your religious/spiritual beliefs?

[Death_explosion]

i believe there is some kind of higher power(s) but i have no understanding of it and probably never will.there could be one god or many.i used to be an atheist but each day i see the mountains or feel the heat from the sun or feel the wind blow in my hair i am more convinced thhan ever that there is some greater power behind it all.scientific explanations aren't good enough for me but neither are the answers that judeo-christians beliefs proivde.

[daniel]

who told you you can't reach understanding of this? You can reach understanding, but you have to actually work for the knowledge, as you have to work for anything truly valuable.

I do not believe there are limits to human knowledge. Or as Steiner wrote, our knowledge suffices to answer the questions put to us by our nature.

I believe the point of my last book was to express how one might go about working for this knowledge -- at least one means. There are other ones, of course.

[C. Layman]

Daniel:
I enthusiastically read your book, and it lead directly to a fantastic psychedelic experience in the Hudson River valley. Breathtaking. Because I liked the book so much, it's important to me to say what disappointed me. This has to do with talk of "higher dimensions", of a "spiritual realm" separate from the "physical." My misgivings are political. I am a refugee from orthodox religion, and I have thought long and hard about spirituality, body and soul, etc. (One of my guides has been W. Benjamin.) I believe that, in Terry
Gilliam's words, the world is a million possible things, but I've also come to believe that it's dangerous and pernicious to rank those possible things. Consider that if you posit a cosmic hierarchy, a spiritual realm transcending the physical, immediately you'll have authorities possessing higher knowledge, and thus---power. Is that not how established religion and learning has always worked? How do we avoid it? It seems to me so simple to say: there are these other dimensions we encounter or enter in certain circumstances; they are entrancing, exciting like a country we've never visited before, though not necessarily better than our own country; we may choose a guide who knows the new country better than we do, or we may opt for the thrills of unguided exploration; there's always dangers. When we return to our native country, we often see it with new eyes. (Everyone is a potential shaman, for everyone is an expert in his or her own corner of the cosmos. Similarly, Benjamin said that everyone is a potential writer after the spread of the written world. In a community of abundance, everyone is a potential genius.)

The world, that is to say, has a multitude of mutable dimensions, no one of which is intrinsically better than any other. That's simply a statement of faith; I affirm it because it makes life and the world exciting. I can't prove it to anyone, though I can explain what I mean and how it helps me. But why say, as Steiner apparently says, that a stone has a lower order of consciousness than we do? For all I know, the stone's consciousness is superior to mine. And what's so special about consciousness anyway? I mean, its wonderful, but sleep also is wonderful. This democracy of dimensions is maybe, in the end, equivalent to what Peter Lamborn Wilson calls radical monism. The world as a million things, or as one thing. the universe in a grain of sand. (The cosmos may be all "mind" or all "matter" --it comes down to the same marvel--but a duality it ain't.) It's when the world is two things, or four, or twenty--when it has a determinate number of dimensions-- that the trouble starts, no? And you have real trouble when one realm of reality trumps another. No control: there may be intangible dimensions impinging on the dimension I'm in right now -- I like to believe that there are -- but it's not very fruitful to think that they are a controlling influence. I don't want to be a controlling influence even on myself!

[Halfglass]

C.Layman hi. If I may; Perhaps we shouldn't worry so much about power in the hands of religious persons. When we encounter TRUE revelations and visions, we intuitively gain an understanding of humblness. If those in "the know" are greedy self-serving asses, then we should know better. ("You'll know them by their fruits" Jesus said.)

And who's to say on this earth plane we find ourselves in, that we shouldn't be subject to random collateral damage i.e. car wrecks, infectious germs, animal and human attack--this place is crawling with danger! Why should we dress it up in wistful, whishful thinking and then cling to that--make then these selfmade beliefs (in "evil" for one) omnipotent and so narrow the veiw of what IS? (Pssst. You ARE "God"...get it?)

[ July 29, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[daniel]

Hi C,

Thanks for the posting.

There are so many ways to answer this - to a certain extent some of it comes down to semantics. Steiner's perspective is "monism" in fact - I strongly recommend reading The Philosophy of Freedom (sometimes published as Intuitive Thinking as a Spiritual Path). He sees thinking as part of the world, not dualistically separate from it, and the task of thinking is therefore not establishing deterministic facts but "reconciling" the realm of concepts with the realm of percepts. This is an infinite and unbounded task.

For myself, I suppose I am biased in that I think consciousness is better than unconsciousness -- and that intensifying consciousness is a worthy goal. I would rather talk to someone whose thinking is alive than someone who spends their waking hours fixated on sports and stock options. (stuck in "the mechanical part of the intellectual center," according to Ouspensky's model in Psychology of Mankind's Possible Evolution).

I also strongly recommend reading (or rereading) The Tao. The perspective of The Tao is that there is a natural spiritual hierarchy but it is not about "power" in the modern sense. In a truly humane world, "The good are the teachers of the not-so good." Those who attain understanding of The Tao "act without action," maintaining the world just through breathing.

If we completely relativize everything we kind of devalue everything, don't we?

I think in the relative world we should act to support the intensification and development of consciousness, and the positive evolution of humanity. In the absolute world, everything is, of course, totally okay, but since we have been dropped into this relative reality my intuitive feeling is that we have work to do here - and some of that work involves discriminating between positive and negative influences and forces.

To say that sleep is just as good as waking, that you don't want to be a controlling influence to yourself, that learning and "established religion" are the same -- these don't seem to me to be well-considered positions.

[toppersbazaar]

yes to say that sleep is as good as being awake must surely just have been a slip of the keyboard. Also I think it's ok to just say that as consciousness "intensifies (D)" or as i like to say "expands" it then feels more, becomes more, is lighter, and just flat out embraces more aspects of the "All That Is"...down we go to the rock and i would bet(know) that it's "consciousness" is vibrating slower intrinsicly making the experience less blissfull, less expansive. Higher vibration man
Oh to be doing your first doses again! How wonderful....enjoy Lay

[Halfglass]

Yes those first doses...tolerance is a drag. I think the rock is concious only in that it is part of the Mind of "God." In the final outcome all is a soup of atoms...actually quarks and nuetrinos and a host of other smaller things--the list keeps growing. Although somehow magically tethered to a body, our awareness is ultimately swimming in a sea of plasma. Rocks, hotdogs, cars and people are shaped and held together by electromagnetic "skirts" of force...grids if you will. (Neutrinos zip through our bodys and indeed the earth itself all the time.) Check out "Alpha and Omagea" by Charles Seife. Theres been a revolution in physics in the last two years. Anti-matter is fact; and dark matter (which outwheighs "real" matter 5 to 1.) They think they know what it is and where it is hidding--in vast halos around gallaxies..."seen" by bent light comming around distant gallaxies. (And it's not on the nightly news.) (I like to keep science aside my spiritual studies.)

[ July 30, 2004, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[sidecross]

Speaking of neutrinos, they are so small that it is said to filter them out you would need a lead barrier one light year thick!

[C. Layman]

Yes, I was sounding a bit relativistic, wasn't I? But I'm not really a relativist, not at all. There's no getting around discrimination; to desire is, after all, to discriminate. What makes me uneasy, I think, is particularly the use of the terms "high" and "low" to talk about ultimate realities. Those terms carry a heavy weight of cultural history, usually involving invidious comparisons and opression: heaven and hell, mind over matter (head over sexual organs), elites over lower classes, God above Man, and so on. These connotations are important. Maybe my working-class origins make me extra sensitive to this terminology: why is the upper class "upper?"

On the other hand, when talking about our own experiences, those terms are simply too abstract and vague to be very useful. We rely, rather, on terms like richness, vividness, fruitfulness, productiveness, pleasurableness, intensity--or dullness, dangerousness, monotonousness, and so on--the list is practically endless. So I think my question is: how useful are the terms "high" and 'low" as metaphors? Can we not often find a terminology that is even more discriminating?

Having said all that, I'm interested in what you said about the Tao, Daniel. The possibility that hierarchy needn't be bound up with power relations. . .

[daniel]

The Tao suggests that in a harmonious civilization, spiritual authority is organically recognized. Most people would not want the responsibility of mediating between planes or levels of being that is taken on by those who rule in a "Golden Age." They would be only too happy to leave those responsibilties to an "elite" of those who have done the work to align themselves with the Tao, or the Logos -- because this requires not an intensification of Ego but basically a sacrifice of it.

As Gurdjieff noted, most people do not want even the little bit of knowledge that could be available for them. This does not make them bad people, or stupid people. They have chosen a form of evolution that is not based on intellectuality. However, if the culture around them changed, their values would naturally change to evolve with a movement towards higher principles. Isn't it clear that the soldiers abusing prisoners in Iraq are responding to the psychic mood and manipulations of the leadership in Washington, which is compelling this form of debasement?

The Tao is very much a text on rulership. Here are some excerpts:

If you do not adulate the worthy, you will make others non-contentious.
If you do not value rare treasures, you will stop others from stealing.
If people do not see desirables, they will not be agitated.

Therefore, when the sage governs,
He clears peoples minds,
Fills their bellies,
Weakens their ambition and
Strengthens their bones.

If the people are kept without cleverness and desire
It will make the intellectuals not dare to meddle.

Acting without contrivance, there is no lack of manageability.

16.

Effect emptiness to the extreme.
Keep stillness whole.
Myriad things act in concert.
I therefore watch their return.
All things flourish and each returns to its root.

Returning to the root is called quietude.
Quietude is called returning to life.
Return to life is called constant.
Knowing this constant is called illumination.
Acting arbitrarily without knowing the constant is harmful.
Knowing the constant is receptivity, which is impartial.

Impartiality is kingship.
Kingship is Heaven.
Heaven is Tao
Tao is eternal.

Though you lose the body, you do not die.


26.

Heaviness is the root of lightness.
Composure is the ruler of instability.
Therefore the sage travels all day
Without putting down his heavy load.
Though there may be spectacles to see
He easily passes them by.

This being so
How could the ruler of a large state
Be so concerned with himself as to ignore the people?

If you take them lightly you will lose your roots.
If you are unstable, you will lose your rulership.




30.

If you used the Tao as a principle for ruling
You would not dominate the people by military force.

What goes around comes around.

Where the general has camped
Thorns and brambles grow.
In the wake of a great army
Come years of famine.
If you know what you are doing
You will do what is necessary and stop there.

Accomplish but don't boast
Accomplish without show
Accomplish without arrogance
Accomplish without grabbing
Accomplish without forcing.

When things flourish they decline.

This is called non-Tao
The non-Tao is short-lived.

31.

Sharp weapons are inauspicious instruments.
Everyone hates them.
Therefore the man of the Tao is not comfortable with them.

In the domestic affairs of the gentleman
The left is the position of honor.
In military affairs the right is the position of honor.
Since weapons are inauspicious instruments, they are not the instruments
of the gentleman
So he uses them without enjoyment
And values plainness.

Victory is never sweet.

Those for whom victory is sweet
Are those who enjoy killing.
If you enjoy killing, you cannot gain the trust of the people.

On auspicious occasions the place of honor is on the left.
On inauspicious occasions the place of honor is on the right.
The lieutenant commander stands on the left.
The commander-in-chief stands on the right.
And they speak, using the funerary rites to bury them.

The common people, from whom all the dead have come
Weep in lamentation.
The victors bury them with funerary rites.



37.

The Tao is always "not-doing"
Yet there is nothing it doesn't do.
If the ruler is able to embody it
Everything will naturally change.

Being changed, they desire to act.

So I must restrain them, using the nameless "uncarved block (original mind)."

Using the nameless uncarved block
They become desireless.
Desireless, they are tranquil and
All-under-Heaven is naturally settled.

38.

True virtue is not virtuous
Therefore it has virtue.
Superficial virtue never fails to be virtuous
Therefore it has no virtue.

True virtue does not "act"
And has no intentions.
Superficial virtue "acts"
And always has intentions.
True jen"acts"
But has no intentions.
True righteousness "acts"
But has intentions.
True propriety "acts" and if you don't respond

They will roll up their sleeves and threaten you.

Thus, when the Tao is lost there is virtue
When virtue is lost there is jen
When jenis lost there is Justice
And when Justice is lost there is propriety.

Now "propriety" is the external appearance of loyalty and sincerity
And the beginning of disorder.

Occult abilities are just flowers of the Tao
And the beginning of foolishness.

Therefore the Master dwells in the substantial
And not in the superficial.
Rests in the fruit and not in the flower.

So let go of that and grasp this.



46.

When the Tao prevails in the land
The horses leisurely graze and fertilize the ground.
When the Tao is lacking in the land
War horses are bred outside the city.
Natural disasters are not as bad as not knowing what is enough.
Loss is not as bad as wanting more.

Therefore the sufficiency that comes from knowing what is enough is an eternal
sufficiency.

57.

Use fairness in governing the state.
Use surprise tactics in war.
Be unconcerned and you will have the world.
How do I know it is like this?
Because:
The more regulations there are,
The poorer people become.
The more people own lethal weapons,
The more darkened are the country and clans.
The more clever the people are,
The more extraordinary actions they take.
The more picky the laws are,
The more thieves and gangsters there are.

Therefore the sages say:
"I do not force my way and the people transform themselves.
I enjoy my serenity and the people correct themselves.
I do not interfere and the people enrich themselves.

I have no desires

And the people find their original mind.



59.

In governing the country and serving Heaven
There is nothing like frugality.
Only by being frugal can you recover quickly.
When you recover quickly you accumulate virtue.
Having accumulated virtue,
There is nothing you can't overcome.
When there is nothing you can't overcome
Who knows the limits of your capabilities?
These limits being unfathomable
You can possess the country.

The Mother who possesses the country can be long-living.
This is called "planting the roots deeply and firmly."

The way to long life and eternal vision.


60.

Ruling a large country is like cooking a small fish.
When you govern people with the Tao
Demons will have no power.
Not that they don't have power,
But their power will not harm people.

Since the sage doesn't harm people,
The two will not harm each other.

Here their power merges and returns.

65.

The ancients who were skillful at the Tao
Did not illuminate the people
But rather kept them simple.
When the people are difficult to rule
It is because of their cleverness.
Therefore
If you use cleverness to rule the state
You are a robber of the state.
If you don't use cleverness to rule the state
You are a blessing to the state.

If you understand these two points, you know the proper norm for governing.
To be continuously understanding the proper norm is called Mysterious Virtue.
How deep and far-reaching Mysterious Virtue is!
It makes all return

Until they reach the Great Norm.

66.

The reason the river and sea can be regarded as
The rulers of all the valley streams
Is because of their being below them.
Therefore they can be their rulers.
So if you want to be over people
You must speak humbly to them.
If you want to lead them
You must place yourself behind them.

Thus the sage is positioned above
And the people do not feel oppressed.
He is in front and they feel nothing wrong.
Therefore they like to push him front and never resent him.

Since he does not contend

No one can contend with him.



68.

The best warrior is never aggressive.
The best fighter is never angry.
The best tactician does not engage the enemy.
The best utilizer of people's talents places himself below them.

This is called the virtue of non-contention.
It is called the ability to engage people's talents.
It is called the ultimate in merging with Heaven.



72.

When the people do not fear your might
Then your might has truly become great.
Don't interfere with their household affairs.
Don't oppress their livelihood.

If you don't oppress them they won't feel oppressed.

Thus the sage understands herself
But does not show herself.
Loves herself
But does not prize herself.
Therefore she lets go of that

And takes this.

73.

If you are courageous in daring you will die.
If you are courageous in not-daring you will live.
Among these two, one is beneficial and the other is harmful.

Who understands the reason why Heaven dislikes what it dislikes?
Even the sage has difficulty in knowing this.

The Way of Heaven is to win easily without struggle.
To respond well without words,
To naturally come without special invitation,
To plan well without anxiety.

Heaven's net is vast.
It is loose.

Yet nothing slips through.

77.

The Way of Heaven
Is like stretching a bow.
The top is pulled down,
The bottom is pulled up.
Excess string is removed
Where more is needed, it is added.

It is the Way of Heaven
To remove where there is excess
And add where there is lack.
The way of people is different:
They take away where there is need
And add where there is surplus.
Who can take his surplus and give it to the people?
Only one who possesses the Tao.

Therefore the sage acts without expectation.
Does not abide in his accomplishments.
Does not want to show his virtue.


78.

Nothing in the world is softer than water,
Yet nothing is better at overcoming the hard and strong.
This is because nothing can alter it.

That the soft overcomes the hard
And the gentle overcomes the aggressive
Is something that everybody knows
But none can do themselves.
Therefore the sages say:
"The one who accepts the dirt of the state
Becomes its master.
The one who accepts its calamity
Becomes king of the world.

Truth seems contradictory.

81.

True words are not fancy.
Fancy words are not true.
The good do not debate.
Debaters are not good.
The one who really knows is not broadly learned,
The extensively learned do not really know.
The sage does not hoard,
She gives people her surplus.
Giving her surplus to others she is enriched.

The way of Heaven is to help and not harm.