Angels

[julonred]

Have been having frequent and disturbing dreams of angels of all sorts lately. I'm not a christian by any mean, though was raised one, so I wasnt even sure I believed in angels until these dreams. Have done limited reading about the hierarchies of angels since these dreams, but was wondering if any one had any suggestions of further readings?
thanks, julie

[Halfglass]

Hi Julie. I don't know any current books, but the Book Of Enoch, one of those not-chosen-by-god books of old, is full of angel stories. I think the word angel is but one discription of something Other. Are the angels of your dreams winged people? If so I'd lean towards the Jungian archetype explanation. I was reading an interview with McKenna in a great book called "Tripping" by Charles Hayse, and McKenna was talking about angels and Christ figures during the psychedelic state and he discribed how he handled it usually "Oh...okay...here comes the archetype! Let this go now." I had a dream years ago where I was walking with Christ through a multitude of people in a Middle East kind of setting. At the time I was reading the bible alot and I belived I had actually been visited by Christ. Years later and many strange and illuminating trips and out-of-bodies etc. I no longer give that dream much weight. Try setting up the angel figure as a dream sign, where you remind yourself all day and as you lay down for the night, that you're dreaming when you see an angel. With luck you will go lucid and be able to talk to one directly. Good luck. Later...

[julonred]

hey dan, good to hear from you. have to say i havent read the bible, or even had interest in it, in close to 20 years. i can usually pinpoint what it is my dreams are trying to communicate with me, keep a dream journal and such. my first dream was of satan (not a believer! not a believer! i have to keep reminding myself that now!). he wasnt winged, just a guy with a shirt that had ever changing images, horrible images, and man, i coveted that shirt. and i sure did love satan (not in the physical sense, i just adored him). another dream a few days later, satan again (aargh!), only this one i woke up from and couldnt get back to sleep for hours. cant even recall the dream, just the after effects, and his mocking laugh. so i wrote and tryed to analyze, and thought about my dark side, etc and so on. then another dream of an angel, only this one beautiful and winged, butterfly wings, and as he unfurled them, i brought down the rain, and it was like acid rain, melting his wings. he cried and i looked on feeling nothing. so now i'm reading some essays of steiners and others, and expecting to have some more dreams. now that it seems to be a recurring theme, i can concentrate on the lucidity, as this happens often to me. i get a theme going, get lucid, learn something, then move on to another recurring theme. though the more i read about angels, the more i'm beginning to believe that just by recognizing their existence, they will show themselves to us. and i dont necessarily mean angels in the biblical sense, which i know is how most people think of angels. cherubs , the seraphims, archangels, etc. i just know the dreams have awakened an interest, and maybe they are just jungian archetypes, i shall see. and this is what i believe to be true today. who knows about tomorrow. thanks for the input! havent been on here in awhile. take care, julie

[whitewave]

I used to completely discount the mystical powers of Jesus and angels as delusions, so disgusted was I by how Christianity had blinded its followers over the centuries. For awhile I was really into the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail, which basically says that the crucifixion was a conspiracy theory enacted by Jesus and his followers in which they co-opted bits and pieces of the religion around them (i.e. the myth of the dying gods Bacchus and Osiris for Jesus) in order to consolidate their power against the Roman Empire. I thought the immaculate conception was a joke and couldn't believe anyone fell for it, as well as the resurrection. At the time, I was deeply under the spell of materialism, while trying to rebel against it. I suppose psychedelics were what led me out. I now believe that Jesus was a master who was aware of what we are all discovering now--and was able to move between the material and energetic planes, and that angels are just as real as we are. It is wonderful to have faith restored after so many years of scoffing at "miracles," a word which is all wrong since it implies something far beyond the ordinary, when angels are just as ordinary as you and I. We need a whole new vocabulary to restructure our thoughts! Any ideas on what our language will be like once the transformation happens? On how we can help it along its way through words now? Virginia Woolf's The WAves comes to mind, as do Cage's Mesostics--but how to communicate in the meantime without losing all comprehensive ability?

[Halfglass]

Whitewave: Perhaps the New Language will be one that is mastered intuitively--even a kind of "Oh right! I remember now!" I had a trip where I was floating in a chamber (closed eye trip) and I came into a scene where there were these grub-like things sqirming in a pouch of light. A being/beings(?) began to explain that these grubs were The Unborn (humans) and they (the being/s) "said", "Isn't this nice? How we can explain this without words?" And I suddenly realized that I was "hearing" them/it with direct ESP (for lack of any better term). The exchange was so perfectly natural that I hadn't even realized I was "talking" in that wordless way.

[paul]

i,m oftan amused the way certain people will seek out the most obscure buddhist or hindu metaphysical texts but seem unable or unwilling to read the bible or quran in a similar context. these are also instructional texts.

perhaps not so surprising though, given the way christianity is generally taught. christian rituals are of course a form of ritual magic, sadly most of the priests performing them seem unaware of their true significance.

halfglass...you dont find people wordlessly talking as you walk down the street or go about yr everyday business??? i do. i,d discount them as "voices in the head" except, they provide information that is new to me and oftan answer questions/points i,m actually pondering. try a few experiments in a stoned or unstoned state.

maybe this should go on the dreams thread, but i,d just like to add, early christianity also stated
god has both a male and femine aspect.

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[whitewave]

Remember the angels in the great film Wings of Desire? How they were able to enter into the thoughts of people as they wandered the streets of Berlin? I have begun to think lately that none of our thoughts our our own, in the sense that we generate them out of our selves--they are simply passing through, using us as vehicles of expression. As a writer, I worry about the limitations of the written word. What would a telepathic book be like? I guess books would disappear if we communicated telepathically instead of through speaking. Music is a bridge it seems--bands like Sigur Ros and Cocteau Twins that make sounds that sound like words, but have no correspondent meanings--aside from what they convey through feeling.

[Woodpecker]

Julonred, thanks for sharing the angel and devil dreams. They gave me a morning dose of weirdness that inspired me to go back to bed and sleep a little longer. The devil with the changing shirt and the angel with dissolving butterfly wings dissolving in acid rain. Those deserve to be in a movie somewhere.

Of course, writing is cheaper than filmmaking and the movies are in our minds.

Maybe all books are already telepathic.

Whitewave, right on about ideas passing through us.

I've been playing a bit recently at the border of creative writing and visual art: the domain of concrete poetry, where the visual appearence of the poem on the page is significant to the meaning, as a way to try and stretch the possibilities of expression. The following text came out of an attempt to reproduce the visual and semiotic effect of the onset of a shot of ayahuasca.

((()))
(((())))
((((again))))
((((here))))
(((here (we))))
((here (we (go))))
(here (we (go (dancing))))
(here (we (go (dancing) with)))
(here (we (go (dancing) with) waves))
(here (we (go (dancing) with) waves) again)
((we (go (dancing) with) waves) again)
(((go (dancing) with) waves) again)
((((dancing) with) waves) again)
((((with) waves) again))
((((waves) again)))
((((again))))
((((here))))
(((())))
((()))

[Halfglass]

Paul: What kind of experiments? Woodpecker: That effect on the words made me feel strange! They "feel" like the onset of salvia too, and the rush I've had on disassociates (when your ego is being spread like peanutbutter over a piece of bread-- ()(()) ((oh)) ((oh no)) (((Oh No!))) (((hold))) ((((HOLD ON!)))) (((I!)))) ((((I can))) (((Do this!)))) (((())) ((())) (())) (()) (() ()) () Cool stuff. I like the way you start out with ((again)) first and then catch up to that word later--that's what it's like isn't it? Speaking of disassociation...Whitewave; The idea of our thoughts not really being ours is something I've had to confront after my experiments--though not necessarily "not ours", thoughts are certainly an orchestra of related selves issuing out together, the parts making the whole and calling into question: Who is doing the thinking?

[ April 09, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[julonred]

woodpecker, your poem was beautiful, with or without salvia. we are still limited, in writing, by what is available to use to create our words, punctuation. typewritten words, especially, are so cold to me, so impersonal. i find i express myself more thoroughly when writing by hand, and can add color or doodles, etc.
another dream of angels, this time i am a sort of warden of a prison of heinous criminals. new prisoners laugh at me when they first come in, because i'm petite, harmless looking. but as i float towards them, a few inches from the ground, and then lay my hand on them, instantaneously giving them peace of mind, taking away their criminal thoughts, they look at me as their saviour. unseen angels tell me that the gift is from them, and that they are returning, and that i am to "herald the message of their return" (their words, not mine.
communication has always been an issue for me, from childhood. in keeping my thoughts and voice to myself, i have created a vivid inner world and imagination that i have difficulty expressing. even the simplest concepts are hard for me to convey to others. when on lsd and able to telepathically communicate with a good friend, i was finally liberated, then pissed when it was over. when sleeping and dreaming i look for others in the scape to communicate with, if possible. i can often reach old friends, who call me or email later to say they had the strangest dream of me. for me, dreaming is a valuable method of communicating, with the living, the dead, and Others. no rules.
from some recent reading of angels:
"...let me define angels as those forms, images, or expressions through which the essences and energy of God can be transmitted. more succinctly, an angel is a form through which a specific essence or energy force can be transmitted for a specific purpose. the image or form of an angel is a creation of inspired imagination that is built up in group consciousness over the years by those who have visualized angels in a particular way....those in previous generations who were the builders of the angel forms may well be today the enthusiasts for ufo's. ufo's and attendant phenomena have unquestionably galvanized the imaging energies of people all over the world, much as angels did several hundred years ago. biologist-writer ivan sanderson suggested the ufo's come not from another planet but from another set of dimensions. that, sanderson concluded, is why we have not been able to catch one. so when the ufo forms travel into our space operating according to another set of laws, people see them differently, but the imaging power of the beholder always determines what is seen....angel forms are the result of myth-building; they provide a story, metaphor, or symbol through which the essences and energy force of God may be expressed. according to william irwin thompson, myth in this sense is "an imaginative description of reality in which the known is related to the unknown through a system of correspondences". primitive peoples mythologized what they observed in the processes of nature. that is how the legends of angelic activities associated with the moon, sun, stars, and weather came about. the stories may have been fanciful, but in order for people to live with the inexorable processes, personalizing of the phenomenon was necessary. and this ancient method of humanizing the elements helped them become aware that there was something out there like the beneficial care of God in nature. author a. clutton-brock told of being in the maritime alps one june and discovering a spring in the shade of a chestnut tree on a southern slope of a mountain. "then i knew suddenly how southern people had come by their myth of the water-nymph. standing myself in the blazing sunlight, i almost saw a water-nymph among the waters of that shade. water nymphs had always seemed to me frigid, unreal fancies; but now the spring in its shadowed beauty and contrast with the parched heat of the mountain side, became alive, became almost a person. it was not the legend of the water-nymph that brought her to my mind, it was the life and beauty of the stream that almost brought her to my eyes. the stream seemed so clearly to be occupied with a lovely, friendly business of its own that i almost saw a lovely friendly creature doing it". (g. don gilmore)
this ties into a study by kenneth batchelfor, an english psychologist, who was doing some work in paranormal group dynamics. "in a series of papers, he demonstrated how a group of ordinary people, by learning a special psychological skill, could levitate objects and produce other remarkable physical phenomena. he held that the kind of phenomena produced was based on what the group expected and believed was possible. several researchers from toronto extended his work, setting out to create a "ghost", using his special group techniques. they published their findings in a book, "Conjuring up Philip". philip was an invented personality whose story was made up and then experimentally "believed in". though only an imaginal entity, he took on a life of his own, producing highly localized sounds in a variety of physical substances, levitating objects, and responding intelligently to questions in line with his fictional personality. "there now seems enough empirical evidence to prove it is possible for a group of individuals, by inventing a myth (a story in images) and practicing a special group dynamic (believing, expecting, being spontaneous, and so forth), to create an independent psychic entity with the ability to "do" things we can only call "paranormal". (michael grosso)
and in the opus sanctorum angelorum, angel devotees are invited to name their own guardian angel. this is critical in co-creating an angel. it is a way of personifying and thus shaping a channel to the inner potentials symbolized by the guardian angel.

scattered, i know, but i thought all interesting.

[Hazz]

Julonred: I believe that there is something to the idea of a collective consciousness, when it unites and believes truly in something, being able then to do "unnatural" things. I read a trip report where a guy and his buddies were putting their hands in a fire without injury by everyone thinking the same thoughts,that the fire was harmless. Unfortunately it ended with the guy jumping into the fire. His friends swore he wasn't burning untill one of their girlfriends screamed and broke the spell, whereapon the guy was burned pretty badly.

[sukiblue]

just wanted to say I have really enjoyed reading all of your 'angel' and 'language' posts smile.gif

peace

[Woodpecker]

Hazz, I knew an Ecuadorian shaman named Celso Fiallo, who knew a Mexican shaman named Aurelio Diaz Tekpankalli. Celso told me that one time the two of them were at a ceremony on the coast of Ecuador and a woman brought her sick baby to Aurelio for healing. He said the baby was chilled, so he took a glowing ember from the fire and put it between his lips. Holding the baby, he exhaled and blew a stream of hot air past the ember to warm the baby.

Celso asked him about it afterwards and Aurelio said he'd been initiated by "fire men" of a tribe, or several tribes, in the USA. The initiation was as follows. First, five years taking care of the fire in Native American Church peyote ceremonies. Then, the graduation. They tie you to a tree, build a fire in front, and begin to feed you peyote. You say things like "The peyote is up to my knees." They feed you more. "It's up to my chest." They feed you more. "It's up to the top of my head." You're ready.

The fire men begin to work with the fire. "Fire is friendly," they say, picking it up. "You can eat it," and they eat some of the embers. "It's good to lie in," and someone lies in the fire. Finally, when you're convinced, they pick up some of the coals and rub them on your chest... you're convinced... you're a fire man.

I take the story you quoted as, in essence, independant confirmation of this one. There's a lot in the literature of shamanism about the shaman's "mastery of fire."

[Buzz]

Woodpecker and all,

Your stories remind me of something about a movie I once saw called, "the Glassblowers or Herat". it is a documentary about a family of glassblowers in the village of Herat, Afganistan. It took place before the USSR invaded.
In the film the gentlemen would sit very close to the glory hole (an oven filled with molten glass) with very short blowpipes (about 20 inches long as best I can remember). All natural ingredients were bought from folks in their village who collected them (silica from rocks, flux, etc...). These ingredients were placed in the glass oven to be melted down. To test and see when the glass was properly melted and mixed, one of the glassblowers stuck his blowpipe into the molten glass, pulled it out and actually pulled a string of molten glass from the blowpipe with his bare fingers. Amazing. To my suprise, when the movie was over I mentioned this act in front of several students and absolutely no one remembered seeing it.

[daniel]

William Irwin Thompson is interesting on the relation btw "angels" and "angles" - that angels were seen, in olden alchemical times, as aspects of the mathematical ordering of our physical reality. There might be an angel of Pi, an angel of Phi, an angel of gravity, etc.

Lately I have been musing a lot on Rilke's Duino Elegies, inspiration for Wings of Desire. It is worth a read if you don't know it - the poems are very much about the attempt to contact the "otherness" of higher hierarchies of sentience. "Every angel is terrible," he writes. Here is a bit:

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angel's hierarchies?
And even if one of them suddenly pressed me against his heart,
I would be consumed by the strength of that stronger existence.
For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror
that we are still just able to bear and we love it because
it so serenely disdains to annihilate us.

Definitely, for me, certain shamanic experiences imprinted the truth of this. The question of how to approach "the other" - as supplicant, as junior partner, as detached magician, as priest? - remains crucial to the pursuit of this path.

[Woodpecker]

I must have been subconsciously attuned to Rilke and the alchemists when I studied Geometry, because I distinctly remember thinking many times, "Every angle is terrible."

Seriously, though, it's nice to read the Duino Elegies quote.

"the image or form of an angel is a creation of inspired imagination that is built up in group consciousness over the years by those who have visualized angels in a particular way.... the imaging power of the beholder always determines what is seen."--Gilmore, as per Julonred

I have a very specific example of that. Once at the home of Cesario, the Secoya shaman Daniel visited, Cesario accompanied me in another hammock as I drank yage, three cups over the course of the night; he drank one and went to sleep. At one point he woke up and began to sing, then said to me, "Look, there they are." I looked where he indicated, up by the roof of the hut, and saw the legs and feet of three robed female angels as they drew upwards through the roof and vanished. The next year I asked C what he had seen, and he replied that he'd seen the sky people he always sees: many tiny, multicolored people with multiple crowns.

The spooky thing was, earlier that night, while he was still asleep, I'd hallucinated a semi-transparent, red devil dancing on the lawn 30' away, and the next day he said, "The devil was here last night, wasn't he? And he was dancing right over there, right?"

Yipe.

I can't take either of these visitations at face value. I feel like whatever was happening, I only was aware of a tiny slice of it.

I had a dream about an angel one time. The dream I'd been having ended abruptly and I was looking up at the blue sky where a radiant angel with multicolored wings was hovering. Suddenly I felt a severe impact on my belly, and my eyes flew open: my mother's cat had jumped down on me from a ledge 5' above. Ridiculous but true.

"We need a whole new vocabulary to restructure our thoughts! Any ideas on what our language will be like once the transformation happens? On how we can help it along its way through words now?"--Whitewave

I've wondered some of this, myself--another confirmation of your point that our thoughts aren't really our own. Sometimes I run up against the limitation that my grammar and vocabulary aren't able to express what I'm perceiving. Other times they seem to fake it pretty well, in the same way as it's possible to make a pretty good sketch of a horse with a piece of charcoal, even though the end product doesn't run.

I wrote a couple years ago, "The cosmos is a carnival engaged in a giant game of tag and enjoying itselves immensely." "Itselves" is altered grammar intended to reflect the fact that that the cosmos is at once single and multiple--like us, as Halfglass perceived so strongly in the trip report he posted recently, when he had those odd, reverse-time dialogues with the "other" (yet not other) selves inside him.

Someone reading this while stoned would also notice that "itselves" also reads as "its elves." "Enjoying its elves immensely."

Shaman's songs, when they verge on glossolalia, sound meaningless to those who aren't on the wavelength, but to the singer, they're "new words, technical words," in the words of the Secoya intellectual Celestino Piaguaje, describing the very precise energies and thoughts the shaman is channeling and moving though.

James Joyce's Finnegans Wake is full of "new, technical" words. He wasn't satisfied with words that had previously been used. They didn't say what he wanted to say, so his book is mostly in a kind of four-dimensional dreamspeak which he invented. Good fun, and very deep. McKenna was a big Joyce fan.

[sidecross]

Marshall McLuhan as well as Joseph Campbell were both James Joyce scholars.

Campbell and Henry Morton Robinson wrote A Skeleton Key to Finnegans Wake in 1944. It remains a masterful help and guide to Joyce’s monumental work.

[julonred]

talking of angels to those around me, children and grown. maybe asking more than "talking", angels are a subject not normally discussed in our everyday lives, with every day people. i want to know if there is belief, what lingering thoughts from childhood are still there, of guardian angels and the such. i have heard "i havent given them much thought", or "i wouldnt want to think that there were (angels)". my dreams have awakened me, have not just opened the possibility, but have opened an invisible doorway, to which now angels are appearing to me in my waking state. flutters of wingtips on my car window as i drive, glimpses in the corner of my eye of comforting shadows. silently assuring me "we are here, we are always around you, and your belief is all that is needed". i would imagine that all this should have me questioning my sanity, but oddly enough, i feel that i'm simply re-remembering their presence, not felt since i was a child. that "these things that live on departure understand when you praise them; fleeting, they look for rescue through something in us, the most fleeting of all, want us to change them entirely, within our invisible hearts, into, oh endlessly - into ourselves!" (rilke) that is it!

[julonred]

"Definitely, for me, certain shamanic experiences imprinted the truth of this. The question of how to approach "the other" - as supplicant, as junior partner, as detached magician, as priest? - remains crucial to the pursuit of this path."

i hadnt considered this question before, daniel. having studied wicca for many years, i could never get past putting theory into practice. it never felt real to me, i was never able to bring the old gods down. it was pretty, escapist thinking on my part. could never touch the gods/goddesses. too mighty for this earth bound mind? my recent experiences with the angels (and its difficult for me to say "angels") , now that theyve crossed over from my dreams to "this", have been "real". it hasnt been overwhelming, but its as if theres a push of group thought, saying "finally you see!" and "tell! tell!" but how, and to whom, without others questioning what my grasp on reality is? theres an urgency to their message, theyre coming! theyre coming! and i cant help but think apocolyptic thoughts, though it isnt frightening. it doesnt feel like a message of doom, of the end, but of a beginning. that they will be making themselves known in greater numbers soon.

Introit - opening song

in this valley of mountains,
this ocean of deserts,
we gather. we put our ears to the ground
and listen for steps. we put our eyes to the glass
and look for visions. we put our hands to the
clay and touch a swelling breast.
far out to sea someone sails.
we gather into an ear, a glance, an embrace
to receive our angels. around us they hover,
plaiting their feathers, gazing into the crystal
of the inner eye, holding the neck of a wild swan.
Ha! hear their rustle, they are ready to speak.
they tell us to press on with our questions-
to rethread our needles, wedge our clay and
prepare our canvas.
they tell us their crystal is ground in our
devotion.
the swan carries them through our clay spheres,
their braids are the layers of our colors.
our worlds are one, they say. look! they are all about us!....
weaving and dancing, afire with high heat,
pale and pearl-like, silvery, and carved like
hard wood. what are they singing?
"in art is a communion of worlds!"
m.c. richards

[daniel]

Blake said he preferred talking with devils, because the angels were all too religious.

[daniel]

julonred wrote: ""there now seems enough empirical evidence to prove it is possible for a group of individuals, by inventing a myth (a story in images) and practicing a special group dynamic (believing, expecting, being spontaneous, and so forth), to create an independent psychic entity with the ability to "do" things we can only call "paranormal". (michael grosso) "

Here we are getting at the crux of the matter as I see it. When it is fully understood that a collective psyche can cause these kind of "real effects," entities and etc., then we can try to use the best elements of ourselves - not the superstitious or fearful parts - to create in the astral realm, to heal, to directly participate in being. This is what Tibetan Buddhists do through group chanting, etc. - try to create buddha-fields. This is also what Santo Daime does - uses ayahuasca to create Mary-fields in group mind states.

An interesting question, of course, is whether "we" do this from free will - or whether the "other" (Philip or Mary or Buddha or UFO) has the real agency and chooses to manifest through us - or whether it is a kind of meeting in-between.

Castaneda thought he was dreaming of his double until Don Juan told him that actually "The double is dreaming you."

What if it turns out that virtually *anything* is possible, when belief-states are reconditioned through hypnosis, group-work, etc.? (An esoteric community in Italy claims to have achieved time travel - perhaps it is so) How do we meld all of this with the goal of achieving higher levels of consciousness rather than sinking into a lower or mediumistic state?

[whitewave]

"How do we meld all of this with the goal of achieving higher levels of consciousness rather than sinking into a lower or mediumistic state?"--Daniel

Something I think about often, Daniel. The closest I have come to an alternative way of perceiving our world is wicca, but I have always stayed away from it, mostly because the people I knew who were practicing it seemed overly concerned with their ability to control and manipulate the material world. Our planet, up until recently, has been ruled by the third chakra, which represents will, and which has its planetary center in India. Anyone who has seen the incredible yogic feats of the saddus will recognize the great force they are able to tap into, maybe in order to preserve a spiritual consciousness that has been lost over the past three thousand years. Maybe the problem of sinking into a mediumistic state will dissolve as the heart chakra of earth is awakened. The heart chakra is centered in South Africa, and while undoubtedly individual acts of revenge take place for the injustice of apartheid, the policies of the new government insist on forgiveness and reconciliation, which as far as I know, is unheard of until this time.

[paul]

halfglass

what kind of experiments? good question..personally its something that kind of happens naturally/ just comes...but try stilling the ego/ inner voice and then simply asking..projecting thoughts/questions "out there" and remaining open for a response

whitewave/woodpecker

are thoughts are not our own..simply passing thru
& maybe all books are already telepathic

just started reading future memory by pmh atwater in which she lists 3 books which predate events that later happened;

strangers in a strange land by heinlein,futility by m robertson and the narrative of arthur gordon pyme of nantucket by edgar allen poe.

futility concerns an unsinkable ship named the titan .the poe tale an act of cannibalism that later occurred to someone bearing exactly the same name.

im reminded of bill burroughs again and his concept of writing the reality script.

and all

to what extent are angels/beings of light creations of mass consciousness? in my experience there are definately some (lower?)"planes" that seem to consist of thought forms, that you can manipulate and play around on but there are definately others where everything seems much more of a given, in which i seem much more of a spectator...the latter
are usually much stronger,typically bathed in light and the sensations much more vivid.

that said, on this physical plane i definately believe we are mentally involved in its construction in some way and only just beginning to tap into its possibilities

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[ April 14, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: paul ]

[Woodpecker]

Daniel, in The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, Blake criticises angels up one side and down the other, as you know. He's very funny at it. Here's another poem he wrote with a different approach to the angel thing; it reminds me of Julonred's angels:

The Angel

I Dreamt a Dream! what can it mean?
And that I was a maiden Queen
Guarded by an Angel mild:
Witless woe was ne'er beguil'd!

And I wept both night and day,
And he wip'd my tears away,
And I wept both day and night,
And hid from him my heart's delight.

So he took his wings and fled;
Then the morn blush'd rosy red;
I dried my tears & arm'd my fears
With ten thousand shields and spears.

Soon my angel came again;
I was arm'd, he came in vain,
For the time of youth was fled
And grey hairs were on my head.

[Woodpecker]

Paul, what's Burroughs's concept of writing the reality script?

[daniel]

whitewave,

where did you get your info about the placement of the planetary chakras?

It is interesting to me you say the heart chakra is in South Africa, as I have been hearing of a new integrated youth culture there that is very spiritual-centered, tribal, and powerful. It was described to me as a phoenix rising from the ashes.

[paul]

woodpecker n all

burroughs concept of the reality script... as i understand it ..is similar to many native societys and certain islamic sects taboo/fear of photography/representational art,,,that by doing so..by making a record we are somehow "fixing" or solidifying a certain point of reality, which is otherwise in some kind of flow...and that by extention thru art/writing it is some how possible to call events/things/situations into being ("grounding them"?)..he gives the examples of a caveman/shaman painting a a successfull hunting scene before going off to hunt,,the first written languages were ,of course, pictographic (hieroglyphs)....or , more recently, the way ginsberg n the beats wrote the reality script for an entire counter cultural revolution

with typical perversity, burroughs extended this to an idea he christened haunting, most famously taking photographs n sound recording, splicing them up and then replaying them, of a newspaper kiosk in paris he disliked. the kiosk later burnt to the ground.

he believed , thou im not sure id agree, that the universe was pre recorded in someway and since "in a prerecorded universe the only thing not prerecorded are the prerecordings themselves".. that by cutting them up n manipulating them, we might be able to rewrite reality.

im reminded of the wiccan idea of sigils, but also of the fact most non monotheistic religions were oral, at least in thier early manifestations

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[paul]

whitewave
does this have anything to do with the harmonic grid??????
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[whitewave]

Paul, I don't know what the Harmonic Grid is. Fill me in. Daniel, I got my information about the planetary chakras from a book called A Handbook for Lightworkers by David Cousins, a British clairvoyant and healer, although I am a bit confused now, since I typed "planetary chakras" into Google and came up with different chakras then the ones Cousins outlines. According to Cousins, the US represents the 6th chakra, or third eye--perhaps the current actions of the US are being directed by a higher knowledge, one we cannot see yet? The city of New York represents the heart chakra within the larger system. The events of 9/11 can be interpreted as part of the mass awakening of the heart chakra on earth. As I said earlier, the heart center is located in South Africa, the will (3rd) in India, which has been the dominant center on earth for the past three thousand years, and most interestingly, Iraq represents the first, or base chakra, responsible for absorbing and transmuting negative energy on our planet. Many of decried the destruction of "the cradle of civilization," that has been going on recently, but consider this--civilization is what has led to the near death of our planet--is the death of civilization such a bad thing? I'm thinking of William Irwin Thompson's model of the development of human societies on earth here--how we are currently transitioning from a nation-state mentality to a global one. Very interesting reading for those who have not read his work. Although it would horrify many, we can thank Saddam Hussein for playing his part so perfectly, releasing so much negativity through his years of ruling by fear. I still don't know what to make of the fact that war has been the means of this transformation, since I am opposed to it ethically, but my teacher made said something that amazed me yesterday--despite the hypocrisy of many decisionmakers within the U.S. administration, and while acknowledging that the original intentions for the attack on Iraq were probably not motivated by humanitarian reasons, Bush will do down in history as the man who liberated the Iraqi people. She believes that the prayers and peaceful protests that have taken place all over the world in the face of this act of aggression, have had an effect, despite the fact that the bombs were dropped on Baghdad. As the base chakra is cleansed, the earth becomes more open to higher frequencies of light. Difficult to accept when one is accustomed to viewing all acts of aggression as evil--but maybe aggression was needed to transform civilization, a form of human bonding whose power has been based on principles of aggression. In the homoeopathic system of healing, like cures like. The patient is given a little dose of what ails them in order to regain equilibrium. Of course we may spiral more deeply out of control, we may need far greater doses of like then we desire, but I am looking forward to witnessing the effects of the cure.

[whitewave]

I forgot to mention that Cousins says that Britain represents the 4th, or heart chakra. His interpretation of how the death of Princess Diana functioned as a mass awakenening of the heart chakra is an amazing read. I read it on the website www.kingmaker.net (http://www.kingmaker.net) I think, but if you can't find it type David Cousins into Google and you'll find it in one of the first couple of entries for his name.

[dragonfly]

My search for “planetary chakra” took me to a Web site featuring the ideas of Robert Coon (www.gcircle.co.uk/glastonbury/pnj/pnjcard.html). I had never heard of the planetary chakra idea before, but it makes sense if we think of the earth as an organism.

That Coon referred to his idea of energy patterns as “the Planetary New Jerusalem” (borrowing perhaps from the Book of Revelation via Cayce?) made me recall the observances I posted a while back about the weird cosmic symbolism surrounding the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. For example:

* Debris from the shuttle carrying Israel’s first astronaut fell on, among other places, the Texas town of New Jerusalem.

* The same day as the shuttle wreck, strange things were happening near a village called “Nuevo Jerusalem” – New Jerusalem – in Chiapas, Mexico. The U.S. State Department that day issued a travel warning for Chiapas after a couple from Idaho were forced off their ecotourism ranch by Zapatista rebels from Nuevo Jerusalem. That afternoon, an earthquake of magnitude 5.8 struck Chiapas, not far from Nuevo Jerusalem.

* Chiapas is home to Palenque. When we trace Coon’s chakra/gate energy line as it enters North America, it moves from northern California, where Mt. Shasta represents the first chakra, to Palenque, which represents the eighth gate.

* Minutes before the shuttle broke apart over Texas, people in northern California reported seeing strange light phenomenon surrounding the shuttle. An astronomer in San Francisco took a photograph that showed a purple lightning bolt hitting Columbia at about the same time its sensors began to fail. Scientists speculated that the bolt might be one of the upper-atmosphere electrical phenomena known as “sprites,” “blue jets” or “elves.”

* The day after the wreck, what was reported as a “swarm” of earthquakes hit the San Francisco area.

Could the planetary energy flow and Columbia disaster be somehow connected?

[Woodpecker]

Daniel wrote: "julonred wrote: ""there now seems enough empirical evidence to prove it is possible for a group of individuals, by inventing a myth (a story in images) and practicing a special group dynamic (believing, expecting, being spontaneous, and so forth), to create an independent psychic entity with the ability to "do" things we can only call "paranormal". (michael grosso) ""

William Blake again: "Every thing possible to be believ'd is an image of truth."

Whitewave wrote, "Although it would horrify many, we can thank Saddam Hussein for playing his part so perfectly, releasing so much negativity through his years of ruling by fear. I still don't know what to make of the fact that war has been the means of this transformation, since I am opposed to it ethically, but my teacher made said something that amazed me yesterday--despite the hypocrisy of many decisionmakers within the U.S. administration, and while acknowledging that the original intentions for the attack on Iraq were probably not motivated by humanitarian reasons, Bush will do down in history as the man who liberated the Iraqi people. She believes that the prayers and peaceful protests that have taken place all over the world in the face of this act of aggression, have had an effect, despite the fact that the bombs were dropped on Baghdad."

Blake wrote, "Without Contraries there is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence.

"From these contraries spring what the religious call Good & Evil. Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing from Energy."

(From "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell," about 1793)

[ April 15, 2003, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

[paul]

whitewave n all

the harmonic grid is a propsed (bio?)energy grid that encircles the earth..somewhat like a tertahedron in shape ..and links all the various power points (portals) on the globe...sacred sites such mecca, stonehenge,the pyramids etc etc..

certain theories postulate that there is a war going on.. between those trying to open/balance these power points as the earths base vibration rises... and those trying to close or distort these energies for thier own puposes (the true "vested interests")

personally im still kinda sceptical/undecided about the war theory...thou i was in bodhgaya,india the january before last, when there was a rather nasty psychic spat between rival tibetan sects...the result left the dalai lama in hospital and his powa teaching for that year cancelled...my feeling of the vibe was that the bad guys won, at least temporarily

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[sire_012]

the harmonic grid is a propsed (bio?)energy grid that encircles the earth..somewhat like a tertahedron in shape this sounds like willhelm reich's idea of the orgone. a field of energy the encircles the earth that feeds off/in to us and vis a vis. according to this theory if our personal orgones are suffering (through sexual hang ups, blockages, armor, etc) than that would draw and strain the world orgone, and accordingly, if our orgones are booming, so would the collective orgone.


certain theories postulate that there is a war going on.. between those trying to open/balance these power points as the earths base vibration rises... and those trying to close or distort these energies for thier own puposes (the true "vested interests")after the 9/11 attacks there was all sorts of numeralogical hemming and hawing in the occultnik circles. of course the dominant point of conviction that we were under psychic attack was that there was a flight numbered 93 involved. 93 being crowely's number of the aeon, which, as far as i can tell has everything to do with the upsurging of the kundalini force, the unshackling of hangups, the igniting of the chakras, and - unfortunately - all the devastation that is going to have to come with that. it seems a quite poetic coincidence that the first major inclination of this was the toppling of the 2 towers... anybody who is familiar with the tarot will recognize the heavy handed implications of this. and of course, one of the manifestations of the Tower card in the tarot, is the emanation of the Eye of Shiva, the mind blowing orgasm the 'topples the tower', and destroys illusion. so we have a strong indication of the rising global kundalini and chi (orgone) there, and then couple that with J.M. Jenkins theory of 2012s conjunction of masculine/feminine energies for the galaxies first intercourse in 26,000 and you've got quite a bit to nibble your pencil about it seems.

cheers!

[paul]

shiva, with his trident,of cousre, being the hindu personification of the entity monotheistic religions refer to as satan

personally, im a little uneasy with the anthropomorphic perspective on the universe..thou id agree with jenkins underlying assertions (ie. the reunification of the male and female aspects of the one)

having spent 7 years of the past decade in southeast asia ...id only add that if the worlds to follow the same path india has for the last few years...with the rise of the extreme right wing bjp and shiv sena party (who openly model themselves on adolf hitler)...then we,re in for a rocky few years indeed

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[paul]

an interesting "scientific" article on alpha brain waves and the harmonic grid/schumanns resonances from the current issue of nexus magazine

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/Schumann.html