Entheogens and Institutional Authority

[Mars]

Is it a gross oversimplification to state that the reason why psychedelics are outlawed is that any experience that unqualifiably bestows a spiritual experience without a priest, Imam or Rabbi threatens religious institutions, and by extension governmental institutions, because it confirms beyond a doubt that one does not need an intermediary to connect to the divine?

[sidecross]

Is it a gross oversimplification to state that the reason why psychedelics are outlawed is that any experience that unqualifiably bestows a spiritual experience without a priest, Imam or Rabbi threatens religious institutions, and by extension governmental institutions, because it confirms beyond a doubt that one does not need an intermediary to connect to the divine?


No!

(These are the extra letters needed to give a direct answer; it is absurd that a two letter word by itself can not be accepted as an answer!)

[craazyman]

Yes, it's not only an oversimplification but I don't think it's got anything to do with that. I think there was a general sense in the late 1960s that too many kids were going off the deep end with this stuff & that some sort of control was needed for public health. I think this continues to be the broad view of society at large.

This is not to say I agree or disagree with that position, or that other quite legal things aren't much more risky, or that the culture that instituted these restrictions in and of itself was sort of insane. These are other arguments entirely.

But I don't think the motive has anything to do with organized religion's wish to exert a tyranny on consciousness. The laws that restricted these things were quite secular in origination and arose from local and federal legislators.

[Mars]

What I've always found curious is that drugs like alcohol and tobacco, drugs that do nothing whatsover to impart a sense of connectedness, healing or epiphany and yet that wreak far greater havoc on young people's health and well-being are not only not illegal, they are in fact massive cash cows. Which suggests to me that the undercurrent of enforcement isn't health, it's state of mind. How would you describe the "deep end?" Was it real or something manufactured? I'd love to understand better what the perception of these drugs was during the 60s. It seems to me that the crackdown was not about the impact they were truly having on young people, but a fear of what MIGHT happen if they weren't controlled. If they were legalized, I suspect they would have been integrated into society in a much more mature way, that a respect for their potency would have arisen by perforce and a period of cautious and sober experimentation could have emerged. Or maybe it was just too much change too fast and our societal mechanisms couldn't adapt, incorporate.

[sidecross]

From my personal experience a 400mcg dose of LSD you are on your own.

During the darkest moments of my experience Buddha, Jesus, and any number of gurus would have been of no help.

I would dare say LSD at this dose no two people would share a duplicate ‘trip’.

[suebee]

well, the question really is why arent drugs legal at this late stage?

i think its money, money, money, money....

hemp at least. arnie is talking about legalizing it in california. paper, cloth, rope, etc.

speaking of lord hemp, this is a dramatic silence! :errf:

[craazyman]

In reality, I was too young in the 1960s to understand in real time what was going on regarding the drug situation, but I think that the "deep end" was the emergency room visits and other forms of psychological self-destruction that people wrought upon themselves from use and abuse of some of the drugs. Not everyone by any means, but enough for society to take notice.

Alcohol and tobacco can certainly be devastating too, but the time frame is considerably more drawn out. And I wouldn't say they don't promote a sense of connectedness. Certainly hanging out at the local pub having some cocktails and smokes has forged many friendships, arguably 'though without the epiphanies of man's role in the nature of things.

That's a interesting point about what might have happened had drugs been integrated into society in a mature way. But it seems the concept of maturity is the independent variable. Nearly all societies seem to have their deficiencies. I doubt anyone on this board would long endure the day-to-day totems and social taboos, the constricted and rigid social structures, the lack of personal freedoms, the prisons of circumstances that are rampant in the majority of "shamanic" societies who've integrated drugs into their eschatologies and cosmologies. It's the tribal mind that's the problem, in all it's variegated forms.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Please CM(and I know you're not) tell me you're not referring to US Indians.
Or better than that do what I told you to do with the Chinese embassy.

Yes,for all of you out there who wonder,yes Christ is alive and back again.He has a head injury but hopefully he will overcome it.If he can't then I'm sure God will send another to take his place.

[craazyman]

Oh, not by any means, Isaiah. Not all. Just some. See, I take a vantage point on these things that's blind to all the usual categories. I just look at what they do--Not what they say, or what they look like, or how tall they are, or what the anthropologists say, or whether they put bones through their noses, or brass nose rings, or whether they build pyramids or teepees or banks, or what the politicians say, or what anyone says. Just what I see, looking clearly, plainly and without distortion. LOL. Channelling the gnostic Christ within.

-Lord Camp

[Isaiah Mpski]

Then logically CM,the next time is to recognise that periodicaly there are times in which one has to make fateful decisions about how he or she should or should not due..
Take Noah(know all) for example.
Moses(MO says) for another etc and so on and so on.


To me CM,as I climb to the top of the pyramid again(which is life)it is about conqueoring my part of the world.
It is about money CM and how quickly it can get things done.That is why I ask you to visit the Chinese embassy and show them the farm,part of which is for sale or rent.
The Chinese will soon-with a little luck on our side-make up one out of four tourists to our land:the land of the American Indian.
The Chinese are communal enough and have enough money that they can afford to provide their tourists witha reasonable place to stay and transportation.
As you can see on any map,our location-basically Checotah,lies at the intersection of Interstate 40 and Hgh 69 to Dallas.

I went to the embassy in Houston but they were far to busy to see me.

[Charlie]

Mars,

I would have to agree with CM; society has traditionally viewed psychedelics as "having no medicinal value"; in the sixties, national figures like Timothy Leary telling students to drop out of school had to ring some alarm bells for parents as well.

In the end, though, I´m afraid the Big Money determines what will be legal or not. If the NRA or Philip Morris suddenly decided LSD could bring in 500 million a year, you´d see it in the supermarkets with a warning label on it.

As an aside to Isaiah, I appreciate your comments the other day about my legal well-being, so to speak. All that is finished, I´m a free man. A few months in a German prison will really straighten your head out, whether you like it or not. Maybe someday I´ll tell the whole story, but it doesn´t seem to fit the billing of this forum.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Charlie,
Good to hear from you outside of jail.
Yes any sort of city,county,state,federal,secret,jail will alter and change your view of reality.
THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS I HAVE TRIED TO GET ACROSS TO THIS GROUP.IF ONE OF US GETS THE DETAINED,THE REST OF US HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY GET OUT SOON AS POSSIBLE.jUAN COULD POSSIBLY GET LOST OR HURT IF INSTITUTIONALIZED.OF COURSE SOME ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE IN ANY OF THEM AGAIN NOR WOULD I DO NOTHING LESS THAN MAKE INQUIRES INTO BR OR SISTER SO AND SO.
gOTT MITT UNS.