisions in their work, had they experienced DMT?

[daniel]

Good question - I definitely wonder the same thing myself. DMT certainly would have been a huge thing for them to experience and think about. Some philosophy seems better suited to psychedelics than others - the shadows on Plato's cave prefigures the "matrix" in a sense. But Plato may well have tried some psychedelic at the Eleusinian Mysteries.

The essential Wittgenstein idea that "the limits of my language are the limits of my world" is given a new tweak by DMT and other psychedelics - as the shamanic perspective is that the world is actually made out of language, and therefore stories and myths are primal and initiatory events. The myth we weave about the world actually creates the world. Also, some of Heidegger makes more sense after LSD - the idea that the tool also shapes the tool user, for instance.

Another way to look at this might be to note that it was the particular karma and place of these modern European philosophers to be deprived of the DMT flash. According to Steiner, the development of rational, empirical cognition was necessary for human development, and it could only be done at the time when humanity had been deprived of access to higher realms. Steiner says that now, the task of contemporary humanity is to use their strong Egos and rational thinking power to work their way back into the spiritual realms. Having descended all the way into matter and materiality, we are now headed back upwards, towards the spirit. Paradoxically, the higher impulse represented by Christ could only enter the earth when humanity was completely meshed in the material world.

I didn't read Steiner's work until I had almost finised my book, but in a sense I think this is what I have been trying to do - use rationality to comprehend these other realms. Steiner also offers meditation systems to reach the spiritual worlds without psychedelics, which is safer but slower.

[K.J]

This may be better suited for another thread; if so, I apologize. Daniel, can you expand on the following?

Daniel: "Steiner also offers meditation systems to reach the spiritual worlds without psychedelics, which is safer but slower."

What, in your belief, makes the educated use of entheogens unsafe?

Peace,

Jeremy

[daniel]

Misterbeanz writes: "What, in your belief, makes the educated use of entheogens unsafe?"

The best answer is read my book - especially the last part - and then we will talk.

In a sense there are different dangers for the "ignorant" and the "educated" user. The ignorant user may have a disorienting bad trip. The educated user may be drawn into situations that are a bit like occult traps. Like Zoe7, you might get invited to have sex with a succubus, but in return you might have to part with a chunk of your soul.

[K.J]

Daniel,

First, I want to say that I have read your book; twice now in the last 2 weeks. I find it to be a wonderful read.

It seems like you interpret my posts as confrontational, and I want to say that this isn't my intention. I'm just probing for more depth into your thoughts beyond what I found in the book.

I think you're definitely on track with your comment that there are different types of danger depending on your personal experience and knowledge of entheogens.

Can you be specific as to what you found personally dangerous? Not in the beginning, but after you were more experienced and knowledgeable?

Jeremy

[daniel]

Jeremy: "Can you be specific as to what you found personally dangerous? Not in the beginning, but after you were more experienced and knowledgeable?"

Well, the chapter on DPT is one aspect of it- the other aspect I discuss at the conclusion, about messages received over and over again in dreams. Look what happens to many people with ketamine: They get seduced into feeling they have power over an intensely fantastic inner reality - yet often they become addicted to the glamour of this imaginal narrative, and in some cases they actually die.

If there are other "other entities" out there, as I theorize to be the case, then some of them are unsavory, trying to utilize human beings to enter this realm. If we fall for it, we lose our agency.

There is also the seduction of "black magic," or ego trips and power trips, or placing too much belief in one's personal power. Shamans say with ayahuasca it takes much less work to learn how to kill than it does to cure. That is why you need balance to be a shaman. How many people in our culture have achieved real balance?

[K.J]

Daniel: "If there are other "other entities" out there, as I theorize to be the case, then some of them are unsavory, trying to utilize human beings to enter this realm. If we fall for it, we lose our agency."

Agreed. And where do you feel one should start in their search for the abilities needed to protect themselves from unsavory entities in other dimensions?

Jeremy

[daniel]

Jeremy: "And where do you feel one should start in their search for the abilities needed to protect themselves from unsavory entities in other dimensions?"

Ack, what do I know?

First of all, I suppose you should recognize that these "entities" of the imaginal realm, whether or not they have independent existence, are also aspects of one's inner self - products of one's own particular karma. I think actually Steiner gives a good way of understanding this process in "How to Know Higher Worlds." He feels that internal development and ethical development is crucial before dealing with "spiritual beings." He says at a certain level of work the mind actually splits into three distinct areas - thinking, willing, and feeling. You can learn to separate these domains so that you no longer confuse them, as most people do all the time.

In another book he suggests that the bee hive is actually an example of an extradimensional conciousness split up into separate but integrated units in this dimension, and this gives us some sense of what human consciousness will be like in future epochs. The areas of thinking willing, feeling will actually become as distinct entities as the separate types of bees working in a hive.

[K.J]

Daniel: "First of all, I suppose you should recognize that these "entities" of the imaginal realm, whether or not they have independent existence, are also aspects of one's inner self - products of one's own particular karma."

This resonates with my experiences. I have yet to meet another entity (other than the one that Huxley refers to as Mind At Large. I suppose I should also count the spirit of the substance itself) that I felt was not another aspect of myself. Of course, I have yet to experience DMT or DPT (my experiences are limited to psilocybin, cannabis, LSD, MDMA and salvia).

Daniel: "Steiner gives a good way of understanding this process in "How to Know Higher Worlds." He feels that internal development and ethical development is crucial before dealing with "spiritual beings."

I agree with this completely. I am working on this myself, and I understand it to be integral to productive experiences with entheogens.

Jeremy

[sidecross]

Originally posted by michael heany:
I'm wondering: it seems to me that some of these drugs, DMT in particular, seem to have such transformative power that the current prevalent rational materialism paradigm can be rejected. Does this mean that the ontological and epistomological insights of the great philosophers, who aimed for completenesss in their view of the world, must now be rejected, since their views must now be seen as only partially true (at best)?

For people who have used these paradigm- shifting drugs: would you say that the great philosophers (Plato, Locke, Kant, Wittgenstein, etc.)would have realized a need for big and even complete revisions in their work, had they experienced DMT?Yes, this is an excellent question, and the same question could be asked about what would be the impact be on philosophy concerning the revelations in quantum mechanics and astrophysics.

Philosophy can no longer be seen as an isolated study. If it is to continue and not just be an artifact it must entangle itself with not only psychedelics, but also all of human knowledge and experience.

If knowledge is time dependent, that is knowledge being part of the fabric of curved space-time, then looking back on past philosophy the inquirer must see its knowledge as part of that past.

One of psychedelic's attributes is its immediate penetration of the present regardless of how the mind interrupts it.