rape and indigenous cultures

[semilinceata]

I was discussing rape with a friend the other day and we were talking about whether rape arose from societel concepts and constraints (i.e a woman may have thought that she was just being taken by the strongest man). Does anyone have any light to shed on this.

Oh and I am in no way belittling rape I am curious as to whether it is a recent thing or if our perceptions of rape have changed

[craazyman]

There is a rather interesting historical myth on the topic that suggests a perspective on the issue and a psychological framework for analyzing the interpenetration (no pun intended) of free choice and evolutionary biological drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women

[drew hempel]

Yes I was just reading Gurdjieff in "In Search of the Miraculous" on the misuse of sex energy which he says is very common. He says that normally sex energy is either a pleasant or neutral sensation, along with the HIGHER thinking and HIGHER emotional states while all the other energy centers (normal thinking, normal emotions, moving and instinct) have pleasant and UNPLEASANT sensations). So he says usually sex energy is misused as normal thinking energy -- imagination -- without accessing the higher emotional or higher thinking center. He says that sex energy is the most powerful energy center and if used correctly can then tune into the higher energies. He says the means to do this is by creating a permanent center of gravity in the higher thinking center -- becoming magnetized in the third eye. The means to do this takes strong will-power and in that sense shows the connection between strength and love.

[Isaiah Mpski]

What you're talking about,among us psychiatrists is called, the Libido.:D

[suebee]

it has seemed to me for awhile that castaneda must have read all of the 'esoteric' disciplines and coalesced them into the entertaining [to me] pulp fiction of his books, unless of course the stuff of his books is actual.

[willoweyes]

Suebee, the subject of don Juan and Carlos Castenada is endlessly fascinating, but I was hoping someone besides the sour old witch (me) would castrate the guys for making tittilating noises (whooops i meant CASTIGATE) about such a serious and for this woman at least, painful subject--rape.

don Juan made three, for me, unforgettable observations:

do not stare too long into water;

do not carry anything in your hands while walkabout; and

life is a race between wisdom and exhaustion.

signed: Juan Hoo Shudno

[Isaiah Mpski]

...al of it greased by money Willow.
So simple to solve,if Juan can find a couple of hardworking,honest attorneys.

[suebee]

yes willow i was completely off topic! i tried for awhile to use my superior analytical skills to think back to cave men and sex and on to see where rape could have begun to at least be voiced. but i couldnt get to anything beyond this comment: testosterone coupled with strength is obviously the root and it is a given females suffered before it could be named. it seems a superfluous question.

i am going to read all the castaneda books again. i just reread the active side of infinity. even if it is science fiction, he was a master storyteller. have you read the 'witches' books about their time with him?

[Isaiah Mpski]

..I don't think it is all that simple SB for as soon as woman kind learned to betray and manipulate man kind with her part of dicotomy then things began to get perverted and deadly.

[willoweyes]

Isaih, what you tsalking at, mon?

Suebee, i love pintos too.

I only read His first four books, ending i guess with tales of power. I tried to get into the fifth, something turgid with a bold eagle up front, maybe the eagle's gift? on DANIEL'S recommendation--but found it wonky and unreadable.

Lsdlaughable.

But there was something there, in Journey to Ixtalan and others, that was a double-double--there was a serious on top of the con, underneath the self-parody. call it truth.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Well obviously woman ate first and therefore she has enjoyed"consciousness" longer than man.

Willow I know that in the old American Indian society,the older women pretty ruled the commune unless it was wartime.
Probably the same thing everywhere else.

I was inspired by Castenada to be found by a Navaho Medicine Man on the San Juan Reservation in northern New Mexico.I spent a year there with him near Espanola(Alcalde).
Reality depends alot on comfort and safety levels.

[Doolally]

Doesn't man on woman rape have more to do with aggression towards the feminine than sex? Foreplay may have evolved over the eons to the point that we can conjecture that Caveman sex looked like rape to us, but rape is assault, just like beating someone up or killing someone. Rape is a destructive crime that must come out of a damaged or sociopathic and cruel psyche.
Sorry, as a newbe, to get heavy here, but I couldn't let this go without making a comment.

[craazyman]

What you say is true doolally, but it is ultimately a definition and tautology, not an analysis. Your observation is undeniable from the standpoint of anyone with a hint of a conscience.

The more troublesome and analytically difficult question is when does the borderline of consent become crossed, and the sex act become rape. And what sort of underlying psychological/psychoanalytical states empower the former and the latter. The former is one of the world's great mysteries. Aggression and violence certainly empower the latter, but with some added complexity relative to brutal assault and battery, although equally as odius.

The problem of consent is a question that has vexed courts and juries for a long, long time. The tawdry melodrama of the William Kennedy Smith trial from the 1990s is but one example. Anyone who has been through the collegiate ritual of heavy drinking and socializing may be personally familiar with the complexities of the issue.

[Isaiah Mpski]

...reality depends upon comfort and safety levels...

mpski-2006

[suebee]

perfect foray into something that has become glaringly apparent to me -misogyny is twice the problem racisim is in this country. even among women. :cry:

well i dont know what drove men in cave times to rape, but i bet it was mostly the sex drive, which doesnt fit the usual profile we hear about today. anytime a woman doesnt want sex, its rape, no? which may mean that rape happens way more often than it is reported. the college/teenage drunken consent thing is something any woman can get a handle on after the first time it happens to her. at least i did after i luckily got away from the guy. it didnt happen again no matter how looped i was. maybe some women cant learn? and then is it rape or stupidity? i sound misogynistic now, but if you dont take into account how testosterone obliterates young men's minds....well....im not trying to stick up for the miserable fact of the sluthood of men, (generalizations aside), but it does seem to be hormone driven and if women dont learn this, they pay dearly. brothels should be legal and healthy, and empowering. oh lord im ranting again.

[craazyman]

Yes Isaiah, just picked up today a used 6 cm x 6 cm medium format SLR camera for landscape and still life photo experimentation and learning.

I saw the Lee Friedlander show at the Metropolitan Museum yesterday--mostly his landscapes of Olmstead designed parks, including shots of Central Park. The Met has a growing photography collection that includes works from throughout the 20th century, all on permanent exhibit (I believe).

I am of a few minds about photography. I really don't think it's an "art" although it certainly is a craft, and a nicely done photo can look great framed and on a wall. But the range of expressive tools is relatively narrow compared to drawing or painting, and the medium is fairly restricted and the learning curve is, I think, considerably more compressed. There's just a lot less to it.

I even include Ansel Adam's work in this analysis (well, he may be one of the exalted few artists in the field, including Steiglitz and a dozen or so others) as beautiful as his photos are. My views would not be popular in a photography club, as much as I admire good photography and as much as I am enjoying my own activities with it.

In the long run I may change my mind, but given what it takes to draw a good human figure with charcoal it's a tough comparison.

[willoweyes]

"Brothels should be legal and healthy" you go girl!

Our situation is so absurd and twisted, it is hard to tease out the strand of sanity. Ideally, woman is strong and sex is aok w/o the old sin taint. And as Chris Rock says, (re bill clinton) some men just need their medicine.

I saw "The New World" last night, a psychedelic water-park ride of sight, sound and sensation. A remarkable movie, considering the subject matter was John Smith and Phocohantes. Not like the Disney cartoon. check it for a different view of the female spirit.

As I was trying to look up the word "psychedelic" in the dictionary, so that people here wouldn't gawk at my spelling, I came upon the word, "pudendum", from the Latin, "that of which one ought to be ashamed." and fr. "pudere"; "to be ashamed."

That's what we call the female "organs of generation."

Well, with that initial uckfay-up to deal with, it's no wonder we as a culture have problems with the subject. And are trying to cast the hot potato, constantly, into the hands of the opposite sex.

[Isaiah Mpski]

You know,CM,alot of those people including Steiglitz,and his girlfriend-you know the one that painted flowers and longhorn skulls-got together as a group and headed for the clear air of New Mexico.Artists,writer,musicians,banded together and built themselves a commune around some hot springs south of Taos.
The natural springs along the Rio Grande gorge,north of Taos-the John Donne Bridge and the Stagecoach Springs Crossing are at their best right now because the snow hasn't melted and flooded them out.
There are those in the Jemez,between Santa Fe and Albuquerque but too many people there at this time of year.
Yes,I think they were a unique group of people,in a unique time.
New Mexico is a neat place to capture the difference in color.

Speaking of rape Willow and SB.
I do understand.My brain was penetrated with electricity 200 times and my spirit murdered by the experience.

[suebee]

i say your spirit is alive and well isaiah. :D

there is a fantastic group of houses "michael someone" architect in taos - eco houses that have no water no elec hookup (solar) completely off grid and they are so so so cool and warm apparently. walls are tires filled with sand stacked like oreos and bottles and cans filling crevices all covered with some earthern mud stucco all soft curves and rounded shapes and windows and v slanted roofs to capture all water. i cant wait to have one! but taos! no rain soon? how do know re precip pattern changes? have to live near ocean for desalinization....like im gonna live forever....

oscars tonite and those fantastic dresses!

[Isaiah Mpski]

Yes SB,I can see the place in my mind's eye.North of Taos a few miles to the turnoff-east to the ski area-and west toward Tres Piedres and the HUGE bridge over the Rio Grande.Just a few miles west of the stop light and you run across the houses you are talking about.Seen em many times.
And yes Taos is terribly dry.Every twenty years or so they have a terrible drought and runs all the people(I'm sure D. Rumsfield and Jane Fonda have deep wells) and the property gets cheap for the next group of New Agers.
One time I was sitting in the warm pool at the springs at StageCoach crossing and about ten girls from ol Albuquerque came down the canyon side,all disrobed and piled into the pool with me.You talk about rape.All they did was to tease and torment me.
So I don't care what it seems like on the outside, in reality,it works both ways.

And yes,I do glow in the dark.::cool:

[drew hempel]

Blogger Great Galactic Ghoul said...

The conscious observer in science is technology since the measurement relies on negative infinity through geometric proof by contradiction as an upper limit, ever since Plato's introduction of zero and geometric incommensurability (see professor H.M. Collin's recent academic article, "Lead to Gold.")

Science relies on the consciousness of matter as mass or amplitude density -- the increase of the time period or height of the energy wave, from increased tension of space as weight -- thereby destroying organic life on earth.

According to the three different consciousness science books by Puharich, Bentov and Fred Alan Wolf, as brain nerve frequency decreases to 7 Hz, the pulse of the ionosphere-earth resonance, then the amplitude energy of the brain, the time period, increases as synchronized light, as per the square of the time period, just like a laser.

The increased amplitude enables consciousness to detach from the body but because of quantum uncertainty, as the time period increases, the space period decreases, so that ultimately only infinite consciousness remains, as taught by Ramana Maharshi.

The decrease in space period is why the projection of mind consciousness, through increase of nerve electron-proton time period, is inversely proportional to the decrease of nerve pulse frequency of the mind-body electrochemical system.

In chapter 16 of "In Search of the Miraculous" Gurdjieff diagrams this inverse relation of mind-body-consciousness through the change of "center of gravity," for the three main energy centers -- the brain, heart and stomach.

So for an astral body to develop the brain must decrease from the thinking nerve pulse frequency (Hydrogen 48) to the moving center frequency (Hydrogen 24 -- an inverse increase in electron light time period or consciousness) while the heart is now the brain frequency as Hydrogen 48). The final stage of this inverse relation between brain and body is when the sex energy (Hydrogen 12) is now in the heart center as love energy (the sublimation and ionization of the lower emotions) while the brain energy is the slower frequency of Hydrogen 6, with in inverse increase in light consciousness time period.

The full-lotus accomplishes this harmonic inverse ratio ionization naturally since the brain frequency is slowed down by the increase in body amplitude energy going up through a harmonic vortex, like a black hole spacetime cone, thereby enabling the time period of the consciousness to expand.

Again the synchronization of the consciousness as light wave amplitude or holographic laser is enabled by the inherent asymmetric or complementary opposite harmonics of pure number based on logical inference beyond time -- not the geometric proof by contradiction of incommensurability used ever since Plato and relied on in Einstein's relativity and Bohr's quantum mechanics.

[pepe3leches]

hey drew, which are the other two book--just readed "beyond thelepathy", and found it a fascinating read. how are your ideas about 2012? BS?

[willoweyes]

as far as the art in photography is concerned--i would say that most art becomes "art' thru the choice of subject. . . . Unlike you and me Craazy, for the clever draftsman, drawing the human figure in charcoal is no more difficult than it is for an idiot savant to find you the square root of infinity. It just happens.

the great photographer has the eye of a hunter, and the taste of an esthete.

[craazyman]

As much as I appreciate your interlocution, willow, I would strenuously disagree.

Most of the great Renaissance figurative artists (and great ones of other eras) studied for years on end in masters' studios in order to do what they could do--a painstaking study of light/shade, form, bones, muscles and the extensions/contractions of the body in different muscular states, and the expressive potential and strategy of use for different media.

I do believe some people have a greater aptitude for this than others, but even for a genius like a DiVinci or Michaelangelo, the learning process was an exhausting painstaking task, as art history documents.

One can no more sit down and draw the figure from inspiration than one could be dropped in the center of Shanghai and burst out in fluent Chinese.

It's the learning of a language of expression, one that is nearly as complex as a spoken language.

[bopes]

Order seems to come from searching for disorder, and awkwardness from searching for harmony or likeness, or the following of a system. The truest order is what you already find there, or that will be given if you don't try for it. When you arrange, you fail. The profoundest order is revealed in what is most casual. (Fairfield Porter)

[craazyman]

willow, upon reflection, I may have misinterpreted your point.

Once the learning has been done, then yes, it can just happen, for sure.

[willoweyes]

Have you seen Amadeus?

The argument re the status of the photographer has been put forth at length by my betters. Art inhabits the object of desire. The means are infinite. There are autistic individuals who can perfectly recall a city with their pencil, years after a visit. Without training. And their facile tracery is closer to art than I, yearning, will ever reach.

[drew hempel]

Pepe3Leches -- it was "Stalking the Wild Pendulum" by Isaac (sp?) Bentov and then "Space-Time and Beyond" by Fred Alan Wolf.

As for 2012 -- I just reread Pinchbeck's book. I respect the guy for his Beat adventure sense but there's just so much growing pain in that book! I read it in 4 hours while sitting in full-lotus in McDonald's having O at a Ds with the females. haha.

Poor Daniel -- had to run from his own website. haha. I emailed his publisher Mitch at Penguin -- since his new book is a tour of U.S. occult I'm hoping he visited http://springforestqigong.com

He said he was going to so we'll see!!

[pepe3leches]

ey thanks drew, but i was referring to 2012 as a *possible* event, not daniel's book--I think "Qetzalcoatl" returned to the mass psyche about 20 years ago, with Dragon Ball cartoons--which have an amazing amount of hidden symbolism.

[drew hempel]

OK well here's Pinchbeck's new column on 2012.

http://commongroundmag.com/2008/03/pinchbeck0803.html

What he's saying is exactly what I was saying several years ago -- but I think there is something more valuable to "asanas" then he realizes.

For example in 2012 -- Daniel's book -- he says he's looking for what Gurdjieff called "the higher octave" but Daniel also calls technology "value neutral." In fact Gurdjieff explicitly states that since the vibrations of alchemy are discontinuous they go against western science (and all its technology).

So Daniel is wrong.

Instead a proper understand of the harmonics behind the asanas is a radical critique of western materialism because the energy imbalances of the mind and body are automatically resonated as consciousness.

For example if I eat normal meat meals, as I often do, but I also sit in full-lotus all day long, as I do, then I'll smell like shit.

Gurdjieff regularly called people his "merde" and idiots, etc. It's true! Civilization is just a big pile of shit. haha.

So that's why yoga is supposed to rely on vegetarianism -- but Minnesota is the Tibet of the U.S. and in Tibet yogins also eat meat -- for the beginning at least.

Anyway that's just one example -- you can burn off the shit but at least I'm not hiding the true effects of a normal civilized life style -- sitting in full-lotus makes the effects immediate.

There's other effects as well -- even though I can cover up the shit smell with anti-septics -- I can also have O at a Ds -- immediately activating and exchanging the lower emotions of others around me, especially female sex energy -- while the females suck up my yang electromagnetic bliss-light.

That's the true subversion of asanas -- free love.