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daniel
04-12-2006, 06:38 AM
this doesn't totally belong here, but i didn't want to cover up the McKenna lectures above. I found this quite a good piece from Wills - does anyone know the source of the Flannery O'Connor quotes? They are great.

April 9, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
Christ Among the Partisans
By GARRY WILLS

Chicago

THERE is no such thing as a "Christian politics." If it is a politics, it cannot be Christian. Jesus told Pilate: "My reign is not of this present order. If my reign were of this present order, my supporters would have fought against my being turned over to the Jews. But my reign is not here" (John 18:36). Jesus brought no political message or program.

This is a truth that needs emphasis at a time when some Democrats, fearing that the Republicans have advanced over them by the use of religion, want to respond with a claim that Jesus is really on their side. He is not. He avoided those who would trap him into taking sides for or against the Roman occupation of Judea. He paid his taxes to the occupying power but said only, "Let Caesar have what belongs to him, and God have what belongs to him" (Matthew 22:21). He was the original proponent of a separation of church and state.

Those who want the state to engage in public worship, or even to have prayer in schools, are defying his injunction: "When you pray, be not like the pretenders, who prefer to pray in the synagogues and in the public square, in the sight of others. In truth I tell you, that is all the profit they will have. But you, when you pray, go into your inner chamber and, locking the door, pray there in hiding to your Father, and your Father who sees you in hiding will reward you" (Matthew 6:5-6). He shocked people by his repeated violation of the external holiness code of his time, emphasizing that his religion was an internal matter of the heart.

But doesn't Jesus say to care for the poor? Repeatedly and insistently, but what he says goes far beyond politics and is of a different order. He declares that only one test will determine who will come into his reign: whether one has treated the poor, the hungry, the homeless and the imprisoned as one would Jesus himself. "Whenever you did these things to the lowliest of my brothers, you were doing it to me" (Matthew 25:40). No government can propose that as its program. Theocracy itself never went so far, nor could it.

The state cannot indulge in self-sacrifice. If it is to treat the poor well, it must do so on grounds of justice, appealing to arguments that will convince people who are not followers of Jesus or of any other religion. The norms of justice will fall short of the demands of love that Jesus imposes. A Christian may adopt just political measures from his or her own motive of love, but that is not the argument that will define justice for state purposes.

To claim that the state's burden of justice, which falls short of the supreme test Jesus imposes, is actually what he wills — that would be to substitute some lesser and false religion for what Jesus brought from the Father. Of course, Christians who do not meet the lower standard of state justice to the poor will, a fortiori, fail to pass the higher test.

The Romans did not believe Jesus when he said he had no political ambitions. That is why the soldiers mocked him as a failed king, giving him a robe and scepter and bowing in fake obedience (John 19:1-3). Those who today say that they are creating or following a "Christian politics" continue the work of those soldiers, disregarding the words of Jesus that his reign is not of this order.

Some people want to display and honor the Ten Commandments as a political commitment enjoined by the religion of Jesus. That very act is a violation of the First and Second Commandments. By erecting a false religion — imposing a reign of Jesus in this order — they are worshiping a false god. They commit idolatry. They also take the Lord's name in vain.

Some may think that removing Jesus from politics would mean removing morality from politics. They think we would all be better off if we took up the slogan "What would Jesus do?"

That is not a question his disciples ask in the Gospels. They never knew what Jesus was going to do next. He could round on Peter and call him "Satan." He could refuse to receive his mother when she asked to see him. He might tell his followers that they are unworthy of him if they do not hate their mother and their father. He might kill pigs by the hundreds. He might whip people out of church precincts.

The Jesus of the Gospels is not a great ethical teacher like Socrates, our leading humanitarian. He is an apocalyptic figure who steps outside the boundaries of normal morality to signal that the Father's judgment is breaking into history. His miracles were not acts of charity but eschatological signs — accepting the unclean, promising heavenly rewards, making last things first.

He is more a higher Nietzsche, beyond good and evil, than a higher Socrates. No politician is going to tell the lustful that they must pluck out their right eye. We cannot do what Jesus would do because we are not divine.

It was blasphemous to say, as the deputy under secretary of defense, Lt. Gen. William Boykin, repeatedly did, that God made George Bush president in 2000, when a majority of Americans did not vote for him. It would not remove the blasphemy for Democrats to imply that God wants Bush not to be president. Jesus should not be recruited as a campaign aide. To trivialize the mystery of Jesus is not to serve the Gospels.

The Gospels are scary, dark and demanding. It is not surprising that people want to tame them, dilute them, make them into generic encouragements to be loving and peaceful and fair. If that is all they are, then we may as well make Socrates our redeemer.

It is true that the tamed Gospels can be put to humanitarian purposes, and religious institutions have long done this, in defiance of what Jesus said in the Gospels.

Jesus was the victim of every institutional authority in his life and death. He said: "Do not be called Rabbi, since you have only one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, the one in heaven. And do not be called leaders, since you have only one leader, the Messiah" (Matthew 23:8-10).

If Democrats want to fight Republicans for the support of an institutional Jesus, they will have to give up the person who said those words. They will have to turn away from what Flannery O'Connor described as "the bleeding stinking mad shadow of Jesus" and "a wild ragged figure" who flits "from tree to tree in the back" of the mind.

He was never that thing that all politicians wish to be esteemed — respectable. At various times in the Gospels, Jesus is called a devil, the devil's agent, irreligious, unclean, a mocker of Jewish law, a drunkard, a glutton, a promoter of immorality.

The institutional Jesus of the Republicans has no similarity to the Gospel figure. Neither will any institutional Jesus of the Democrats.

Garry Wills is professor emeritus of history at Northwestern University and the author, most recently, of "What Jesus Meant."

sidecross
04-12-2006, 07:59 AM
This was posted on 4/9/06 under 'gospel of judas'; it is an excellent article!

snow
04-12-2006, 08:19 AM
wonderful Flannery. "Wise Blood". Hazel Motes.

craazyman
04-12-2006, 09:55 AM
A number of years ago I read an unpublished manuscript by a classics scholar that argued (convincingly, I thought) that the last sections of the gospels (my memory has faded on this, but it was something like the last supper on through) was based on the 5-act dramatic structure used by the Greeks and Roman tragedians, and that there were many stage-drama devices used in the action and pacing of the text. The kiss of Judas being one, in particular, that would have been a forceful action on a theater stage.

His theory was that the writers of the Gospels--writing decades after Jesus crucifixion--wrote based on what they witnessed in passion plays recreating the arrest and execution of Jesus. And clearly, the tragic structure itself was/is based on the early Greek dramatic model that, in turn, was based on the Dionysian death by execution/resurrection religious rites of the grain god (which Sir James Fraser famously chronicled in The Golden Bough). So there are a lot of ancient overlays here on the Jesus figure and the Jesus story.

It is remarkable in a way that someone--Jesus--who presumably had the Jewish power elite in a state of convulsion (a power elite in the pocket of the Romans and vice-versa) wouldn't even be recognized by the Roman soldiers sent to arrest him. Or even provoke the interest of Pontius Pilate. Or, if that's not implausible, and it may not be impossible considering there wasn't TV or photography back then, that they'd have to resort to the device of a kiss rather than storm in and grab him. It may be that they wanted to protect their sources and make it sneaky, but it all seems too contrived to be real history.

Apparently, the historical Jesus was mentioned only once in ancient literature outside the Gospels. By the Jewish general turned Roman historian, Josephus, who only devotes a sentence or two out of a 21-volume "Antiquities of the Jews" (I think it was in the Antiguities) to a crucifixion of someone called Jesus a few decades before. Josephus was born in 37 A.D. and died in 100 A.D. so he would have just missed Jesus time.

Wills' article is very very good.

[ April 12, 2006, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: craazyman ]

sidecross
04-13-2006, 03:39 AM
These are the letters to the editor of NYT on Garry Wills’s Op-Ed article.

If this is what can be expected from the general public, then it for sees a rather poor acceptance to daniel’s new book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/13/opinion/l13partisan.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Isaiah Mpski
04-16-2006, 05:25 AM
In reply to crazyman there are out there,letters from P. Pilate to Herod describing the physical appearance and to ultimate fate.The Essenes played a serious game,much like we are facing now in the Muslim world.
There are those,like me,who believe Jesus was in a drug induced trance and was quickly revived.The Roman soldiers there who Pilate had dispatched to make sure Jesus' body was not stolen were probably burned at the site.
The religious sects in this area-say probably the Essenes from the Quram communties were not only guerilla(sic) fighters were involved in the creation of the mythic potential of Christ.
The community at Qumram believed in immediate transmigration of the soul so that when one entered the community you were literaly surrounded by all those who had participated in the WAY up until that time.Like a Shakepearean play replete with all the prophets of old.Playing on like a band in the wee hours of the morning.Thus Jesus,while visiting the community,was bombarded by prophecy,the law.and history.
They Essenes were strict but probably planned the thing from the beginning.Herod believed he was a God and that led to the murder of the innocents.You remember Crazyman-Herod ordered all male children 2 yrs or so murdered.
In other words,they sent Mary,in her virginity to Herod or one of his most influential followers-say maybe Pantera-a Celtian or fairskinned man.
Thus Pilates description of Christ,six foot,fairhaired and balding.
Herod became obsessed with killing Christ.Christ somehow made his way to America and became entwined in Pueblo myth that leads to Quanum Parker-you know-those seven Pueblos that make up the North.I can't remember all their names.Ltes see-Taos,St. John's,Santa Clara,Tesuque,Poquae,for a start.
All in Northern New Mexico.A Great Place to go this time of the year.

[ May 15, 2006, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Isaiah Mpski ]

craazyman
04-16-2006, 09:08 AM
Isaiah, were are those farm pics of yours. Every time I go to Groups PickOverFlow I can't find any pics, just something about a guy named Pickover.

You heard the Pantera rumor circulated by third century rabbis trying to discredit the Jesus cult, saying Jesus was illigetimate son of a Roman soldier named Pantera (Ian Wilson, "Jesus the Evidence").

Don't invest in the market right now. It's gonna hit the skids this year. You can't beat T-Bills paying near 5%. The first rule of managing your money is don't lose it. Wait till later in the year, or maybe 2007. When stocks are down 30% then begin to get in, but dollar average, don't throw it all in at once. Keep an eye on FuelTek (FTEK). I like it under $14 but it may be a long wait.

michaelf
04-16-2006, 12:59 PM
Ummm... has anyone here read "The Jesus Mysteries"? by Tim Freke and Peter Gandy?

Isaiah Mpski
04-17-2006, 03:53 AM
Crazyman,
The fact that Jesus wasn't recognised maybe for two reasons.
1.They didn't want to recognise him because he had a reputation as a bad ass guy who hung around with some unsavory characters.
2.The same reason that several Christ like figures appeared after his "rising into the clouds".There were alot of wanna-bes and look-a-likes at he time.

Thanks for the advice CM and I will check out that stock.
I cannot explain the trouble with PickOverFlow.
Perhaps you have to join the group to look at the picture.
I have no trouble finding the pics as last time I looked it was the only photo album at the site.

What a wonderful time to be alive,relatively wealthy and moderately healthy.

I'm like you CM.It's hard to really predict where you put your money but you have to do something with it.

I see signs that are similar to the great depression but this time there a some good safeguards.
I like Daniel's analogy to Germany a year or so before Hitler committed suicide woven in this time to either an everlasting blueprint for the way or to an apocolyptic time for somebody.
I hope it is the former.

[ May 15, 2006, 04:57 AM: Message edited by: Isaiah Mpski ]

imported_saoirse
04-22-2006, 04:07 AM
Guys - please also Check out David Korten's new book - i was just skimming it in the store and was very impressed..and I highly recoomend the new Gary Wills book -it's a quick read, but says more than most tomes twice the length. it's also available in audio form, read by the author.

John Hoopes
04-22-2006, 11:26 AM
There was a cover story a couple of weeks ago in U.S. News & World Report about The Jesus Dynasty: The Hidden History of Jesus and His Royal Family, and the Birth of Christianity, a new book by James Tabor, chair of the Dept. of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060417/17christ.htm

I have the book but have only skimmed it so far. The premise seems to be that Jesus was political, but that Paul and his mostly non-Jewish followers sought to turn what originated as an attempt to reinstate a Davidic monarchy into a mystic, spiritual movement stripped of its original political motivation.

Axl Omega
05-14-2006, 11:39 PM
"Let Caesar have what belongs to him, and God have what belongs to him" (Matthew 22:21).

Actually my opinion is that this statement is not actually one issued by Jesus Christ himself ever but added in the 1300's by The Catholic Church like some other particular ones, so that they could achieve a higher degree of dominance over their flock.

Like the one about "If you do not hate your Mother or Father you are not my disciple" is also seemingly too contrived and convenient. Mother Mary was one of Christ's staunchest proponents and was so until the moment that she "rose into the sky" at the time of her imminent death. (Speaking out words of obedience to the Christian philosophy all of the way up)

And so actually also in my mind one of the most significant statements that Jesus ever had made, was the quote of "That I go where you my not follow". Which actually meant "that nobody should try this at home" - or that to imitate his example of being crucified would only amount to an act of frivolent blasphemy. Therefor all of those people who threw themselves to the Roman Lions afterwards - to prove their obedience to The Christ - were only trivial hypocrites in the eyes of their master - more actually. Also this statement betrays that Jesus saw himself as only a first person, (Or example) and that all others should defy the same similar threat or enemy that ever should come to them - ever after him. (Because it would only be a waste of time)

What is particularly interesting, is The New Scripture of Judas" that has recently come to light. At first I thought this was a fake document, but am now convinced that it is actally genuine for various reasons. You see that reason being because Jesus could not wait for the Romans and the Jews to make up their minds about when to execute him, so he then forced their hand. There is a specific reason for him doing that, but that is for another post.

What is the most totally funny thing about the Crucifixion, and how they sought to belittle him as a pretend King during and after that, is that he actually was the true King of the Jews at the time of his birth, when he was delivered the proof of that distinction by the Three Wise men. (As was handed down to him by his Great Uncle Moses) Who also pronounced the Jews as unworthy of being "The Chosen People" from that time onward - in that he had discovered at that time their future treachery to their own only true King and Messiah. So he then "Tossed the Arc into the Four Winds" so that the Jews could not use it.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were only an attempt to replace this "bad decision" by Moses with a false doctrine. They planted those scrolls with the future intention of digging them up near the time of the coming of The "Golden Age". In order to lay claim or reclaim to that distinction which Moses had once taken away from them. But you see, they cannot reclaim that they are still those "Chosen People" because that issue is only decided by who is in possession of "The Arc of Egypt" which is the only true deed to ownership of two thirds of the world. (Also known after that as "The Arc of Jesus")

Isaiah Mpski
05-15-2006, 04:06 AM
Have you heard of the Scientology Messiah?
Some of those in the know there hold it as Holy that the guy playing Christ in the movie The Passion of Christ was struck by lightening.To them it represented ECT and a guy in Texas who came back and murdered at least three or four of the people involved in his "crucifixion" by ECT and Insulin comas-two hundred hours and 200 ect's.
Wiseman-the head of Scientology's worldwide CCHR would know about this man but they might be trying to keep him a secret.