Esoteric Thought

[daniel]

This is a place for people to post their ideas and questions about esoteric thought, including thinkers such as Gurdjieff, Rudolf Steiner, Crowley, Julius Evola, and Dion Fortune. The occult perspective is that humanity has fallen from a higher state, rather than evolved from primates. A goal of human existence is to recover our connection with the lost spiritual realms.

[hmint]

Isn't the idea the 'human' has fallen from a 'higher' state rather than having evolved from a 'lowly' animal a bit anthropomorphic? Aren't these human centered ideas just the ones that need to be revised in order to shift the dominant paradigm to something that facilitates bioequality? Isn't the experience of self as animal, as nature rather than culture, the lost spiritual realm?

[ September 03, 2002, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: daniel ]

[daniel]

Hello, and thanks for your excellent post - the first one not authored by me on this new site!

Yes, the idea that the human has fallen from a higher state. with all it implies, can be considered anthopormophic, but that does not necessarily mean it is wrong. According to the alchemical tradition, man is the microcosm of the world. Steiner's book "Man as Harmony of the Creative Word" lays out a vision in which the animal species were designed to transmit cosmic energies to the spiritual hierarchies and to the earth that humanity could not supply. The cow, for instance, is described by RS as a being of "cosmic digestion," constantly spiritualizing earthly matter through its digestive processes. Humanity, on the other hand, constantly removes spiritual matter from the earth - and therefore we need the cow to do its remediating work.

"Aren't these human centered ideas just the ones that need to be revised in order to shift the dominant paradigm to something that facilitates bioequality? Isn't the experience of self as animal, as nature rather than culture, the lost spiritual realm?"

I don't think so. I think we may have to see the natural order as a symbolic representation on earth of the spiritual orders. We do need to recognize that there are many different levels of mind and consciousness functioning not only in nature but within our own beings. This requires in some sense a surrendering to what is, but it is also liberating.

You can have direct experience of spiritual realms that are far beyond the "natural" world, in any ordinary sense of that term.

[Chris]

It may be anthropormorphic to state that human beings have "fallen" into the current state, but it does not negate the reality of evolution because evolution describes the development of the physical human being while the "fall" is a spiritual path from perfection, heaven, Eden, whatever your term, to this universe. William Blake saw the creation of the physical universe and time and space as synonymous with the "fall." Under this view, the rise of human beings and the human form in the physical universe is inevitable because the human form transcends this physical universe. Educated, progressive people smugly say "man created God in his own image" but the converse may actually true, as much as the anthropomorph-haters would hate to admit. Your soul and your body are eternal forms. Your individual identity is a universal form. The "fall" into time and space is a fall from another dimension that lacks these properties. The cause of this fall is another story, and the purpose of our existence in this realm is another. But this rough, beautiful, annoying, painful, joyous, perpexling existence is validated and human beings are not a random product of DNA gone awry. Allow me to quote once more from Blake: "Eternity is in love with the productions of time."

[Julian]

Daniel,

Have you read Teilhard De Chardin?
He's the purest, most brilliant writer on these topics I have come across.

Julian.

[daniel]

Hi Julian,

No, I haven't read Teilhard de Chardin much - just dipped into him a bit. I just finished Arguelles' Time and The Technosphere, which adopts Chardin's concept of the Noosphere - we are moving from Biosphere - Technosphere - Noosphere, and the collapse of the WTC was the "inevitable event" rupturing the Technosphere and leading to the Noosphere by 2012. I know that McKenna also took the "concrescence point" from him.

What are the best books?

[Julian]

Daniel,

I've read the Phenomenan of Man and The Appearance of man, both more his palaeontological works...
The Future of Man is the one I'm ordering which happens to be out of print!
This is the one which enscapsulates his most visionary work I believe.
Also, another book out of print called The Activation of Energy which looks good...

Julian.

[jennygreentooth]

reading theories on humans physical & spiritual evolution, i become interested where each person discovered them.

of the occult works i've read, none defined a spiritual "fall" or disagreed with "man as animal" evolution.

one interesting idea i've come across is the 'rosicrucian' myth. it states that man has evolved through "tree-type consciousness", "stone- type consciousness", " elephant- type consciousness" etc; but we were distinctly human throughout.. it sees animals as our younger brothers and angels as a step above us in evolution. however, it works with the influx of time in a way that when angels had a "human- type consciousness" they were not as evolved as we. Similarly, when animals arrive to "human- type" consciousness they will be more evolved that us now.

also, it believes the "fall" of man spiritually is really just a stage of evolution designed to give us self- awareness. this awareness becomes crippling for the crucial stage when we are cut off from the "Divine Consciousness". however, everything is how it should be, for the next stage is to take that self-awareness and individuality and integrate it with the Divine. before these stages, it seems to imply we were not self- differentiated... kind of like how some people view animals or plants. but thats another story ****

i dont know if i can share a vast belief system in a paragraph smile.gif , but reading this thread caused me to wonder which systems of thought were being referred to. i am fascinated by many, some of them seemingly contradicting others.

so please state your source if you have one= so i can discover it too :<*)

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by daniel:
Yes, the idea that the human has fallen from a higher state. with all it implies, can be considered anthopormophic, but that does not necessarily mean it is wrong.I think you all may be confusing “anthropomorphism” (attribution of human motivation, characteristics or behavior to inanimate objects, animals or natural phenomena) with “anthropocentrism” (regarding humans as the central element of the universe, or interpreting reality exclusively in terms of human values and experience).

According to the alchemical tradition, man is the microcosm of the world.Just because the alchemical tradition embraced this idea doesn’t make it true. What real evidence do you have that man is “higher” than other forms of life, or the center – the “microcosm” – of the world? I think an argument can be made more easily to the contrary, based on man's destructiveness.

Why do humans assume that we’re the only beings in touch with spiritual realms? Daniel, I would have thought that your experiences with certain plants would have disabused you of this kind of anthropocentric arrogance.

[daniel]

Dragonfly,

Thanks for your comments.

Dragonfly: "What real evidence do you have that man is “higher” than other forms of life, or the center – the “microcosm” – of the world? I think an argument can be made more easily to the contrary, based on man's destructiveness."

The point is that we are not higher or lower, but we are in a different position than other forms of life. For Gurdjieff, humanity was the evolving part of the Earth. Clearly, we are a trigger species. We seem to have a much greater range of potentiality in our behavior than, say, a rabbit. We can descend to the level of animals or demons, or ascend to the level of Buddhas or Saints. In this way, and other ways, humanity is the microcosm of the universe. At the moment, humanity seems to be engaged in a "race to the bottom," to discover how low we can go. Hopefully, this stage will end soon.

Dragonfly: "Why do humans assume that we’re the only beings in touch with spiritual realms? Daniel, I would have thought that your experiences with certain plants would have disabused you of this kind of anthropocentric arrogance."

No, I would never say we are "the only beings in touch with spiritual realms." We just seem to have a larger range of options than most at this point.

As for Jenny Greenteeth's post on Rosicrucian thought:

one interesting idea i've come across is the 'rosicrucian' myth. it states that man has evolved through "tree-type consciousness", "stone- type consciousness", " elephant- type consciousness" etc; but we were distinctly human throughout.. it sees animals as our younger brothers and angels as a step above us in evolution. however, it works with the influx of time in a way that when angels had a "human- type consciousness" they were not as evolved as we. Similarly, when animals arrive to "human- type" consciousness they will be more evolved that us now.

also, it believes the "fall" of man spiritually is really just a stage of evolution designed to give us self- awareness. this awareness becomes crippling for the crucial stage when we are cut off from the "Divine Consciousness". however, everything is how it should be, for the next stage is to take that self-awareness and individuality and integrate it with the Divine. before these stages, it seems to imply we were not self- differentiated... kind of like how some people view animals or plants. but thats another story ****

This is very close to Steiner, who saw himself in the lineage of Rosicrucianism. Check out "Outline of Esoteric Science" for a baroque elaboration.

[daniel]

Dragonfly,

Thanks for your comments.

Dragonfly: "What real evidence do you have that man is “higher” than other forms of life, or the center – the “microcosm” – of the world? I think an argument can be made more easily to the contrary, based on man's destructiveness."

The point is that we are not higher or lower, but we are in a different position than other forms of life. For Gurdjieff, humanity was the evolving part of the Earth. Clearly, we are a trigger species. We seem to have a much greater range of potentiality in our behavior than, say, a rabbit. We can descend to the level of animals or demons, or ascend to the level of Buddhas or Saints. In this way, and other ways, humanity is the microcosm of the universe. At the moment, humanity seems to be engaged in a "race to the bottom," to discover how low we can go. Hopefully, this stage will end soon.

Dragonfly: "Why do humans assume that we’re the only beings in touch with spiritual realms? Daniel, I would have thought that your experiences with certain plants would have disabused you of this kind of anthropocentric arrogance."

No, I would never say we are "the only beings in touch with spiritual realms." We just seem to have a larger range of options than most at this point.

As for Jenny Greenteeth's post on Rosicrucian thought:

one interesting idea i've come across is the 'rosicrucian' myth. it states that man has evolved through "tree-type consciousness", "stone- type consciousness", " elephant- type consciousness" etc; but we were distinctly human throughout.. it sees animals as our younger brothers and angels as a step above us in evolution. however, it works with the influx of time in a way that when angels had a "human- type consciousness" they were not as evolved as we. Similarly, when animals arrive to "human- type" consciousness they will be more evolved that us now.

also, it believes the "fall" of man spiritually is really just a stage of evolution designed to give us self- awareness. this awareness becomes crippling for the crucial stage when we are cut off from the "Divine Consciousness". however, everything is how it should be, for the next stage is to take that self-awareness and individuality and integrate it with the Divine. before these stages, it seems to imply we were not self- differentiated... kind of like how some people view animals or plants. but thats another story ****

This is very close to Steiner, who saw himself in the lineage of Rosicrucianism. Check out "Outline of Esoteric Science" for a baroque elaboration.

[Frater D.A.]

Greetings Daniel,

I would like to say that I was impressed with your radio interview on Oct. 28th(except the fact that you got cut-off-what happened anyway?). It's rare that a voice encouraging self-knowledge appears on any form of mass media. I am interested to know what your opinion is regarding the modern Hermetic traditions and their role in the healing of the Western psyche. Are you familiar with the use of ceremonial Magick and Yoga to explore the nature of the Self(the Jungian Self)?
Thanks Daniel, keep up The Great Work!

[angstrom]

Hello! I am new to this board so I feel the need to introduce myself and give some advance clues to what you can expect from me. (As if anyone actually cares) I feel it necessary to try to introduce myself so that if I step on your toes or pat you on the back you will have a better relative perception of who and what is penetrating your ego; be it man, or monkey, will ultimately depend on your RELATIVE understanding of my intent or motives for posting.

In a nutshell:
I have had many conscious experiences in dimensions "beyond" the physical in the past 25 years.

In a coconut shell:
It is my feeling that book knowledge and language is only as good as the experience that it may LEAD one to. For example, a book on astral projection means NOTHING to me until I have personal experience to give the book relevance to my life experience. Until then, anything I have to say about astral projection is basically pure B.S.. Any "truths" I believe I could possibly acquire from others more experienced would also be in vein, as ultimately only my experience of leaving my body will give me any type of genuine "authority" on the subject and nothing less.

Then from that point on, reading books on astral projection will be hope filled validations that others have shared in something that I too have been witness to.

Then will come the building or borrowing of language around the experiences so that it can be orally communicated and related to from one experiencer to the other. And it must be remembered that these are ONLY WORDS agreed upon to EXPRESS experience and are in NO WAY the actual experience themselves! ex. What is the "appropriate term "sacred silver chord" inscribed in a authoritative book may be simply related to as "that white stringy thingy" to someone else and has no bearing on the validity of the actual phenomena or experience. They are just freakin' words! Their use is relative and does not invalidate OR validate any experience!

I am here to bring life into my "receptors". To explore it and define it through my own eyes, at whatever level of understanding i am at, then look around and see if others are seeing what I am seeing... and if not, point to it, and watch their reactions - or hear stories of what those before me saw and what words they used to describe it...their interpretation of what i am seeing.

In General response to this thread of posts:
I would like to say that i believe you and your assessments of your life are neither "right" nor "wrong" nor "high" nor "low", and yet I can say from my personal experience, I have clearly used such terms in defining my own life experience. There seems to be a fear of using the words "high" or "low" or "good" and "bad" etc. when attempting to place a language to our relative experiences.

Yet if one watched the sand at the bottom of a pond, and noticed a bubble emerge and then escape from the dense mineral level, he would note a "direction" of travel and may realize "relationships to molecular frequency" as the bubble found its "destiny" "high" "above"... these once seemingly anthropocentric arrogant terms could be given new life and simple RELATIVE validity - and at a certain level even considered a most beautiful poetry in all its simplicity.

Comment in relation to the topic:
"humanity has fallen from a higher state, rather than evolved from primates. A goal of human existence is to recover our connection with the lost spiritual realms"

Maybe another way of putting it would be that humanity is in a state of "separation" from its "higher" state, much like the bubble trapped under the sand.

Now the big questions arise, How did it get there? How did it get seperated or "lost"? What are the motivations, or conditions that produce movement? Is the sky "calling" for its bubble to return to its "higher" level of existence("heaven, nirvana, spiritual state")? or is it the will or even curiosity of the bubble that wiggles its way through the pebbles back to mystically embrace in union to its waiting source above? Or is it a natural law of affinities where each will plays its part equally...like attracts like.

What type of experiences can we have that will point us in ANY direction that will lend answers to such questions?

I look forward to hearing your most profound discoveries and experiences. I am all eyes and ears!

There is a vast star filled sky above and may we laugh and wonder many nights around the fire -telling stories that only we can tell.

[ October 28, 2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: angstrom ]

[Magvs]

There is a Buddhist sutta that sort of explains the evolution of humankind as beings that "tasted" the material world and became so hungry for the sensation that they brought themselves mindlessly back to this dimension for more. The more they experienceded the greater their desire and craving--the more blind they became to their prediament.

As evolution occured in the material world, they became more aware of their own alienation and suffering. The Budha explained evolution, in part, as "Interdependant Arising." Similar to Hume's idea that one action and reaction led to others which grow in complexity untill the idea of a single cause for any one thing is absurd. (Sounds a little like chaos theory)

We are not being punished nor have we been forced out of paraise, we simply have forgotten our true nature.

In research on PK phenomena at Duke university, so much data were generated that most of it lay un crunched for decades. After computing became cheap these data were looked at in depth. An interesting pattern emerged: the more random the events, the greater the impact of mind on the events or matter.

In the begining was, perhaps, the 'big bang'. The post big bang state was discribed as homogenous, uniform and undifferentiated--a totally random and chaotic event. Perhaps this was a state were Mind had it's greatest influence.

There seems to be a teleology in nature that may be the accumulation of influences of many minds and desires. (Is this LaMarcian? or is it Sheldrake's Morphogenic fields?) Wouldn't it be funny if LaMarc was right and the giraffe really has a long neck because he wanted to eat the leaves on the tree.

Perhaps we are on a decisive evolutionary course to become more God like--Gods. If this is so, then we probably have all the right biological equipment in place to fully understand an transcend this material dimension right here and now. Having achieved this state, we would have supernormal powers, but if we were to all achieve this state, we would have to agree on everything, because you couldn't have the paradox exist of one omnipotent mind disagreeing with another--then we woul be plunged back into the state of blind materiality.

Omnipotence either exists or it doesn't. If it does, then there can be only one power to coordinate the whole mess. Thus Jesus said " I do these things through the Father" He also said "Greater things than these you shall do."

We need to figure out how to do these things...

[daniel]

Frater D.A.: "I am interested to know what your opinion is regarding the modern Hermetic traditions and their role in the healing of the Western psyche. Are you familiar with the use of ceremonial Magick and Yoga to explore the nature of the Self(the Jungian Self)?"

I have only been studying the hermetic tradition for a little while. I have been very impressed and inspired by the works of Julius Evola (strange, considering his fascist links and aristo-autocratic tendencies). His book The Hermetic Tradition makes much sense to me: Like Tantric Buddhism the goal of the alchemical work is to create continuity of consciousness over waking and sleep. The "separation" is the ability to stay conscious between waking and sleep and find the "doorway" before dreaming that leads to the real spiritual realms. I suspect that this doorway is what you pass through abruptly when smoking DMT. But the "separation" is a "labor of Hercules." The automatic reaction is to jerk ourselves back to our body. If you become expert at this, you become a spiritual being able to enter realms having nothing to do with the Earth.

This seems similiar - though different in a sense - to Tibetan Dream Yoga, where you are seeking to remain in the "clear light" of conscious dreamless sleep.

I am a bit suspicious of dogma, ritual, etc., though I understand the attraction and glamour of it. I also like the philosophy of Dzogchen meditation, similar to Gurdjieff's "self remembering": Trying to reach the "primodial state" of constant presence and awareness. In this state, you would no longer need to do magic, because you would already be magic. The Dzogchen approach seems very clean to me and very Post-Modern!

[amestoy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magvs:

There seems to be a teleology in nature that may be the accumulation of influences of many minds and desires."

i saw michael moore on donahue last night ranting against the problem of violence in this nation...it was interesting to hear someone coherently and enthusiastically draw the line between mechanism and desire....even if we rid ourselves of the current mechanisms of violence (biological, nuclear, "the best defense against tyranny is a well-armed populace" etc)the desire for violence will quickly generate new mechanisms...it seems to me that this disconnect that exists in this culture between mechanism and desire is a spiritual problem...we've not accepted or taught ourselves the new testament fulfillment of the letter of the old testament law--"thous shalt not kill, steal commit adultery" beign subsumed in "i say unto you if you meditate on hatred in your heart you have commited murder'...if you cultivate an aesthetic of violence w/in your society, your society will be violent..."as a man thinketh in his heart so is he"....it's as if christ's teachings marked a new spiritual dispensation of mind influencing matter that we still have not scientifically or moralistically copped to...

you said
"Perhaps we are on a decisive evolutionary course to become more God like--Gods. If this is so, then we probably have all the right biological equipment in place to fully understand an transcend this material dimension right here and now. Having achieved this state, we would have supernormal powers, but if we were to all achieve this state, we would have to agree on everything, because you couldn't have the paradox exist of one omnipotent mind disagreeing with another--then we woul be plunged back into the state of blind materiality."

are you meaning omnipotent or omniscient?...either way i'm pretty much going with the argument that the paradox would still exist even in the la-la-land of enlightenment...it seem apparent that God has been disagreeing with God for quite some time now, wouldn't you say?....why would imnipotence quell diversity of opinion, style, prefernce among fully-developed Creator Gods...it seems to me that the sense of "play" would be heightened....have you ever seen an interview with a supposed "enlightened" being still in human form...to me they seem to giggle quite alot....amestoy
]

[alienmindscape]

Daniel quoted esoteric theory, "The occult perspective is that humanity has fallen from a higher state, rather than evolved from primates. A goal of human existence is to recover our connection with the lost spiritual realms."

Undoubtedly these esoteric philosophers have much to offer, but I don’t see the need to contradict evolution, if that is what's being done.

Here's a quote from Jung (Memories, Dreams, Reflections) which mirrors the quoted sentiment, without contradicting evolution:

"Our age has shifted all emphasis to the here and now, and thus brought about a daemonization of man and his world. The phenomenon of dictators and all the misery they have wrought springs from the fact that man has been robbed of transcendence by the short-sightedness of the super-intellectuals. Like them, he has fallen a victim to unconsciousness. But man's task is the exact opposite; to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious. Neither should he persist in his unconsciousness, nor remain identical with the unconscious elements of his being, thus evading his destiny, which is to create more and more consciousness. As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being. It may be assumed that just as the unconscious affects us, so the increase in our consciousness affects the unconscious."

I don't really see how we could conclude that we didn't evolve from primates. Our DNA is only 1.6% different from that of chimpanzees, and chimpanzees are more closely related to us than they are to gorillas or orangutans. For this reason, Fritjof Capra asserted: "If we classify the chimpanzees as great apes, then we must classify ourselves as great apes, too. Indeed, any category of ape is meaningless unless it includes humans."

This suggests, of course, that we have a common ancestor. Even more difficult to sidestep are the myriad transitional skulls demonstrating that whatever we ultimately evolved from, our current form is the result of billions of years of evolution. Further, human embryos go through stages in which they have gills. This isn't because embryos actually breath with them, but that embryonic development didn't reinvent itself in entirety, but more-or-less added stages. Chicken, lizard, fish and pig embryos all have initial stages very similar to humans, and the presence of gills in our embryonic development point to our common ancestry with fish. Our brains similarly did not reinvent themselves, but merely added new layers over the brains of our ancestors. The reptile brain is still buried in there somewhere, more or less intact.

I suppose one could say that we evolved physically in order to mirror or replicate the state we have fallen from, but that seems like putting the cart before the horse.

I would say that we don't need to have fallen from a higher state in order to reach into "spiritual realms." That reaching may be the pinnacle of the evolution of consciousness, as Jung suggests is our ultimate aim. Some of the vistas we explore may be completely novel (from the Western perspective I suppose a lot of them are).

What remains undeniable, for those of us who have had significant experience outside of the envelope of consensual reality, is that extraordinary and alien states of consciousness do exist.

~ alienmindscape

[ October 31, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: alienmindscape ]

[Mano Negra]

The above dialouge has revolved around humankind's supposed fall from grace. What if there was no fall from grace? In Varhayana Buddhism a fundamental teaching is that samsara (our everyday world of suffering) and nirvana (the deathless state of enlightened bliss) are one and the same. Samsara is nirvana. It is only our ignorance and conditioning that stands in the way of our realizing our true nature. Any thoughts?

And Daniel,
Given your background I take it you have trained in buddhism. Is this correct or not? If so, maybe if there is interest a discussion could be started on the use of entheogens on the buddhist path. Most mainstream buddhists got into buddhism because of psychedelics but most will shun away from them now (see Rick Strassman's book DMT the Spirit Molecule). Just an idea. Thanks for the great board and book.

peace,
Mano Negra

[daniel]

Mano Negra writes: "The above dialouge has revolved around humankind's supposed fall from grace. What if there was no fall from grace? In Varhayana Buddhism a fundamental teaching is that samsara (our everyday world of suffering) and nirvana (the deathless state of enlightened bliss) are one and the same. Samsara is nirvana. It is only our ignorance and conditioning that stands in the way of our realizing our true nature. Any thoughts?"

My answer to that is both perspectives might be true. Buddhism has little concern for origins or evolutionary processes or causes. All that matters is reaching enlightenment. The Western occult perspective as I understand it, is interested in causes and evolutionary processes and seeks to comprehend the purpose of the system. Gurdjieff said that one goal of modern esoteric development was to strive to learn "ever more and more" about the laws of world-construction and world-maintanence. Steiner believed it was necessary to comprehend the esoteric history of the planet to understand the meaning of the "Christ Event" and how it ushered in the modern day.

One essential difference between Western and Eastern perspectives, perhaps, is the Buddhist notion that "Existence is suffering," is not something that Westerners really accept. We are not that quick to reject samsaric existence, even when we comprehend the spiritual nature of evolution.

The implication of Gurdjieff and Steiner's mythistory is that humanity is being evolved for some purpose - to be part of the cosmic system of "reciprocal maintainance" on a higher level than where we are currently. A few human beings will reach Buddhahood and opt out of continued physical incarnation, but for most of us, we will continue through many future incarnations on the Earth and elsewhere, working on ever higher levels of consciousness and energy.

That is how I understand these ideas at this point, any way.

As for Buddhism and psychedelics, check out the new book Zig Zag Zen.

[Hurtle]

This is my first post. Hello. My name here is Hurtle.:cool:

I think I'm going to be here for a while - there is a lot to get through. Esoteric thought has been a sort of personal speciality of mine for many years. I've built up a sort of cosmology or theology or, better, a philosophy, unfortunately itys a long way out there and I get the feeling that it will remain rather private - well at least it won't be in someone else's possession ... its a cracker as far as I am concerned. The only trouble with it is that I can't pin it down very well for others, being so personal in its origins - a most frustrating affair!

I've ju-jitsued all western philosophers with it, including Nietzsche, and am left in a rather solitary place because of that. I really only have the East to go to now. Its with the east that it all started. I wanted to get around, or into, this thing of reincarnation. How does one tackle it. To cut a long philosophy and eschatology short I'd like to give a nutshell idea of what I think on the subject, but first I'd like to ask for some brief responses on what people's idea of reincarnation basically is, if i may so be obliged

Thanks,

Hurtle