Back on the Forums/Rick Strassman complaint

[Xael]

I tried to put this in Science and Shamanism section, among others, but for some reason, I was not allowed to post there...

I've been away from the message boards on here for a while, mostly because I've decided that I am not going to buy into the kinds of "drug elite" theories that people tend to throw around here. I don't think that just because someone takes mushrooms a few times, they are superhuman and more "aware" than anyone else. I can appreciate the possibilities talked about on these forums, but I think you can live just about any "reality" you choose to mold for yourself, including one where you think that taking LSD and reading books about time and space escalate you above the rest of humanity. It can be helpful and spiritually revitalizing, but that's about as far as I'm going to go with it.

I just wanted to lay that out before I went on...

The main reason I'm posting this, though, is that I recently skimmed a bit through Rick Strassman's "study" in his popular book titled DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and I found myself much less amused than I had been the first time around.

I remember reading many things on the internet about this book, mostly people praising his "discoveries" in the book. However, after going over the general idea of the book and reading the overview of the book on Strassman's website, it seems to me like this book is nothing but a subjective rant about nothing of value.

In the book, Strassman studies the effect DMT has on people. He mentions how DMT naturally occurs within us...and that's basically where the objectivity ends. Strassman gave intravenous doses of DMT to many patients and recorded the results. He said that much of the set-up of the experiments was based on his relationship with a Zen Buddhist training monastery. This is all well and good, but what is there to learn?

Strassman reviews all of the findings of scientists before him who actually made a contribution, and then spends the rest of the book drawing conclusions based on inconclusive evidence and skewed logic. For the most part, he concludes that because the state of the body is similar in both the DMT realm and in certain other altered states, such as birth, near-death, and "mystical" experiences, that certainly DMT must be the cause of this. It says right in the overview on his website that "perhaps" this is the reason. He goes on to perform an entire array of experimentation based on a total assumption, and concludes that he was correct just because of some similarities.

He steps even farther into random territory by claiming that because it is a common occurence for people to see alien beings while in the DMT realms, that UFO sitings must be caused by accidental DMT leaks. We are left with no reason as to why this would happen, but that it just has to. This is perhaps the weakest backing behind a theory I've ever heard.

I understand that when the spiritual is approached, that straight science usually can't do much to describe it. However, this was a science experiment with spiritual tones. There is a very important statement made by science when it comes to experimentation and throwing out theories into the world, and it says that coorelation does not equal causality. Just because pieces A and B match between two phenomena, does not mean that the two phenomena are intertwined, because you still haven't explained pieces C through Z. This is the fatal flaw with the entire book.

It's a great book if you want to spend your money to listen to someone, who claims his ethos just with the title of doctor, rant about uninvestigated ideas about a psychedelic, simply based on the human tendency to romanticize experiences and the concepts of long dead philosophers. However, if you are looking to learn about new material discovered in this field of study, this book will be nothing but a frustration to the eager reader.

It's dangerous to assume an authority role in the field of intellect and then toss out inconclusive theories to countless numbers of people who believe anything that favors with their experiences...

Note: As it has always been, if I have made a mistake with information, than I welcome and hope for criticism and correction so I may learn and not make the same mistake a second time. Thanks.

[ November 13, 2005, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Xael ]

[Woodpecker]

Originally posted by Xael:
I tried to put this in Science and Shamanism section, among others, but for some reason, I was not allowed to post there...Clearly, the spirits did not want that to happen.

Originally posted by Xael:
Strassman reviews all of the findings of scientists before him who actually made a contribution, and then spends the rest of the book drawing conclusions based on inconclusive evidence and skewed logic. For the most part, he concludes that because the state of the body is similar in both the DMT realm and in certain other altered states, such as birth, near-death, and "mystical" experiences, that certainly DMT must be the cause of this. It says right in the overview on his website that "perhaps" this is the reason. He goes on to perform an entire array of experimentation based on a total assumption, and concludes that he was correct just because of some similarities. I think the point is, he's arguing the case that DMT is involved in spontaneous mystical experiences--not that he's got the Truth. You must have heard of Occam's razor; you don't automatically throw out the simplest answer to a question that arises.

Originally posted by Xael:
He steps even farther into random territory by claiming that because it is a common occurence for people to see alien beings while in the DMT realms, that UFO sitings must be caused by accidental DMT leaks. We are left with no reason as to why this would happen, but that it just has to.Would it satisfy you more if he stepped even farther into random territory by leaving you with some reason why accidental DMT leaks would happen?

Strassman argues that DMT is the simplest explanation for the *cause* of a UFO experience. If you want to look for a *reason* why people should experience DMT "leaks," that is up to you.

Originally posted by Xael:
I understand that when the spiritual is approached, that straight science usually can't do much to describe it. However, this was a science experiment with spiritual tones. There is a very important statement made by science when it comes to experimentation and throwing out theories into the world, and it says that coorelation does not equal causality. Just because pieces A and B match between two phenomena, does not mean that the two phenomena are intertwined, because you still haven't explained pieces C through Z. This is the fatal flaw with the entire book. Again, I think you're asking him to do too much. Strassman's scientific method is precisely that he doesn't try to explain pieces C through Z, because the evidence isn't there.

Why do UFO experiences happen? Someone like Ramtha could probably tell you quite a lot about that! But Strassman--a scientist--isn't willing to go there.

Originally posted by Xael:
It's a great book if I sense irony coming.

Originally posted by Xael:
you want to spend your money It's better to buy books used, from Amazon.com, or check them out of the library.

Originally posted by Xael:
to listen to someone, who claims his ethos just with the title of doctor, rant about uninvestigated ideas about a psychedelic, That "uninvestigated" factor is what Strassman wants to change. The only way to investigate ideas about psychedelics is to start doing some studies.

Originally posted by Xael:
simply based on the human tendency to romanticize experiences and the concepts of long dead philosophers. However, if you are looking to learn about new material discovered in this field of study, this book will be nothing but a frustration to the eager reader.What were you imagining when you went looking for new material discovered in this field of study? What kind of book, what kind of research and conclusions did you hope to read?

Originally posted by Xael:
It's dangerous to assume an authority role in the field of intellect and then toss out inconclusive theories to countless numbers of people who believe anything that favors with their experiences...That's certainly dangerous, you're right, and it's all too common--perhaps because most or all theories are inconclusive, at least in the sense that they can't explain every single piece of data.

Darwinian natural selection "favors with my experience," and so I approve of the teaching of evolution in public schools, but to me it is inconclusive, because it can't explain to me why a butterfly's wings are so beautiful.

The phrase "intelligent design" appeals to me, but the beauty and vitality of nature does not convince me that the cosmos was conjured up out of nothing by a God who loves SUVs and wants us to bomb the shit out of Iraq.

And so we're left to sift through the ideas that are offered to us, knowing that they all have their promotors and their detractors, and that there are reasons for and against all of them.

Originally posted by Xael:
Note: As it has always been, if I have made a mistake with information, than I welcome and hope for criticism and correction so I may learn and not make the same mistake a second time. Thanks.And I hope I haven't beaten up too badly on what you've written.

I want to finish with a quotation from Strassman's introduction that, I think, speaks to some of your concerns:

"The late Willis Harman possessed one of the most discerning minds to apply itself to the field of psychedelic research. Earlier in his career, he and his colleagues administered LSD to scientists in an attempt to bolster their problem-solving skills. They found that LSD demonstrated a powerful effect on their creativity. This landmark research remains the first and only scientific project to use psychedelics to enhance the creative process. When I met Willis 30 years later, in 1994, he was president of the Institute of Noetic Sciences, an organization founded by the 6th man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell. Mitchell's mystical experience, stimulated by viewing Earth on his return home, inspired him to study phenomena outside the range of traditional science that nevertheless might yield to a broader application of the scientific method.

"During a long walk together ... Willis said firmly, 'At the very least, we must enlarge the discussion about psychedelics.' It is in response to his request that I include in this book highly speculative ideas and my own personal motivations for performing this research." (pp. xvi-xvii)

[Charlie]

Xael:

You should read my elitist posts at the Britney Spears forum (http://www.britneyboards.com/) (my screen name is TooHot).

They'll blow your mere-mortal socks off.

[ November 14, 2005, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[sidecross]

Let us have a “Be Out’, we can all get drunk and stupid together.

[Dna]

I've been away from the message boards on here for a while, mostly because I've decided that I am not going to buy into the kinds of "drug elite" theories that people tend to throw around here. I don't think that just because someone takes mushrooms a few times, they are superhuman and more "aware" than anyone else. I can appreciate the possibilities talked about on these forums, but I think you can live just about any "reality" you choose to mold for yourself, including one where you think that taking LSD and reading books about time and space escalate you above the rest of humanity. It can be helpful and spiritually revitalizing, but that's about as far as I'm going to go with it. I like this. It's a challenge. Please don't leave the board. We need lemon juice with our pancake.

Although I have an interest in entheogenic plants, I do not ingest these substances. It is just that circumstances are not right in my life. I want to and I shall. Now, I have a full plate and the vissicitudes of life are doing a great job of breaking open my head at the moment.

I like to see healthy debate, not vague consensus.

Stay with us Xael. Your presence is required.
smile.gif

Dna.

[sidecross]

'...We need lemon juice with our pancake.'

A pinch of humor is need too.

[Agent Smith]

Originally posted by sidecross:
'...We need lemon juice with our pancake.'

A pinch of humor is need too.so says the Master of the Revels...

...i've been crapping all over the psychedelic utopian elitism since day one of my visits here. and screw if ya'll don't like it.

what i find interesting about strassman's work is the fact that he admits that dmt is already present in humans. his assertion that it begins to be produced at around 49 days after conception, the same amount of time that buddhists claim the soul enters the fetus is very intriuging...

that he doesn't do more exploration of where, and how the human body creates it's own hyperdemensional fun is just plain unsexy. especially since it's something we could all have access to everynight when we dream...

oh well...

you're just not ready yet.

[Xael]

Alrighty...time for some replies...

Woodpecker: Thank you very much for spending the time you did on my entry. You were fair and respectful the whole way through. Firstly, the whole thing about the reasons for DMT leaks; if he explained why this may happen, it would be less random because he'd be backing up his theory. My biggest problem with the abduction argument was the lack of reasoning involved.

My big complaint is just that Strassman, as you said, wants to answer "pieces C through Z", but makes no attempt at it all. It just doesn't make any sense to me to write a book about how someone else should do the work yet to be done. However, I can appreciate that final quote you included about how one of the main ideas involved with the book was to increase the general conversation on the matter. The fact that he went through all of the paperwork to do government authorized work with psychedelics brings hope to those who want to know more. While that is a good thing, though, I think that the book was still more flawed than anything because if fails to deliver much of anything substantial. Thank you very much for your response!

Dna: Your response held a lot of weight with me. Thank you for understanding and motivating me to return to this board more often. I may have come off as some science nazi in my post, but I'm really not. I just have a lot of distaste for people who stray to far in either direction (science vs. spirituality). I appreciate your comment, and will do my best to return here more often. Thanks.

and finally....

Agent Smith: The 49 day coorelation argument was one of the most interesting to me as well. Of course, you have to assume that Tibetan Buddhists having spiritual visions is far more "realistic" and true than the visions of any other culture or religion to allow this point to hold water, but it is still interesting, simply because 49 is a fairly random number, and the fact that it mixes in so well with a biological factor like that makes for an interesting thought to ponder. Thanks for your perspective.

I guess that's all I can think of to say at the moment...

[daniel]

The Tibetan Buddhists are scoring some points against mainstream science these days. The Dalai Lama had an op-ed in The Times on neuroscience research, and was recently the guest star at conferences in Washington DC and Stanford. Friends who went to the Stanford conf said the scientists were beginning to admit that the Lamas knew something about consciousness - and how to interrupt suffering - that they were unable to access.

[craazyman]

Originally posted by Xael:
I may have come off as some science nazi in my post, but I'm really not. I just have a lot of distaste for people who stray to far in either direction (science vs. spirituality)I think that's a healthy point of view. A good honest critical debate preserves vitality. It's only when it descends into ad hominem insults that it gets banal, IMHO.

There's a lot of value in the scientific method. I'd be interested in seeing what it has to say about some of the claims made by shamanic practitioners (e.g. I read a book by a Sioux shaman, Wallace Black Elk I think was the name, that made all sorts of claims about physical things materializing in a sweat lodge prayer session and some of the participants--western engineers/scientists--getting totally freaked out and bolting. Hmm? I don't know about that, but maybe).

I have yet to run across much research on this, although I've been too busy with work to do much looking, admittedly.

[Ozric]

Unless I missed something its sounds like you did not read the book, but just parts and reviews. This is possibly why his tone was not felt.
I did not get the sense that Strassman was at all stating truths as he sees them or making concrete assertions. Throughout the book he is making it clear that his research is mostly uncharted territory and is feeling his way through it. I am not sure he draws any conclusions but rather offers possibilities. His point being that further research is worth the effort. His tone was of questioning and searching not of authority.

"It just doesn't make any sense to me to write a book about how someone else should do the work yet to be done"

Not sure I understand this. Seems the norm, especially where the subject has so little research behind it so far. I think his point was to be just a new beginning in this line of research (neglected for way too long ). If I remember also he made an effort to recruit others in related fields with interest in psychedelics to give their input and start the ball rolling again. He was not successful. He realized that the questions that arose where beyond him and that left him to only offer his subjective speculations.

Then again I know nothing and the more I know the less I want to know, All that I did know I cant remember now anyway. I guess I will just listen to the silence between my empty thoughts, Just a thought.

[Humming]

"Xael:

You should read my elitist posts at the Britney Spears forum (my screen name is TooHot).

They'll blow your mere-mortal socks off."

ROFL good one Charlie. :D

[forteanajones]

That book was not intended to be viewed as a large-scale investigation. It was supposed to raise questions. Strassman is very particular about following the scientific method and he avoids making claims that can't be backed up. He also stressed the need to build upon this study with other more detailed studies on at least a couple of occasions in the book. Thinking about all the researchers we could be picking on, why him, given his obvious passion for doing things right?

[ November 18, 2005, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

[Giselle62]

Although I have an interest in entheogenic plants, I do not ingest these substances. It is just that circumstances are not right in my life. I want to and I shall. Now, I have a full plate and the vissicitudes of life are doing a great job of breaking open my head at the moment.

I like to see healthy debate, not vague consensus.

Stay with us Xael. Your presence is required.
smile.gif

Dna.[/QB]Same here--

About Strassman's DMT book: haven't read it yet, but I had sort of come to the same conclusion recently, without even hearing about his book after reading piles of books about strange phenomena and asking myself why the similarities? And why have these experiences been so common throughout the ages? it does make a lot of sense. It would explain so much. It's less weird than many other theories that explain these phenomena.
I agree that many of these books are less than scientific, and, unfortunately, it seems, people into alternative ideas take some of these books as gospel. What can you do?