Open Questions

[hiosoy]

Hey, first of all this is my favorite site now that I've found it, so thank you. I have a few pretty open, possibly subjective questions. First I'm wondering what the occult view on nature is, it's place, use, and so on, more from a magick standpoint than wiccan. Second I'm wondering how you guys think the astral plane fits into what psychadelics can show you. Just generally looking for theories, thanks.

[Halfglass]

Hiosoy: I've had about 10 out-of-body experiences (without chemicals) and I've been pondering the same question. In the out-of-body there are different "locals" as Robert Monroe called them--that aren't as alien as the psychedelic's. I've had OBEs where I was hovering over my sleeping body (local one), and I've been to "local" two and three, which seem to be real realms--other inhabited worlds or skewed versions of earth. Although I'm still working on what I think the connection might be (if there are any) between psychedelics and OBEs, one area to look at is the way one sees in these realms. In trip trances the other worlds are seen with a peripheral third eye view, where the out-of-body view, at least when you find yourself still in your house, seems to be a clearer, detailed one. In lucid dreams I've done experiments; knocking on trees to test for "hardness" or inspecting flecks of paint on a window frame or cinders on a road and it always seems that I can see as if I had brought my physical eyes along, just like the OBE. This leads me to believe that OBEs might be more closely related to dreaming--which doesn't negate their realness--but in the idealism or perhaps immaterial philosophy side of thinking, dreams, lucid dreams and OBEs, may be our own created worlds "thought" into existence or worlds overlaping others' "thought up" worlds, which would explain (perhaps) the very real feeling sense that one is talking to Other when dialogue with Them takes place. This speculation becomes convoluted in the end...paradox, because the road seems (to me) to lead to all-is-one, and so ulimately everything we put in order, and write down, is "intentional folly" and we have to laugh like the Buddhist who realizes no words are the answer to the question.

[ July 12, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[paul]

im reminded of gurdjieffs 4 ways/paths...

OBEs/lucid dreams correlating with the path of the yogi and the building of the astral body (indeed the world of thought, the realm of psychic attack n a lot of the nasty stuff that takes place)

....whilst the use of psychadelics would seem closer to the path of the fakir and the birth of the immortal star body (true nature)

all being layers of the one reality, of course.

"i am the god of heaven and hell, and all between"
- the holy koran smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[ July 18, 2003, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: paul ]

[Halfglass]

Paul: Monroe reported wrestling with beasts and such, but it never happened to me. Yes layers of one reality! Here's another, "When you have denied even the least of your brothers, you have done so to me." (Jesus) I wonder if religions might have been crafted by enlightened people who figured the average person was so pitifully incapable of "getting it" that they stuck in stuff like hellfire just to get people listening. So what is the deal with the astral realms as being dark then?

[hiosoy]

That's an interesting observation there halfglass, gives me more to think about. Paul I've never read anything by gurdjieff, can you tell me a bit more about the birth of the immortal star body and the other 2 paths, or suggest some reading?

[daniel]

hiosoy,

as to your first 2 questions:

1. the magical view on nature is that it is a kind of symbolic alphabet (and/or art project )of the spiritual hierarchies. The physical world is a language of signs. In one of his endless books, Steiner talks about different aspects of the physical world representing acts of higher being: Heat (or fire) is sacrifice, water is renunciation, air (or wind) is bestowal or granting - and now I can't recall what earth is.

2. I think the astral plane is what you visit through psychedelic visions, especially ayahuasca. Outside of the physical realm, what we see in these other realms is conditioned by what we think and expect to a large degree - it is much more mutable and responsive to our impulses. The astral realm is the place of dreams, desires, and also diseases. A lot of diseases originate (often through karmic factors) on the astral plane, then get transferred to the etheric and physical body over time. This is the domain in which shamanic healing works - the shaman in trance can perceive the deformations in the astral body and work to correct them through sound, prayer, breath. smoke. etc.

[clarkboy]

7/20/03 10:39 PM

Rehabilitation from alcoholism is one thing that a truly great writer should know absolutely nothing about. They should never feel the need. Oh, if life were only so simple. A prime directive, common parlance amongst many of those who have sought relief from the undesirable effects of alcohol, as well as refuge from the alcoholic self resistant to change, a catch-phrase from the community of souls tired of a perceived drubbing states, "Walk the walk. Talk the talk." Inasmuch as writing is like talking, it is probably pretty good advice for a writer regardless of his past relationships with the bottle. Therein lies the rub. Everyone has a story to tell. Some walk. Some roll. Some don't get around much. Most of their stories are forgettable to everyone but the teller. Alcoholics Anonymous can be a lot of storytelling, and for a writer or anyone else, it sucks to be ripped-off at a swap-meet.

I lost all my navigational tools through the use of drugs and alcohol at an early age. Maybe something so bad can happen at a good time in a person's life. I hope it plays out that such is my case. I'd have to fathom that the tools I lost weren't the original set I was born with, I mean there were reasons why I turned to drugs and alcohol as a kid, but I buried that shit and had compiled an impressive array of instumentation, enough, I figured, to last me more than a lifetime. I guess life turned out to be longer than I thought. They say, "Time goes fast when you're having fun.". When my shit fell apart, time stood still.

The Surgeon General should state, "There is truth in wine." on every bottle, and it wouldn't hurt to caution about the truth contained in a wide variety of substances these days. Perhaps a commonly found label might state; " The truth contained herein is an admixture of an impermanent and imperfect nature- not to be internalized". Seemingly every skill I learnt under the influence of drugs, which was about everything one might expect to learn between the ages of twelve and nineteen cowered, crumbled, and died one summer night in the face of what I at the time took to be the absolute truth. That truth ends up to be the same insular, boozy, violent, authority I've been fighting with fire ever since.

In the course of those naïve, youngblood years I trod a lot of miles to assume my place as keg commander. I ate the pills, dropped the hits, walked through bonfires, and racked up about as many injuries as I dealt out. It's not all I can say, but it is something I can say from old experience, and that is, "When you find the set and setting, don't get lost in it. Tomorrow is another day no matter how far-off." No doubt there are some pretty charred Berkley Radicals out there. If you can say, "Today is my set, and all is my setting.", and be confident of the gain of your endeavor, then spread the blessings you hopefully receive, but if you go to trip with trepidation, before you do, look at the means and the purported ends and question both. A dervish and an englishman were discussing the merits of gin. "It kills a lot of people- from concussion" they agreed.

Today, my best friend is a squirrel with a broken leg. He is pissed off, but more than that he is embarassed. "How could I have been so stupid?" he asks. Fucking Peregrine Falcons are a relatively new addition to our neighborhood. How would you like to be minding your own business and be attacked by the equivalent of a falcon? You get right at it with some of the shit and you might find out. Do that shit in the shade. My buddy has a long rehab in front of him. I was pissed about the falcons. They are just about killing machines. I saw one cruising low over my yard and I went for a run with my shades ON. I spotted about four. I was Big Brother to a falcon . Of course that's all ridiculous, and my sister hates pigeons so I do too, but on the railing of the bridge over the river, there was this pigeon being nice. He was saying, "Those falcons suck ." My dude with the broken leg, he is hopefully in a carefully shrouded observation post. He is a decorated veteran with meritorious service awards, like jungle boogie. Jungle Boogie.

[paul]

halfglass/hiosoy

i think its less about the astral planes being dark, than the fact you may run across someone/thing dark..or that has dark thoughts.

gurdjieff labeled the way of the monk as the first path..trying to live as a spiritual person in the here n now, in this body.

the forth way was his name for his own teachings- a combination of the other three (although all three overlap to a degree in their teachings,anyway)..

gurdjieff saw his way as more suitable to those living the day to day life of the west..as unlike the other 3 paths it doesnt require renunnciation or asceticism.

the star body is the idea that we all have a specific location in the cosmos..one point where we each "sprung" into origional existence..the path of the fakir entails relinking with this point resulting in a form of gnosis.

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[El Eternauta]

I my self had some random astral projections during the course of my life (with out chemicals) and also a lot of lucid dreams, and I can tell you they are feel very different.
Astral projections they feel almost more real that normal reality, I could not do much wile outside due that I was floating like a soap bubble, I remember that the things in my room were full of light and that there was some type of music in the background.
For what I understand the astral plane is the world of energy and thought, before anything becomes matter first starts in the astral.
I had a friend that was a very good astral projector and told me a few things that you guys will find interesting; in how wrong patterns of thought could have terrible consequences.
My friend X told me that in many of his astral projections he saw many people in the street walking surrounded in flames like burning he was very puzzled about it then he realized or they told them that these people were Christians.
Seems like in the astral plane your thoughts become your reality or can influence in grate part that world, if you have the belief that you are a big sinner and when you die you will go to hell and burn for eternity, well you will go to the hell of your own creation.
This story of his razed a flag in my mind, in the importance of cleaning up our sub-consciousness of all the garbage implanted there, not only for our earthbound life but also for our afterlife.
He also told me he was attacked once or maybe saved he is not sure, upon projecting this big man jumped on top of if pushing him into his body.
And the last interesting story he told me was an experiment he was doing: before going to sleep he will get a deck of cards and will pick one at random and place it on top of the counter with out looking and the when he projects will try to go and see it (to verify it was not a dream)
Well to his puzzlement the card was not the same, but here is were it gets interesting he began to notice that the card will be the one he will put the next day??? It happen every time.
Seems like time in the astral plane is not linear either.
Daniel what is Dream yoga exactly? is there any good book about it?

[Halfglass]

El Eternauta: Interesting. The astral plane is something so important to the search, that I wish everyone interested in psychedelics would have at least one. I find that even among cellar-shamans, if they've never had one, there seems to be a "Right. that's cool...so you had an OBE. Anyway what was I saying..." attitude. The idea that worlds are created by thought is where I've been doing alot of thinking lately. I saw a "Lake of Fire" with burning Muslims in it! But I never got the feeling that it was a place I was detined to end up. I enter these realms (astral and psychedelic) as a naturalist landed on a new planet. I take notes in the face of anything scary or not--of course if I can't take it after a bit I move around and discontinue my "research". (The point there is there's alot of books saying all kinds of things that seem superfluous to investigation, and aren't saying much apparently from experience as from notions that happen to come along.) We need working theories based on tenacious observation. Although I like what some of the idealists are saying, I don't have the sense that I have "thought up" these realms either (especially when I have been floating in my room and saw my body, one time even reaching back with my astral arms and feeling my beard stubble on the physical's face!). The astral planes, in my working theory, are the overlapping thoughts of everyone, a realm of endless potential, and yes there are hells there self-made I'm sure. Robert Monroe talked about rescuing people caught (after death) in belief systems--religious mostly--within "bands" of different frequencies, and taking them to a "waiting area" which was a resort-like place, untill they could be "deprogrammed".

[ August 03, 2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[hiosoy]

Daniel that's a really interesting idea about nature being a symbolic alphabet, who's ideas do you find more plausible Crowley's or Steiner's. I haven't read Steiner yet, but I've heard they differ slightly in some areas. Thanks El eternauta, I've never heard of anything like that before, shows the use of having an open and compassionate mind.

[Z]

Although I do not know much about astral planes, I seem to recall that there are quite a few, around the number of seven. I'd just like to clarify this for whoever may be new to the topic - certain posts could lead someone to believe that there is this earthly world and then the astral world, when, i think, the material plane is one of the several astral planes.

[daniel]

I don't know about there being "7" astral planes. I am really interested in the relationship between the Mandelbrot Set and the Tree of Life. The Mandelbrot Set shows a Tree of Life without Kether, emanating from Daath (Knowledge/Abyss).

Each "Sephiroth" contains an entire tree of life within it - hence, a fractal, endlessly recursive.

So I think the word "planes" like the word "dimensions" is too full, and we will have to replace it with a concept more like interval. There would then be an infinite number of intervals within each Sephiroth - these also perhaps being something like vibrational patterns or frequencies.

[Z]

daniel, actually, I just did a web search, and it seems that many occultists or new agers or what have you (the sort of people who regard the idea of astral planes as having any validity) speak of seven planes. Here they are - sometimes they appear in reverse order:

1. physical
2. astral/emotional
3. mental/manasic
4. buddhic/intuitional
5. atmic/spiritual
6. anupadaka/monadic
7. adi/divine/logoic

Note: the second plane is astral/emotional, so I could very have been wrong in my statements - maybe seven planes in all, with one of them being astral? I just looked at a few more pages, and it seems that they may be referred to as the 'seven astral planes.'

[StSimon]

Originally posted by daniel:
The Mandelbrot Set shows a Tree of Life without Kether, emanating from Daath (Knowledge/Abyss).
I never noticed that, but absolutely. Some oral teaching I've gathered off an old kabbalist friend of mine holds previous creations that weren't quite up to snuff, so YHVH disposed of them -- in DAATH. Around the time I was reading 'Ladder of Lights' (a book that climbs up the Tree of Life) by William Gray, I was also reading many popsci books on superstring theory and parallel dimensions. One description that really stuck was of extradimensional space curled up at every point of our familiar 3d geometry. Somehow all this reading developed a cosmology describing a "perfect" 10 dimensional world that cracked into a 4d spacetime and another 6dimensions which contracted down to an infinite point providing the energy for infinite expansion of the smaller 4d universe. We don't travel to other universes because we are already there, but we can become aware of them. It just struck me that this description matches a "7 plane" theory: the external 4d universe and six simultaneous others.