former Canadian Defense Minister comes claim

[daniel]

Former Canadian Minister Of Defence Asks Canadian Parliament To Hold
Hearings On Relations With Alien "ET" Civilizations

Thu Nov 24, 7:00 AM ET

(PRWEB) - OTTAWA, CANADA (PRWEB) November 24, 2005 -- A former
Canadian Minister of Defence and Deputy Prime Minister under Pierre
Trudeau has joined forces with three Non-governmental organizations to
ask the Parliament of Canada to hold public hearings on Exopolitics --
relations with "ETs."

By "ETs," Mr. Hellyer and these organizations mean ethical, advanced
extraterrestrial civilizations that may now be visiting Earth.

On September 25, 2005, in a startling speech at the University of
Toronto that caught the attention of mainstream newspapers and
magazines, Paul Hellyer, Canada's Defence Minister from 1963-67 under
Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Prime Minister Lester Pearson, publicly
stated: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head."

Mr. Hellyer went on to say, "I'm so concerned about what the
consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just
think I had to say something."

Hellyer revealed, "The secrecy involved in all matters pertaining to
the Roswell incident was unparalled. The classification was, from the
outset, above top secret, so the vast majority of U.S. officials and
politicians, let alone a mere allied minister of defence, were never
in-the-loop."

Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons
which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an
intergalactic war without us ever having any warning. He stated, "The
Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a
forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to
keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and
to shoot at them, if they so decide."

Hellyer's speech ended with a standing ovation. He said, "The time has
come to lift the veil of secrecy, and let the truth emerge, so there
can be a real and informed debate, about one of the most important
problems facing our planet today."

Three Non-governmental organizations took Hellyer's words to heart,
and approached Canada's Parliament in Ottawa, Canada's capital, to
hold public hearings on a possible ET presence, and what Canada should
do. The Canadian Senate, which is an appointed body, has held
objective, well-regarded hearings and issued reports on controversial
issues such as same-sex marriage and medical marijuana,

On October 20, 2005, the Institute for Cooperation in Space requested
Canadian Senator Colin Kenny, Senator, Chair of The Senate Standing
Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, "schedule public
hearings on the Canadian Exopolitics Initiative, so that witnesses
such as the Hon. Paul Hellyer, and Canadian-connected high level
military-intelligence, NORAD-connected, scientific, and governmental
witnesses facilitated by the Disclosure Project and by the Toronto
Exopolitics Symposium can present compelling evidence, testimony, and
Public Policy recommendations."

The Non-governmental organizations seeking Parliament hearings include
Canada-based Toronto Exopolitics Symposium, which organized the
University of Toronto Symposium at which Mr. Hellyer spoke.

The Disclosure Project, a U.S.ˆ based organization that has assembled
high level military-intelligence witnesses of a possible ET presence,
is also one of the organizations seeking Canadian Parliament hearings.

Vancouver-based Institute for Cooperation in Space (ICIS), whose
International Director headed a proposed 1977 Extraterrestrial
Communication Study for the White House of former U.S. President Jimmy
Carter, who himself has publicly reported a 1969 Close Encounter of
the First Kind with a UFO, filed the original request for Canadian
Parliament hearings.

The Canadian Exopolitics Initiative, presented by the organizations to
a Senate Committee panel hearing in Winnipeg, Canada, on March 10,
2005, proposes that the Government of Canada undertake a Decade of
Contact.

The proposed Decade of Contact is "a 10-year process of formal, funded
public education, scientific research, educational curricula
development and implementation, strategic planning, community
activity, and public outreach concerning our terrestrial society's
full cultural, political, social, legal, and governmental
communication and public interest diplomacy with advanced, ethical
Off-Planet cultures now visiting Earth."

Canada has a long history of opposing the basing of weapons in Outer
Space. On September 22, 2004 Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin
declared to the U.N. General Assembly," "Space is our final frontier.
It has always captured our imagination. What a tragedy it would be if
space became one big weapons arsenal and the scene of a new arms race.

Martin stated, "In 1967, the United Nations agreed that weapons of
mass destruction must not be based in space. The time has come to
extend this ban to all weapons..."

In May, 2003, speaking before the Canadian House of Commons Standing
Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, former Minister of
Foreign Affairs of Canada Lloyd Axworthy, stated "Washington's offer
to Canada is not an invitation to join America under a protective
shield, but it presents a global security doctrine that violates
Canadian values on many levels."

Axworthy concluded, "There should be an uncompromising commitment to
preventing the placement of weapons in space."

On February 24, 2005, Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin made
official Canada's decision not to take part in the U.S government's
Ballistic Missile Defence program.

Paul Hellyer, who now seeks Canadian Parliament hearings on relations
with ETs, on May 15, 2003, stated in Toronto's Globe & Mail newspaper,
"Canada should accept the long-standing invitation of U.S. Congressman
Dennis Kucinich of Ohio to launch a conference to seek approval of an
international treaty to ban weapons in space. That would be a positive
Canadian contribution toward a more peaceful world."

In early November 2005, the Canadian Senate wrote ICIS, indicating the
Senate Committee could not hold hearings on ETs in 2005, because of
their already crowded schedule.

"That does not deter us," one spokesperson for the Non-governmental
organizations said, "We are going ahead with our request to Prime
Minister Paul Martin and the official opposition leaders in the House
of Commons now, and we will re-apply with the Senate of Canada in
early 2006.

"Time is on the side of open disclosure that there are ethical
Extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth," The spokesperson
stated. "Our Canadian government needs to openly address these
important issues of the possible deployment of weapons in outer war
plans against ethical ET societies."

news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20...web314382_1

[daniel]

title should've been "... comes clean." My apologies. The story is from Yahoo.

[craazyman]

That story also got picked up by Yahoo! Science News and made it to the headline newslist on my Yahoo home page (that's a lot of editors to climb through). I was wondering if someone would pick it up here.

It's perhaps cliche to say that this is all very strange.

Steven Greer's Disclosure Project has been working for years to get this publicized but with little result, despite several high profile news conferences and sporadic press coverage in mainstream media.

Those of us that really look in to this stuff may wonder how much of this is ET or extra-dimensional or daimonic. I know I do. Reading Patrick Harpur and Jacques Vallee (and John Keel and Daniel Pinchbeck) has evolved me from a "spaceships are here" point of view to something more nuanced. But then, maybe these aren't mutually exclusive.

I suspect the culture will continue to resist this, perhaps indefinitely. The ontological shock is too much. And then what can you do with it. You still have to get up in the morning and go to work and you don't need space men to be a more virtuous and kind human being. They're beside the point.

But if they can somehow help the Washington Redskins hold a lead through the fourth quarter and win some football games, then I'm all for them.

[Dna]

If this is stoopid, tell me why, but no one would doubt the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences if they were, in fact, to turn up at major league baseball/football matches on live national TV.

In my view, ET's are something of a distraction. We should be focusing on practical measures to make this world better. For example, I am working on a small project right now that will raise consumer awarness of companies that exploit foreign workers. This is why I found Dan's last post from the RAN really interesting. It is just a small thing, but if we all did just a little bit, our problems would begin to vanish in extraordinary and suprising ways. The earth can and will be transformed.

[ November 29, 2005, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Dna ]

[Charlie]

This hit me in the face as a high-level event, until I read a bit more about the speaker. “Former Canadian Minister of Defense” sounds pretty damn important, until you learn that he held this office 40 years ago. It would take a lot more than Mr. Hellyer to bring this topic to a head in the major media. So it's essentially just one more ingredient to be thrown in the UFO stewpot and stirred.

"The Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and to shoot at them, if they so decide."

"Gee Dick, I sure don't like the looks of that one... Shoot it !!!

[demon_cleaner]

if the USA is in fact putting weapons on the moon to shoot incoming UFOs (and i'm not sure i believe that) do they really think their weapons can match up to weapons from alien technologies that have mastered interstellar travel? it makes me think of the movie Independence Day when they "nuke the bastards!" and end up just destroying their own cities even more. Only Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum can save us now

[Lowlight]

This is kinda relevant. Ive known of this guy for a few years and still am unsure of what to make of the whole disclosure project. Some of what he says rings very true to my mind but there seems something a bit dodgy i cant quite put my finger on...

http://phenomena.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Area+51&action=page&obj_id=4362&type_id=3&cat_id=132&sub_id=0

"In 2004, Richard Dolan interviewed Dr. Steven Greer for Phenomena Four. Greer is the founder of the Center for Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI), which claims to have initiated communication and contact with extraterrestrials on Earth. In addition, Greer has founded the Disclosure Project, dedicated to ending official secrecy regarding UFOs. Dolan’s questions are in bold; Greer’s replies are in plain text.

Few people in the recent history of UFO research have had as high a profile – and controversial career – as Dr. Steven Greer. In 1990, Greer formed CSETI, an organization focused on initiating contact with extraterrestrial intelligences. The group maintains that guided meditation and concentration can enable participants to establish direct contact with nonhuman intelligences. While skeptics are not lacking, CSETI has many claims of success at its website, http://www.cseti.org.

Greer is also known for his efforts to obtain "disclosure" of the UFO phenomenon by government and other inside sources. Throughout the 1990s, he worked with Laurence Rockefeller, as well as many prominent Clinton administration officials. This included a private briefing with then-CIA director James Woolsey, as well as meetings with several senior military officials. The culmination of Greer's efforts in this regard was the May 9, 2001 press conference at the National Press Club in Washington, DC. This was a major event in the history of UFO politics. Several seemingly credible witnesses from within the military and intelligence community openly discussed sensitive information pertaining to UFO reality and its concealment by government and military officials. Although the press conference resonated strongly with many UFO researchers, others criticized it for its inclusion of extraneous issues (such as a plea to ban space-based weapons) and Greer's failure to investigate fully the backgrounds and claims of some of his witnesses. In any case, the conference received minimal coverage from the mainstream media and failed to end UFO secrecy, as many had hoped.

Most recently, Dr. Greer has explored and promoted what he believes to be advanced study of "free energy." He argues that the secret study of alien technology has revealed secrets that can fully replace fossil fuels. Although he has claimed that some of his sources have succeeded in creating excess energy, there has as yet been no hard evidence offered for outside testing.

By all accounts, Steven Greer has a strong, even domineering, personality. This is one reason a number of UFO researchers have expressed caution about him, and in many cases an active dislike. In addition, Greer’s statements about the nature of the aliens, the existence of a coverup, and of humanity’s future in the "cosmic brotherhood" are anathema to more cautious researchers. On the other hand, many continue to support him. Whether his motives are self-serving, as some maintain, or altruistic and for the benefit of mankind, as he himself claims, there is little question that he has made a definite impact on the field.

In 1990, you formed the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI), and within three years you’re getting an invitation to meet with Laurence Rockefeller. How did that happen so quickly?

To be honest with you, I think it was the force of the message. Not only had we put together an enormous amount of documentation about the phenomenon, but we had also formulated teams that were going all over the world, and had reproducible results with hundreds of witnesses – who had been able to signal to these objects. We had different teams in England, or Belgium, or Mexico, or places in the United States. From a number of them we got videotapes, photographs, or other witnesses who saw the event happening.

Some of the stories are extraordinary.

Yes, and they’re all absolutely true. In fact they’re way understated. This is what caught the attention of people like Laurence Rockefeller, Mrs. Butros Ghali [wife of the former UN General Secretary], former head of Army Intelligence General Stubblebine, and eventually friends of the President [Clinton]. Some very good friends of the President became cognizant of what we were doing and urgently wanted us to get information to the President, to his science advisor, as well as to some of the senior military intelligence people in his administration after he got elected in 1993.

So we put together briefing materials and had meetings. The main thing is that this is an inside game. I hate to use that term, but this has mainly been a process of educating two classes of people who are “insiders.”

One are the people who are on the inside, who should know but don’t: such as Presidents, CIA directors, and so on. The other part of it is educating, from a new paradigm, the national and international security control group – which some call MJ-12 – that deals with these issues. That is a committee of about two or three hundred people, and I know a number of them.

The issue here is to educate them to the need for disclosure, for safe applications of technologies, and for this matter to be handled wisely. We feel that it has been handled promiscuously and dangerously. If you look at some of the things that have happened over the last fifty years, aside from it eroding the rule of law and democracy, the actual handling of the subject itself has been dangerous.

It’s a very dangerous thing for example, for the Commander in Chief of Atlantic Command, Admiral Harry Trane, not to have had adequate information on the subject and to scramble jets up and down the eastern seaboard trying to force down one of these objects. [This refers to an alleged military-UFO encounter from May 1981– RD]. This kind of behavior, which has mainly taken place in a vacuum of secrecy, is a danger to the national security.

You have people who have a need to know who can’t find out anything. And then you have other people who do know and are controlling it, but they’re in a cult of secrecy that becomes hermetically sealed.

You briefed CIA director Woolsey, and there’s talk that you briefed some other very high-level Clinton officials. I’m wondering who these were. For example, the name Al Gore has come up. Did you in fact brief Al Gore on UFOs?

Well, there are a number of people in public life that I don’t want to comment on, who we are currently meeting with. They are an extensive group of people. They include people who are currently friends with every living president. There’s not a living president who doesn’t have a close associate on our advisory team. So from that, you can extrapolate.

Can you give a sense of when these briefings were happening, the kinds of things that were said? What do you think of Bill Clinton himself, and his sense of all this?

First of all, the most part, very few people in most administrations knew anything about the subject. They knew what they saw on a badly-done documentary on the Discovery Channel. It’s a sad statement, but that is really true.

This is not just the executive branch. I met with a member of the intelligence community back in the 1990s. That was Senator Richard Bryan, and it was traumatic. I use that word because there’s this sense that [these officials] know this is the truth. But the problem is that if you make the case this is real, and you’re talking to someone who is the head of the CIA, or is a high official in the intelligence community, you find they have been denied access. They’ve made an inquiry through channels and have been told no such project exists.

This is frightening. Not in the sense that the phenomenon is so frightening, but that people could be at those high levels of responsibility and operational divisions where they really do have a need to know, and where they are completely left in the dark. I would say that none of the reactions have been, “oh this is silly, it’s nonsense.” This is important to hear: I haven’t had a single meeting with a high official, either scientific, political, or military, who has had that reaction. Not in the least.

What were some of the other types of reactions?

Dismay, deep concern, and great interest.

Would you say they generally believe there’s some kind of cover up going on?

Oh yeah. I had with a member of congress who is on the House National Security Committee who said to me, bluntly:“We of course are window dressing.”

I’ll never forget the poignant moment when we were finishing the nearly three-hour meeting with CIA Director [James] Woolsey and his wife, Dr. Sue Woolsey (who at the time was Chief Operating Officer at the National Academy of Sciences). He was getting ready to leave, Secret Service were out front, and I gave him a summary packet with a set of recommendations for the Clinton Administration. This was in the December of 1993. He looked at me and he said, “Dr. Greer, how can we disclose what we are being denied access to? What would that say to the world?”

It’s a very sobering thought, because part of the illusion here is that people we elect are actually in control. They’re not. This is something that most people don’t discuss. These [government officials] are not stupid or naive. Clinton was a very bright man. Cohen was a very brilliant man. Woolsey was a very smart man. They know there’s something going on.

When we did our first briefing for members of Congress in 1997, we gathered about a dozen military witnesses of UFO events. Following that, I had a meeting over at the Pentagon with a senior official, an admiral at the Joint Chiefs of Staff level. My military advisor, a man with great access to the senior flag officers, was a friend of this gentleman. We went over there with a couple of these witnesses.

Prior to the meeting, I had given him some documents, code names, and numbers. These were current code names and code numbers. He took them and made inquiries at the Pentagon into those projects, and he hit pay dirt. He actually located those projects. When he made an inquiry, wanting to know what those projects were doing, he was flat out told, “Sir, you don’t have a need to know.” This is an admiral with the Intelligence Director. They told him he didn’t have a need to know. He was furious.

These are the code words for UFO related programs?

Yes. They’re actually ETV, extraterrestrial vehicle, related. No one uses the word UFO, by the way. UFO was coined after they knew they weren’t unidentified and they knew they didn’t fly. (Laughs).

By the end of this briefing, this admiral said to me, ‘if this is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, you’re dealing with some of the most powerful technologies. These are things that could do circles around my B-2 stealth bombers.” He also said, “Unless the civilian authorities authorize me to push further, there’s not much I can do.” I then told him what we were planning to do with the Disclosure Project. To the extent that we could get people and documents and other things, we were going to put them out there. He looked at me and said, “if you can do it, do it.”

I was in Britain meeting with the Ministry of Defence, and also the former head of the Ministry of Defence, Lord Hill Norton. He’s a Sea Lord, a Five Star Admiral. At one point he asked,“why the hell wasn’t I told about this when I was head of the Ministry of Defence?”

I said “sir, what would you have done while you were head of the MoD, and you found out that there was a clandestine group that was transnational – e.g. transcended national borders – that had this information. That had lied to Presidents, Prime Ministers, and high officials. That had used hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to work on these projects, and had sequestered them inside private corporate structures. And had also, literally, engaged in elimination – murder – in order to keep it secret?”

He looked at me and said, “I wouldn’t have stood for it for one bloody minute!”

I said, “that’s why they weren’t going to tell you, and that’s why they will never tell you.”

You see, the first thing these folks do is a soul biopsy. By that I mean they’re going to take a reading of you as a person. Your whole person. If they don’t think you’ll go along with the game, they’re not going to tell you. Or they’ll tell you disinformation, or set you on the wrong track.

Whether or not you know has nothing to do with your position. This is the big mistake that the UFO research community has made. Assumptions have been made, [like] “oh, you’re the head of the National Security Agency, you know.” Some NSA chiefs have known, some haven’t. [Former NSA Director] Bobby Ray Inman knew. Others haven’t. Some CIA directors had knowledge, others didn’t. Bill Colby knew a great deal.

Is that why Bill Colby died?

Yeah, basically, I mean that’s an untouched story.

He died in 1996, in what was described as an ‘unfortunate boating accident.’

[long pause] Well, I have never said this publicly, but I’ll say it now because this is now many years gone. The week that he died, he was scheduled to meet with a member of our board, to transfer an enormous sum of money and actual hard material. Proof of this whole matter. Because he was sick of the secrecy, he was old, and he wanted it to come out. He very much supported what we wanted to do. One of his best friends, who was an old colonel, was our go-between. And it was under very suspicious circumstances, that’s as far as I’ll go.

I will say that this colonel, who was good friends with Bill Colby, came to the wake of a good friend of mine who died – there were three of us who got metastatic cancer the same month, and I’m the only one left living, all under rather strange conditions, that’s all I’ll say about that. He said to me, “you know, we can’t look back. We’ve got to go forward.” These are tragic losses that both of us have had. It’s very emotional. I can’t talk about this and not get choked up. Some of the things that have happened to keep this secret are really unconscionable.

I’ve been suspicious of Colby’s death for a long time. I think a lot of people are.

We know exactly what happened. I know when it happened, how it happened, who ... but the whole point is that I’m not one of these take a pound of flesh, revenge kind of guys. I’m more like, “let’s keep our eye on the ball.” The ball is the future of civilization we have here on this planet. We’re running out of time to do some of the right things that should have happened in the 1950s.

What about your efforts regarding Zero Point Energy?

From the Disclosure Project and the CSETI work we met a number of scientists from places like Murray Hill, Lockheed, and Northrop. They worked on some of these exotic propulsion and energy systems, and had not already been gobbled up by the military-industrial-intelligence complex. We concluded that there was actually enough science and invention to form an effort to bring it out.

So a spinoff of the Disclosure Project became Space Energy Access Systems, Inc. It’s not so much that we’re trying to bring out antigravity, electogravitic, or magnetogravitic technologies to the public at the first blow. But revealing the science and physics behind energy generation capabilities that would explain the behavior of UFOs.

We’ve developed a collection of some two dozen or maybe three dozen inventions and inventors. Some are bench-type prototypes. Some are a little more developed, dealing with energy and propulsion systems that merit further research and development. My opinion is that it will take ten or twenty million dollars to take most of those things into anything of commercial value. By that, I mean something you could put in your house, start operating off the grid, extracting energy from the quantum vacuum space, the so-called zero-point energy field.

We can now state with some confidence that we have observed and tested systems out there that are far enough along that they’re not decades away. Maybe 12 to 24 months away from having at least Generation One energy devices that could completely replace oil, gas, coal, and nuclear power.

Of course, we have a basic R&D need that is going to be rather expensive. Large corporations will not fund this, and if they do, they’re going to “black box” it. These technologies have been known since the 1940s and 1950s, and it’s been “black shelf” for that long. But there are some cracks of light coming out. One of them is a powerful member of the Senate that we’re meeting with. He’s showing a tremendous amount of interest in this area – and I think can open some doors for some basic science R&D funding.

Do you have a device, or a blueprint of a device, that actually would produce excess energy?

Well, of course, Tom Beardon and his MEG [Motionless Electromagnetic Generator] is being developed that does this. It’s not ready for commercialization. It needs quite a bit of further R&D. But, yes there are. We visited another gentleman whose got a device, more old-fashioned, kind of a Tesla-type rotary system. But this device was putting out 400-500 watts of usable power at 60 hertz and 110 volts from basically the quantum vacuum field. It was quite remarkable when this person had some threats, he was frightened.

For many of these inventors, unfortunately, the currency of fear goes a long way to keeping them from being too bold. But, yes, we have seen these things, and I’m optimistic that it can be done. My big concern is will it take longer than the earth will allow. There are some serious problems going on right now.

Yes. We’re in the middle a natural gas crisis in North America and we’re maybe a decade away from hitting the petroleum wall.

Correct. and the people I work with at the Department of Energy have pointed out maybe less than a decade from now, particularly if there’s any economic development at all in Russia, China, and India.

Plus, there’s evidence OPEC’s cooked their books, so there’s really no telling how much is left.

Yes, and also what the refining and shipping capabilities are. This is a very complex, centralized, energy supply line trying to feed six billion people. One of the problems with the whole fossil fuel game is that it’s very zero sum. Meaning that there’s only so much of it to go around. It almost requires that about 80 percent of the world’s population be impoverished, while maybe twenty percent, if we’re lucky, can live something of a civilized lifestyle. When, locked away in these black boxes of covert industry and military intelligence, are the solutions for this.

Unfortunately it does not look as though we are even close to moving in that direction.

Well, I wouldn’t be so sure. There’s the outside game and the inside game. The inside game that I see going on is encouraging. I would estimate upwards of 40 or 45 percent of the policy group that deals with these issues are in favor of this coming out. I know there are preparations being made for that to happen. I think a number of people in circles around the world are beginning to look at this problem, and are thinking there are serious secrecy issues that need to get resolved.

There are also some promising technologies that they are just beginning to be made aware of. That’s why I tell people, part of this is an educational and “consciousness raising” process. But part of it also is being bold enough to say “we’re prepared to provide the leadership to do this.”

Copyright © 2004 Phenomena Magazine. Reprinted from Phenomena Four.

[daniel]

i think it is quite possible there will be a large-scale, collectively experienced and mass-mediated interpollation of the "Visitors" or the "Greys" into our reality, at some point within the next seven years. This is what David Jacobs book The Threat, and many others, suggests. This is an archetype that is constellating in the collective psyche of humanity, and it has been happening in stages, in its modern form, since the 1940s.

[Agent Smith]

are you familiar with the 'deros'?

these are robotic dwarves from the center of the Earth... the hollow Earth... and apparently had saucer like contraptions back in the 30's... part hoax, part mass hysteria... a precursor to modern 'greys'

i think that the visitations have been ongoing, and that the story changes to fit the expectation... 40's, 50's space was the place...

[forteanajones]

I am reminded of the Calleman prediction: 5th "Day" Nov. 24th, 2006 - Nov. 18th, 2007 (We meet our Galactic neighbors). Right around the corner.

Just saw Agent Smith's - I agree, the set changes periodically but the essential story elements haven't changed much. Keel's ideas support this.

[ December 08, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

[Lowlight]

yeah keel is great. i think you should all check out Hancocks new book Supernatural which goes into this as well and puts it in a Shamanic context.

[daniel]

as for Dna's post above, as what is the point or use of these speculations... this is a difficult case to make. I try to make it in my new book. I would say that you would have to accept the interrelationship btw physical and psychic events, and also that these two realms increasingly seem to be merging.

I think the indeterminacy of this type of phenomena is part of its logic. As McKenna discusses in True Hallucinations, the "other" appears in a form that casts doubt on itself, creating maximum cognitive dissonance, crashing our logical systems and snares.

[Thom]

The 'cognitive dissonanace' argument is very compelling. I've had half a dozen dreams about the greys since Daniels Tom Cruise topic. They all involve some kind of dream like trickery.

The theme seems to be that a large number of people are lured away from earth, or the body, or the emotional being, into a kind of limbo state. Note the Catholic church's recent revision of doctrine on this point.

In one of my dreams a grey alien, poorly disguised as an archetypal ancestor attempted to teach me some dubious shamanic techniques. Around me i could sense other greys watching, curious. The environment was deep under ground, but made up to look like a spaceship. I woke myself up, and felt pretty shaken by the dream.

I wonder of course, whether these dreams wouldn't have occured if I hadn't entertained Daniel's speculation about a literal manifestation.

[ December 11, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Thom ]

[Phlash]

Originally posted by daniel:
i think it is quite possible there will be a large-scale, collectively experienced and mass-mediated interpollation of the "Visitors" or the "Greys" into our reality, at some point within the next seven years. This is what David Jacobs book The Threat, and many others, suggests. This is an archetype that is constellating in the collective psyche of humanity, and it has been happening in stages, in its modern form, since the 1940s.Jacobs was a American Pop Culture prof of mine at Temple University in Philly in the early '90s. Though I was not able to take his UFOs in American Society course, many of my friends did. Most were beyond convinced after taking the course and would spend hours creeping the rest of us out with tidbits from Jacobs. My understanding of Jacob's position is that he is close to the X-files scenario: they are here to breed with us against our will. He has a very negative out look. How does this jive with your notions of the Greys, Daniel?

[daniel]

great question, phlash.

I think that the hypnotherapists - from Jacobs to Mack to Dolores Cannon - are in a sense acting as magicians, ensouling thought-forms (tulpas), through the attention and psychic energy they give to their patients' narratives. Based on their own preconceptions of whether the "alien" entities are benevolent or malevolent, they shape the resulting narratives that emerge through their patients.

This idea may seem quite complex at first, but ultimately I think it is simple. It just requires a shift in perspective to understand it.

Part of what is required is the awareness that, potentially, there is no "singularly true" past - that the past is being continuously reshaped through the activity of consciousness. All that truly exists is the Now, the experience of present awareness. While this Now is of course the result of a huge accumulation of material and inertia - the flow of the past into the present - that past datum can be significantly reshaped and resculpted by consciousness (or, by unconscious forces, if consciousness neglects or negates chunks of data).

I think this is suggested by Streiber's book, Communion, in which he undergoes hypnotherapy as the first episodes of abduction come to light, and begins to discover an entire counter-narrative of his past, including segments of months of "missing time" and huge holes in his personal ontology, that somehow he had never felt the need to address before - perhaps (just perhaps) they didn't exist before. What is actually happening, perhaps, is that the increasing presencing of the abduction narrative, developed in unconscious collusion between Streiber and his therapist (and, potentially, those "others" seeking entry into this dimension), is reshaping reality intrinsically, causing it to ripple and warp and reweave itself around this new self-creating and self-substantiating totem pole of subjective and semi-objective "evidence."

I take absolutely seriously this very powerful and important statement from Nietzsche:

"In the "in-itself" there is nothing of "causal connections," of "necessity," or of "psychological non-freedom"; there the effect does not follow the cause, there is no rule or "law." It is we alone who have devised cause, sequence, for-each-other, relativity, constraint, number, law, freedom, motive, and purpose; and when we project and mix this symbol world into things as if it existed "in itself," we act once more as we have always acted - mythologically."

So with the narrative of the Greys - which apparently has been inserted into our reality through the media, through our dreamscape, through the popular culture which increasing force and insistence, though never acknowledged by the "official" consciousness of academia, the NY Times, etc. - we are seeing something coming increasingly into presence within the collective psyche, an archetype, if you will, that is seeking to escape the barriers of marginality and become a visceral reality, on all levels.

It is not a question of "blaming" Jacobs or Mack or Streiber or Spielberg for helping to substantiate this narrative and bringing it closer to actualization (although I think the situation with Cannon may be different - I think it is quite possible that she is consciously allied with the negative or Ahrimanic energies of the Greys, like perhaps some major figures in the military-industrial complex, although even these figures may flicker in and out of conscious awareness of the type of Faustian bargains they have made), as they are enmeshed in a nondual and integral process that has been beyond their level of awareness to parse. However, to mediate this situation and prevent its most destructive potential ramifications, I believe it is necessary to integrate a more complete understanding of what is happening.

Hope that makes sense...

[Dna]

I like this

... there is no "singularly true" past. ... All that truly exists is the Now. ... While this Now is of course the result of a huge accumulation of material and inertia - the flow of the past into the present - that past datum can be significantly reshaped and resculpted by consciousness. If you wish to improve yourself in some way. You 're-imagine' your past. You are carried in a different direction by the momentum of the changed past/self image. Does that person really change their past though? Could they change the clothes they wore in an old photograph?

From what I remember of the book 'Communion', streiber's 'counter-narrative' did not involve any other human witnesses that corroborate any of the new facts. This is not actually changing the past. This is changing his memory of the past, which is a different thing.

So, while I like the idea very much, I am left with a feeling that it may be only true in a psychological sense, but not materially. The mental picture of the past and the 'objective' past are like oil and water. One cannot influence the other. A changed view of the past can take us to a changed future though and perhaps this is where the 'real world' and the 'mental world' are at one.

What matters is where we are going, not where we have been.

Dna.

[ December 12, 2005, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Dna ]

[M. Twilite]

Wow... I just happened on this thread and it's AMAZING how closely it reflects the visions I had over the weekend, in a zone of seeing where the ability of to re-weave perceptions via thought alone became like an lion that would become loving and lordly or monstrously vicious as my thoughts flowed. Eventually I came to a place where the visions I had were the same as with my eyes closed as open, my head was totally broke open, to borrow Daniel's phrase. As has been with every session in the last month, this was a first, and the "I/We/I AM/You" consciousness I was accessing was merging with what can only be called God consciousness, the other, to whom we are its mirror reflection, but this God consciousness was extending itself out towards a darker energy with a sort of loving inquiry. It wasn't scared, but it wasn't at white light either. It was almost like it was saying "Yo, I have to cut your slow route towards ME short cause the s--t is going DOWN, so grab a flower and when I say "now" stick it in that black thing's rifle.

I think it's in Communion too that Strieber talks about how the greys feed on strong emotions, which means, correct me if I am wrong, dumbed down a shade, they are like pit bulls.

I think five years or so ago we were all wondering what 2012 was going to bring. Now I would say we know what it will bring.

According to my higher power, the only way to win is through unconditional love and acceptance, in short, through "losing."

The thing is, with the knowledge of alien superiority, it's an easy step to "become" the father/law and want to protect the truth from your kids. Remember the dad that's going to shoot his children rather than let the Martians get them in THE NIGHT THAT PANICKED AMERICA? so -- if you believe in God and are merged in the Godhead -- even if the sh*t is hitting the fan as far as God being devoured by a giant space squid, you are not going to scare the kids by admitting you dont have the situation under control. You are going to face up to our collective soul death like the divine I AM, full of love and trust and faith -- the sort that even death at that level cannot rent asunder, not to sound like a natty old Christian scientist or anything, but that's the way it's gotta be down on the ole soul farm, we go out together.

The key here is to convince our poor Father whose holding all the information, that we are all grown up. He assumes that if we realize he's powerless against them we'll freak out and society will topple. The family will be without a dad, and the kids will wail and cry and all hope will be lost. We need to assure him he can put the pistol down and open the bomb shelter door. We don't need the Seven Samurai to protect our rice harvest, we need Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

[Dna]

According to my higher power, the only way to win is through unconditional love and acceptance, in short, through "losing." Yeah, surrender is key. Also humility. At least you have to find a balance between these and active emotions the likes of which we see a lot of in this world.

I have to say though that I don't believe we are about to be invaded by aliens at all. As I see it, our civilisation has floated up to its high water mark on a sea of fossil fuels - starting 200 years back when we started using coal to power the industrial revolution.

Flatly, our immediate problem is the imminent 'peak' in Oil production, which will cause untold economic problems should we allow it. That and climate change are our biggest concerns, in that order.

I don't discount the possibility of alien visitors to our world, and I rest with Daniel's point about there being a link between psychic and physical events.

Dna.

[ December 12, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Dna ]

[M. Twilite]

I dont think of it as an "invasion" so much as a "harvest of panic" which would surely be in tandem with the economic devastation you predict with the close of the fossil fuel phase. If the earth as a soul farm thing has any validity, it would make sense, but then again -- you can't take any of this "literally" because that "I" with which you would take it has to change first into an "I" for whom "literally" has no meaning.

The advantage to calamity of a gloabal perspective is not to be underestimated, either for the old boy power network, or the fans of the dimensional shift. Of course I am, in saying this, adapting a strictly indifferent attitude towards life and death, quality of life, keeping you air conditioner running and the tramps out of your living room, etc.,

I don't imagine it will be a "figurative" invasion, such as Spielberg's War of the Worlds, but rather an abstract one, an encounter wherein the method of perceiving the encounter itself will be what's at stake, a fundamental rift in idealogy that transcends oil and taxes and other trappings of the material world, I mean, on the sub atomic level... will the aliens infect the I/AM/God like a cancer.

I've had visions of all our past and future being "changed" in a way where suddenly it becomes terribly obvious what's been happening all along, like in those movies where the hero realizes he's been "set up" since day one... and that shapeless black forms can pore through all that at the same time: "Quick, giant squids have re-shaped the 1970's!"

The closest a film comes to accurately depicting this is 2001 A Space Odyssey. Even though I find the film dreadfully boring in general, it's the closest cinematic representation to that sort of "peak" experience, at least for me. The idea is not that "we" would all become star embroyos sailing towards earth as Strauss plays on, but rather that the "we" that is humanity as a whole, as a dizzying timeless sea of interacting perspectives, will alter -- film, viewer, director--object and subject, quid, pro and quo--all merge and transfigure into one multi-dimensional perspective, like in the old days of tomorrow right this eternal second... as it was before the bang, and ever shall be.

[ December 12, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: M. Twilite ]

[daniel]

Actually I think ultimately we have the "power" in this situation. The Greys could be seen as goblins or gnomes, in other words, elementals. Rudolf Steiner, and other occult traditions, say that humanity is meant to work with the elementals, that they need us. It is only because the modern consciousness has negated the magical and other-dimensional realities to accept a limited rationality that these entities are taking such vindictive and cruel manifestations - and even so, the Greys are still somewhat ambiguous (as in the dream above where they are teaching shamanic techniques, or in the famous accounts of Betty Andreasson, who was shown a phoenix created by fire during abduction, an alchemical symbol representing the completion of the Great Work.

Our power over them requires reaching a more sophisticated understanding - as in fairytales such as Rumpelstiltskin, when you learn the true name of what threatens you in the imaginal worlds, then that threat begins to dissolve.

[Agent Smith]

i would have to agree with daniel here. only instead of seeing it as 'power over them' i just see it as the ability to interact with them on an equal footing.

and if that means telling them to go away when they're being 'spooky' and unhelpful (or down right threatening), then so be it.

from my research (both personal experiential, and studying the literature), although many 'spirits' can be helpful, alot more are joyriding, looking for as much as they can get away with. whether that's feeding off of fear, angst, or confusion, or even 'love'... our ancestors had sometimes tenuous relationships with various beings.

if you'd like a modern day practical perspective on all of this look into the practices of Santeria. those folks live it everyday. their ways aren't mine, but i deffinitly appreciate the perspective i've gained through learning about them.

with a little grounding, centeredness, and practice it becomes remarkably easy to send beings away when they come a-calling if one's not interested in entertaining them.

my personal feeling is that it's time for humans to clean up our own messes, and quit relying on outside 'help', or 'interference'. once we're on a more even, and balanced footing then re-establishing some sort of dialog with the various 'others' might be appropriet.

after all some factions might not have our best interests at heart.

[Dna]

A thought regarding our place in a galactic community: No civilised community would want to have much to do with a psychologically unbalanced neighbour who leaves garbage in their garden and has poor personal hygene. Agent Smith is right. It is up to us 'to clean up our own messes'.

We can ask for help - and get it but we mostly get guidance so we can get there under our own steam.

[Lowlight]

"No civilised community would want to have much to do with a psychologically unbalanced neighbour who leaves garbage in their garden and has poor personal hygene."

Thats hilariously true!

[M. Twilite]

That's true, but at the same time, they would understandably try to figure out ways to convince this bi-polar neighbor to clean up his garden, so the smell doesn't blow over, and don't forget about all the flies and other vermin it attracts. This gray neighbor is Tom Sawyer smart and so stand by the fence going "Man, let me tell you, cleaning up your garden shore is a lot of fun. Hmmm, yep yep..."

I agree with Daniel about the alien manifestations being shaped by our own emotional currents and I meant my God having cancer metaphor that way too. Professional wrestling would probably work better, since we are trained to see cancer as this malignant unstoppable force of evil, but in fact it is just another actor in a big play. What's going in our out of balance perceptions now is the equivalent of the audience rushing onstage to lynch the heavy in an old west melodrama.

[Thom]

Maybe the separation of rational ego from irrational body and nature, which has been the defining charecteristic of the last few hundred years, while necessary in terms of our ongoing evolution, has also drawn us near realms almost completely cut off from the divine source, known to the Kabbalists as the qlippoth.

The apparent somnambulist apathy or denial in society is a radiation from these intensely material realms. The ruler of the qlippothic realms, Samael, is also the ruler of the sephiroth gevurah, which determines boundaries, imposes limits, prevents cancer, as it were. Heres an essay which explores this line of thought, related to this thread:

http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/essays/GnosticTrail.htm

(Its worth persevering through the lovecraft stuff.)

[Agent Smith]

what are you talking about?

lovecraft trumps any gnostic psuedo cabalistic crapola...

[M. Twilite]

That Lovecraft stuff is out/in there for sure, but you can't believe what those beings say. I forget where in these boards I read that, but it IS true, I mean not/true, I mean.... I just got the fear of death thrown at me big time, with whispers all around my apartment conveniently turning out to be the end of a Mogwai song, among other horrors.

What I want to say is this on the alien subject: There's the God consciousness and there's the impending death consciousness, and I think the alien abduction stuff comes from that impending death consciousness... one definitely gets the idea that there's some gray aliens with their hoes and rakes standing right above your head, getting ready to harvest your fear and emotional energy as soon as they convince you to admit you are dead.

Because if there is no past or future than that's the truth, you are just in denial. WAKE UP, YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD. But that also means you are eternally undead, as in reborn -- but it's hard to access that Christ consciousness when it's this cold out.

To think of an actual alien invasion of spaceships landing on the white house is the same thing as envisioning an actual garden of Eden or heaven and hell with CGI angels ala CONSTANTINE (most excellent movie, by the way) -- which is what -- surprise -- the fundamentalist Christians do believe. This same "literal" attitude may be what comes out in hypnoisis and leads to crazy ass books like THE THREAT which I am going to have to read asap.

These energies are manifested perceptually, but not physically. I remember having a really bad fever and having to jump up and down on my bed and scream and shout to get this demon to turn back into my shelf and stereo system (I'm sure I'm not alone in having the red lights from stereo systems of alarm clocks becoming demonic eyes). This is the line where fiction and fact are not different, and perception defines what is real not vice versa -- aka the dream state.

If one is not a love-vibe surfing psychonaut at the top of his game, it's almost inevitable to fall into the "Hell" section when exploring the unconscious. The hypnotist who uncovers forgotten memories of abductions may be non-partisan, but unless he is going to help you re-envision the grays as sweet-souled ET's sent to lead you to your own pink puffy cloud, you are going to wind up in a full fledged nightmare.

The big 2012 issue could be like the blue state/red state vote... or the blue pill red pill matrix vote. Are we to be plunged into a Lovecraftian eruption of extra-dimensional entities who will run rampant in a high H. Bosch-style? I actually have had several vision of this -- and the scariest part is that it is not going to be just an invasion of the present, but the past as well... the past CEASES to exist as we know it, it collapses into the void like cheap sand. Anyway, that's the red pill/state -- the blue one is transcendence and beauty and love conquers all, and there is a new level of communication and understanding on the earth, amen.

If the vote is split, or Neo wants to take half of each pill, I can see this all fulfilling yet another HG Wells prophecy -- with the Christ consciousness true believer few building a nice emerald city while outside morlocks roaming the Australian desert in search of the last few drops of fuel for the dirt-caked Mad Max style racers. It's written on the wall, most recently by George Romero. Keep watching the screen, I mean the skies! And don't drink the poison kool-aid, no matter how charismatic Jim Jones of Arimathea may be.

I mean, keep watching what's manifesting itself out of the Pollock-esque melange behind your eyelids when you close you eyes... that's where it's all going to go down... hopefully not tonight, because I'm hoping to finish watching THE L WORD Season ONE.

[Agent Smith]

oh no... we're about to witness another weekend long born again conversion...

lovecraft is way kewler than your gawd.

(interesting side note lovecraft suffered from terrifying nightmares, just about everyother night of his life. much of what he wrote about, he witnessed first hand. reading his dream quest cycle with that in mind takes on a different flavor,doesn't it?)

[Dna]

keep watching what's manifesting itself out of the Pollock-esque melange behind your eyelids when you close you eyes... I love that. I do it all the time before sleeping.

Trouble is, none of it makes any sense. I cannot discern any particular messages from what I see.

Should I keep a journal of what I see?

[ December 14, 2005, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Dna ]

[M. Twilite]

Resist the urge to write about it or define it. The "Oh my God, I have to write that down!" feeling is like the ego's last trick to keep itself manifested. Move past it, and let go. If anything, see it all as a mirror of your true self. You have all the time in the world to draw self portraits.

[daniel]

hi twilite,

i enjoyed your long post above. The idea that humanity splits into different "human kingdoms" at the end of this stage is one that Rudolf Steiner discussed in his books - each group undergoing very different future evolutions, perhaps on different "worlds" (the most depraved segment of humanity would eventually be exiled to an irredeemable "moon" undergoing a form of evolution that we can't conceive). It is one of those descriptions of a potential future state that also seems perfectly applicable right now. I also like CS Lewis' idea of "Heaven" (or the afterlife) being a self-chosen condition, in which "everything becomes more and more itself."

[M. Twilite]

Thanks, Daniel.

I must read some of this Mr. Steiner. I'm also looking forward to reading your Q. 2012 book.

Today finds my humbled and full of gratitude to be alive after a near death wiping out off my love wave during some inner voyaging last night, falling into a total panic at the thought I could die, just like that, in my meditation chair... that these beings in the other dimension were going to just grab me up like one more rabbit at the end of a successful hunt and I would face total extinction. Is this some Buddhist warning come true? From now on, I am sparing the lives any insects that may cross my path.

That's an interesting spot to find oneself, since these beings are a creation of the very panic that they inspire... at least to a certain extent. The thought that just the thought of dying could make you die became like an ever tightening noose until I had to abandon my post of total love and retreat to hipster gallows humor bravado. But then I realized something later-- perhaps I did die in that moment, in an alternate reality... and--maybe Steiner has written about this too--maybe no one ever remembers death, or a near death experience, unless they come back into the same body. Hypnosis or drugs might reveal blocked out memories of alien abductions or the agony of the operating table, and deaths past and deaths yet to be, but the consciousness of each of us is rounded by an amazing amnesia that keeps the inevitability of our total extinction from our conscioius memory. Thus if we die we basically have a black out from which we emerge somewhere else never realizing where we were before. Thus are we immortal as souls in this life, and all the other lives ever lived or living are lived only by us/I/you/I am--separated only through collective amnesia. If this amnesia were removed in full, we would all exist in a timeless now and the world would fold back in on itself and we would all merge back into one I AM. I am sure this has all been written before and more coherently... but for me it basically wraps up a lot of mysteries in a tidy little pronoiac package, so I will now go back to chopping wood and carrying water, grateful for the chance to be awed before something larger than myself at this moment.

[daniel]

school's out at last!

[Agent Smith]

yes just think of how proud we'll all feel when we can say the same for you daniel.

[Thom]

M. Twilite wrote, "These energies are manifested perceptually, but not physically."

I totally agree with this, which is why i have difficulty accepting the 'literal manifestation' theory.

I accept though that the distinction between outer and inner worlds is ultimately an artificial one, a tulpa in itself. So...

Agent Smith wrote, "lovecraft trumps any gnostic psuedo cabalistic crapola..."

My mistake with Lovecraft perhaps is that I have always taken his work to be gnostic psuedo cabalistic crapola.

Gotta go..

[Agent Smith]

no, no, you're confusing him with the psuedo-HERMETIC/crowelyian (which isn't the same as cabalistic) 'chaosmagic' adoption of lovecraft's themes, and atmosphere. all form, no substance.

oooh spooky.

lovecraft was just a writer of science fiction. he saw what he was writing about first hand, it wasn't mediated through silly occult traditions. he didn't have an agenda other than a good story.

[Lowlight]

hey Smith just out of interest do you post at abovetopsecret? saw some posts there the other day under your name and was wondering if it was you? it was on 9/11 etc...

[Agent Smith]

nope, not i.

[sidecross]

Originally posted by Agent Smith:
nope, not i.It was Agent Jones using an alias.

[Lowlight]

i figured it wasnt after reading a couple of the imposters posts, (he had little wit and no solipsism)!

[Swami]

Paul Hellyer, Canada's Defence Minister from 1963-67 under Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Prime Minister Lester Pearson, publicly stated: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head."
Real as in misidentified objects, but certainly not real as in space visitors. Note that the political position of the claimant in no way gives more credence to his statement.

Mr. Hellyer went on to say, "I'm so concerned about what the consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just think I had to say something."
*Paranoia alert* Say something or go back on your meds - whichever comes first.

Hellyer revealed, "The secrecy involved in all matters pertaining to the Roswell incident was unparalled.
No it wasn't. Who here can tell us of the history of the Manhattan Project and subprojects affiliated with same?

Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into a intergalactic war without us ever having any warning. He stated, "The Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a
forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and
to shoot at them, if they so decide."
He must be preparing for a second career as a sci-fi screenwriter.

Hellyer's speech ended with a standing ovation. He said, "The time has come to lift the veil of secrecy, and let the truth emerge, so there can be a real and informed debate, about one of the most important problems facing our planet today."
Most important? To whom? To bored middle-class folks? Does the alien threat really supercede cancer, malaria, AIDS, global-warming and international war as a threat? Nice hyperbole though.

[Lowlight]

Im so bored of such reductionalist snake oil bullshit. i dont even care anymore. the world is leaving materialism behind. goodbye.

[Swami]

Logic and reason are reductionist bullshit? Without such tools one cannot tell one fantasy from another. Please do not respond if it causes you such angst.

[Rob P]

.......

troll

.......

[Lowlight]

"Logic and reason are reductionist bullshit? Without such tools one cannot tell one fantasy from another. Please do not respond if it causes you such angst."

Being precedes logic and reason.

Everything is fantasy.

[Swami]

I cannot help but notice that you are using tools created out of logic and reason to decry logic and reason. The irony is mind-boggling.

[sidecross]

Swami are you familiar with Kurt Gödel and his Incompleteness Theorem?

[Rob P]

.......

Hi Sidecross~
Swami is a TROLL=
He/She/It has nothing to add - only negativity -
If you erase the troll from your perspective it will fade away-

Such a sad waste of a human life don't you think??!!


seeya
r o b

.......

[waterthere]

Even mysterious trolls from Grounded might have a purpose hereabouts, yes...? Agreement can be stagnant and unproductive but civilized social friction provokes conflict and negotiating conflict enables growth. Yadda yadda.

For example:

Silly Swami might seem to be an arrogant jerk but the conversation is rolling is it not?

Incidentally, isn't Grounded somewhere in the Mid-West?

A terrible, dirtblind place...

[Rob P]

.......

hi waterthere-
water where?
sure you have a point,
but a troll is a pain in the ass until they prove
otherwise- like maybe having a point
of view instead of simply moronic refutations...

seeya
r o b

werewolf?
there wolf!

.......

[Swami]

Moron? Jerk? Ass? Troll?

Is this the love and maturity that psychedelic experience has taught you? To attack anyone or anything that is not in total agreement? Is this how you properly welcome new members?

Is this place for discussion or not? I have not heard any of you three address a single point. All you have addressed is your warped perception of whom or what you think this poster represents.

Very sad.

[Lowlight]

"I cannot help but notice that you are using tools created out of logic and reason to decry logic and reason. The irony is mind-boggling."

Reason can cause its own destruction. it invalidates itself when it allows for being to come before it. Mind boggling? Yes, but thats the point. Existence is not reasonable. So stop trying to make it conform to human epistemology. We are only a part of the picture.

Rationalism/materialism etc is a cowardly ideology. It walks to the cliff of existence, but does so backwards. It never faces the 'logical' conclusion. It never turns round to face the void behind it.

[ February 09, 2006, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: Lowlight ]

[Rob P]

.......

Hi Swami~
Have you had a psychedelic experience?
Just wondering..
r o b

.......

[willoweyes]

Anyone who chooses, "Truth need not be protected," as their guiding quote is not thinking very well. Or else they are the trumpeters of falsehood.

Don't worry guys, I just fixed his stars.

[sidecross]

Timeout!

Anyone who read my post concerning the human being hardwired to be in groups no larger than 40 (Under the topic of ‘The Trouble with Halpern’ in ‘The Cultural Production’ section,) might see in this episode the point I was trying to make.

The person ‘Swami’ is a case in point. I do not agree with his or her tone or temperament he or she has expressed, but if we were a group of no more than 9 do you think the same tone of expression would be shown?

Being a jerk is quite human; I have been one myself. What I try to do is to learn from being a jerk. Until we can see a connection between ‘them’ and ‘us’ we will be the same folly only dressed in vanity.

Whether a troll, jerk, or someone with incomplete thought out ideas, Swami deserves no response or else one with good argument.

Time In!

[willoweyes]

Sidecross, tribal culture mandates an initiation period for those outside the tribe who wish to join. As do wolf packs. If you want to be accepted, you had best plan on rolling over on your back and submitting. A wolf who comes in snapping had better be ready to fight.

As far as the line, "The truth needs no defense" goes--I feel that is a ridiculous statement that deserves to be challenged, and frankly, cannot be defended. Do I need to explain why?

[sidecross]

No.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by willoweyes:
Sidecross, tribal culture mandates an initiation period for those outside the tribe who wish to join. As do wolf packs. If you want to be accepted, you had best plan on rolling over on your back and submitting. A wolf who comes in snapping had better be ready to fight.

As far as the line, "The truth needs no defense" goes--I feel that is a ridiculous statement that deserves to be challenged, and frankly, cannot be defended. Do I need to explain why?Is this a wolf pack or a civilized discussion group? I'm new here, too, and I can't say I appreciate the greeting received by someone with a differing opinion.

Why not ask questions rather than go on the attack? Wolves cannot ask questions, and rely on a strict hierarchy in order to maintain the integrity of their pack. What threat is it to your established ideas when an outsider questions or disagrees?

And the quote is "the truth needs no PROTECTION," not "the truth needs no defense." Either way, you obviously disagree. It seems that your truths are so fragile that they need an aggressive wolf-pack to defend them from destruction.

Why do you all feel the need to protect what you believe is true? If you are benefitting from these beliefs, then no mere internet post can detract from that.

I am disappointed to see such reactionary behavior on a site called "Breaking Open the Head." Isn't part of the revolution supposed to occur within? How revolutionary is it if the only people who are welcome here are the ones who will roll over on their backs and say "yessir, I agree." That's the same old story we've all been living with in "traditional" society.

"Either you're with us or against us." "America, love it or leave it."

Why import it here?

[sidecross]

willoweyes & sidecross are good friends; willoweyes remarks would be hard to interpret without this known fact.

Willoweyes also ended up with a lame horse today; anyone who knows of this experience would understand as I do that her remarks should be taken with this knowledge.

My apologies to willoweyes for bringing up the issue of the horse without permission, but to me her response under these circumstances are to be taken into consideration. Everyone has had a ‘bad hair day’ now and then.

Post Script to edit.

The quote ‘bad hair day’ is from a term Deb Bennett Ph.D. a well known horse trainer and Director of Equine Studies Institute would use. Both willoweyes & sidecross have had contact with this wonderful horse person.

[ February 09, 2006, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: sidecross ]

[Veritas]

I appreciate your allegiance to your friend, and putting her remarks in the context which you believe has influenced her response.

What of the others who immediately jumped in to insult and demean a new member who posted an opposing POV? I noticed that you requested/suggested alternatives to their personalisms, but their remarks were allowed to stand. Is this SOP?

I am put off by the idea that flaming is OK so long as it is directed at the newbie dissenter.

[sidecross]

Originally posted by Veritas:
I appreciate your allegiance to your friend, and putting her remarks in the context which you believe has influenced her response.

What of the others who immediately jumped in to insult and demean a new member who posted an opposing POV? I noticed that you requested/suggested alternatives to their personalisms, but their remarks were allowed to stand. Is this SOP?

I am put off by the idea that flaming is OK so long as it is directed at the newbie dissenter.I agree with you that this is not the kind of response I would like to expect to new people who post.

If you read my post concerning the human being hardwired for being in groups no larger than 40, then the kind of response we both regret is part of the current human dilemma that shows no discrimination in where it shows up.

What we can do is what we have both done, and that is to point to it every time it appears.

[willoweyes]

Veritas, my allusion to a wolf pack was a response to Sidecross's generous and reasonable suggestion that this group was not treating Swami like a member of the tribe. It was meant to be metaphorical, and I hope Swami has not experienced any actual fang marks in consequence.

I do not like the phrase, "The Truth need not be protected." To me, this phrase implies that the truth can and will stand on its own, and does not need people like Rosa Parks, Eleanor Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter, Paul Wellstone, Martin Luther King; to take a stand and defend it. In my world the truth, like innocence and beauty, needs vigorous defenders, or it risks being drowned in a sea of lies.

[waterthere]

Hey Swami,

In the end you seem to be asking us to defend our experience in terms of Logic and 'Material Evidence' (or whatever) but I think most folks hereabouts have dropped or balanced that line of defense and argument awhile back. Logic doesn't explain much of what I've experienced in Life and certainly doesn't explain the best parts of Life. It's been a useful tool, obviously, and one that you seem adept at using, but its authority is actually pretty limited---it's just not always compatible with the truth.

The dogma commonly upheld in 'Grounded' just seems to be an old ruse and events that happen thereabouts merely the tip of an unimaginable iceberg. If you actually have been 'around the block' as you claim, maybe you could try a different block or better yet stop with the walking/walking already and watch a plant live Life for awhile. They don't lean on Logic...

waterthere

[Lowlight]

I am hardly ever rude etc to anyone who joins this board - most come here with some sense of humility and in a postively questioning way, and thats great.

some dont.

If someone joins up, and then starts to post on multiple topics about how the other points of view other than their own are basically pointless or wrong then you will be challenged.

waterthere is right. Most here have left deeply materialistic viewpoints behind to one extent or another. Look at its fruits, 100 million dead in the 20th century from war alone. The Holocaust was rational and logical...in the context of Nazism, so im not too keen on views which hold it up as the be all and end all.

Also, as i said in another post in response to swami, im not attacking the person, im attacking the ideas.

peace

[ February 21, 2006, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Lowlight ]

[craazyman]

A rational poster named Swam'
Proffered some mental salam'
as food for the board
but instead he got gored
and sliced into pieces of ham

Hey Swami/Veritas, don't be so tender. Load back up and stoke the delightful roar. The Gaian sailboat needs some ballast, lest she capsize. But logic is a boring dog chasing its tail believing that it's doing something profound.

[nanouk]

*L*

nice limerick, craazy...

i am curious or interested, rather, to hear what he/she actually does believe, there is nothing wrong with agnosticism or atheism, a little doubt or nihilism. in my own insignificant opinion, questioning is healthy, and discovery of personal 'truth' essential.

this is, what i believe the multidimensional universe is all about, we can walk side by side along a street, or through life, but exist on completely different planes.

~n~

[ February 10, 2006, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: nanouk ]

[Veritas]

Originally posted by willoweyes:
I do not like the phrase, "The Truth need not be protected." To me, this phrase implies that the truth can and will stand on its own, and does not need people like Rosa Parks, Eleanor Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter, Paul Wellstone, Martin Luther King; to take a stand and defend it. In my world the truth, like innocence and beauty, needs vigorous defenders, or it risks being drowned in a sea of lies.I have a different POV on the truth.

In the cases you mentioned, the truth did not need protection. It existed independent of the current behaviors of flawed humans. Prejudice, greed, dishonesty, cruelty, etc...are not attacking the truth.

The crusaders you wish to emulate believed that the truth was self-evident, but the actions of others were not aligned with the truth. They dedicated their lives to changing perception of what was right and true. They worked to change flawed social structures and laws which enforced faulty perception of the truth.

The truth never changed, was never threatened, and never needed them to protect it. It stood as a shining beacon to guide them as they challenged the stormy sea of human frailty and fear.

I do not think that our beliefs really differ, willoweyes. ;)

[Swami]

Originally posted by Lowlight:
[QB]I am hardly ever rude etc to anyone who joins this board... /QB]The source of rudeness lies within you, not from some random poster. One can only exhibit the qualities that one already has. To only be nice to those who share your POV is immature to say the least.

As to logic, you guys are all too funny. You generally use logic to try to prove the myth of non-human crop circles quoting nonsense such as abnormal radiation levels and shaken-but-not-stirred stalks.

The reality is that completely proven human-made circles (as in videotaped from start to finish) have been declared by leading 'cereologists' using all their own criterion and equipment to be of non-human origin - and, of course - were completely in error.

The truth shall set you free; unless you don't like it.

[ February 21, 2006, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Swami ]

[Thom]

Swami,

It seems to me that people here are trying to think about 'what constitutes reality' in a way that embraces visionary experiences. Whereas our mainstream culture in the west dismisses the mystic as deluded, and the shaman as a conman, i for one think its well worth investigating.

If we entertain the notion that the mystical traditions provide a more accurate map of reality than western materialism, then crop circles are worth investigating, as are psychedelics, traditional belief systems, other dimensions, the existence of god and other seemingly ludicrous stuff. Its a lot of fun, even if only as a thought experiment.

For a more scientific take on mysticism, here's and interview with the physicist Amit Goswami, which i think is worth reading if you're interested in the discussion that goes on here.

http://twm.co.nz/goswam1.htm

An Interview with Amit Goswami

[Abridged]
by Craig Hamilton - What is Enlightment?

WIE: In your book The Self-Aware Universe you speak about the need for a paradigm shift. Could you talk a bit about how you conceive of that shift? From what to what?

Amit Goswami: The current worldview has it that everything is made of matter, and everything can be reduced to the elementary particles of matter, the basic constituents—building blocks—of matter. And cause arises from the interactions of these basic building blocks or elementary particles; elementary particles make atoms, atoms make molecules, molecules make cells, and cells make brain. But all the way, the ultimate cause is always the interactions between the elementary particles. This is the belief—all cause moves from the elementary particles. This is what we call "upward causation." So in this view, what human beings—you and I—think of as our free will does not really exist. It is only an epiphenomenon or secondary phenomenon, secondary to the causal power of matter. And any causal power that we seem to be able to exert on matter is just an illusion. This is the current paradigm.

Now, the opposite view is that everything starts with consciousness.That is, consciousness is the ground of all being. In this view, consciousness imposes "downward causation." In other words, our free will is real. When we act in the world we really are acting with causal power. This view does not deny that matter also has causal potency—it does not deny that there is causal power from elementary particles upward, so there is upward causation—but in addition it insists that there is also downward causation. It shows up in our creativity and acts of free will, or when we make moral decisions. In those occasions we are actually witnessing downward causation by consciousness.


[ February 20, 2006, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Thom ]

[Lowlight]

"The source of rudeness lies within you, not from some random poster. One can only exhibit the qualities that one already has. To only be nice to those who share your POV is immature to say the least"

everything lies inside me. Im very immature to say the least. I am a crop circle. just words, thats all it is, just words. The sun sets and the sun rises. One day Shekhinah will marry Tiferet. All in the sky, because thats where im going. disappear...

[willoweyes]

Thom and Lowlight, thanks for these posts, verging on poetry.

Just after I hit the send button on my last intemperate post, the thought hit me: "Maybe Veritas and Swami mean this by their aphorism, "Truth need not be protected":

so many in our world protect the truth by keeping it from us (envision a sneering Jack Nickleson saying, "You can't HANDLE the truth")

I focused on "Truth need not be defended" a different proposition entirely, and not on point--forgetting two commandments: that words are magic, and the truth is an arrow with two heads.

I am chastened.

Here is a truth that need not be protected: Swami came in here swaggering, and asking for a row. Like a drunken football fan.

All you who shudder, and turn your sensitive expectations from the sight of gore--hah!

You know you love it when the action heats up.

[Swami]

Originally posted by willoweyes:
...the thought hit me: "Maybe Veritas and Swami mean this by their aphorism, "Truth need not be protected"

I focused on "Truth need not be defended" a different proposition entirely*Ahem* So amazingly you decided to actually read exactly what I wrote instead of what you thought I wrote. How refreshing!

Here is a truth that need not be protected: Swami came in here swaggering, and asking for a row. Like a drunken football fan..[/QB]Again and again you fail to address what I wrote instead swinging blindly at some phantom you created.

I got the exact same response from believers when I pointed out the danger in the 'Mothership behind the Comet' nonsense and then come to discover with deep sadness an acquaintance and many others who committed suicide in the Heaven's Gate Cult.

I am evil that way. *A tear dribbles down Swami's cheek*

Delusion never leads to health and wholeness.

[Isaiah Mpski]

Then let me ask this?
Did Jesus have a human father?

[willoweyes]

Isaiah, I would say that of course Jesus had a human father--but what does that mean? When the magic is there, a human becomes a god.

Oh bother swami, it's so tedious to parse meanings and so cathartic to wale about with my baseball bat.

It seems that several here have attempted to explain why logic can only take one halfway, but you haven't been listening.

I just read an interview with David Abram (author of "The Spell of the Sensuous"). He points out that magic is in fact magic, although we must (in the service of logic) prove that it is only a trick. The magic might occur in that moment when we pretend we know how it was done, and turn away, satisfied.

I hate to be cruel (a tear trickles down my cheek) but perhaps if you would allow yourself to open to the wonder, you might be able to understand and affect future deluded cometwatchers.

[Isaiah Mpski]

What does that mean?
What are you a paranoid pothead?

In Swami philosopy it would mean that the myth of Jesus would be built on a lie and that would make it destined to fail.

[willoweyes]

I confess--Guilty!

I mean that Jesus' father was a man and a god, just as Jesus was. "A myth" is only a story we must believe; we're hardwired that way. But god becoming man--that's the essense of magic.

[sidecross]

I often wonder how different things could have been if the daughter of god came in place of Jesus!

[Thom]

Since this thread has invoked Jesus again, I'd like to try and address M. Twilites posts on page 2 and 3, which said, among other interesting things that, ' it's hard to access that Christ consciousness when it's this cold out.'

It is only in our consensus world view of separation from the divine source that entities can have any power over us. Dividing the world up into cruel and kind, fair and unfair, sane and insane, wolf and bison, leaf and tree, is obviously something we must do - it may even be hardwired into our cognitive apparatus. Trouble is, this can become an obsession as we divide everything again and again, until we forget the essential underlying unity - like looking through a shattered window instead of a clear one. It is easy to forget our connection with our neighbours, who we see everyday - it is so much more easier to forget our connection with the divine original unity (god - but thats a loaded word).

It seems to me that human 'being' is stretched in a chain through a few dimensions of perception. We can get trapped in this consensual one. Like getting bound in a lead shroud, fail to see things as they truly are. (I love the quote from the ayahuasquero in Daniel's book 'the tip of my spirit cuts through everything.')

The gnostic christ sees not the same world that i see - 'the kingdom of god is spread all around only men do not see it.' Christ is seeing from an 'ego-free' perspective, from the heart, if you like, instead of from the personality. He is seeing the immanent glow of the ever-presesnt origin.

If a negative 'strange attractor' is seeking to drag people into a world of broken glass and permanent separation, then it is trying to do it now. The illusory gap between heaven and earth may seem more real to us than it has to any other prior human civilization. Seeing through this illusion would require little more than living a connection with the source of being. Not just having an intellectual apprehension of it, but an actual lived awareness. Tricky, but essential if we are going to see a world worth living in before our kids take over from us.

Anyway, i hope this makes sense, i'm writing from a web of loud music, a tv playing, a dog barking and people chattering away...and so im very stressed out, and trying to separate from my environment and write :rolleyes:

[Isaiah Mpski]

Yeah Thom,I tried writing for a spell to seperate myself and have now progressed to the next best things-sex,eating,and sleeping.
Winters are hell here in Oklahoma.I've said for twenty years now I wouldn't spend another winter here,but here I am yet.Snow and ice on the ground outside.Cloudy as hell.
I think sidecross you're putting the cart before the horse when it comes to the evolution of woman.
"..for my daughter's name is Sunni..."

Says this God who follows Jesus.

[ February 22, 2006, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Isaiah Mpski ]