Rothschild Ahrimaniacs?

[Helter Skelter]

Won't Get Fooled Again?
Rixon Stewart - November 28, 2003
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1295

‘Meet the new boss, same as the old boss…’

That line, from an old song by the Who, says it all. For in the wake of the Iraq invasion, a number of factors have become all too apparent. Firstly, far from being greeted as liberators, ordinary Iraqis have come to view British and American forces as an army of occupation, as indeed they are. Second, both Britain and America are getting sucked into a conflict that is getting bloodier by the day, and could ultimately assume Vietnam like proportions. Finally, at the time of writing, Saddam Hussein has still not been found and his Weapons of Mass Destruction, which were originally used to justify the invasion, are conspicuous by their absence.

So it’s clear that Britons and Americans have been lied to. As a result ordinary Iraqis are dying and mounting numbers of Coalition forces are returning home in body bags.

As it dawns on people that they have been deceived, the popularity of Bush and Blair is sure to plummet. However this writer would like to sound a note of warning. For while there is a growing awareness that we have been misled, and as popular discontent grows, the ruling elites are already manoeuvring to exploit it. They are indeed about to use the growing unpopularity of Bush and Blair, to install their own chosen replacements.

In Britain, one likely candidate is the newly elected leader of the Tory Party, Michael Howard. He has all the credentials: he’s a skilled political orator with a sharp mind but gathering round him, as he prepares to challenge Blair, are others of a more dubious provenance.

One such is his shadow chancellor Oliver Letwin, who like Howard is Jewish. More significantly he also happens to be an acting director with London based NM Rothschild.

Now if any one family is central to the emerging New World Order, it is the Rothschild dynasty. Their enormous wealth stretches back to the 17th century, when they first established themselves as moneylenders and goldsmiths in Frankfurt-on-the-Main. Since then they have amassed an untold fortune, largely through cunning, while keeping an extremely low profile. An illustration of this was the Battle of Waterloo, where Rothschild’s agents were monitoring the fighting. As soon as it became evident that Wellington had defeated Napoleon, Rothschild’s messengers rushed back to London, arriving hours before Wellington’s own couriers. On arrival, Rothschild himself met them in London’s Stock Exchange, whereupon he immediately began selling his own stocks.

Conspicuously.

Naturally the other brokers assumed that Wellington had lost to Napoleon, and started selling their own stocks, at which point, other Rothschild agents bought up huge amounts at rock bottom prices.

Since then the Rothschild’s have not looked back. Moving deftly through the worlds of politics, espionage and high finance they have quietly built an empire founded on deceit and delusion. Augmenting their wealth from generation to generation, until they are now without doubt one of the world’s richest and most powerful families.

Moreover, their power completely transcends national boundaries. Thus Jacob Rothschild and other billionaires were on hand at his English country estate last year, to sanction Arnold Schwarzenegger’s bid for the Governorship of California – the world’s 10th largest economy.

Left to right: billionaire Warren Buffet, Arnold and Jacob Rothschild on the latter's estate last year.

Moving behind the scenes and away from the glare of publicity is essential to their success. Thus, the Rothschild’s and their allies are able to choose political leaders and dictate what direction they will follow, while the public remains blissfully unaware of who is really calling the shots. They did so in 1993 at the Bilderberg meeting in Vouliagment, Greece, when Tony Blair was invited and approved as Britain’s new leader. Thereafter John Smith, the head of the Labour Party died suddenly – and some would say suspiciously – to be replaced by the then Home Affairs spokesman, Tony Blair. Following that the ruling Conservative Party was rocked by a series of scandals, which were gloated over in the elite owned mainstream media, and which helped catapult Labour to a landslide election victory.

Now though, Blair has served his purpose and in response to increasing public cynicism, he needs to be replaced. And while the mainstream media makes much of public dissatisfaction with Blair over Iraq, they ignore the fact that Michael Howard was fully supportive of Blair’s decisions regarding Iraq.

Still, Blair and Howard aside, the Rothschild’s are the key players here. With their vast wealth they sponsor such politicians who in turn owe their positions to the dynasty, and who are therefore beholden to them. But who, if anyone, are the Rothschild’s beholden to?

"Money is the god of our time, and Rothschild is his prophet." (1) poet-philosopher Heinrich Heine.

Ahriman Incarnate

It should be noted that the Rothschild’s might be beholden to more than just money. For years it’s been rumoured that they were in league with far darker forces, which in turn helped them generate their vast fortune.

According to eyewitnesses, prominent enough to have visited one of the British Rothschild homes, the family are frequently visited by a figure from ancient mythology. It has been reported by more than one, that they set a place at their table (2) and often entertain an entity known to the early Persians as Ahriman.

Here a few words about Ahriman are in order, and what follows is largely based on the writings of Rudolph Steiner, a Christian mystic and teacher. According to Steiner, Ahriman is in his element in the material world, particularly the realms of banking and scientific materialism. Through these mediums, Ahriman strives to lock humanity in a world devoid of genuine spiritual impulses. A realm untouched by higher spiritual reality and limited entirely to base materialism, an element where Ahriman reigns supreme.

So it is no surprise that the Rothschilds, working in league with Ahriman, have excelled as bankers. It is a simple trade off: on the one hand Ahriman has bestowed upon them their financial wizardry, whilst on the other, the Rothschild’s have enabled Ahriman to extend his thrall even further. Reaching out into the worlds of business, politics, and indeed across the very breadth of human endeavour. Ahriman is active from banking to scientific research laboratories and vivisection; where animals are routinely tortured and killed in the name of scientific research – but in reality sacrificed on the altars of Ahriman’s ‘scientific materialism’.

The Rothschilds have also played an important part of the history of the Seal of Solomon, otherwise known as the Star of David. Contrary to popular belief, the six pointed star was not even considered a Jewish symbol until the Rothschilds began using it (3). Prior to this, the Seal of Solomon was used by Arab Magicians, Cabalist Magicians, Druids and Satanists. However in 1822 the Rothschilds took this powerful magical symbol for their coat- of-arms. The name they adopted for their family actually comes from the fact that in the 17th century Mayer Amschel Bauer began hanging out a red hexagram in front of their house to identify it. Mayer Amschel then decided to take the name red-schield (Rothschild in German) after the red Seal of Solomon that they used.

So it is perhaps no coincidence that Israel, which uses the Star of David as its national symbol, was originally founded with generous financial handouts from the House of Rothschild. And here the bible is explicit: the reappearance of Israel and the return of Jews to their homeland marks the beginning of the ‘end times’ and the emergence of the anti-Christ.

According to occultist Alice Bailey, an occult hierarchy has a special group which she calls “the financial group”, controlling all that can be converted into energy, and constituting a dictatorship over all modes of intercourse, commerce and exchange.” (4)

Do the Rothschild’s play a part in this financial group? Are they and their billionaire allies preparing the way for Ahriman to step on to the world stage?

It is worth pondering such questions as we approach the run up to elections in both Britain and the States. Because nothing is what it appears to be and behind the façade of normality, far darker forces may be at work. Like actors on a stage play, our political leaders may come and go. But behind the scenes, others with a darker design could be directing the political drama.

Finally, for those unfamiliar with Steiner’s work, Ahriman is more commonly known today as … Satan.

1 As quoted in Sampson, Anthony. The Money Lenders. Middlesex, Eng.: Penguin Books, Ltd., 1985, p.37.
2. Various high-ranking black initiates claimed to have seen Ahriman, more commonly known as Satan, appearing at the Rothschilds. Ahriman/Satan appeared as an extremely beautiful man, except that he had cloven hooves. He would wear a black tuxedo to gamble and play cards (winnings were sexual victims) and a white tuxedo when coming only to socialize.
3. An excellently researched book by a Christian journalist of Jewish origin is The Six-Pointed Star by O.J. Graham. New Puritan Library, 1984. This book covers the satanic/magic history of the Seal of Solomon before its modern Jewish use. The book shows how the symbol was not a Jewish symbol until recent times.
4. A Treatise on White Magic by Alice Bailey, p.412

[Lowlight]

i dont know really where to start with this, but here i go...

how about not posting racist bullshit.

If Jews are so powerful how come they lost one third of their world number in the Shoah? if they are behind the scenes of power why were they persecuted for two thousand years by the people in power? If they run things why is the UN so against them? If they control the media why is it so anti-semitic in much of its content?

Wanna see the powers of materialism and technology triumph over the innocent? then take a trip to the charnal houses of the East. Walk to Treblinka, see where christian europe, cultured Germany, science and materialism destroyed a million jewish lives.

There is no Jewish conspiracy. They are not even unitied amongst themselves as the jewish community is divided in every way conceivable, politically, socially, religiously. And by the way, nearly 80% of jews in the USA voted for Kerry in the election, so the whole Bush/Zionist idea is dead in the water.

By posting this shit you are actually rebuilding the crematoria. words create reality.

[ December 12, 2004, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Lowlight ]

[daniel]

Helter Skelter,

I agree that this is low-level garbage.

You don't want to live up to your Manson-tinged moniker, do you?

[Lowlight]

well i have checked the link to 'truthseeker' and i am not surprised. Plenty of articles on Holocaust denial (apparently only about a million jews died, most from disease and those who were shot were likely to be partisans anyway). Basically the site is antisemitic in general and provides links to know nazi sympathiser sites like the 'institute for historical review'.

why do people believe this?

[Halfglass]

Daniel you're a gas bro!

[gone]

I know that the Rothschilds have a Picasso in the toilet of their London home - make of that what you will.

[Helter Skelter]

I posted this because I thought some of the material in it referring to Steiner, Ahriman, etc. might be of interest to some.

Re: Lowlight's concerns:
This article seems more anti-Rothschild than anti-Jewish to me. Apart from the 5th paragraph where the author mentions in passing that Letwin and Howard are Jewish, the article doesn't single anyone out for being of any ethnicity. The article doesn't mention a Jewish conspiracy, Lowlight - not sure where you got that idea from. Yes, the majority of Jews supported John Kerry (also John Kerry is partly of Jewish ancestry) - not sure why you think this is significant. The two of them are both pro-war, pro-Israel Yale Skull and Bones elitists and there isn't a hair's worth of difference between the two.

One thing you stated that really offended me was "By posting this shit you are actually rebuilding the crematoria. words create reality."
You are basically blaming me for some coming holocaust on the basis of my posting an article, which is preposterous. If some idiot read and misinterpreted what I posted and decided to go out and kill Jewish people their blood would be on HIS hands and his hands alone. I am not responsible for the actions of anyone other than myself. Say I post a passionate defense of environmentalism and someone decides based on his misinterpretation of this to release a virus that will destroy the human race and thus end pollution. Am I responsible for his actions? Hell no!

And as far as the root site featuring objectionable articles, I wouldn't know about that since I haven't looked at any articles on the site other than this one. It seems insignificant to me - why not judge the article on its own merits rather than dragging other material into it? I mean, if a Stalinist website posts a brilliant critique of Bush should we discount it just because Stalin murdered tens of millions of people? I say judge everything based on its own merits alone.

[egret]

have to say it sounded pretty anti-semitic to me too. I don’t doubt that the rothschilds are rats, but that’s cause power corrupts. period. seemed right out of the protocols of zion. a hate-fueled and irrational conspiracy theory that points mainly at the stupidity of who would rather not take responsibility for their own part in the sorry state of the world .

at the same time, lowlight, your comment about the UN is, quite frankly, also insanely conspiratorial (and about the media, which is not generally anti-semitic, and as far as the press is concerned, is in fact owned by proportionally more Jews than other group). many believe the jews deserve a homeland (as the kurds, the American Indians, etc.) but know damn well that the Palestinians were royally screwed, in the WAY it was done. Israel’s founding myth, “a people without a land; a land without a people” is half true, and half a condemnable racist myth itself with an awful lot of violence bred from it. Its time Israel owned up. Fact is, Muslim empires always treated the Jews way the hell better than the Christians did in the West. There ought to be brotherhood there; there COULD have been brotherhood there (and here the Rothschilds do enter, because their money partly funded turn of the century Zionism, which like economic globalization took over Palestine legally (they bought it), and yet, immorally (because poor locals were at a disadvantage). Instead, like Rome, which got started when Romulus killed his brother Remus, there is blood at the very origins of the present Israeli state. And blood will continue to flow until they at least admit the wrongdoing. The Israeli state, like the American and the Australian, has rape at its core; I am not saying it has no right to exist; (after the Shoah it was imperative) but its MORAL existence is premised entirely on admitting what horrendous things it has programmatically and sytematically done to other human beings.

[Humming]

"So it is perhaps no coincidence that Israel, which uses the Star of David as its national symbol, was originally founded with generous financial handouts from the House of Rothschild. And here the bible is explicit: the reappearance of Israel and the return of Jews to their homeland marks the beginning of the ‘end times’ and the emergence of the anti-Christ."

This article is definitely slanted, and I think the Bible prophecy is being misinterpreted. The state of Israel is not directly responsible for the creation of an anti-christ, or the 'end times' but rather, the state of Israel is an incidental part of a bigger plan: the Christian prophecy of the Second Coming. The state of Israel exists because it is necessary for the Rapture, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and Armageddon, the war written in Revelations. This is why the US government, run by Christians, has supported Israel for so long (and, also, of course, because of its strategic significance).

The Biblical propechy, it is important to note, proclaims that during Revelations, all Jews living in Israel will convert to Christianity or be killed in the final war, Armageddon. The Jews aren't the ones preparing for a "Satanic" slaughter, Christians are, and they've been doing it for centuries.

As far as international Jewish conspiracies, I am always torn by the logic of it. I am certainly not racist by any means, and I don't believe that all Jews are evil. I believe that the Holocaust did happen, and millions of Jews were killed in the camps, just as millions of prisoners were killed in AMERICAN death camps. I also believe that IF there were an international conspiracy on the part of one group or "race", that they would sow seeds of dissent and confusion, which seems to be the case as far as "anti-semitism" which is universally reviled. That kind of strong international sentiment would be excellent protection for such a group.

For me, it's a useless question because there is no way to find an answer....

[Helter Skelter]

Originally posted by Humming:

This article is definitely slanted, and I think the Bible prophecy is being misinterpreted. The state of Israel is not directly responsible for the creation of an anti-christ, or the 'end times' but rather, the state of Israel is an incidental part of a bigger plan: the Christian prophecy of the Second Coming. The state of Israel exists because it is necessary for the Rapture, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and Armageddon, the war written in Revelations. This is why the US government, run by Christians, has supported Israel for so long (and, also, of course, because of its strategic significance).

The Biblical propechy, it is important to note, proclaims that during Revelations, all Jews living in Israel will convert to Christianity or be killed in the final war, Armageddon. The Jews aren't the ones preparing for a "Satanic" slaughter, Christians are, and they've been doing it for centuries.
There is more than one way to interpret the book of Revelation. The interpretation you are referring to, called Dispensationalism, been around for only about 150 years out of the 2000 years Christianity has existed. Historically, Christians interpreted prophecies promising glory for Israel as referring to the church, since the New Testament refers to Christians as 'the Israel of God', rather than any earthly nation-state.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."
-Galatians 6:15-16

As for the physical nation of Israel, the Bible compares physical Jerusalem to Sodom and Egypt:
"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified."
-Revelation 11:8

Physical Jerusalem is contrasted with the New Jerusalem which will be prepared for Christians:
"And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
-Revelation 21:2

[Woodpecker]

Originally posted by Humming:
"... millions of prisoners were killed in AMERICAN death camps. I'll have some of what this guy's smoking.

[ December 13, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

[sidecross]

“I'll have some of what this guy's smoking.”

What ever the person is smoking, it is not from a North American indigenous peace pipe.

It has been estimated at least two million American Indians perished because they were in the way of founding of a new nation. Some of these same people will tell you today it was a Christian nation too.

Genocide, ethnic cleansing, or the final solution are just names for the same crime. The human race has been infected with a myopia vision for a long time.

Which version of the story depends only on who tells it.

[Woodpecker]

It seemed to me that Humming was not referring to the genocide against Native Americans. If I'm wrong, I stand (or sit) corrected. "Prisoners" and "death camps" are not usual terms used to refer to the genocide against Native Americans. Humming, what were you referring to, please?

[sidecross]

This thread has become so bent; I would not even like to hear what other peoples Humming was revering too.

I have heard American indigenous scholars claim even higher numbers than two million indigenous peoples killed to form the U.S.

Whether they call them reservations, concentration camps, ghettos, relocation camps, Jim Crow, or apartheid they all are code words, to me at least, to legitimate segregation, divide people, and ultimately try to destroy them.

Hitler was just a symptom and not the disease. In fact the disease has been rampant for along time. It flourishes at the moment in Sudan.

[Rob P]

...well
let's bend it a bit more...

you don't need to kill people to
divide and segregate....

let's welcome
the 'moral values'
of amendments to the constitution
to prevent gay marriages....among other insanities.

oy

prejudice by any other name
stinks just as bad

gay is the new black

-these people thrive on undermining
the possibilities of understanding the
unity of all human beings...

isn't it amazing
how such a high percentage
of people can be so utterly
ignorant of their own ignorance??!!!!

....must be the new moon

seeya
rob

[Humming]

Let's see, American death camps.

Well, I was referring to an article I read in Disinformation's "Abuse Your Illusions" which I think is the third anthology in the series. Regretably, I don't remember the author's name or the article's title, but the book info is here:

http://www.disinfo.com/site/displayarticle14.html

He was describing information about American operated starvation/work camps housing WWII POW's which Eisenhower had informed correnspondences about. Allegedly, millions of people died in these camps, and the author related a long and rather harrowing story about how his information had been suppressed and discredited. Sorry I can't be more specific, but I read the article last year.

This should come as no suprise to anyone, however, when considering the well-known historical precedents for American death camps. Native American reservations could have probably been considered "death camps" on some level, during the Indian wars and Manifest Destiny expansionism. Guantanamo Bay today may certainly be considered a death camp; several prisoners there have died. Ditto for Iraqi prisons. I don't think I need to mention the horrendous things that we are aware have occured there.

[ December 13, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[Woodpecker]

It's a shame you can't find the source. Not even from Japanese-Americans interred during WWII do we hear of millions being killed.

In '92 I hung out one day with a guy who was a consciencious objector in WWII. They had him guard a POW camp in the US for "Krauts," as he called the Germans. To hear him--a Quaker--tell it, the camp wasn't all that bad. His main story about it was how with great difficulty he smuggled in a bottle of wine to one of the prisoners, which the prisoner gave him a lovely hand-carved wooden box for.

Because "the US" acts horribly in some situations, many of us assume "it" is acting horribly in other ones. Your post was the first I'd heard of millions of people being killed in US-operated WWII death camps. Because I have been around a while, my gut instinct tells me that that's nonsense--of course. And this is even though I'm fully aware of other US atrocities such as our support of Pinochet and the torture at Abu Ghraib and the massacre at My Lai and the Trail of Tears, et cetera, et cetera.

[Lowlight]

Helter Skelter - you have to see how anti-semitism takes form these days. invariably the people who write these types of articles have a pro-nazi agenda that is hidden or subversive. the article ends up saying jews are in league with satan, which is an old christian trick i.e. the blood libels etc. it builds up its logic along the way from seemingly harmless premises and ends up covertly claiming a jewish conspiracy which is joined to the forces of evil.

Yes Bush and kerry are in many ways the same, but its a favorite of the anti israel movements to claim that bush is a puppet for the world wide jewish conspiracy as they have 'infiltrated' the US govt. i know you didnt say anything about this in your post but i had been worked into a rage the other day when reading similar things on another site. this part wasnt directed at you. i will exercise more caution in future.

But i have to say that by posting things like this you are unwittingly aiding the neo-nazi agenda even tho like you say this was not your desire or intention. some people could read it and come away with an anti jewish feeling even tho you had no intention of this. I think it does matter where these things come from. the site from which it is pulled is anti semitic in a portion of its articles and especially some of its related sites. im not branding you a racist, just asking that you exercise a little caution with what you post as we all should. this rixon stewart who wrote the thing obviously has an agenda that is not exactly pro jewish - "it always swings back and bites the jews" is a quote from one of his other articles concerning the new world order. He also seems to have a high regard for the Holocaust denier David Irving on one of his other articles. he says that sources have told him that the rothchild family have dinner with satan - can we imagine the family letting people who were going to tell all come round for dinner with satan? the guy cannot be taken seriously.

Egret - The UN hasnt exactly been favorable to Israel over the years, and yes neither has Israel to its surrounding countries but the feeling was more than mutual. I dont ever recall Israel threatening to wipe out the entire arab world and drive them into the sea like the nations surrounding Israel did in '67. both sides are guilty of hate and death, as are both guilty of using myths.

the media may not be anti semitic in the USA but here in Europe and England that is not the case. The 'guardian' and 'independent' are particulary guilty of this in much of their writing about the middle east.

Hummming - i am against guantanamo utterly but its not realistic to call it a death camp. even most of the Nazi camps were not death camps, the vast majority were concentration/work camps. there were 6 death camps in a proper sense. at these sites you would typically only be there for less than an hour before you died. they were sites simply for killing communities by the thousand, they had no other function as work/slave/holding sites.

peace to all

lowlight

[ December 14, 2004, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Lowlight ]

[Humming]

Lowlight, you're right. Perhaps I should ammend my statement, as "death camp" is a rather extreme classification.

My point was that the United States has also, and continues to, engage in creating international atrocities. Project Paperclip hired those very same Nazi doctors and scientists who were condemned at Nuremburg...

[Lowlight]

I know, im not trying to get the US off the hook here, i cant stand the bush agenda or its war against humanity and understanding.

the genocide against the native nations is a hidden outrage that is grossly overlooked and removed from the american discourse of identity.

i guess its hard to come to terms with and so it is surpressed.

peace

[egret]

lowlight, I appreciate your comments. yeah, I can see how you can be worked up into a rage. I am too when I hear that shit. and I pretty much agree with everything you said in your last post. but I do think the context of arab hate is different from that of Israeli hate.
in the sense that the person who starts the fight hardly has reason to complain if the other strikes back. of course, the UN and Britain are equally culprits for deciding to “give away” land that wasn’t theirs to give in the first place. that is profoundly dumb, and fifty, a hundred years of warfare – and cries to push Israel into the sea – are a pretty natural outcome. Not that early Zionism was all that innocent either. ethnic cleansing was never official policy, at least announced as such, but the idea was recurrent and insistent and goes back well even before the fall of the Ottoman empire in Zionist circles and continues through the so-called heroic first generation of Israelis. That’s findings of Israeli historians. So, yes, hate is despicable, but it was the Palestinians who were first wronged. They are the ones whose society has been destroyed. They are the ones who have living as second-class citizens in Israel, and in the most horrendous long-term (50 years!) refugee situations the world knows. Like America, Israel was founded by a persecuted religious group, who passed on the persecution as if they had learned only a survival lesson, and nothing moral whatsoever. Like incest in families, one abused child grows up and abuses the next generation. Who has the courage to stop it?

[lvx23]

So what's the root cause of racial hatred? Is it fear of the Other? Is it hominid competition and genetic pretectionism? Egotism wed with psychosis? Is it an epiphenomenon of religious dogma? From a cursory glance at history it seems that, whatever the cause, there's a current of such atrocities continuously winding its way through human culture. Why?

Imagine if you will the energy that is released by such genocidal acts. The tangible hatred and fury of the murderer and the sacrificial release of fear and life from the victim. Multiply that to the scale of warfare and factor it over 4 or 5 thousand years. This is a huge outpouring of willed death and destruction of humans upon humans. This is the fodder for the black archons of the Gnostics. These forces continue to flow through the machine of global corporate warfare and profiteering. If you think they have any allegiance to Jews or Muslims or Christians, you're wrong. Religion itself is yet another factor often manipulated to create division. Indeed, it would seem that hatred is a useful tool wielded by the true power brokers walking this planet. Hatred is encouraged in subtle and not so subtle ways.

So is it just part of life, an ultraviolent game played by alpha males killing off the competition? Or is it an evolutionary appendix destined to be shed along the path towards the godhead? To put it another way, is there any evolutionary advantage to hatred? Does it protect adaptive traits of the species? Or does evolution itself falter against the vast depths and complexities of the human condition?

To my mind, hatred keeps us in fear, keeps us fighting each other, and keeps us enslaved to the wills of the overlords (i.e. the Big Players in the international arena and whatever dark forces they've allied themselves with). What's the biggest divisive issue for the Left? Israel vs. Palestine.

Encourage hatred and fear and you create division. Cultivate compassion and integrity and division naturally disappears.

[Woodpecker]

I've got a nice glow from reading this last bunch of posts.

[Halfglass]

Ivx23: You have a gift for getting to the core of the matter. I think whats happened is the ape (in this case, here on earth--mind you all those undoubtedly populated planets out there), has reached The Barrier: This Barrier might be one of two things.

Science rises up through the idea of an Overbeing.

At some point this will happen to one of the self-aware animals with the luck, and worthwile manipulating "tools" attached to the water bag-bodys that are the organism (humans--what-have-you) i.e. things that claw their way up from the mud (in this case) four fingers and a thumb.

Humans now having established purpose for being, exising with the tidy package of religion, where one's desteny is made clear and safe--for eternity...are stuck with what this groping self-aware universe has push itself into. (A blind god reaching up the dna strands to feel it's created self in the Here.)

We're fucking stuck at a point where some see the end, (it's coming, we will run out of things eventually), and want to look to their (conditioned into them) God for the answer.

Others have decided that we must look with new eyes at what we are and how right thinking/action might save us.

Mostly we have the hunter-gather mind still and we will fuck it up in the end I'm afraid.

The It that pushes up from the Cambrian explosion on, is us. Look!

We made it!

Now what? Greed and fear of hellfire will destroy the path forward.

(The other thing was an idea I'm working on where if you were born on a planet nearer to the galactic core of a spiral galaxy, you'd be nearer to other planets and self-ware dynamics are playing out between speicies from different planets--including telepathy. There may very well be more "important" things happening down there, and our story is an isolated one...too far out on the spiral arm to be worth paying any attention to...like lost sperm on a big scale.

The Barrier is religion. Its got to go or we don't make it.)

[ December 15, 2004, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[lvx23]

OK, but why do people feel that they need religion? Obviously we can't just take it away. Common people turn to religion for many diverse reasons and many of them find solace there. For a long time I wanted to get rid of religion (I mean, I still do in an ideal world). But for now I think progress will only happen by including religion and re-engineering the many flavors of Christianity and Islam and Judaism to focus on their mutual strengths as transcendent, compassionate faiths. The prevailing currents of fear and hatred and apocalyptica in the Big 3 desperately need to be purged but it's too early, I feel, to get rid of religion completely.

And really the problem is deeper than religion. It's dogmatism and the logical constraints inherited from dualism and materialism. The average human mind computes the world in binary terms - on/off, yes/no, black/white, love/hate - and is incapable of grasping that two very different views could both be equally valid.

Much of western human thought is still stuck in a Newtonian world. For now we may just have to sit it out and wait for the implications of modern physics to further seep into the noosphere and rewire our logic structures. Relativism, interconnectedness, holism, emergence, complexity, nonlinearity, order and chaos - all of these are even now modifying the way humans perceive the world.

Change logic and everything else will change.

[Halfglass]

Yes that sums it up.

The only way out for us now--let's face it religion isn't going anywhere--is a virus that takes out 2/3 of the populace or some evolutional step that was supposed to happen.

But as I said in my theory of the dispertion of matter (planets/solar systems) where creatures could signal each other (between planets, and so know of the existance of other equal beings) earlier on in their evolution (like if there had been martians), then worlds would come together as one. This is how it was supposed to go down maybe; if you're lucky enough to live in these areas of the galaxy. If not, like here on earth, you get the shithole we find ourselves in.

See, we have this knowledge of sort of "where" we are now (on a ball of rock floating in a huge univervse), but nobody wants to include this knowledge in their view of things. It's like we still think the earth is flat. Nothing has changed in peoples minds since before Columbus.

The self-aware universe cannot help in some magical way. The path to self-awarness is what it is.--full of collateral damage. It's dog-eat-dog until something makes that planet come together--evolution, even some telepathy santori on a huge scale seems like a dream.

We may be just a cosmic jit-stain out here. So buckle down and get your kicks and don't do stupid shit like sky- diving, drinking and driving or joining the army and you'll be ok.... Peace brother. Dan C.

[ December 15, 2004, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Lowlight]

egret - of course there was always the 2000 year exile of the Jews which is probably the longest we know of, but i know what you mean in terms of modern day exile. Now Arafat is gone i think there could be a possible peace, but it rest on whether or not Abbas (a man i have a lot of respect for) can get the ground support he needs in terms of compromise from the people and the miliant groups.

Religion - hmmmmm, i always have trouble discussing the use of this as i have a different idea as of what Religion is. To me it is belief itself. Science, Communism, Atheism, shamanism, all these constitiute religion as well as traditional 'religion', to me anyway. so its not religion that is really the problem, rather when belief becomes entrenched and unable to grow and accomodate new experience is where the problem lies.

Hatred - i think this has its role to play as well in that it can motivate the self to change and destroy what needs to be destroyed. the problem may lie in what hatred is applied to. For instance i dont think it bad to hate what our cultue i the West has become, nor what humanity has become in its incarnation as 'Man'.

[lvx23]

Well if you cultivate compassion (and I'm no master) enough to see why the culture has become this way, to be able to see the chain of causality that has molded every single person into what they are, good or bad, then hatred starts to fade. Have you ever been in a long term relationship that just couldn't work? It's painful and frustrating but ultimately you understand exactly why the other person is behaving the way they are. You've gotten to know them so well you can see all the underlying reasons for their problems - bad parenting, traumas, shortcomings, etc... This is what the Dalai Lama's on about. Many of our afflictions can really be traced back to people simply not having enough love in their lives.

[Halfglass]

Yeeeah well. You're not looking at my theory at all, let alone what science has shown us in the fossil records. (If it weren't for ONE tiny backboned animal (discovered mostly alongside the vastly larger populations of exoskeletons of arachnids (Bugs!) at Burgess shale in Canada) and agreed upon by all paleontologists as the sole "lucky" surviver of the whole vertabrate Phyla (every animal with a backbone), this place would have never seen dinosaurs and been a place of crablike creatures of every dimension--that would know nothing of love, sorry to say.

Love is part of the conditioned being in the ultimate veiw of things.

The "IT": nature, whatever you call it, that Lonely Thing in the Void that shook itself and climbed up from the Cambrian mud--that has come to self-awareness, is US, too--the It/Us (as for religion, the Hindus seemed to have gotten that part straight).

(It took a comet too to clear the way for mammals don't forget.)

If we're not looking with the new knoledge that has been handed us, its all a waste.

Love, hate...these things have not been around very long. Yeah they are worth fighting for now, but that dosen't help explain the picture of things as I see it. (Or more impotantly, as science has revealed!)

If one wants truth these days, one must include science. There is no way around it. And arguments that don't include it are pointless in the end.

[ December 15, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[nanouk]

"The "IT": nature, whatever you call it, that Lonely Thing in the Void that shook itself and climbed up from the Cambrian mud--that has come to self-awareness, is US, too--the It/Us (as for religion, the Hindus seemed to have gotten that part straight).

(It took a comet too to clear the way for mammals don't forget.)

If we're not looking with the new knoledge that has been handed us, its all a waste."

Love, hate...these things have not been around very long. Yeah they are worth fighting for now, but that dosen't help explain the picture of things as I see it. (Or more impotantly, as science has revealed!)

If one wants truth these days, one must include science. There is no way around it. And arguments that don't include it are pointless in the end."

i agree to some point...but i feel it is a statement of a man, not a woman...

love and hate has been around as long as life, but IRRATIONAL love or hate is a relatively new phenomenon...truth is, like beauty, 'in the eye of the beholder', unless, (you are absolutely right), (if)it is a scientific truth...then the truth is universal...

the duality(masculine and feminine)of things are ever present...

i feel...

[ December 15, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Nanouk ]

[Halfglass]

Ok I can't help myself here. (lol) "Love and hate have been around as long as life...."

That's what I'm talking about. So a crab eating the eggs of the backboned survivor that became us, was full of hate?

Look at the shotgun approach that nature uses to get a grip in the "Here." Whether it's a million baby flamingos dieing in salt flats every year in Africa (by perfectly natural means--not enough rain and they can't make it from their nesting grounds, to the lakes a few miles away...sometimes a whole generation goes down in the mud--saw it on Animal Planet) or all the sperm that goes down the toilet, the struggle to self-awareness:

...IS NOT A TIDY PATH, AND THE PATH WE CAN SEE BACK ACROSS, IS NOT REFLECTIVE IN ANY WAY (in the way of hopes and purpose for existance), WITH WHAT HUMANS WOULD LIKE TO PROJECT ON IT.

[ December 15, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[nanouk]

"So a crab eating the eggs of the backboned survivor that became us, was full of hate?"

no more than the new lion king murdering all the cubs in the pride, to make sure HIS genes are the only one's brought forward in his reign...

i have had this same discussion many times before, and if i may re-phrase myself and call it 'fear' rather than 'hate'?

i do adamantly believe, however, that love is everpresent, and even the less 'rational' creatures show great love for one other...
ants carry the dead and wounded back to the nest(probably to feed them to the queen, but even so)

and one of the most amazing things i saw on a doucumentary about an elephant herd, was that several members carried the bones of the dead Matriarch, for many weeks or months, and they stroked the bones, passed them among themselves, as a ritual of love and remembrance...

love and respect,

[Lowlight]

i used to be very pro-science but over the last 5 years i have grown to see that it really has only limited scope and application. its a tool for looking at what laws may apply and how physical constructions may look at a certain level. beyond this it has little to say (in its current form anyway) about human experience. Also its preoccupation with Darwinian Evolution and materialism cripples its progress and transformation.

this whole question of love/hate depends on the nature of reality itself in terms of consciousness and what we call 'God' in the classical sense. If reality is conscious and not just through us then love and hate and all these emotional states, desires and passions may have always been, we are just in the process of discovering them for ourselves as we as a planet and a human race walk the road to Godhood.

Peace

[Lowlight]

P.S Nanouk

I love that elephant story!

[nanouk]

thanks lowlight...i googled and found this:

"Delilah's part of the original building was larger, better equipped for the two newcomers, so we moved her to a smaller older wing that had not been used at all since her arrival. She was reluctant to make the move and had to be led by hand into her new quarters, moving very slowly, step by step, hanging back as long as she could. The place had been springcleaned, scrubbed and furnished with fresh hay and water, but it was clear that she didn't like it. I stayed with her all the way, making encouraging noises, but that didn't help much. In the end, however, she settled down a little and we left her to it as I watched from behind the scenes. She started sniffing first at the food and bedding, and then moved across to the other side of the indoor area, the tip of her trunk opening and closing, testing smells left and right, reaching out to its full extent as she got closer to the wall. Then the pattern changed: she began to concentrate on one spot in the corner, pausing, turning, hesitating, finally giving all her attention to that small area. She became very quiet, even tense, and stood right over the spot, giving it her undivided attention, so absorbed that even her trunk stopped moving. And she stayed that way, entranced, for minutes on end. Everything about her demeanour reminded me of a young bull elephant I had seen in South Africa's Addo Elephant National Park investigating another elephant's skull. Eventually, Delilah shook herself out of the meditation and seemed to come to a decision. She went over to the hay pile, picked up a large sheaf with her trunk and carried it across to the offending area. She kept on transporting hay until the entire corner was completely concealed. Then she relaxed and seemed quite at home. I called the keeper and showed him what she had done. It didn't make any sense to him, either, until I asked how long it was since the wing had been used. 'Almost 20 years.' he said. 'This is where we kept the last
African elephant. The one we had before Delilah arrived…' I asked what had happened to it.
'She became very sick and difficult and had to be kept shackled all the time. Until eventually the visiting vet said she would have to be put down. We shot her…' He paused and I could see that something had just occurred to him. 'My God,' he said, with his eyes wide. 'That's where it happened, all those years ago. That's where she died. Right in that corner!'"

http://www.theecologist.org/article.html?article=477

[Halfglass]

(This is a great thread now!) Ok. You are right about those elephants, surely they are showing love and empathy and sadness and loss. Even our dogs and cats, it shouldn't be said that they don't show obvious love for us.
Yes I love my mom dearly, my girl etc. As I said love has become NOW (as Whitewave makes metion)something to point to as perhaps the purpose of existance (for brevity here let's go with that).

But look back over my idea of solar systems with inhabited planets with two or three suns in the sky and a few moons, all with self-aware life on them. The populace of those worlds would soon shake off their Jesus figures from their past, and pull together as one in fear of the inhabitans of those other nearby worlds (after they'd discovered metal and then down the line one of 'em made a telescope).

(Stay with me here, I agreed about love I'm just going back to my theory (LOL).)

So then you get a world where all the money is put into science (the arms race would be between planets, even if there were no immediate threat, both worlds would have the other looming as a potential conquerer).
So unlike here, where we (amazingly!) put people on the moon with '60s technology, it'd be a much bigger enterprise, the whole planet based on discovery/get-better-spacecraft-sooner economies.
Down near the galactic core of spiral galaxies is where all the action is.

And down there are green worlds with plenty of resourses, where science has taken them far; where there has been life forms with grasping hands and technology and the compassion to look first with inquisitive eyes at the new planets they desend upon.
That kind of set-up is what a planet would need to have the inhabitants as one mind, religion would have a back seat at best.

("Out here on the perimeter there are no stars...out here we are stoned immaculate!)

[ December 16, 2004, 04:03 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[nanouk]

The populace of those worlds would soon shake off their Jesus figures from their past, and pull together as one

i believe that was one of the messages in daniel's transmission, the quetzacoatl is just that, a message of 'one-ness'...

the q'uero elders of peru finally descended from the clouds after 500 years, to give us the message of pachacuti coming, 'the shining one', who, like quetzacoatl, pacal, and viracocha, was a man, but became a god...but now the q'uero shamans tell us, the new pachacuti is a consciusness, and not a messiah, or christ.

the day enough people resonate together, will be impossible to forget...it may take another eight years or so, but i have felt the pachacuti growing within, without knowing what it was for 5 or so years already, and lowlight and many other's here have too (:

[lvx23]

HalfG, it sounds like if the Earth had a common enemy/fear, then we'd be united...?

OTOH, I suspect that the transformation/apocalypticisation of our culture might very well be attended by the discovery of alien life. Surely finding proof of life beyond earth would induce a massive existential crisis capable of bootstrapping humanity up to a higher level. Instead of nation states trying to fight for themselves, the planet might become unified in it's identity (this is probaly more in line with what you're suggesting).

[nanouk]

i don't even wanna know what bush would get up to if he had reason to fear extra terrestrial 'enemies'

[lvx23]

Well, extra-terrestrial life likley means extra-terrestrial oil.

[nanouk]

exactemento

[Isaiah Mpski]

Old pond,new frog.Old frog,new pond.SPLASH

[daniel]

lvx23,

i suspect that the leaders of our government believe they do know about extraterrestrial life, and there is some shadowy truth behind all of the Roswell / Area 51 etc rumors... they consider that the "greys" are real enough and still seek technology transfer from them etc. However all of this takes place in a shadowy or in-between realm of consciousness (which Gebser called the "magic" structure, which for us is a severe regression), and is not subjected to light-of-day scrutiny. The "secret government" is not subtly minded enough to understand the "real nature" of these entities.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Area 51 is simply the place where in 1968-9 the fake trip to the moon was filmed.All for propaganda and to buy time for the neo-capitalist system to really catch on.
I doubt there is any truth to the Roswell incidence-just a rumor that got blown out of proportion by the media.
The government has no doubts about the probability of other more advanced-less advanced beings in our cosmos.Wouldn't it be amazing when we pierce the cloud covered planet of Saturn to see a civilization there,more worried about their survival than worrying about us.We've only scratched the truth about our own galaxy,much less about other worlds.

[ January 08, 2005, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Isaiah Mpski ]

[silentwolf]

There's tales told by HAM radio operators back in the day that when Neil and Buzz hopped out, several very, very large ships greeted them and told them to go home and not come back. I for one can't personally verify it or that we actually landed on the moon, but I have a feeling that both are the truth...especially since there are accounts of the physicists having to figure in a 20 hour pause of the earth's rotation to actually make it to the moon right.

Within, or without? There can be only one.