God Possibility/Psychedelic Theory

[Xael]

Well, a friend of mine came up with a theory. It's very basic. Pretty general, and probably has been thought of before, but it interested me, and helped me pile some questions up to think about.

Basically, he started by telling me an obvious fact; there really isn't any such thing as new energy. Energy is just reused. Then, he referred to the Big Bang Theory, and basically said that the orb of energy that existed before the bang, was God. The energy itself, was what we could call God. As the theory goes, this orb of energy exploded, creating the universe as we know it. How a small orb of energy could create so much seems puzzling. My friends idea seems to be a way to describe this.

With this in mind, he states that everything is God. We all have God in us. Everything is made up of this energy, as it is what everything came from, which might be a way of describing how some say that everything is conscious to a certain degree. We are all made up of God, and thus, as Bill Hicks once said, "...all matter is mearly energy (in this case God) condensed through a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life in only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves". He very much believes this concept.

He went on to mention that somehow, this has to do with fate also. He said that there are certain things that, by fate, you are going to come across. Some things are pretty much set out for you, but it's a matter of which path you take, and how you deal with it that counts. Thus, free-will and fate co-exist.

I've been thinking a lot about astrology lately, and how it may have an effect on our actions, as Gurdjieff might have proposed. Not in the sense of popular astrology and it's zodiac non-sense, but in the sense of energy being manipulated by movement of the planets and moons, as well as their alignment with the sun. Despite many claims made by hard-nosed skeptics, it still remains impossible to rule astrology as a farce, in the sense that I am talking about anyway. I wonder if my friend's theory might have something to do with this, or if I can add his theory to that of the astrological one?

In a somewhat related topic, I heard that recently, physicists concluded that there are at least two planes of reality. Umm...why isn't everyone flipping out about that? Why isn't everyone talking about it? Why dosen't anyone know about it? I'd say that's a pretty big deal.

I just found it interesting how "psychedelic theorists", for lack of better lable, have been saying this for quite some time, saying that there are multiple planes of reality, and that the worlds they see when using..say..dmt, could very possibly be "real", and there is no real way to prove otherwise. Could it be that it is possible to prove the reality of these worlds? Can science really be a valid tool to figure it out, or is it not at all relevent to such a study?

Also, as a sidenote, in my friends theory, he said that through this energy, which he calls God, "The Plan" or "His Will" is being carried out, which I think is how he included the fate and free-will angle. In reading into experiences some have had with Psilocybin mushrooms and other such substance, some have talked with beings that said all that is happening around us is completely natural, and that such progression can only be expected.

If one was to put together all of this jargon above, as a very messy and unprovable theory, could it be said that they are all the same? These outwordly beings, whose worlds may be "real" on a different plane, know what is going on in our reality, and say it's the way things are and are going to happen, in accordance with "The Plan" set forth by the "God" energy, which may or may not be carried out by the astrological movements and properties of the planets and moons? Is this all one theory? Is it all related? This is very interesting, and I really don't know what to think. It's kind of mind boggling.

I'd love some thought on this. If there are any things within this that seem unreasonable, or if I'm wrong with my facts, please say so. Over the past year or so, I have completely destroyed my sense of ego, in realizing how little of it was valid. I destroyed all of my theories, opnions, and other such things, because I realized that they were invalid in the sense that they were either completely subjective, or in the grand scheme of things, could not be proven, or had nothing to do with the universe around me. I've been trying to put something new together. Something strong and very possible, and I'm wondering if I'm onto something here. I need feedback. Lots of it.

Please...do me a favor, and say something...

[ November 07, 2004, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Xael ]

[Humming]

Good theory. :D

Reality is holographic: every piece contains the whole.

As I was told in a booming telepathic voice the other night when I was awake in my dream (part of a Nietzsche quote that I have up in my room), "THE CENTER IS EVERYWHERE."

[ November 07, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by Xael:
...he started by telling me an obvious fact; there really isn't any such thing as new energy. Energy is just reused. Then, he referred to the Big Bang Theory, and basically said that the orb of energy that existed before the bang, was God. The energy itself, was what we could call God. As the theory goes, this orb of energy exploded, creating the universe as we know it. So at the Big Bang, did God cease to exist? Are we but dying cinders in a universe sinking into dark entropy? Is the yearning for divine oneness a sort of cosmic nostalgia for something lost forever?

[nanouk]

"So at the Big Bang, did God cease to exist? Are we but dying cinders in a universe sinking into dark entropy? Is the yearning for divine oneness a sort of cosmic nostalgia for something lost forever?"

dragonfly, those are the feelings of faith we collectively are beginning to re-kindle...people are beginning to seek the 'One', or 'True Will' again, before the last three generations, there wasn't a need to search for guidance, every street had a story teller...and wise man or woman...
todays anymosity (even amongst family)leaves us with books, which i, in a way find falling a thousand times shorter than the spoken word...

love and respect,

nanouk

[craazyman]

Originally posted by Xael:
Could it be that it is possible to prove the reality of these worlds? Can science really be a valid tool to figure it out, or is it not at all relevent to such a study?
In my view this is one of the most relevant questions in relation to the entire spectrum of non-normal states of consciousness. As western rationalists we inevitably seek to understand things from a logical standpoint. We try to establish an analytical framework that demands precise definitions of the essential elements of a phenomenon and some sort of logic that governs the interaction of these elements and that produces predictable outcomes (i.e. the scientific method). I'm not especially well-read on the history of the occult, but I understand that the medieval alchemists, among others, attempted to catalogue the spirit/elemental world. Although I don't know if they ever reached a point where they could predict results and them observe them. I was recently reading Evan-Wentz's Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries, one of the better attempts at reporting some of these experiences, and it was remarkable the nearly Protean manifestations that seem to inevitably accompany the manifestations of these intelligences. It all seems utterly unpredictable and immune to any sort of choherent understanding. And now, today, we have the so-called Greys and bewildering variety of other alients--nordics, reptilians, etc. Along with crop circles, UFO, etc. It may be, as Daniel remarked in a post elsewhere and in relation to quantum phenomenon, that we simply haven't evolved a language capable of defining these things, as of yet. And lacking a language, we are somewhat burdened in our attempt to perceive and understand. I think we all naturally have an inarticulate, but deeply founded and probably almost unconscious, faith that the scientific method, if applied, will ultimately prove successful in explaining these things. The challenge will be creating definitions and designing experiments. The predicability of certain manifestations under various psychedelics is hopeful in that regard, but inconclusive. While one can never prove a negative, it may be that, as you say, science may not be relevant. We may be dealing with something that is essentially artistic in nature, that is, creative at sort of a foundational level and that can only be explained in terms of the structure of its manifestations--sort of like trying to "explain" a symphony or a painting. One need only read art criticism to realize how hopeless that all is. It may also be that there's sort of a celestial cloaking device on these things that's part of the whole universe plan. I'm reminded of the line from the American poet Charles Bukowski, which I paraphrase, "I guess God meant it all like locks on doors."

[O Neil]

this is kind of off topic, thought id throw it out there anyway
i saw a program on PBS last week about string theory and where physicists have brought it to this point. it explains that beside our universe there are many others parallel which are alligned like a loaf of bread. outside of this there are two giant membranes that are wobbling and when they come into contact with one another they give off so much energy they create a big bang and another universe. without explaining anything in detail thats the gist of it. But then there's the quistion where do these giant membranes come from and what existed before them etc.
Existence it never ends.

[Rob P]

Hi O Neil~
This is already on the message board somewhere,
but here again is the PBS link where you can watch
the whole Elegant Universe online!...
Is that the show you were watching??
pretty interesting stuff isn't it??!!
seeya
r o b

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

[O Neil]

perhaps the causers/prime movers of these phenomena are of no material value. They may be higher forms of consciousness that no longer need to manifest materially (these powers/forces are higher up the hierarchy scales than we are)who knows maybe they were once souls that resided in human bodies and have continued on in the noosphere or the spirit of the earth if u shall and are trying to help us through these tough times of spiritual evolution. i've noticed that some of the crop circles are extraordinarily symmetrical, i wonder if there are any physicists studying their dimensions/proportions. If different fields of science, astrology etc. would work together who knows what they could come up with. But alas we're bound to the pyramid that is the thought of the past.

[sidecross]

Try reading Brian Greene’s new book The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality.

[O Neil]

hey rob b

i was up late last night all hopped up on coffee just strormin ideas and did'nt notice your post.
that is the same program i saw on PBS only i just caught the latter end of it. found it really interesting, when i was watching it i thought how great it would be if string theory kept on being confirmed one day physics would take place of the church. there would be no more god worth fighting wars over. No need to fear judgment of an all powerful god after death.
can anyone think of many pitfalls psychologically etc. if this were one day to be incorporated into the mainstream idealogies instead of the church.

[Buzz]

J.R.R. Tolkien, addresses the creation myth at the start of the Simarillian .
Iluvatar (God with a big G) was alone in the void. He gave birth to the Valor out of his thoughts, they sprung from his head.
Iluvatar gathered his children and started to sing a song, then he asked the Valor to sing with him. One of the Valor, more powerful than the rest, was Melkor. After a while, feeling jealous of his fathers power, Melkor changed the tune and began singing another song. And some of the Valor sang with him. The contradicting songs competed until Iluvator stopped. Then he sang another song. Again Melkor perverted it. And was followed by other Valors. When the songs stopped, Iluvator sang a third song, followed by Melkor's musical revolt yet again.

Then Iluvatar asked the Valor if they would like to see what they had created. At this point, the Valor had only been able to hear. So yes, they wanted to see the great work. Iluvator pulled back a veil and revealed a sphere floating in space (Earth). The Valor were awed by the sight. Then they witnessed the entire geological and evolutional process take place. They witnessed the harmony created by Iluvators song and the chaos caused by Melkor. Then the veil was closed. Seeing that some Valor were so struck by the beauty of the world Iluvator offered to let them descend and live in the world. Many did, unfortunately, so did Melkor.
But when they decended they found themselves in the beginning of the world.

The story goes on, but what is interesting to me is that Tolkien has explained string theory. and how the world came out of the sub-atomic void. In the PBS series, The Quantum Physics sub-atomic world is made up of vibrating strings. Those vibrations are music.

[ December 27, 2004, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Buzz ]

[*J*]

This conception has resonated among quite a few thinkers and artists over the years. The first time I encountered it was in my teens, in the form of Frank Zappa's theory of "The Big Note".

He brought this up in one form or another over the course of the decades; I don't know how familiar any of you are with his rather considerable ouvre, but he had a thing called "conceptual continuity", which was the orchestrated and multi-layered reoccurrence of seemingly random (and often absurd) themes over about 80 albums or so. As a teenager, I was obsessed with tracing these hidden but ultimately meaningless connections in his work --today, no longer in a cynical Zappa mindset but still very admiring, my perspective on them is totally different, and "conceptual continuity' seems to be an artistic reformulation of what we call 'synchronicity'.

Though he always claimed to be staunchly anti-drug, anti-mystical in fact, and to have never tried psychedelics, I suspect he was a closet experimenter -- either that or he was just naturally really psychedelically-minded and didn't need 'em. However, I happen to know that he said lots of things about his personal habits which simply weren't true. But I digress...

Here is a lyric sample I Googled on the Big Note:

Ah, that one again.
It's a little pig with wings.
I hear you've been having trouble with pigs and ponies!
It's very distraughtening.

Everything in the universe is, is, is made of one element,
which is a note, a single note.
Atoms are really vibrations, you know.
With your extensions of the BIG NOTE, everything's one note.
Everything, even the ponies.
The note, however, is the ultimate power,
but see the pigs don't know that,
the ponies don't know that.

You mean just we know that?

RIGHT!

Merry-go-round, Merry-go-round,
tu-tu-tu-tu tu-tu-tu tu-tu-tu

And they call that doing their thing.
Oh yeah? That's what doing your thing is!
The thing is to put a motor in yourself.

(Whatever drugs he was or wasn't on, the man was ahead of his time in many ways... and emotionally and psychologically stuck in gear, in many ways also.)

[Buzz]

J, i knew a girl in Louisiana who used to go to cocaine parties in Houston with Frank Zappa. This was back in the 70's.

He did claim to be non-druggy. He kicked Lowell George (and Billy Powell - I think) out of his 60's band The Mothers of Invention because he caught them smoking pot before a gig. They formed Little Feat .

Whatever, Zappa was a musical genius and an amazing guitar player. my favorite album of his is Shut Up and Play Your Guitar . I think his lyrics (though often funny) derived the music itself. There seemed to be a lot going on in his head. Interesting post about him J.

[daniel]

Two Nietzsche quotes:

In the "in-itself" there is nothing of "causal connections," of "necessity," or of "psychological non-freedom"; there the effect does not follow the cause, there is no rule or "law." It is we alone who have devised cause, sequence, for-each-other, relativity, constraint, number, law, freedom, motive, and purpose; and when we project and mix this symbol world into things as if it existed "in itself," we act once more as we have always acted - mythologically.

Indeed, what forces us at all to suppose that there is an essential opposition of "true" and "false"?Is it not sufficient to assume degrees of apparentness and, as it were, lighter and darker shadows and shades of appearance – different "values," to use the language of painters? Why couldn’t the world that concerns us – be a fiction? And if somebody asked, "but to be a fiction there surely belongs an author?" – couldn’t one answer simply: why? Doesn’t this "belongs" perhaps belongs to the fiction, too?

[nanouk]

hmmm...i've got to meditate on that one...

[Buzz]

or is it like that Zen saying about the mountain.
"first there is evil, then there is no evil, then there is."

[nanouk]

multidimensional universe, yes we're in it alright!

:D

[nanouk]

...regarding the 'god possibility'...yesterday i spotted the number plate of one of my neighbour's car, the last three letters read: "GUD", which is "GOD" translated into swedish, *lol* so it seems like i've got quite 'posh' neighbours!
:cool:

[*J*]

Wanted to slip in one more Zappa lyrical snatch while the topic is still going. Another song which has different signifigance to me now, and shows that Frank had his finger on the pulse of things...

From 'Inca Roads':

Did a vehicle
Come from somewhere out there
Just to land in the Andes?
Was it round
And did it have
A motor
Or was it
Something
Different

Did a vehicle
Did a vehicle
Did a vehicle
Fly along the mountains
And find a place to park itself

Or did someone
Build a place
To leave a space
For such a vehicle to land

Did a vehicle
Come from somewhere out there
Did a vehicle
Come from somewhere out there
Did the indians, first on the bill
Carve up the hill

Did a booger-bear
Come from somewhere out there
Just to land in the Andes?
Was she round
And did she have a motor
Or was she something different

[jtreg]

Well my impression of that Zappa track was that he was using covert recording techniques, some of which were almost certainly people tripping, babbling away with their own (I am getting sentimental about this as I used to talk this drivel myself) kind of nonsense!

We can hear this on Trout Mask Replica (Beefheart) as well as he produced this album, many more delightful examples

heh

[Halfglass]

Xael: This notion of everything is of the same source is what I've come to believe. Hinduism teaches this. Dragonfly's notion of a burt-out universe is what astrophysicists are saying these days, will happen. But we shouldn't be too worried about that, since it is also understood by physicists running particle colliders, that matter "pops" into and out of existence all the time. And then there's all that Dark Matter which must exist (or the universe wouldn't hold together as it does).

With these known facts in physics, the layperson, even before experiencing this oneness in santories and high dose trips, can see for themselves that the fabric of reality is "false' in a sense. So if one looked into the smallest of the small (in a burt out universe) one would come to the neucleus of an atom and find it's electron orbiting (30 feet out if the neucleus is the size of the head of a pin) and beneath that is the "Otherside" --another Big Bang going on maybe.

Eventually all the Dark Matter (which BTW there is more of 5 to one with visable matter) will drain away into black holes and gather for another Big Bang.

"We are God" (The realization that "We are IT!": when intuited or experienced in a flash during the psychedelic trip (or if you want to sit on a mat for ten years saying a mantra) is enlightenment. To experience it. To talk or read about it is to not truely know it.

[nanouk]

"We are God" (The realization that "We are IT!": when intuited or experienced in a flash during the psychedelic trip (or if you want to sit on a mat for ten years saying a mantra) is enlightenment. To experience it. To talk or read about it is to not truely know it.

Amen.

[daniel]

I think the problem is the difference between "states" and "traits," as Ken Wilbur puts it. You may get a flash of something approaching "enlightenment" (whatever that is) through a trip or some other sudden jolt, but the problem remains of converting that to a permanent trait, a constant condition that is helpful to yourself and others.

I think that the "enlightenment" then has to prove itself through the life that is lived after the flash. I had the fun experience recently of reading some of Muktananda's auto-bio, and finding myself so impressed at how he confidently described himself as "god-realized," then did a search for him on the Net and learned he was engaged in strange sexual practices with young Western women that sounded completely unsavory... so Muktananda had some powers, perhaps, but he had not integrated his own shadow. Incidentally for me it is not the sex that is necessarily wrong, if it is reciprocal - it is the dissimulations about it that make it repulsive. I I find Allen Ginsberg's candid attitude about these matters in the interviews collected in the book "Spontaneous Mind" to be very impressive and clear. Anyway, with "enlightenment" as with anything else, show me the life lived up to the ideal, and I will be suitably impressed.

[*J*]

How about Maharishi, the yogi who named Ram Dass? He seemed pretty 'ideal', in the context of that faith...

*J*

[Halfglass]

Daniel...this seems fair enough. It is an extemely hard thing to do (I've found) to not return to the mindset of old habits even after I have changed them outwardly. I was extremely impressed by Bagwan Rashaneesh's "The Art of Extasy" (all about conditioning etc.) only to hear later that he had started a cult dedicated to him, where his followers gave away their money and the women their bodies!

Also: what I mean by enlightenment is just that: To "see" firsthand our itness. I believe this is what the Buddhists are talking about--when the aha! moment comes in deep meditation. In my reading of Buddhism I see where some teachers wait for months and years for the "glow" of the monks body language to show the teacher that this moment has come for the monk. Great emphasis has been placed on the moment of enlightenment by some branches of Buddhism.

[daniel]

Manning,

Well, the Buddha didn't disappear when he became enlightened... although he did turn blue, grow large ears and a big bump on the top of his head (apparently there are 34 visible signs for recognizing a Buddha). So i do not think you would have to disappear either. In fact, you might be more here.

Halfglass,
I think you have to carefully discriminate between a moment of illumination, through meditation or psychedelics, and the sustained, steady state of "enlightenment" (I increasingly prefer using the term the "unconditioned state" as it has less cliche baggage attached to it). In the 1960s, many people had the illumination experience and wrongly assumed they were "enlightened," becoming gurus and then inflicting their unintegrated shadow material on their followers.

Bagwan Rajneesh is a fascinating figure... there was a lot more going on there then a simple rip off, to be sure. I see him and Chogyam Trungpa as similar; they realized the only way to get into the diseased Western consciousness of the 1970s was to take on the coyote role, the trickster, to open up the minds of people through the means that would work at that point in time. Trungpa I think was almost a tragic figure in that he may have sacrificed his own development in order to come down to the level of the post-Beats etc. who needed him.

[daniel]

how do you know it is not the exact opposite? That only when you were "fully enlightened," would you be absolutely physically present?

[Halfglass]

Daniel, thar sounds right. They certainly played the trickster role. In fact Rajneesh (thanks for spelling it right--I was too lazy to look for the book) says over and over how, even as you read his words, it wasn't what he was really trying to say, and that most people would not understand anything he wrote until they got into meditaion seriously and for a long time. He also said the mantra had to be thrown eventually too, as it was in the end a prop and a hindered the way to the final goal. Also: in my "Explorer" under "The Spiral" is what I'm talking about. I've never been the same since I had that experience. (In the end the door shut and I've never been able to return--but it dosn't matter--I saw it.)

Manning: that sounds like don Juan's stuff...the body leaving physically. (BTW; I like Daniel's "unconditioned state" better than enlightened. But I am still talking about an intense MOMENT when I refer to being enlightened. Whatever I may sound like (like a mad egotripper) I've had it. If what I experienced isn't what the Buddhists are talking about, I must be out in front of them.)

But about becoming bodyless, I can't say, I'm doubtful though. I did however have a feeling more than once, that because I had made these discoveries, synchronicities would lead to my death sooner than it may have come about, due to my probing, (and by default finding out enough that my reason for being here had been removed).

This was bolstered by a change in a dream I used to have. It is a common dream I think everyone has, where you're still in school and you can't find your locker or classroom. Or you were supposed to have graduated but you're still enrolled. I used to have that dream all the time. In the last few years, when I have it again, it's graduation time, or only a few weeks left untill, and the fact that I can't find my place (where I'm supposed to be etc.), dosn't bother me anymore and I walk the halls indifferent to being found out.

[nanouk]

maybe the term 'bodiless' smile.gif is fullfilled when one's body, or material life doesn't feel like a burden anymore?

[nanouk]

the marriage of heaven and hell...
:D

[Isaiah Mpski]

Be here now.

[daniel]

Manning,

Whatever illumination or "enlightenment" one might attain, there is still karma to be lived out in this body and this situation - but the point would be, I think, that you would be approaching the karmic baggage from a different angle - you would not be immersed in it the way most people are, you would in a sense be detached from it, aware that it was a kind of "program" of patterned responses and relationships that you were working to bring to proper fulfillment in this life, now. Goswami discusses this nicely in Self-Aware Universe. It is the attachment to the situations that is the problem, not the situations themselves. As I said before, it is perhaps only when you are "acting without action," that you can begin to act properly, without getting pulled into a lot of dramas and other people's head-trips.

I am sure the Buddha still had annoying cousins to deal with and suchlike.

[Humming]

This has become an interesting discussion; what is enlightenment?

I remember the first time that I tripped mushrooms, and how the day afterwards I was sitting in a hot tub at work, telling my friends that I had been enlightened. They disagreed, but I was sure that I had enjoyed the most illuminating experience of my life.

The idea of the 'unconditioned' state is quite useful. I have come to the same understanding of enlightenment, trying to place it in the context of Buddhism with a discussion of karma. Over the summer I read a book by the Dhali Llama and he translated the word "karma" as "action" and I experienced satori right then, in my white plastic lifeguard's chair. Since then, the integration of that moment, and all of the collected moments of karmic realization, has not been an easy task. The path will wind in light and darkness until my life expires and I choose another body.

Enlightenment is simply the cessation of creating evil karma, and the devotion to compassion that comes in the wake of realizing the holographic, inner/interconnectivity of reality which links you inextricably to everything and everyone. I am in love with the whole world, as I love myself.

Do I exist in that place and mindset all the time? Yes, and no. There are people who annoy me, although I can love them and I always try to help them. There are forms of media which I choose to indulge in, realizing that they are violent and ultimately degrading to my cause of freedom. The paradox dilemna is that I enjoy art, and since I gaze at the spark of divinity in any extant creation I think, "why not?" But I know that on some level, I am being conditioned to act through the unconditioned art that I let into me. To attempt to perfect the unconditioned state would mean living in a cave and never talking to anyone other than the spirits.

The film "I Heart Huckabees" was a good rendition for me of this interplay between the divine state of fulfillment, and being sucked back into the needless dramas and silly nonsense of everyday life. But of course, if I was living in a cave, I would never have seen that film. ;)

I feel that I was born into this body, in this time, in this place, to utilize this gift to the greatest extent, and also to experience this time and place. So as a creature living in a culture that creates art, I try to experience the culture and enjoy it as a microcosm of the divine.

And the question, "what changes after enlightenment?" is a rather silly one. I love the Zen parable (to paraphrase): Before enlightenment, a man chops wood. After enlightenment, a man chops wood. There need be no change, because there already exists the perfect actualization of infinite love within. Enlightenment is not a process which changes you, but rather a revealment of what is already there.

What a wonderful discussion. I will try extra hard to radiate my luminent divine today, and to expose it with joy in others! :D

[ January 06, 2005, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[Isaiah Mpski]

Old pond,new frog;old frog,new pond,Splash.

Mpski 2001

[nanouk]

hummmmmmm....

[Isaiah Mpski]

Nanouk,you're crazy.
Your Laird

[Gift Horse]

Daniel wrote;

"I think you have to carefully discriminate between a moment of illumination, through meditation or psychedelics, and the sustained, steady state of "enlightenment" (I increasingly prefer using the term the "unconditioned state" as it has less cliche baggage attached to it). In the 1960s, many people had the illumination experience and wrongly assumed they were "enlightened," becoming gurus and then inflicting their unintegrated shadow material on their followers"

I recognise myself in your words Daniel.
I think alot of us have had illumined experiences from all different sources and then we go on to make assumptions and stories about it. Then we sometimes inflict our views onto others. I don't think we have to be gurus to make that mistake.
Miguel Ruiz in The Four Agreements calls this trying to plant your parasite in the mind of another.

[daniel]

manning: "What you describe sounds remarkably like a course of successful psychotherapy."

hmm. don't think so. most psychotherapy seems geared to getting you to function better on a certain level, have "healthier" relationships, etc. It is not really oriented towards attaining an unconditioned state of permanent nondualism, unless i have been missing something.

also the pre/post-enlightenment chopping of wood, that might be the case in an earlier simpler society that was not actively engaged in destroying its biosphere. I think continuing to "cut wood" or drive your SUV to your job cutting rats apart for Monsanto or whatever people do is not really applicable to this present situation. Nor is retreating to a cave in the mountaintops.

i suppose i would see "enlightenment" in our current situation as meaning you had to utilize your new point of view to find the pressure points or acupuncture points on a societal level that will help create a new context and new civilization. As Nietzsche said, there is no doer separate from doing - the deed creates the doer as an afterthought.

Rereading Nietzsche lately, I am by the way wondering to what extent he approached this "unconditioned state"... even the idea of going beyond good and evil is resonant to me. There are certain unfortunate locks in his thinking such as the idea of an eternal return of the same rather than the Mayan idea of a spiral that returns but always at a different, deeper level. However he is just incredible in many respects. Cruel, at times, but a redemptive and cleansing form of cruelty - like a good punk rock song.

"beyond good and evil" - i would take that to be similar to the Jungian idea that you have to integrate the shadow, recognize and work with it, rather than thinking you can avoid or banish it as much new age stuff and psychotherapy seems to aim for. A lot of new age and psychotherapy-type stuff is a prime example of the workings of "bad conscience" or "ressentiment" as Nietzsche defines it in Geneology of Morals and Beyond Good and Evil.

[daniel]

also humming, i don't think there is such a thing as "evil karma."

karma may seem heavy - but it is not really like a weight, according to Namkai Norbu in his book Dzogchen. It is more like the darkness in a room - when you turn on the light, the darkness is gone.

The buddhists texts are full of stories of ruffians and gangsters who were "switched on" by a master and attained the "unconditioned state"... what happened to their "evil karma"? Light came in and the darkness vanished.

Here are a few Nietzsche quotes to ponder:

"Something might be true while being harmful and dangerous in the highest degree. Indeed, it might be a basic characteristic of existence that those who know it completely would perish, in which case the strength of a spirit should be measured according to how much of the "truth" one could still barely endure – or to put it more clearly, to what degree one would require it to be thinned down, shrouded, sweetened, blunted, falsified. "

"You want, if possible – and there is no more insane "if possible" – to abolish suffering. And we? It really seems that we would rather have it higher and worse than ever. Well-being as you understand it – that is no goal, that seems to us an end, a state that soon makes man ridiculous and contemptible – that makes his destruction desirable.
The discipline of suffering, of great suffering – do you not know that only this discipline has created all enhancements of man so far? That tension of the soul in unhappiness which cultivates its strength, its shudders face to face with great ruin, its inventiveness and courage in enduring, persevering, interpreting, and exploiting suffering, and whatever has been granted to it of profundity, secret, mask, spirit, cunning, greatness – was not granted to it through suffering, through the discipline of great suffering?"

But there is no doubt at all that the evil and unhappy are more favored when it comes to the discovery of certain parts of truth, and that the probability of their success here is greater – not to speak of the evil who are happy, a species the moralists bury in silence. "

"The noble type of man experiences itself as determining values; it does not need approval; it judges, "what is harmful to me is harmful in itself"; it knows itself to be that which first accords honor to things; it is value-creating. Everything it knows as part of itself it honors: such a morality is self-glorification. In the foreground there is the feeling of fullness, of power that seeks to overflow, the happiness of high tension, the consciousness of wealth that would give and bestow; the noble human being, too, helps the unfortunate, but not, or almost not, from pity, but prompted more by an urge begotten by excess of power. The noble human being honors himself as one who is powerful, also as one who has power over himself, who knows how to speak and be silent, who delights in being severe and hard with himself and respects all severity and hardness. "

[Isaiah Mpski]

Far is the way.

Mpski 2005

[Halfglass]

Daniel: I really like the first one. How much truth might be enough to make living on this plane pointless? i think I was going there on my last post.

Something somewhat related: I was at a pow wow a few years back and I told an elderly Lakota woman about my teenage years when I shot alot of birds with BB guns, and how the thought of it repulsed me now. I said: "Those birds are gonna haunt me in the afterlife or what?"

She was perfectly serious when she gave me a ritual to do, (in the woods with sweetgrass and other doings...etc.). But what was most important was that I made my presense known to these animals I'd killed. The way she talked...I sensed that there seemed to be no sense of forgiveness or remorse in this, from either the birds or me. Just the fact that I had stopped at some point in my life and changed and been bothered by the memory of killing these birds was the point.

[nanouk]

what is your experience of the question, manning?
smile.gif
i believe it definately ripples out, one sows a seed, not all of them will germinate, but the success rate is quite good.

[ January 06, 2005, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Nanouk ]

[Lowlight]

Hey Daniel im glad to see you are rereading Nietzsche! He is the antidote to all the half assed new age philosophy that is doing the rounds.

Dont worry too much about the Eternal Recurrence tho, by the last years of his life he had rejected it as a reality (he tried to prove it earlier in his life) and instead saw it as a kind of tool to be applied before you act. kind of a guide to right action i.e. that right action is what you would want to come back to you forever.

Have you read Ecce Homo? that is a must if you havnt, it was his last book written just a month or so before he went insane.

Peace

Lowlight

[daniel]

lowlight,

yes ecce homo rocks the house.

manning,

did you understand my point about psychotherapy?

[Charlie]

Daniel: It’s been many moons since I read Nietsche, but I always took the term “Beyond Good and Evil” to mean the superceding of ordinary cultural moors, to be replaced by a new definition of values, as espoused in the Overman. A related bridge between these ideas is the concept of The Great Health.

Nietsche personally suffered from poor health most of his life, but in his recuperative phases he must’ve had endorfin rushes where new-found physical vitality (kundalini?) fueled intense rushes of inspiration. He envisioned a physically and spiritually stronger race of men and women, which Hitler twisted into his own vision of the Aryan race.

Nietsche has a great disdain for the “common man” in the sense of a mob mentality, but at heart, he was really a utopian. This state of grace was portrayed in his epic poem, Thus Spake Zarathustra, which he claimed to be his crowning achievement. Personally, the prose was too dense for me; I never got through it. Supposedly it is an amalgam of many of his ideas…

As far as Ecce Homo: I think he was already facing insanity when he wrote it…there are some statements at the end that are clearly delusional. Reading that volume lead me to reject the idea that syphilis caused his insanity…the power and passion of his own ideas drove him over the edge. There is a hint in one of the phrases Daniel quotes: how much of the "truth" one could still barely endure. The man simply reached a point where he could not endure the weight of his own visions any longer…I am convinced of that.

[ January 07, 2005, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[Charlie]

On the topic of enlightenment:

I rather like Hummings definition as well; it was simply a poor choice of words to use the term “evil karma”, but I get the gist of his thinking.

“True” enlightenment, in the Zen texts I’ve read, occurs when there is no longer any realization or talk of it—it has been fully integrated as the natural state of being. For me, this is the point of Pure Existence.

The analogy of chopping wood is brilliant because it’s a simple, basic task that still requires precision and concentration. It's just a matter of how you interpret this "work."

If you are fully awake, you are experiencing that moment in it all of its delicious detail—the texture and weight of the ax in your hands, the smell of the wood, the intonation of cleaving lumber, the physical exertion of one's body, etc. There is truly nothing else in that moment.

[nanouk]

i love chopping wood... smile.gif

and weeding borders... smile.gif

and raking courtyards... smile.gif

...but i haven't done my washing up for a week!
...or two...
:eek:

[Lowlight]

It an interesting question over whether Nietzsche went mad through disease or his own thought. i kind of wish it was the latter because there is something almost heroic in it but i fear it was probably the former.

Zarathustra is dense to say the least, but he always wanted to say in 10 lines what evryone esle said in a book! i aim to attempt it again this year - it always seem to break me when i try to read it, its almost too powerful.

[Humming]

OK, Daniel: I've read Namkai Norbu's book, "The Crystal and the Way of Light" about Dzogchen. Is that the one you're referring to? I enjoyed it.

I agree that "good" and "evil" are products of the Western rationalist dualistic mind. However, I find it difficult to describe the concepts in other terms.

How is it possible to fully occupy the primordial, undifferentiated state all the time and live in the world? If interactions with society are always conditioning the mind, which I believe to be true, how is it possible to not create karmic ties? Wouldn't the act of living itself necessarily and inescapably create karmic ties? I've pondered this a lot since learning about Buddhism.

My last mushroom trip was all about karma, but I must say that I am still far from understanding of it. I embrace suffering in my own life, although I do not seek it out in a masochistic sense. I believe, as Nietzsche states, that "evil" and experiences of utter horror are necessary for growth. A friend recently asked me why I continue to tale the "heroic" dose of mushrooms if it's so painful in some ways. I told him that I do it because I feel that the pain has a purgative cleansing effect, and that it is ultimately worthwhile for me, for my self-evolution. I am reminded of a line from a Tool song, "I don't want it, I just need it: to breathe, to feel, to know about life." I have integrated the Shadow experiences: I've been to Hell, and internalized it, taken it in and made it a part of me, transmuting the poison as a shaman would, and eventually coming across to the other side with new gifts of healing and love.

Could we say that the unconditioned state is a state of perpetual fulfillment, unconditioned by desire? Or, perhaps, to take a Buddhist perspective, the unconditioned state is one in which the mind is fully cognizant of its doings, and only manifests what it chooses to manifest? This may be getting closer..... I believe that the purpose of Steiner's work with individual meditation was to reach a state such as this? In Buddhism the mind is consider to be like an ox which must be reigned in and utterly scrutinized with deliberate and meticulous introspection to be understood.

However, Buddha talks of "good" and "evil" quite readily. If we do not consider good and evil to be about pain and suffering, then is it perhaps a distinction between what is helpful for the development of life, in the sense of actualization of consciousness, or the dulling of consciousness, and reality? Would the ego, then, be considered evil: that which seperates and isolates, and creates illusion?

Halfglass, "How much truth might be enough to make living on this plane pointless?" I would agree. The paradox seems insurmountable. How can we live without creating karmic ties? That story about killing animals is useful, I went through a similar experience this summer after reading don Juan and realizing for the first time that animals, and the whole of the biosphere, are actually alive.

Manning, where does the ripple end? That's like asking, how far down does the rabbit hole go? I think the answer might be, as far as you're willing to swim.....

The experience of enlightenment is one that is inherently to be shared, as Daniel mentioned earlier, to "hold the tone" and help everyone else to work through their difficulties, and ultimately guide humanity in the depths of this kali-yuga dark age to the birth of a new "humanism" which fully embraces reality as a thing to be touched, experienced, and explored, and to appreciate and venerate and co-exist with the whole of life on this planet. Enlightenment is simultaneous with a sense of responsibility for all life, the bodhisattva creed, the motivation for ultimate compassion.

In terms of helping people through personal experiences with altered states, I think that you've fallen prey to the illusory dualism of the Western mind. Reality is reality; there is no "other" reality which exists seperately, independently, or to a lesser degree than any other reality. Shamans know that the dream world IS reality, IS the waking world. The dreamworld is a future state of human evolution which has been incubating and explored at various levels for thousands of years, and which now is repressed and denied by Western materialist philosophy. There is no difference between "over there" and "over here" because it is all reality, as experienced by your own consciousness.

Charlie, I really like what you wrote. To experience reality no conception is necessary, because reality exists beyond conception.

Whew, ok, I think I said what I wanted to. :cool:

[ January 07, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[funkpocket]

Where are you in between thoughts?

Finding that place is tough, staying in that place is what we are talking about.

[nanouk]

listening to God, do you really have to listen to hear? smile.gif ...talking to your Loved One's helps...whether it is the robin on the fence, the shagging squirrels in the tree, your car, your Mother and Father and Sister and Brother, but most of all your Children... :D

love and respect,
~N.

[nanouk]

*hands up those who talk to themselves as a habit*

[hand up] redface.gif

[nanouk]

"cut off" by cassavian is on radio again....~groovey~ smile.gif

[nanouk]

...i used to hate my Mother...or no, i correct myself....fear her, for what 'black magic' she was capable of, now i emnbrace Her for showing me the key...
:cool:

[ January 07, 2005, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Nanouk ]

[nanouk]

åh jisses!!!

as you say in sweden....

my garden has just doubled in size, the neighbours fence blew down, exposing the rest of what used to belong to this house....

*spooky*

[nanouk]

the lawn is MUCH greener on the other side *lol*

:D

[daniel]

please spare us.

[funkpocket]

I was home visiting my mother in Whitefish Montana and thought to partake in my high school ritual of going skiing...

I was taken on a 45 minute hike by two women that led out of bounds deep in the mountains behind Big Mountain Ski Resort.

It had snowed two feet over the weekend and the Rockies are steep anyway. We smoked some good weed (hydro) before we headed down the mountain, and because of the difficulty of the arm pit deep powder I was soon alone.

A rush of panic overcame me because I realised I was alone, and now living in Flordia, was not in the physical condition to be sking this difficult of terrain.

maybe it was the weed, elevation, cramps, my body totally giving up, or fear of survival...but for a moment, maybe 45 seconds... I was not on the mountain, the mountain was me...the trail was my path in life, and the powder was my ego...slugging through hoping my body wouldn't quit.. Enlightenment was found... However I would not have recognised that moment as Enlightenment if had hadn't in the past taken mushrooms, or read Joesph Campbell..but mostly taken mushrooms...

Daniel if you read this... I am a phyconaut (sp) because I feel mushrooms are a shortcut to getting humanity on another track... and this site is where it should begin... Breaking Open the Head was the first book I read where I found people were talking about these things (I learned of the book, and you, through coast to coast) your book led me to Mckenna and a new community.

I want to be more involved...I am offering my cabin at Essexs Montana to the pursuit of research...my E-mail is posted...

Artaud began the revolution, but we need to carry it forward.

btw... if this report is going to lead to jests... at least take your time and make them good.

[Humming]

This is the crux of the matter, Humming. Let's say you go into dreamtime and help someone from within that space. But, as Daniel notes, [I think that the "enlightenment" then has to prove itself through the life that is lived after the flash.] there has to be some degree of "proof". Otherwise, no matter how sincere or well-intentioned, it's merely fanciful, wishful thinking. Jesus Christ could (reputedly) heal people merely by touching them. I can't do that. Buddha (reputedly) knew all there was to know. I don't know that.

So, what did I do in that space? Help myself? Yes. Help others? Well, I don't see any "proof" of that so I would have to say that no, I didn't. Even if I wished I could. How far did the ripple go? As far as I can determine, not very far at all. And this is why I question if I am/we are deluding ourselves with all this talk of enlightenment and merely getting trapped in our own attachment to a label that is supposed to indicate some degree of attainment. Am I different now? Yes. Do I treat others differently? Yes. Is this world any "better" as a result? Not as far as I can tell.[/QB][/QUOTE]

You're missing the critical mass part of the equation: monks can just sit and chill out and focus their energies on praying for everyone else because they know that someday, everyone else will chill out too, and realize that "just sitting" and eating, sleeping, walking around in the cherry blossoms, is all you really "need". Like, a pure distillation of the human experience, in many ways.

The compassion part is vital because as you share your fulfillment with others, they too can come to an understading, and then share that. After the ball gets rolling for a while, which is indeed happening, and perhaps the wave will crest in 2012, there will no longer be people like Bush who get off on being evil, and who have no sense of interconnection or higher Self than the zeros in their bank accounts. There will be no bank accounts, and no human-made bombs, or reality tv shows, and no one fucking anything else over to get theirs. Because, they will already "have" "theirs" because they have inside them all they could ever want to be, or need, or experience. Even Bush could come to this understanding. Right now though, he is stuck in a hellish fundamentalist reality which dominates other pieces of itself for the pleasure of control.

The fatal flaw in that practice, however, is that the pleasure is ultimately hollow and intransient--control itself is an ephemeral delusion--the guilt is there. It manifests in the nightmares and the popular culture excretions which are waking nightmares: the perpetuation of hate everywhere.

But it is said that Love had no opposite. Hate is nothing, and it must fall away because it's killing us. Hate comes from false divisions which are created by the ego. I do believe that if I could sit down for a few months with Bush, maybe feed him some mushrooms in a nice way, that I could help him see what he is and why he shouldn't do what he does, and that he'd be chill after that. Anyway, maybe that answers your question some. I'm going back to sleep, to dream.

[funkpocket]

Humming, beautiful post... is that flash really worth a shit, other than comming to the conclusion it is good to wave people in while driving in traffic?

but why is it there, and is it the same with everyone... and if it is, why is it so difficult (terrifing for some) to talk about it and treat it as real...but flash doesn't describe it. I never realise i'm in it until it's over...in fact, drawing attention to it kills it.

just like a deep deep funk pocket.

btw... my mom aquired some mushrooms for me for my homecomming, but they have been sitting out for over six months (non frozen)...are they dead, or can I take them with something to help them out?

[silentwolf]

Funk~

Whether or not the mushrooms are still good depends on how much oxygen they've been exposed to. Psilocin oxidizes into some pretty much inert materials. You might want to try taking 5g peganum harmala seeds with them; at the very least, they won't hurt. Don't forget to take the standard MAOI precautions with the seeds, though.

[funkpocket]

Manning, I really liked the story of the famous yogi in Tibet, it relates very well with a conversation I had with a child role model yesterday, who I just discovered was a Fox News Red State Republican...I tried so hard to express debate and still keep the relationship alive, or at least not come across as a total lunitic.

It was a tearing away from youth that was the 3rd(?) form of enlightenment you were writing about...gradual, but natural...and about that relationship... do you continue to find middle ground, a sort of win-win, like Wilber's all Quadrent all Level idea... or do you just let the relationship die?

how many of your personal belifs do you repress in order to maintain a superficial relationship? or did I just answer my own question... yet all things are Dharma things? right?

I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this...so the question is simply, can a philosophy take the place of a friend?

.....wolf... thanks for the tip...but I think they're dead...but I'm glad I live in Flordia : )

[silentwolf]

No problem...I recently just moved from Melbourne. If you hop onto 192 and head east, as soon as you cross the Brevard County line, you'll see a few cow pastures. A guy I know (who's dead now due to a methadone o.d.,) used to pick so many shrooms from those fields that he literally had garbage bags full. Of course, he came back a few times with bird shot in his leg...

[daniel]

funkpocket,

thank you for telling me that the book had a positive influence on you and your life... glad you have found a community.

as for feeding bush mushrooms, i had a long dream this morning in which i was dining with bush (sort of an amalgam of father and son), asking him about where he saw the world in twenty years... he had no answers. I awoke thinking that these guys really are so lost and so shortsighted, so locked into their sense of privilege, that they really have no vision at all... they don't even conceive of the contradictions in their worldviews, how the eschatological end-time stuff and the materialist greed flow together is not something they even bring into their consciousness, as long as the money keeps flowing...

[Humming]

That's interesting Daniel; I had a dream just the other day where Bush was "teaching" me in a classroom, dictating the Fascist Plato's "noble lie" which claims that for society to "work" properly false divisions and hierarchies must be created within society, for peoples' own good, to control them. I wasn't lucid so I didn't exactly recognize Bush in the way I would have had this happened in waking life, but I spoke out against him, telling him that he had no authority whatsoever for truth because he was teaching LIES. He left the room after that, without responding to me.

That's why I think mushrooms, and indeed the whole of the psychedelic experience itself, should be integrated within society as a fundamentally human experience, necessary for understanding reality, and living life. In the depths of a heavy mushroom trip, there is no escape. there can be no denial of reality, and when people do fall into that trap of denial and repression, they destroy themselves. Huxley wrote about this rite of passage in his book "Island" and I've often fantasized about the same (although I've not actually read Huxley's book--yet). Perhaps only shamans, or as Leary suggested, establishing a trained professional class of shamans of some kind, should be exposed to the intensity of reality through plants, but I think that ultimately, it is an experience that everyone should have.

[silentwolf]

Leary's main flaw was that he only saw half of what it takes for the psychedelic experience to become an actual consciousness-expanding entheogenic experience. He was convinced that simply spreading these around would initiate change in and of itself, but he was grossly overestimating the effectiveness of the drugs by themselves. It's not enough to simply consume these things; the ritual setting and mindset MUST be present or you simply end up with directionless chaos.

It's like pouring a pile of gunpowder on the ground and assuming that just because you light it, you'll end up on the moon. It don't work that way, bub. You have to shape the blast in such a way that it pushes you off in the direction you need it to go, then hold on while the G-forces try to pull you apart. It's the exact same way with entheogens.

What's my point? You can't just feed someone a fistful of p. cubensis and expect them to have some reality altering perspective shift to the good of all mankind. If you fed a person like George W. Bush shrooms in his state of mind, the only thing that would happen is he would "see God" and be told that he's doing the best thing for mankind, and he should be very satisfied with himself (that is, assuming that's what he actually believes; if he's doubtful and fighting it, he'll have a horrifying trip as his doubts magnify themselves.)

In Magic practice there are Four Elements, and a Fifth hidden one. Most people like to make up some elaborateness for the symbolism, so they look beyond Occam's Razor on the issue. Air, Earth, Fire, and Water are the four, with Mind being the fifth. Each of these five represents a different manner of achieving the consciousness-shift necessary for understanding the Mysteries of Existence (who am I? what is life? why do we live? and so on.) Air is to snorting; Earth is to chewing and swallowing; Fire is to burning and drinking the smoke; Water is to boiling and drinking the tea; and the Fifth, Mind, more supreme than the other four, relates to pure Awareness itself. The reason we use entheogens is because it takes a truly insane individual to take the fifth route by itself. You must completely disconnect from what you believe right now, so that you can lose your doubts and actually see the source of your thoughts.
Treat your ritual structure with more care than the preparation of your entheogens, and make certain the mindset of your mates parallels the place you want to be. Awareness is the beginning and the end of what you seek.

[silentwolf]

The only thing in our culture that parallels entheogens is dynamite. If you're unfamiliar with the work of Alfred Nobel and the history of dynamite, I highly suggest you research it. You may find it most revealing. (Enlightenment: a sudden illumination, by which true sight is gained.)

[jezebelle]

Humming that reminds me of a very scarey dream I had a long time ago. Alot of us were in a pool of water following an evil man, swimming in line following him. I was at the back and yelled hey! we don't have to follow him, let's swim this way. He got real pissed and just pulled me down, and down and down (endless water) seemed like forever (without touching me). I was saved by becoming awake, talk about cold sweat.

I don't know, I think Bush would freak from the experience because he seems like such a low-level puppet.
Yet, I never underestimate my ability to be wrong.

[Humming]

"Leary's main flaw was that he only saw half of what it takes for the psychedelic experience to become an actual consciousness-expanding entheogenic experience. He was convinced that simply spreading these around would initiate change in and of itself, but he was grossly overestimating the effectiveness of the drugs by themselves. It's not enough to simply consume these things; the ritual setting and mindset MUST be present or you simply end up with directionless chaos."

Silentwolf, I would agree with you here except that I think that if society were structured differently in certain key ways there would be no context for people to misuse psychedelics in. If there were a general authority or midwife of reality, such as shamans have been in past times, there would be no possibility of "turning on" then isolating oneself, which might have been the result of much of Leary's delusion. I have known many people who have done drugs like acid without any self-awareness whatsoever, and I was always amazed that someone could undergo such an experience without any deep unhooking of Self. My conclusion is that denial is a very pwerful force in this Kali-yuga, and that many people may come so close to Self-actualization without ever taking that definitive step.

As far as set/setting, I'm well aware. The same applies to dreams: reality functions in much the same way as a drug trip: the reality that you choose to manifest is what will end up staring you in the face, at the end of it. You choose to smile, or bare your snarling teeth.

The paradox if Nobel winning the peace prize for dynamite was told to me when I was young, though it probably took a few years before the absurdity of it could really fully set in.

Jezebelle, that reminds me very much of my own dreams! I've had many where I was floating in some kind of ether, only to be dragged down by some unintelligible force. These days though, I realize that force as part of myself--even Bush--and seek to swim upwards, despite the current.

My point is that anyone can find peace with themselves and with that, engage the outer world, even Bush. Perhaps, people like Bush are the ones who we should especially be reaching out to, considering their utter inability to understand themselves and their own actions.

At the same time, these people seem beyond communication, as is they are possessed to the extent that no dialogue is even possible. Who can say? All that we can do is believe that the expression of love is possible, and that the pure expression of this will eventually seep into the deepest, most elaborately constructed and well-guarded ego structures--even Bush's.

[funkpocket]

I'm going to take some (a lot of) heat on this... but...what if it is all about the hunt... and Bush and Carl Rove are the best hunters in the land right now...

I am new to Mckennna, but didn't we take these things (mushrooms) to be better hunters?

the problem is, after taking these things I can't kill anything... as an artist, I can't expect anyone to pay for the art that comes naturally...

Bush has no problem killing what he hunts because he doesn't have the burden of mushrooms...

by the way Fox... those 6 month old mushrooms... were just fine...not out of this world, but talking to yourself in the mirror fine...

love you all, follow your bliss,

Ryan

[daniel]

I read somewhere a description of shamans as "energetic hunters," hunting energy rather than meat. That seems very cogent to my experience of reality... I feel I have to try to conserve as much of my energy as possible (avoiding all sorts of material world tasks I should be paying attention to) in order to focus on these areas and put thoughts into writing. I dream about not having to write any more so I could utilize more energy for normal things.

i suppose rove is someone who utilizes the present system as thoroughly as possible for his own aims, and in that way he is a hunter... he just doesn't realize or can't imagine that the kind of hunting he is doing is almost already a thing of the past, as we are transitioning to different modalities of consciousness or "higher" or subtler octaves of energy, with different threats and different rewards... my theory, anyway.

[Charlie]

I dream about not having to write any more so I could utilize more energy for normal things.

Our desires our diametrically opposed: I dream about not have to do normal things so I could utilize more energy for writing. A long time ago, I was pretty good at it…

I think the Karl Roves of the world will always be with us, even as human consciousness evolves into the fourth dimension. It correlates with the thread of integrating the shadow. Some will always choose to manifest the shadow, while masking the “light.” Humanity will always need to be wary of these types—look at the way covertly fascist elements like Heider in Austria, Le Pen in France and now the neocons in the U.S. surface from time to time.

Perhaps one day the public outcry against these ideas will completely subvert their appearance into the popular mainstream, but they will be always be waiting in the wings, vultures circling.

No offense Daniel, but it's one of the main reasons (besides practical, logistical concerns) that I cannot envision a complete utopia in our lifetime, as you do (if you still entertain that idea). Although I make attempts intellectually to reject overly simplistic concepts like good and evil, it’s sometimes difficult to deny that morality appears to be a two-headed coin, with a seemingly 50-50 chance that either one of the faces will surface.

[ January 14, 2005, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[daniel]

I do envision a "complete" utopia during our lifetimes - but not a "perfect" one.

Most simply put, what I see happening is a global movement from the third chakra (gut - greed-based desires) to the fourth chakra (heart - compassion) that is also "the Second Coming of Christ." When this transition happens (and it may be sudden), everything else will shift along with it. Those who are holding onto the Rove-type vision are just not going to be able to manifest in this new paradigm.

I think, in this surge, the "shadow" moves to subtler and more conscious realms - for instance, the realm of male-female relationships which should give us at least a thousand more years of work to understand and get right. Also, shadow-work will move to the edge-states of consciousness where we will have to overcome fear (and hostility) to explore other modalities of consciousness and levels of being that are extremely different than our own, and may seem violent or antithetical to us without really being so.

The boring, blunt, brutal projection of the shadow - and the systemic "cold evil" of our current system - that we now experience will no longer have a place in this scenario. It will offend both our tact and our nobility of spirit to continue to allow 31.6 % of kids in Harlem to get asthma - as The Times today reports - while "the experts" pretend they don't know that incinerators and sewage treatment plants are causing this. Those who continue to pretend to that kind of "expertise" will be resettled in colonies on cold, barren planets or exiled to depraved underworlds of the soul.

I am, simultaneously, convinced that something like this is going to take place, and yet cowed by the seeming impossibility of it.

[Humming]

Originally posted by daniel:
I am, simultaneously, convinced that something like this is going to take place, and yet cowed by the seeming impossibility of it.At this point, I don't see how it couldn't happen. I don't see how nature could allow 2 billion years of growth and development to wither in the trap of its own stupidity. If that were to happen, however, and the world were destroyed by toxicity or all of us were enslaved by mind-control chips or zombification drugs and herded into camps, it would be like the divine hand of nhilism slapping all of us right in the fucking face.

McKenna described it well in his analogy of the flower: our planet is ripe to bloom; we're just at the point of fully exhausting our resources, but we could use what we have now, if at some point we can completely direct all of our resources to this shift, to either create a V.R. paradise, or host a mass exodus off this planet, to ones that haven't been fucked by the darker side of our nature. Whenever I watch science fiction now, anything with hoardes of robots or massive technology, I have to tell people that our planet could not possibly sustain that kind of material development into the future.

Is it possible to stay here, on Earth? I do not like the idea of banishing the hate-mongers to die in Siberia or something. It's clear that is this process of the "actualization of the psyche" is indeed occuring (which it certainly seems to be: ask your dreams!) then nothing of that sort would be necessary, rather, each mind would take care of its own reality in a directly karmic sense. This is already the nature of reality: Bush and Rove must occupy their own private hells of hatred and pain because they have sold their souls, and any possibility for an honest experience of joy or love. Reality is a feedback loop, and unless the god of Nhilism is just laughing his cruel ass off somewhere, then Bush must have nightmares on a regular basis. The Shift will be the actualization of those nightmares into the material world. And vice verse for us, in terms of actualizing compassion.

Hrm, there's a lot more that could be said. I think that in a few years we will know whether the kali-yuga will end definitively, or swallow us up forever.

I think that the power to change must be ours; if we are to actualizing a new reality we must do exactly that. How easy or difficult would that be? Well, if you take a historical perspective, change is fluid and all-pervasive. This is why I have hope, and feel that everything must be going just the way that it should be. The parallels and paradoxes are stretching out further and further, and something must snap.

But I also feel that if we are to actualize this change, it will probably be more difficult than anything we could imagine, on an individual level for all of us, as well as a macro-planetary level as well. We need to get our shit together, collectively, banish the delusions that are killing us, and figure out a new way to live, as a planet. Materialism has painted us into a shallow grave which we cannot escape from, because nothing else exists. The answer is simple enough, we just need to actualize forces beyond that which we can currently comprehend or control; new modalities of consciousness.

[ January 14, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[daniel]

hi humming,

i totally agree with you about nature not allowing things to develop to this point for no reason - and that in itself is a great argument for the imminent mass-shift.

however i disagree that the shift, once it starts, will necessarily be horribly stressful - only the period leading up to the transition will be stressful. Once the transition begins, it will be like rolling downhill in ever-increasing waves of synchronicities. As it says in the Rig Veda:

"Without effort one world moves into the other."

[Humming]

Oh, no, I agree with that perspective as well: once the energy for change has been fully catalysed, the rest will fall into place easily, because we will be working fully in cooperation, instead of the ego strife conflict which characterizes the politics of our interactions now.

The most difficult part, then, is helping people to realize the illusory nature of the divisions they perceive between themselves, each other, and the living consciousness of the biosphere. Once the necessity of this true union is realized and we may move collectively beyond the entrapment of the obsessively rationalized and constrictive ego structure, the rest of the shift will be as natural as breathing....

[ January 14, 2005, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[silentwolf]

Let's say that Nature didn't get us this far, and that we were helped along by another civilization which is extremely technologically advanced, and has their own interests in mind by helping us progress. Let's say that we will have a Utopia of sorts, after we deal with a Pole Shift and the "just following orders!" or "just trying to make a buck!" end up crushed by tidal waves, ripped apart by 200+mph winds, fried by an electrical storm, or frozen in the new Arctic territories.
Given the evidence of history, the way things are going right now, and our tremendous ability to delude ourselves, if there is a definate, massive Earth-Change about to unfold, what would it be by Occam's Razor? What type of things do we have empirical evidence of, or at least such an overwhelming number of artifacts and coincidences as to support it?
We know that the Earth was ripped in half at one point in time, and something pulled a massive amount of salt water off of Saturn and redistributed it through our solar system as Saturn's Rings, comets, and the oceans on Earth. We know that Quetzalcoatl matches the description of the Annunaki of Sumer perfectly, and that inscriptions in Peru matched inscriptions from the Sumerian civilization. We also know that there are monuments the world around, mainly pyramid structures, which correspond to a specific astronomical date. (We don't have the capacity to construct these monuments, by the way.) We know that ancient Egypt had a metal working technique utilizing powdered metals that we thought we invented in WW2 to make Fat Man work. We also know through Archeology that "Soddom and Gomorrah" were both ground zero sites. Acres upon acres of green glass, forged only by seering nuclear heat, have been found at both sites.
I mean, to be honest with you, I'd love to think that some overwhelming force was going to enter our minds and turn us all into jolly little elves, but history does not support that end. How many times did the Hopi say they had to go live with the Ant People? I also seriously think that whoever determined that "Nibiru is a higher vibration of existence, not a planet," is either trying to cash in on it, or they're completely delusional. I go with the former rather than the latter.
No one knows specifically what will occur. Hedge your bets and take your best guess.

[nanouk]

it is interesting what you say, about egypt and sodom and gomorrah having the intellect to use powdered metals, if that is the case, they could use the pyramids as weather machines, put a conductor on top, and goodness knows what one will attract, i am sure they were hoping for water.
i suspect they also knew how to make dynamite, or the least, gun powder, quarrying all that stone must have sparked some ingenial thought in some of the ancient alchemists?
the ant people....hummm, have been meditating on them lately, i agree, i would feel safe living in an ant's nest, they know what is going on inside our earth and above...which brings me to a mineral called adamant, anyone know anything about it?
my grandfather worked at Sandvik, in Sandviken, sweden for many years, and i sometimes went with him to work, they manufacture something called 'coromant', used to cut diamonds and more, it is tougher than both adamant and 'diamant'.

[ January 15, 2005, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

[silentwolf]

http://member.newsguy.com/~wjhudson/evolution/matson/arg3.html

This link has some info on comets.

http://www.planetary.org/saturn/rings.html

This one is on Saturn's rings.

http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/faculty/jewitt/kb/planetx.html

Information on perturberation (sp?) of Neptune.

http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/faculty/jewitt/kb/planetx.html

Bowling for Planets! Some info on Uranus.

http://www.solstation.com/stars/asteroid.htm

Here's a bit on the asteroid belt...note the speed it degrades.

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/oort.htm

A bit of info on the Oort Cloud.

http://members.aol.com/mddunbar1/AnnunakiInfoPage.html

A bit of info on the Annunaki.

From what I have seen, the Annunaki are always described as having colored feathers or wings. This could mean that they literally have feathers, which is highly probable, or it could simply signify their ability to fly (via technology.) It's also said that the Annunaki had devised a twenty-hour schedule of 72 minutes each to track the day/night shift while on Earth...if you look closely at the Annunaki sculptures in stone, you'll see wristwatches on the carvings that correlate to that. Also take note of the "disc of heaven" picture on that last link.
The presentations on these links are facts. It is imperative that you draw your own conclusion; just as importantly, it is imperative that you draw your conclusions based on evidence rather than fantastic fascinations.

[silentwolf]

Have there ever been any successful, truly utopian societies in the past? I as of yet have been unable to uncover any evidence of anything; rather, what I find are warring societies and different degrees of slavery or servitude. (Slavery is compelled servitude, most often by force; servitude is slavery accepted.)
What would it take to form a Utopia? Our current world-model can't possibly support one. For their to be new growth, there must be shedding of the old. Here's the paradox: for a new utopia to be built, the old hierarchy must be dashed so that sovereignty of the self reigns supreme. However, this must be accomplished in such a way that the people who form the Utopia are not responsible for the dashing of the old, or else the old world model will still prevail.
What are the chances that humanity will have a spontaneous expansion of awareness and understanding of unity? Well, heads or tails, take your pick. Besides, there's a lot of talk about it, and very little work being done. Don't expect intervention by a Supreme Being on our behalf.

Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

That's the motto of a true Utopia.

[nanouk]

From what I have seen, the Annunaki are always described as having colored feathers or wings. This could mean that they literally have feathers, which is highly probable, or it could simply signify their ability to fly (via technology.) It's also said that the Annunaki had devised a twenty-hour schedule of 72 minutes each to track the day/night shift while on Earth...if you look closely at the Annunaki sculptures in stone, you'll see wristwatches on the carvings that correlate to that. Also take note of the "disc of heaven" picture on that last link.

the folding universe may enable time travel according to some, so yes, the annunaki may have put on a costume of feathers, to re-enact the shamanic flight used for remote viewing...i have seen the picture/relief you describe, and there is another sphere in the sky, do you suspect it could be the half of earth that got blown off moulded into shape by time?

well the force COULD have thrown it into an orbit larger than life itself, we don't know, but we did know about the 26000 year cycle of mars.
;)

but hey, they havent figured out the truth about our moon's origin yet, for all we know it could be an ancient acorn covered in space dust and rocks, like a giant sugared almond... :D

[silentwolf]

Here's a theory for you all to ponder: 1/3 of the Earth is torn off during a celestial encounter, losing its stable gravitational center, much mineral matter and atmosphere. This results in the Pangean land mass "breaking apart" and drifting to fill in the torn section (the Earth was void and without form.) For several thousand years, the Earth reshaped itself via violent earth quakes and volcanic eruptions. Then, the same thing that came by and ripped the Earth in half pulls a massive amount of salty water off of Saturn and drags a good bit of it with it along its orbit, sling shotting some of it off at the apex of its orbit (hello flood!) and some more of it off at it's nadir (comets.) This results in a sudden salty ocean for Earth as we get literally rained upon from the heavens. The Earth still isn't back up to par on its gravitational center, so the land keeps drifting, some of it sinking (Lemuria and Atlantis) and some of it arising (Krakatoa, Hawaii...) Now let's say this same thing that caused all this chaos in our solar system is still orbiting our sun, causing havoc in its wake (the perturbing of Neptune, Uranus, the comets in the Oort Cloud, and Pluto's weird ability to dance a jig; also China's 20 hour night and Joshua's 20 hour day, which the US had to account for when calculating the trip to the moon.) So occasionally, due to this nemesis celestial body and the unbalanced nature of our disturbed Earth, the surface occasionally rolls over a bit, and the polar axis changes (Sudan Basin, Hudson Bay area, Egyptian astronomy's account of the sun changing directions three times.) Now given that this must happen on an astronomically predictable time scale, isn't it possible that ancient cultures who were astronomically superior to our nuclear-minded culture could have accurately predicted when the next major Earth-change would be?

[nanouk]

salt is vital to life, as vital as water...and oxygen, and..., and the rest...the white powdered gold...i have long wondered... smile.gif

ps.yes, i do believe in cyclical predictions, but once in a while a cycle is broken, and a new form is taking shape.
this form could make every life on this planet mutate, and find new habitats.

it is believed that the dolphin was a bear/beaver/canine creature before entering the sea...i don't know about the whale, but they do resemble elephants to me. smile.gif

ps2.i just found an interseting and informative link on the science of the ancients:

lexiline (http://www.lexiline.com/)

[ January 15, 2005, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

[nanouk]

silentwolfxvx wrote:
Here's the paradox: for a new utopia to be built, the old hierarchy must be dashed so that sovereignty of the self reigns supreme. However, this must be accomplished in such a way that the people who form the Utopia are not responsible for the dashing of the old, or else the old world model will still prevail.

i've been thinking of what you said...
perhaps the floods, quakes and landslides are it? the dashing of the old world model?

...it feels like slowly, the world is becoming a quieter place...

...and a more positive vibe is felt on the streets...

...and most of all, the animals are back...there has been a 'dead' silence and absence of fauna on my walks for a while, up until recently...and now they are singing the song of life again...i mean literally beaming with it! :D

love and respect,
~N.

[nanouk]

...so where shall we start our Utopia? (0:

*i was going to say libya, but that is a JOKE!*

[ January 15, 2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

[Isaiah Mpski]

"..for a new Utopia to be built the old hierarchy must be dashed..

In a way that is partially true but the new Utopia will come about when the prophecies of the old can be recognised as being fulfilled.

That is the problem.God(or whatever controls eternity)continually sends us messengers and signs about transcending truths).We generally either instituionalize or crucify these people because we are governed by a society in which money is the main thing that controls.That is why our society is slowly being turned on it's ear.

Prophecies are a simple thing.Budha(and very wisely so)says to take the middle path.Hinduism preaches continual rebirth.Islam preaches of social morality of the masses.The Hebrews are awaiting one like Moses-but I guarantee most of them don't want to hear what He has to say.Christianity is very clear.Christ' words ring clear and simple.Very simple New Testament prophecies,that all can read.They have almost all been fulfiled if you have the ears to hear and the eyes to see.

[silentwolf]

I'd appreciate more information on these prophecies and references to their fulfillment please, Isaiah.

[daniel]

silentwolf,

can't say i am very convinced by the evidence for all the things you think you "know." It sounds to me you are caught between a primitive materialist perspective and an occult perspective.

the kind of shift i am talking about... if you tried to ask a bunch of primates a few million years ago, "Do you guys ever think that those grunts you make will self-organize through a quantum jump to a higher state of complexity into language, allowing you to create civilizations and technology?" they would probably not even know how to reply - but if somehow they could reply, they would probably say "no way!"

Consciousness has been self-organizing, through quantum jumps into higher states of complexity and order, from the origin of life on this planet, each jump taking an exponentially smaller amount of time to manifest.

Once the logos-bearing species, humanity, developed, the quantum-jumps in complexity moved from the biological level to the level of psychic and conceptual existence. This is what Jean Gebser describes: "mutational breaks" into different "consciousness structures," each a different relationship to time and space. The structure he foresees on the horizon, the "integral-aperspectival," will have the strength of will and compassionate rationality to institute a harmonic order on the Earth.

"powdered metal" and "Annunaki" and all the other stuff you mentioned is just beside the point.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Well for a start Christ says very simply that you have to be reborn-born again of the spirit and of the body.Any of you who have arrived at any sort of spiritual truth know that you have been here before.Your consciousness tells you that.
And that is the reason we are doomed to come back.We come back until we surrender to the truth and do what is right.The truth is that we have to go through life with a love of truth and wisdom.
Another thing he said that in the last days that we shall see wonders and strange sights in the sky.That there shall be wars and rumors of wars and that there shall be earthquakes in diverse places.
Get yourself a red letter edition and read His words.You will be amazed at His wisdom and understanding of the truths of life.
He says that his church will be based on Peter and Peter clearly says that this world will end in fire.We will be burned up in the future by the Sun-my interpretation.We will need to learn how to turn our world into a comet so we can travel to distant galaxies,to our heaven in the sky.Probably just how we got here.

[silentwolf]

Daniel, I understand where you're coming from. Truth is relative to perspective. From what I gather of your viewpoint, you're saying that the progression of consciousness in matter via humans is about to escalate to the next level. I don't deny that whatsoever.

My point was to present evidence that the major world prophecies which speak of great earth changes are in accord with celestial events. Judging by the fanfare Velikovsky received, I wouldn't even make an attempt to try and convince anyone. All I've done is give a theoretical situation supported by empirical evidence. To be quite frank, it's not even theoretical. It's hypothetical because I can't test it.

I'm not quite certain what you mean by "caught between a primitive materialist perspective and an occult perspective." I do know this, however; this monstrosity that we have built is not suited to us. It may feel comfortable, but we do not feel like we belong here. As we progress technologically, the sense of "not belonging" and thus attempted escapes from this will increase. You can literally see this increase in the perspective of our world. There are three ways of coping with this feeling: grasping materialism to delude oneself; rebelling by various means (including apathy) to delude oneself; and dislodging oneself from society.

My goal is not to dash dreams. My goal is awakening from the dream.

[funkpocket]

I just watched a little (a lot) of the new Pen and Teller series "Bullshit" talking about near death experiences... in that a abnormal stress of the brain causes a flood of chemicals leading to "talks with God"

are any of these "chemicals' the same as the ones released during a drug induced trip?

and if so, are these 'chemicals' the birth of a new philosophy based within hard science?

[MidnightDreary]

funkpocket,
I haven't seen the Penn and Teller show, but if they were talking about a chemical released in the brain during near-death experiences that leads to "talks with God," they were probably talking about dimethyltryptamine, DMT. Dr. Strassman studied it at New Mexico in the nineties and concluded that it is manufactured in the pineal gland (a.k.a. third eye) and is the 'spirit molecule' - the molecule that can connect our physical selves to the spirit world. He further believes that our spirit enters the fetus 49 days after conception, when the pineal has formed. He suggests that it is flooded into the brain during certain stressful events as birth and death (or near-death) and that sometimes it is accidentally triggered (as in alien abduction experiences). It is found not only in humans but all over nature, in an increasingly known number of vines, grasses, weeds, and barks. It is one of two co-active ingredients in Ayahuasca.

Bryan

[nanouk]

when i watched television as a habit , i used to love watching 'the sky at night' with patrick moore, i watched the latest episode in the archives last night, november 2004:

The Sky at Night (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spaceguide/skyatnight/proginfo.shtml)

smile.gif

please find very intersting information on a dying star called Betelgeuse smile.gif

actually, the whole program sheds light on a few questions we keep asking ourselves here...a second sun, matter, anti-matter, the Godhead, and the whole Vortex we call the 'Orb of Energy'.

...but Betelgeuse in particular caught my attention... ;)

[silentwolf]

http://www.gaiamind.org/Gebser.html

That link gives a little bit of information on Gebser.

Daniel, from what I understand, Gebser's "Integral Structure of Consciousness" is the step in human consciousness where we lose the state of duality (yin and yang reunite to form the t'ai chi,) and we are able to view through things regardless of time or space to see the truth (relevancy and functionality) of them. Those two aspects have been known respectively as the Buddha-Mind (Buddha meaning "one-with-all") and the Buddha-Eye. As far as the rest of his human mode-of-consciousness theories goes, it's admitted that they can't be proven and some of it gets really, really creative with accepted knowledge and history.

I can't vouch for all of his consciousness-states in humans, but I can vouch for the last one. I'm already there. (This is something that I can't verify or support to anyone who would choose to call me a liar, and on the same note, you could not verify or support that I am mistaken or intentionally misleading you. Please don't try to argue with me; your minds are already set as to the validity of any points I make already.)

Now, going with my already being in this mindset that all humanity is purportedly progressing towards, do I think that there will be a sudden evolution of thought within the masses? No. Most certainly not without something so traumatizing as to force the new mode of thought. Why would I say "traumatizing" into the new mode of thought? First off, personal experience; I know that works. Second off, there must be a catalyst. The change of thought mode is an effect of the equal reaction principle.

Here's the kicker: Am I right? Yes and no. There is no individual out there who can truly understand my experience on this matter or my total viewpoint of this matter by reading a handful of letters and words I've strung together. My recommendation for anyone who really wants to know is to dive right in and start exploring, but a word of caution first! To see with the eyes and know with the mouth of another is to not see and know at all.

All is One.

[silentwolf]

To truly understand the future, you must understand the present. Let's examine some facts about existence and thought in general.

Fact: It is currently accepted that thought in humans is directly related to both chemical changes in the neural structure, and different transmissions/receptions of various frequencies on the RF scale. Extensive research has shown that identical strands of DNA can communicate to one another via infrared light and barely-detectable EMF across vast distances; these findings have led many of the scientific community to believe that at the very least, DNA itself is capable of thoughts.

Fact: Mounting archeological evidence continues to show that we are not the first technologically capable society on this planet, and we are also not the most advanced. There is evidence of nuclear warfare from over 5000 years ago; this evidence was supported by the fact that Ancient Egypt had powdered metal casting technology. This technology was found by our society to be integral to the nature of developing nuclear warheads; without it, we could not have made the bombs we did.

Fact: The Earth's magnetic field is decaying at such an intense rate that it will most certainly be non-existent by 2050. Scientist who offer that figure said they're being generous.

Fact: Something extremely catastrophic happened in our Solar System recently which formed comets, tore something rather large apart between Jupiter and Mars, knocked Neptune on its side, and pulled Mars far enough away from the sun that all liquid water would freeze and it's eco-system collapse. This same event also deposited more water and salt (salt noticeably) than the Earth had ever seen before. (Studies have shown that mineral stripped due to erosive water cannot possibly account for the saline content of our oceans.) There's also the fact of continental drift to contend with in the "Worlds in Collision" set of facts.

Fact: Every single human society speaks of visitors from the stars travelling in some mode of flying vehicle, be it a burning wheel, a flying chariot, a disk of heaven, a flaming/smoking column, and many other descriptions based on the perspectives of the witness. If you combine this with the evidence of previous highly technological cultures on this planet and the fact that humans share more genetic structure with a snake than they do with a chimpanzee, then it really makes you start to wonder just exactly what is going on here?

Fact: There are programs in place right now which are searching the skies for the planet known as Nibiru. One such program is "Project Wormwood," run by the US Air Force out of Australia. Extensive support for the existence of this rogue comes from mathmatical computations involving the perturbance of comets and the outer planets. This planet is supposed to orbit our sun somewhere between 2200 and 3600 of our years, and the closest it is supposed to come to Earth is the asteroid belt. This is quite in accord with the theory of Earth being struck and knocked off its path.

Fact: Gebser was not attempting to explain a phenomenon, as most science typically goes about. Gebser was attempting to describe how he thought our minds had evolved from being "the lowly ape" (a term of superiority, which I completely dislike) into what would be some transcendent thought mode in the future. He could not offer any evidence supporting his theory; he could only offer the theory itself. The major flaw with Gebser's theory is that he was viewing the world from the perspective that humans carry the ultimate mark of divinity (logos) upon them. That view is excessively subjective and narrow; as thoughts and consciousness are simply chemical reactions and RF, all life forms have it. If you reduce it to nothing more than RF, then there is no particle of existence that does not have thought or consciousness.

Fact: The entire universe is composed of one dynamic band of energy, to which nothing can be added or taken away. Because nothing can be added or taken away, there must be an equal exchange in all things; thus, for every action there is an equal, and opposite, reaction.

[gone]

Originally posted by silentwolfxvx:
I can't vouch for all of his consciousness-states in humans, but I can vouch for the last one. I'm already there. (This is something that I can't verify or support to anyone who would choose to call me a liar, and on the same note, you could not verify or support that I am mistaken or intentionally misleading you. Please don't try to argue with me; your minds are already set as to the validity of any points I make already.)Here we go again. ‘Argue’ may be the way you think about exchanging ideas, I like to call it discussion, and if anyone were to find your banging on about supposed facts about as dynamic as a second-year undergraduate then they should certainly be free to discuss that opinion with you.

As for non-duality, the proof *is* in the pudding, not in the saying. Seeing you are so keen on presenting empirical evidence we will no doubt have ample opportunity over the coming months to witness the balance you strike between earthly compassion and understanding and non-dual awareness. And please do not tell me that this proves the point you make that my mind is already set as to the validity of your point.

[nanouk]

i like to see it as discussion too, playing with theories about 'All That Is'...
it is like the existentialist debating team i never joined, *lol* i have absolutely no scientific background, but i read once, somewhere, about a shaman Elder's advice to his apprentice:

Go to a place in nature you treasure, bring provisions for a day, and sit down. Mark out a metre squared of ground, woodland, river, beach, etc, and study the microcosm within it's boundaries, for a whole day. What which you will learn there will give you valuable wisdom for life.

i find silentwolf's information on the sumerians relevant to the quetzacoatl transmission of daniel's, and to viracocha and hermes and pakal and raa and all the other deities in the pantheon of 'Man'. we have all this information in our hands now, and it is good i believe to play with ideas of extra-terrestrial 'Fairy Godfather's and Mother's'.

whether they are truths, is as questionable as referring to one's 'journey's', 'trips' or 'transmissions' during the influence of drugs as 'truths' also.

love and respect,
~N.

[ January 16, 2005, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

[silentwolf]

[/QUOTE]Here we go again. ‘Argue’ may be the way you think about exchanging ideas, I like to call it discussion,[/QB][/QUOTE]

Discussion, I don't mind; it's an open exchange of information. Argument is a different story; it's not about what's right, what the truth is, and where the facts lie. Argument is about trouncing your opponent. One is approached with an open mind, and one is approached with a sealed off "to conquer" mind. I choose the former over the latter.

[daniel]

funkpocket,
you might want to check out 'Dmt: The Spirit Molecule' by Rick Strassman. I also discuss his theory in my book. I definitely think this is an important thesis.

silentwolf,

Sorry I still feel that a lot of what you are listing as "Fact" is closer to conjecture or fantasy. Just because you read interesting-sounding information in a bunch of websites or books does not necessarily make it true. I think that one has to learn to develop an intuition and a discriminatory faculty that is almost aesthetic in its essence.

As I posted recently in that Nietzche quote, it may be that "truth" is more like a painter's shades or values than absolutes. I would really keep that perspective in mind when you are convinced of "facts" or new beliefs that replace old beliefs.

I also become immediately suspect of anyone who claims they are "there," wherever "there" might be. The best I would say for myself is I feel that I occasionally see "there" up ahead of me, but have no choice but to continue fumbling towards it, inch by inch. Maybe there is no "there" there, only "there" here?

As for the possibliity of a global consciousness shift, I leave open the possibility that it is possible. This is what some of Sheldrake's ideas suggest to me, also Arguelles, who told me, "A huge mindshift can happen very suddenly. Once it happens, everybody catches up." How do I know that isn't true? Look how quickly everyone has reprogrammed their psyches with each new technology, whether cell phones or computers. We seem to have a large mutability factor. The same thing might be possible on a deeper level with a new and far superior paradigm for what it means to be human. I really do think the vast majority of people would welcome such a shift. But if I start out by telling them I am already "there," and want no argument about it, I am not going to be a convincing agent for making that change.

[daniel]

silentwolf,

Another response to your "I am already there":

Before you could possibly hope to convince me you are already "there," you would first have to convince me you are "here." And I do not feel you have done that yet.

[Charlie]

Silent Wolf: your minds are already set as to the validity of any points I make already.

Why do you think that? Folks here are pretty open-minded…

However, it might be more prudent to replace the word “Fact” from your last post with the word “Theory.” Curiously, you touch upon many concepts I’ve been researching lately. I use the word “research” lightly, however, since it’s all reading done on the internet, not at the source… I've become a "faux know-it-all." Other people on this forum often take the time to read the source books on various topics, which carries considerably more weight when interpreting an author’s theory. This is an important distinction, and should be made when reading any website...

Anyway, just a few examples: Metal casting tech is a theory first proposed by Christopher Dunn. An opposing theory is biopolymerization, proposed by Margaret Morris. http://www.margaretmorrisbooks.com/mddebate.html

For the earth’s magnetic field being almost nonexistent by 2050, read some opposing theories:

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0020291.html

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:CaOzBPPFedgJ:www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm%3Ffmedia_id%3D6773%26fcategory_desc%3DSci ence+%22pole+reversal%22,+earth&hl=en%20target=nw

I did a Google search on Project Wormwood; it’s a defense system against incoming asteroids; it doesn’t say anything about Nibiru. That’s not to say that I take the Australian government’s website at its word, but I certainly wouldn’t classify any opposing conspiracy theories as fact.

I would also gently warn against the claim of being “there”…if you're stating that you’ve reached a point of consciousness or acceptance where you feel planetary change is inevitable, fine. If anything more than that, tread lightly…Hubris is a nasty beast, and often takes it’s pound of flesh in the end…

One of the links you provided last week had some interesting information on Sumerian texts as a predecessor to the Bible, which I intend to follow up on. You’ve shared some interesting ideas with us, just go a little easier on the rhetoric.

[ January 16, 2005, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[silentwolf]

Originally posted by daniel:
Before you could possibly hope to convince me you are already "there," you would first have to convince me you are "here." And I do not feel you have done that yet.Is it the duty of the apparition to convince the deluded of his delusion, or is it the duty of the deluded to understand the apparition is mere delusion? You never did explain what you meant by "Caught between a primitive material perspective and an occult perspective."

Life is just a lucid dream once you realize you're actually asleep.

[daniel]

i mean it seems you have replaced a certain set of beliefs with a set of new beliefs in various occult "facts" (Nbiri, etc) -- this seems to me a kind of primitivist occult materialism. However, you might go deeper by inquiring into the basis of your new beliefs (such as being "there"), and realize they are equally specious.

Instead of adhering to "facts," you could fully enter into realizing what Jung called "the reality of the psyche," or what McKenna defined as the morphogenetic field of the imagination. From this perspective, all such "facts" simply become reference-points, and instead of being involved in any realm of belief in "fact," you realize "anything that can be believed is an image of Truth" and therefore another limitation to transcend or ladder to climb.

As the poet Bob Kaufman put it, "I don't know how you get involved with uninvolvement, but I don't want to be involved."

[silentwolf]

Daniel~
My request at no argument was not an attempt to get everyone to agree with more, or not disagree with me. I am always open to new information and opinions. If you think I'm a nutter, then say, "I think you're crazy. What you believe is probably true to you, with it being that truth is relevant to perspective and you're crazy." That's completely fair, unharsh, and not in a style of antagonism.
I presented the information so that others could be informed of the high probability of a former celestial catastrophe, and that there is a grand possibility this is a re-occuring thing in Earth's history. I place no philosophical or transcendent weight upon the information I presented. If you refer to the Hopi prophecies, you will note that they as well as the ones from Revelations speak of a red object moving upon the Earth, and the effects they say will occur also coincide with the effects that would occur with this same scenario. Note that the Hopi prophecy also says that if man is waging war when this happens, the likelihood of survival is severely diminished. Make an informed decision on what could occur; this is my point from all of these posts.
I am not disagreeing with you on the global consciousness shift; my point is that there is neither evidence of or against it. That makes its probability extremely low. If you want a global consciousness-shift, get people to practice zazen and follow their breath. Sitting back and waiting for something to happen that you haven't or aren't working towards won't make it occur.
Enlightenment is simply seeing things as they are. It is not a divine state in the accepted human recognition of such. It is realization through experience that all is One, and you have a responsibility as an animal to protect yourself and your offspring. Enlightenment is tossing aside the grand delusions of what may be, what things were like, and how we feel about them now. It is seeing things as they are and not creating what we think they may be as our truth. Da Mo, also known as Bodhidharma, was a huge proponent of this. You personally may also want to find out just who the Magus of Java is, Daniel; like he said, no one will see him again for teaching unless it's in their karma, and he won't stop that. (Remember also that Karma is the law of cause and effect. If you want to see John Djang, he's telling you to work and find him.)
When Pahana walks onto Hopiland, they will say the time is almost upon us. If the time is almost upon us, then Pahana is already teaching and working with people. Is he here? I don't see him. Could he be here? It has the same probability as a shift in consciousness...50/50. It either will or it won't happen. I for one am not looking for either one, I'm simply working with what I've got.
Daniel, I gathered from reading your book that you have not trained yourself in the art of energy manipulation. I ascertained this from your comment on "shamanic hand movements" and how they helped to relax you in your state of emotional emergency. I recommend Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming to any of you who are interested in training yourselves. His works are at the foremost of ancient Chinese arts which have been presented to the world. I recommend these because they are the longest recorded method for working with energy known to man, and understanding of how this energy works and how to manipulate it is at the basic level of any Shaman's skill. Don't take my word for it, though. Experience it for yourself.
When seeking the source of thoughts, I came upon an understanding. Thoughts are generated from within and broadcasted out across the cosmos. At the same time, the body picks up these signals and processes them, funnelling them into the point between thinking and non-thought. That point between the two is who we are, though we tend to view the thought part as who we are. At that point you reach the state of non-duality. This state is not present in anyone while they think, or while they are in "listening" mode. Through that which flows in, you can know all things; through that which flows out, you can change all things. The inflow must not be stoppered up for you to feel the suffering of all things (which is compassion!) and the outflow must also not be stoppered up so you are unable to accomplish anything. This is the balance I walk continuously, sometimes leaning more to one side than to the other. As this is where I am, I cannot understand this other shift of consciousness you speak of. If it strikes me, I will know; until then, I remain in this moment.
Can I expect anyone who reads this to understand this state? No. I also can't explain you into it. You only get here through practice, and longing for the goal instead of dedicating yourself to walking the path will not get you there.

[silentwolf]

Originally posted by daniel:
silentwolf,

Sorry I still feel that a lot of what you are listing as "Fact" is closer to conjecture or fantasy. Just because you read interesting-sounding information in a bunch of websites or books does not necessarily make it true. I think that one has to learn to develop an intuition and a discriminatory faculty that is almost aesthetic in its essence. Do the research on what I listed as fact for yourself, and tell me that I conjectured it or it is the fantasy of myself or another individual. Many of your posts have attempted to shed me in a light of delusions, because that is how you view me. Do not discard the evidence because of your opinion of the messenger; such is known as shallow-mindedness. Velikovsky was regarded in the same manner by the scientific community when he presented his work entitled "Worlds In Collision." Most did not even take the time to review his work before labeling him fallacious. However, Albert Einstein swore shortly before he died that he would see to it, as long as he lived, that Velikovsky got a fair ear from the scientific community. Unfortunately, Albert Einstein died before that happened, with an open copy of Velikovsky's work on his desk. Attempting to cast doubt on the information presented by destroying the public opinion of the presenter is a tactic that has been much used in history. Do the research yourself, and then declare me wrong with an actual foundation of evidence. If you cannot or will not do this, then you illuminate the callousness of your inner structure.

[ January 17, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: silentwolfxvx ]

[daniel]

silentwolf,

once you stop being "there" and start being "here", then you can be Pahana for yourself - go to the Hopi and walk among them, stop Peabody from taking their water, rather than conjecturing some imaginary "50-50" split as to whether or not this or that may occur. In other words, make the change you want to see in the world, then we won't need to talk about some hypothetical consciousness shift - we will be it, instead.

There is still a deep-buried passivity in your perspective, and numerous misunderstandings - but I am not saying you are a "nut," not at all. I appreciate your perspective, as well as the information you are offering us. However, you seem to be very reactive in your understanding of the essential nature of my post and others (another sign, I hate to tell you this again, that you ain't "there").

[silentwolf]

It is quite difficult with words to express our individual paradigms. I can say with certainty this, however; my world view is based upon my firm belief that all which I perceive is purely delusion.

[silentwolf]

Yes, I can recommend quite a few books that are really excellent on the matter. "The Pocket Book of Tai Chi" is a good one; I can't remember who wrote it or published it, but it has a good description on how to perform "bone breathing" in it. That exercise is fantastic for increasing your sensitivity to subtle energies and the amount of it. "The Complete Book of Zen" by Wong, Kiew Kit is another excellent text; however, his followers really closely resemble a cult. www.ymaa.com (http://www.ymaa.com) is Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's website. His school is based out of Boston, MA. He's really the best the western world has ever seen. "Qigong: The Secret of Youth" is one of his best texts, once you understand the basics of Yi Jin Jing (muscle/tendon changing.) It goes into Xi Sui Jing(Brain/Marrow washing) in some detail, but gives fantastic instructions on "Iron Shirt" and "Golden Bell" training, which were developed by Da Mo during his period of staring at a wall in a cave. Yi Jin Jing trains the body and charges it, and Xi Sui Jing trains the grey tissues and charges them. "Shaolin White Crane" by Dr. Yang is also another good text. I'd also recommend "Essentials of Hypnosis" by Michael D. Yapko, Ph.D., published by Brunner/Mazel. "Clairvoyance and Occult Powers" by Swami Panchodasi, published by the Yogi Publication Society is a hard to find, but worth the effort, text. "The Secrets of Eagle Claw Kung Fu" by Leung Shum, published by Tuttle is another good text on Yi Jin Jing techniques. "T'ai Chi Classics," translated by Waysun Liao, published by Shambhala is one of the best guides to cultivating internal energy(chi) and turning it into force(jing) ever written. Notably, it's considered to be one of the minor texts in the study of Taoism. "A Complete Guide to Chi-Gung" by Daniel Reid, published by Shambhala is another good work. "Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism" by Lama Anagarika Govinda, published by Weiser is also an incredible text on the details of the human energy system. "Taoist Yoga," by Lu K'uan Yu, published by Weiser is another excellent text. Osho's "Book of Secrets" is one of the best books on methods for sublimation ever written. Finally, "The Psychic Vampire Codex," by Michelle Belanger, published by Weiser, is another excellent book on practical energy applications. "Zen and the Martial Arts" and any of Bruce Lee's collection of notes are good to read for understanding the mindset it takes to manipulate energy, as well as "The Cave of Poison Grass," ugh, can't find that book to give you the author's name, but he's a Rinzai monk from Japan. Soon enough, you'll be able to add the book I have almost completed to this list as well.

[silentwolf]

This energy is called a lot of things; chi, prana, the spirit of god, orgone, ether: I'm sure that there are many more that I don't know of. For me, I found the most increase when I practiced daily for 8 hours straight for 30 days. I had practiced it daily for a couple of hours for about 3 years before that, but during that period, it was just like I had a sudden leap and went from being able to simply feel the energy to being able to literally see into my body with it. It was like someone had poured neon blue into my bones, and they were lighting up the room. Since that point, I've been able to manipulate it, patching up injuries in other people's systems and pouring it into people to help them physically heal faster. The most interesting experience I've ever had with it was when I assisted a woman in a coma to stir from it to speak with her daughter one last time before she died; that experience was kind of frightening because after she slipped back into it, she kept dragging me into her space and asking me what was going on, and what should she do. I knew when she had died because she returned my energy to me and told me to tell her family she loved them and she felt ok with where she was, though it wasn't what she expected. The best advice I can give you is to practice Five Gates Breath (instructions below) all the time, and you'll gradually increase in sensitivity. There are other exercises, but you really can't perform them right until you can literally see, hear, and feel the energy.

In the body, there are Five Gates, at the palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and the forehead. Up until seven days before you die of old age, you unconsciously inhale energy into these points from your sphere(Aura) which flows through meridians, channels and reservoirs, and is used by the body to replenish and heal itself. This same energy is taken in on a limited basis by the air we breathe, water we drink, and food we eat; we also have a small store of a potent supply of this energy which we received from our parents at birth.
The trick is to focus with the inhales of your breath upon pulling this energy into your body through those Five Gates. It will feel like a slight tickle at first, or a whisper of wind; as your flesh begins to become saturated with it, you will notice sensations like a slight electric charge, warmth, or bugs crawling on your skin. This is normal, and is a good sign that you are practicing properly. When you exhale, do not try to blow energy back out through these gates; simply relax. With each inhale, inhale energy, and each exhale, just relax. This exercise can be practiced constantly, even when you are asleep. After a few months of practice, you should begin to notice that even when you're not focusing on it, and even during your exhales, you can feel the energy flowing into you. Practice this exercise without stopping, as much as you are able, but do not expect anything in particular or any particular outcome. Keep your mind on the experience of inhaling energy, and you will progress naturally.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Mo om doctor?

Mpski

[RemainsOfAFallenGod]

Hey Pat. It's Aaron. Finally joined the forum. anyways, this is my username on here, thought id let you know. anyways, im going to go read up into some stuff on here.
cya

[zonabi]

i'd just like to add, that i'm one to vouch for the 'god' is everything ideal.

althought, i dont think 'god' would have any real set plan, a definite path for things to take.

firstly, i see 'god' now as the creational force (or energy) that abounds the universe.

in that respect, it is like 'god' would be the ultimate liberator, the balance, or the fulcrum of the universal balance.

not good or bad, not positive or negative.

because if 'god' created this entire place, do u think 'he' would have any bias ? would he really try to make everything good? if so, why would evil even exist?

thats why i think its more a creational force that doesnt play sides, the ultimate liberator, as author Stuart Wilde would say.

'he' puts forth (creates) infinite possiblities for fragments of 'him' (us, beings) to undergo transformation.

even destruction brings forth new creation, thats why ive began to think theres no good or evil, we just perceive this from our limited point of view, thanks to time.

just my rambling thoughts, im new here so hello!
z

[ps - i may used personal pronouns referring to 'god', but i dont mean to infer he is a male, you know?]

[Isaiah Mpski]

God does have a set plan.Part of it is found in the writings of Isaiah.
...and it shall come to pass in the last days,THAT the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills;and all nations shall flow into it.

[silentwolf]

Hi Zonabi, and welcome to the board!

I pretty much agree with your perception of "god."

In Judaism, there are ten names for God, and the ultimate is YHVH, which many people call Jehovah. Its meaning in Hebrew is the ultimate combination of all things.

In Tao, "god" is known as the Infinite Ultimate, which would also be understood as the ultimate combination of all things, or the point where all things become one.

In Zen, the "god" is The Void, the place where all things are, but there is no thing, because there is no shape; all things are a part of the Void and are therefore one.

In the religion preached by Jesus of Nazareth, all things are the Children of God, and equal to the Father. (Modern xtianity has skewed from this point of the doctrine, which was the message brought by "The Christ. Most modern xtianity is based upon the teachings of Paul, who says the message is that Jesus Christ died to save you from yourself, because you're an idiot and never good enough. Bow before your maker!)

The Hindus have several "gods," but it is my understanding that each of these is one aspect of the same being ~ bringing these aspects together creates unity and the one-ness.

In Shamanism, there's a lot of talk about the Great Spirit, which is the existence of all things together.

The Atlantean traditions hold firm to the "Law of One," which states that all things are one ~ and that oneness is their "god."

The term "Buddha" literally means "One with All." This state of being is considered to be the ultimate state, and the state itself is the "god" of Buddhism.

Yoga seeks to transcend the limitations of our perceptions of "within" and "without," as does Tantra, in order to understand the One-ness of all things.

In religions, you see two types of "gods." One is the benevolent but angry deity who demands obedience. These religions typically cater to the regimes that wish to maintain a firm hold upon the people, their ability to perform labor, and the resources of the land. A common term for the proponents of this type of religious fascism is "The Sons of Belial."

In other religions, you see the effort to transcend the "normal" human mode of perception, to achieve an understanding through practical experience of the one-ness of all things. The "Sons of Belial" religions typically try to exterminate these religions because of the freedom of thought they promote; followers of these types of religions are completely uncontrollable.

A good example of this type of clashing was found in feudal Japan, as the Samurai following Shinto and dedicated to the emperor tried to exterminate the Ninja clans, who practiced Nin-Po, a form of Buddhism.

Another good example would be the Catholic Church's attempt to exterminate all tribal belief systems, both by death of those who would not convert, the destruction of sacred sites, and the introduction of words such as "pagan," which means "one who sleeps in the field" and "heathen," which means "soot-covered."

Modern days bring more modern efforts of destroying these free-thinkers; thus we have the lawsuits against the UDV, the Coptic Church, and various individuals who will practice their faith regardless of the pressure applied to them by those who would control through the application of propaganda and physical force.

[rickyhearted]

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[tana]

All those in favor of censoring chain letters, raise your hand! Or should i just ignore it?

[MidnightDreary]

I'm more in favor of decapitation, but I guess censorship/banishment would be sufficient. I would assume that the earlier concensus regarding censorship on these boards would not apply to this type of excrement.

[silentwolf]

I'm with you, Midnight. And I think the law is of equal exchange...not "to receive you must give" because in fact, you must in first receive to be enabled to give! If you factor in the whole thing of ownership (who has the power to maintain control over the goods?) and its ultimate impossibility, then none of us can give or receive anything(except maybe for sexual favors) so what's the point in trying?

[Isaiah Mpski]

Yes for blessings and good luck send me your money.

The Lord

[nanouk]

I'm in for sexual favours! no, sorry, it is a brain damage from living here for 11 years...not even in a 'young' nation like america have i ever heard of anything as such. chain letters sucked even in my early teens...erm...1982 onwards...e-bay is turning evil, ppl use their customer's/sellers addresses for their devious gains....

good night, peace, tolerance, truth, and above all...love to you all,

~n~