Anyone else watching "taken?"

[Argon Steele]

It's kind of sick in some ways, lot of supressed edipal stuff, more about divorce than aliens. But still somehow I haven't missed an episode yet. Does a good job of ripping off just about every sci-fi alien story ever, and "humanizing" the alien abduction mythology.

Anyone else watching?

[michael heany]

I watched the first few episodes, but I lost interest. The second generation of people they follow are not as interesting. I'll watch the last episode to find out what happens.

[chi]

I actually think the series is pretty compelling, less for the idea of alien abduction and more for the idea that we as humans are more alien to ourselves and others than any real alien would be. I think some of the evil human characters were quite chilling. I was unable to eat my breakfast the other morning as I kept thinking about that scene where they open up Jesse's father's brain...What I fail to understand is why they (and every other movie or tv show) depict the aliens'physicality so stupidly as if aliens really would walk around naked and look like ET! You would think they could use a little more imagination. But I guess you just have to be symbolic out of a lack of reference points!

[michael heany]

I don't think they look like ET. If anything, ET looks like them (and then only vaguely). The picture of the beings you get in this show are very similar to the "Grays" that abductees have described, independently and before all this stuff got into the common culture, now possibly contaminating the reports of even those who had no prior interest in UFOs. This was not the way they were pictured when UFO movies first started up in the 50's. These correspondances among the reports of earlier abductees and other striking correspondances besides indicate that the abductee's reports are not easily explained as fantasy drawn from the common culture.

For example,one study looked at this, drawing from a random sample of individuals, and asked them to create an abduction narrative, structuring the questions so that they would be able to make something like the typical abduction report. If the abduction reports could be explained as some sort of coalescence of cultural influence, then we would expect the sample to produce similar reports when prompted. But the narratives and all the elements therein vary widely, and do not converge anywhere near the typical abduction narrative.

Another point of interest. One researcher has noted that the descriptions of medical instruments used by the aliens should be seen to have some sort of parallel with medical procedures that are experienced or seen on TV. But the divergence there is great too.

I have read that insects play a significant role in the journies of shamans (is this in Daniel's book?). The insectile features of the Grays are undeniable, and I wouldn't be surprised if some deep relationship between these experiences comes to light.

[ericg]

Some thought about "Taken":

It's always encouraging to see something in the media that raises the possibility of there being intelligent life outside of our reality.
Naturally, if the government knows anything at all about life outside our planet or dimension, it will conceal it.
I remember reading a book years ago - "Remote Viewing" - which touched on the suject of UFO's and aliens. This books presents the possibilty that there are a wide variety of aliens - some gray, some reptile-like, etc. They are apparently experimenting with us. Perhaps they should abduct some politicians.

[chi]

I just realized that the company i work for is surely a group of aliens who are experimenting on me on a daily basis! What a relief! I thought it was me who was odd... ;)

[nathan]

hi,
i was referred to the book by jessica from arden delaware.so far the book is compelling.as for the show taken.the only really good character was the agent from the roswell crash.the rest of it was lame.the good guys were too good to point were it was sickening and villians were too psychotic as the series progressed.science-fiction films in the us were showing promise a few years ago now it's really gone down hill taken and that product placment hell minority report are prime examples.i'll stick to my animes thank you which capture the concepts of science-fiction novels a hell of a lot better.actually anime has been using the chariot of the gods theory better and much longer than american live action sci-fi.i will elaborate on that in other messages.

[daniel]

I have a perspective and a theory on the "Greys," which I will share here in a compacted form. I feel like I understand this now, but I haven't been able to convey imy understanding properly. And it is important! And wild!

First of all, I suspect the greys are the "demons with frog faces" mentioned in the Book of Revelation, whose events are now unfolding. Secondly, they are goblins or gnomes - evil earth spirits. Thirdly, they are Ahrimanic beings. Fourth, they have a nasty plan.

Rudolf Steiner splits the Christian devil into two different realms of beings, Ahrimanic and Luciferic. Ahriman is the demon of materialism - he seeks to drag humanity toward materialism, material technologies, minerality, and death. Right now is the great moment of Ahriman's ascendance - as the pre-historical period saw the ascendance of Lucifer. Steiner thought that Ahriman was going to incarnate in this century.

So the contemporary emergence of the Greys goes along with our fascination with material technology - they present themselves as highly advanced technological beings who are "watchers" and helpers of humanity. In fact, they lack feelings and they lack souls - in the Islamic tradition they are known as pre-Adamic soulless entities. They are obsessed with humanity because they recognize their lack of feeling and soul - they are not "God's children" -- and it causes them tremendous suffering.

The alien abduction / hybrid breeding program is a clear literalization of Steiner's notion of Ahriman incarnating - these Greys are seeking to enter the stream of human incarnation to acquire souls and power over us.

If you read David Jacobs' book The Threat and CLR James' book Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind, and you understand Steiner's concetions, then a clear picture emerges of what is going on. According to Steiner, Ahriman's realm is beneath the physical realm of current human existence in the "Lower Astral Plane." The Greys are setting up a scenario where, once our inevitable societal breakdown occurs in the next ten years, they are going to swoop in and convince people they are a super-alien race, and drag humans deluded by material technology down into the lower astral plane where they are going to continue experimenting on them and generally enslaving them. They have seeded this entire narrative structure into the culture through Spielberg, Jacobs, Delores Cannon, etc.

Every form of being has a purpose and function in the cosmos. MY guess is that the Greys - like the goblins Steiner writes about in Harmony of the Creative Word - have a functional task of helping to hold the physical universe together on perhaps a quantum level. Since we live in a free will universe, it is each individual's choice - a choice determined over their current and past incarnations -- to fall into the Grey's delusional scheme or realize it as a lie.

I would even go further than this and suggest that one of the reasons for the entire development of material technological civilization is going to turn out to be the paying back of this ancient debt to these soulless entities through a donation of a large number of confused and amnesiac (of their true spiritual origin) human souls for them to use for their own purposes.

[Anita]

great post Daniel!
Goes right into my question about demons and what they are and how to fight them.I would add that this is of course nothing new.The industrial revolution with all the terribleness it entailed,from destruction of sacred earth to childlabour was one of those monumental leaps.
I am solidly leaning toward that nonviolence and opening of the heart is the ONLY way to combat those beings,here and now as well as when(if)they obtain material form.
Been reading a lot on the seven deadly sins and stuff like that.Amazing how many inroads to the destruction of our link to God there is......
CS Lewis'The screwtape letters is an easy read and still hold its own after these many years...
Anita

[nathan]

hey daniel,
your theory is good.i don't think all of the greys are evil or all aliens are evil.i think that partcular group's leaders are doing wrong though.aliens i believe are complex society.the problem with popular culture is aliens are either messianic or demonic.a more complicated culture represents more complicated problems that we probalbly don't reall understand.i definitely feel that are differen types of aliens with different agendas.it's like white culture years ago when it came non-whites.those who are sympathetic and those who see us as a threat to their existence.i also wanna get your take on phillip k. dick's valis experience. nathan

[nathan]

oh hello again,
spaeking of science fiction media.there is a book called hollywood vs. the aliens by bruce rux exploring the idea that science fiction was used as disinformation by the gov't and educational purposes to open people's minds to aliens and other supernatural possibilities.it talks about the early days as literature with writers such as h.g. wells having connections with groups like the masons who had knowledge of an alien pressence on earth.it talks about 50's ufo b-movies being made to make the idea of aliens laughable after roswell.only one of that era that took the idea seriously really was day the earth stood still which was part of program to make the idea more believable and then it explores the 70's when carter was in office when he was looking for knowledge about ufos and movies such as star wars,close encounters,and man who fell to earth were produced.he also implies that carter's probing into the ufo subject helped get him out of office due to the fact he was seen as a threat to uncovering secrets.

[daniel]

Nathan writes: "spaeking of science fiction media.there is a book called hollywood vs. the aliens by bruce rux exploring the idea that science fiction was used as disinformation by the gov't and educational purposes to open people's minds to aliens and other supernatural possibilities.it talks about the early days as literature with writers such as h.g. wells having connections with groups like the masons who had knowledge of an alien pressence on earth.it talks about 50's ufo b-movies being made to make the idea of aliens laughable after roswell.only one of that era that took the idea seriously really was day the earth stood still which was part of program to make the idea more believable and then it explores the 70's when carter was in office when he was looking for knowledge about ufos and movies such as star wars,close encounters,and man who fell to earth were produced.he also implies that carter's probing into the ufo subject helped get him out of office due to the fact he was seen as a threat to uncovering secrets."

The whole notion of a cover-up is possible, plausible, enticing in some way, but maybe ultimately beside the point (?). The government may be covering up the fact that they are aware of these entities on some level, but have no idea what they are doing or why, or how to influence their behavior. Then again, maybe it is something weirder and deeper and darker.

Whenever I try to look into this area or think about it seriously, it seems to disintegrate into something greyish and hypnagogic and almost smutty. And then, I start to get strange dreams…

[SteveDionysianUnderground]

Have you read the 'Stargate Conspiracy' or the even more interesting 'Changing Images of Man'? Mentioned in the former.

Originally posted by daniel:
Nathan writes: "spaeking of science fiction media.there is a book called hollywood vs. the aliens by bruce rux exploring the idea that science fiction was used as disinformation by the gov't and educational purposes to open people's minds to aliens and other supernatural possibilities.it talks about the early days as literature with writers such as h.g. wells having connections with groups like the masons who had knowledge of an alien pressence on earth.it talks about 50's ufo b-movies being made to make the idea of aliens laughable after roswell.only one of that era that took the idea seriously really was day the earth stood still which was part of program to make the idea more believable and then it explores the 70's when carter was in office when he was looking for knowledge about ufos and movies such as star wars,close encounters,and man who fell to earth were produced.he also implies that carter's probing into the ufo subject helped get him out of office due to the fact he was seen as a threat to uncovering secrets."

The whole notion of a cover-up is possible, plausible, enticing in some way, but maybe ultimately beside the point (?). The government may be covering up the fact that they are aware of these entities on some level, but have no idea what they are doing or why, or how to influence their behavior. Then again, maybe it is something weirder and deeper and darker.

Whenever I try to look into this area or think about it seriously, it seems to disintegrate into something greyish and hypnagogic and almost smutty. And then, I start to get strange dreams…

[SteveDionysianUnderground]

I must try and remember to watch the final episode
of Taken, but does anyone have any tips on how to stay awake during it?

One thing I do like about it is it shows a shift away from the purely biological alien to the alien who can shapeshift (even though they still look like greys 'really').

This is welcome, but I think needs to be taken further. After studying UFO phenomenon for years (and having a few experiences myself) I've moved more and more from the 'nuts and bolts'/'tin can' position of my youth to one closer to Keel's and Vallee's. That is we are dealing with an intelligence that is not 'physical' in origin and may be a lot closer to home than we realise.

Originally posted by Argon Steele:
It's kind of sick in some ways, lot of supressed edipal stuff, more about divorce than aliens. But still somehow I haven't missed an episode yet. Does a good job of ripping off just about every sci-fi alien story ever, and "humanizing" the alien abduction mythology.

Anyone else watching?

[paul]

^^^

steve
you sound like yr fairly up to dat with the ufo fraternity, so im curious...

i remeber reading in nexus a few years back of ufo reports over iran before the revolution and again over iraq just before the last gulf war

...have you come across any reports of sightings over the gulf in the last few months????
(stealth bomber flights excluded)

personally i agree with you the,re more likely extra-dimensional than extra-terrestrial- possibly even our (evolved?) future selves????

[SteveDionysianUnderground]

Haven't heard of any UFO reports over Iraq recently (which is quite surprising considering all the secret aircraft no doubt in the air).

I read those earlier reports too. This phenomena always seems to seek out trouble spots, not only wars, but accidents, disasters and earthquakes etc. As well as more positive historical events (including the moon landing).

Maybe they are just time tourists?

Originally posted by paul:
^^^

steve
you sound like yr fairly up to dat with the ufo fraternity, so im curious...

i remeber reading in nexus a few years back of ufo reports over iran before the revolution and again over iraq just before the last gulf war

...have you come across any reports of sightings over the gulf in the last few months????
(stealth bomber flights excluded)

personally i agree with you the,re more likely extra-dimensional than extra-terrestrial- possibly even our (evolved?) future selves????

[paul]

steve

ever hear the theory that humanity has become so obsessed with technology the only way god can manifest himself and be taken seriously is in the form of an extraterrestrial technologically advanced society..

(only kidding) smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[NLB]

Daniel, I was not aware of those entities you describe as pre-Adamic and soulless. You write "they are not "God's children" and it causes them tremendous suffering". What do you mean exactly by "they are not God's children"? Would they not have been a creation of God initially, in the same way than fallen angels would be in the Christian tradition? Would there not be a path of evolution for them as well towards the universal "glue" of love and lightness? If everything comes from lightness as it is written in the Bible (Ecclesiast), then all would one day return to lightness (?) Or are they stuck there forever?
Nathalie

[daniel]

Hi Nathalie,

I cobbled together the theory from various readings and conversations with people, and thoughts over time. I don't have one pristine source. Below, I have put down my thoughts on the subject from an interview in The Fortean Times, conducted by email. As I said in the piece, they may be something like "cosmic liver cells" with a particular function, and their kind of consciousness may be different than ours. I think they are also Ahrimanic, and a foreshadowing of the mechanistic direction in which we are heading.

If you look at the overriding fantasy/metaphor of 'Artificial Intelligence,' it is the fear/fascination with making machines into conscious intelligences (or 'souls'). I think this may mask the deeper worry: Not that machines may become conscious beings through a process of technological evolution, but that conscious beings can become machines through intense psychic conditioning, or deevolution. Technology as it is now being used seems to lead toward 'desouling.' This is part of the threat/warning of the "Greys" to me - they seem like entities who have been desouled, or always were desouled, due to a fascination with control.

From Fortean:

Question: * Your thoughts on apocalypse remind me of statements of many people who
undergo "alien abduction" experiences. Personally I don't believe that these
are physical, literal alien kidnappings (though of course they still could
be!), but something more metaphysical - spontaneous encounters with some
kind of sentient Other, or perhaps a usually dormant part of the
experiencers' own mind. Have you spoken to any such experiencers, or read
any of the literature of John Mack, Whitley Strieber and others?

Answer: William Irwin Thompson connects the realms of elemental beings to the cellular evolution that has taken place on Earth. He associates goblins with the anaerobic bacteria which once covered the planet and now lives under the earth and in our wastes and trash; fairies are the "overmind" of cyanobacteria, inventors of photosynthesis and defeaters of the forces of darkness in ancient folktales. We humans are somehow the "overmind" of the eukaryotic cells that make up our body. The goblins have not forgiven us for taking over the planet. In Islamic mysticism, they are pre-Adamic, soulless entities. They are intelligent and telepathic but they lack affective emotion, and they suffer for that lack. They are seeking to gain souls by entering the stream of human incarnation.
If you read the abduction accounts, there are repeated descriptions of humans brought to play with "alien" or "hybrid" children. These children are completely morose. They have their own toys and blocks – but where our blocks show different letters and colors when turned, their blocks actually emit different emotions. In other words, the "aliens" are trying, desperately, to learn how to have feelings.
Steiner has extraordinary descriptions of the goblins and gnomes in his book, "Harmony of the Creative Word." He describes them as beings made up entirely of sense. They are far more cunning than we are, and they move along veins of metal and minerals in the Earth. Cosmic information streams down into the plants from all over the universe, from the sun and the stars, and the goblins go around gathering up this knowledge from the roots of the plants, and pushing the plants back up into the air. They have to remain sharp and aware at all times, because if they lose their focus even for an instant, they dematerialize (according to Steiner, they actually rise up to the surface of the Earth and instantly turn into toads and amphibians, and for this reason they have a horror of toads).. According to Steiner, when we go to sleep at night, goblins come to us and put a mask over our eyes so we cannot see into the "spiritual realms" – if we could remain awake during this, we would have the unpleasant sensation of being entombed by goblins.
If you look at the decades of the abduction scenario, you could see it as a kind of "staging." First, in the 1940s, there are thousands of accounts of UFOs across the world, and some cryptic stories of crashes. Then, in the 1950s, people see aliens fixing UFOs, and the abductions begin. Through the 1960s until today, the "story" of the abductions has been elaborated into the complex narrative described by Whitley Streiber, Delores Cannon, David Jacobs, Spielberg, and others. There is an extraordinary mass-cultural appetite for this story, this "meme."
Where do memes and stories come from? Do we generate them? Crowley described ideas as extra-dimensional objects that pass through the realm of human consciousness the way a three-dimensional shape passes through "flatland." The entire alien abduction scenario seems to be a carefully orchestrated trap designed to fool humans into giving these beings energy through their belief in them. In some way, perhaps, if the phenomenon gains enough psychic energy it will be able to burst out of the "imaginal" or hypnagogic borderline realm where it seems to reside now into our "literal" reality.
I sometimes think about these entities as something like cosmic liver cells. Gurdjieff described the process of evolution as breaking down a huge amount of dead matter to release new energies. Modern materialists are most susceptible to seeing these entities as helpful aliens rather than negative forces or trickster spirits. Those human beings who choose to remain trapped in a limited materialist conception of reality may be in danger of becoming inert matter to be utilized in this strange, and long-prepared, scheme.

[daniel]

sorry - I left out the first paragraph of my response. Here it is below:

Question: * Your thoughts on apocalypse remind me of statements of many people who
undergo "alien abduction" experiences. Personally I don't believe that these
are physical, literal alien kidnappings (though of course they still could
be!), but something more metaphysical - spontaneous encounters with some
kind of sentient Other, or perhaps a usually dormant part of the
experiencers' own mind. Have you spoken to any such experiencers, or read
any of the literature of John Mack, Whitley Strieber and others?

Answer: I think Vallee had the basic answer in "Passport to Mangonia": The "aliens" are the modern retread of the goblins and gnomes of the Elemental Kingdom. Pretending to be extraterrestrials, they are actually "intraterrestrials," beings of darkness who live under the Earth – most of the abductions take place near faults or "Ley Lines," and many details of the encounters suggest these beings are actually coming up from underneath rather than down from space. Just as we have been undergoing a technological revolution, it seems that the goblins have as well. They are obviously making a big play for us right now. I have a complex sense of what is happening – and how it ties in with the larger current crisis in the evolution of human consciousness.
William Irwin Thompson connects the realms of elemental beings to the cellular evolution that has taken place on Earth. He associates goblins with the anaerobic bacteria which once covered the planet and now lives under the earth and in our wastes and trash; fairies are the "overmind" of cyanobacteria, inventors of photosynthesis and defeaters of the forces of darkness in ancient folktales. We humans are somehow the "overmind" of the eukaryotic cells that make up our body. The goblins have not forgiven us for taking over the planet. In Islamic mysticism, they are pre-Adamic, soulless entities. They are intelligent and telepathic but they lack affective emotion, and they suffer for that lack. They are seeking to gain souls by entering the stream of human incarnation.
If you read the abduction accounts, there are repeated descriptions of humans brought to play with "alien" or "hybrid" children. These children are completely morose. They have their own toys and blocks – but where our blocks show different letters and colors when turned, their blocks actually emit different emotions. In other words, the "aliens" are trying, desperately, to learn how to have feelings.
Steiner has extraordinary descriptions of the goblins and gnomes in his book, "Harmony of the Creative Word." He describes them as beings made up entirely of sense. They are far more cunning than we are, and they move along veins of metal and minerals in the Earth. Cosmic information streams down into the plants from all over the universe, from the sun and the stars, and the goblins go around gathering up this knowledge from the roots of the plants, and pushing the plants back up into the air. They have to remain sharp and aware at all times, because if they lose their focus even for an instant, they dematerialize (according to Steiner, they actually rise up to the surface of the Earth and instantly turn into toads and amphibians, and for this reason they have a horror of toads).. According to Steiner, when we go to sleep at night, goblins come to us and put a mask over our eyes so we cannot see into the "spiritual realms" – if we could remain awake during this, we would have the unpleasant sensation of being entombed by goblins.
If you look at the decades of the abduction scenario, you could see it as a kind of "staging." First, in the 1940s, there are thousands of accounts of UFOs across the world, and some cryptic stories of crashes. Then, in the 1950s, people see aliens fixing UFOs, and the abductions begin. Through the 1960s until today, the "story" of the abductions has been elaborated into the complex narrative described by Whitley Streiber, Delores Cannon, David Jacobs, Spielberg, and others. There is an extraordinary mass-cultural appetite for this story, this "meme."
Where do memes and stories come from? Do we generate them? Crowley described ideas as extra-dimensional objects that pass through the realm of human consciousness the way a three-dimensional shape passes through "flatland." The entire alien abduction scenario seems to be a carefully orchestrated trap designed to fool humans into giving these beings energy through their belief in them. In some way, perhaps, if the phenomenon gains enough psychic energy it will be able to burst out of the "imaginal" or hypnagogic borderline realm where it seems to reside now into our "literal" reality.
I sometimes think about these entities as something like cosmic liver cells. Gurdjieff described the process of evolution as breaking down a huge amount of dead matter to release new energies. Modern materialists are most susceptible to seeing these entities as helpful aliens rather than negative forces or trickster spirits. Those human beings who choose to remain trapped in a limited materialist conception of reality may be in danger of becoming inert matter to be utilized in this strange, and long-prepared, scheme.

[Halfglass]

Daniel: Something on Thompson's idea about the "bacteria...which lives under the earth and in our waste." From his essay "Bugs in the Brain" (Scientific American, March 2003), professor of biological science and neurology at Stanford, Robert Sapolsky Ph.D. writes about the mystery of certain parasites which know more about the brain than neuroscience does: "...the most dazzling and fiendish thing such parasites have evolved, is their ability to change a host's behavior..." (Rabies is a glaring example but there are even trickier ones.) "Toxoplasma-infected rodents lose their skittishness around cats," (but otherwise live a 'normal' life--feeding and mating) "cats are the only species through whose droppings the parasite can continue to exist..." (By other rodents being infected through the rat's turds.) He gives many other examples but ends with: "...creatures are out there that can control brains. Microscopic and even larger organisms that have more power than Big Brother and , yes, even neuroscientists. We need phylogenetic humility. We are certainly not the most evolved species around, nor the least vulnerable. Nor the cleverest."

[ May 22, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Halfglass]

Oh let me add...before we all get more skittish than those mice before a toxoplasma bite--over goblins and aliens, we should consider that even IF they do exist, it may not take an awakening in the Overmind to raise the defences. I've argued or attempted to argue here before on the idea that emotions might not be as important to the underlying being as we all want to believe (this idea I got from no books, but a series of experiences which pointed almost unchallengably in that direction). We may be the aliens or if not, perhaps inducing paranoia is all they've got, and when we die we might be something they'll wish they hadn't f-cked with (or scaring us is a delicate thing they'er trying to avoid?). And being a shaman or part of a Great Awakening might not be the only way to freedom. Perhaps parts of The Whole will make it back on their/our own, through the shedding of fear and belief systems which might tie us up in the After Realms unnecessarily--after all whats coming is coming isn't it? I mean if we don't have a clear path at death, and so a clear defence, the logical tool for now is a cool head (and the occasional vacation from all these books!--I think I'll go read "The Wind In The Willows" now). Peace. (I know, I know, I can't stop reading all this stuff either.)

[ May 22, 2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by daniel:
If you look at the decades of the abduction scenario, you could see it as a kind of "staging." First, in the 1940s, there are thousands of accounts of UFOs across the world, and some cryptic stories of crashes. Then, in the 1950s, people see aliens fixing UFOs, and the abductions begin.Notice that the UFO/gray phenomenon arose around the same time the organic chemical industry began to boom and synthetic materials began to dominate our lives. Has anyone ever considered whether there's a connection between these things?

I've often wondered about this. As I posted on another thread, I grew up in an industrial area of Pennsylvania that's heavily polluted with various organic chemicals (VOCs, dioxins, PCBs, etc.). Also, my father worked for Imperial Chemical Industries. Both of my parents -- neither of whom were interested in UFOs or other occult phenomenon -- had encounters with UFO-type things at our home.

(I also had a strange encounter as a child -- not with a UFO, but with some kind of unseen intelligence that made its presence known in a bizarre way, utilizing something made out of vinyl, incidentally. Out sick from school, I was home alone with my mom, lying in bed and drawing on one of those pads where you use a stylus to write on gray film over a black vinyl background mounted on cardboard, lifting the film to erase. I don't even know if they make them anymore. Anyway, I dozed off, and when I awoke something had written on my pad -- which was lying right next to me -- in big, blocky letters the word "BOO." I almost had a heart attack. But the whole incident seemed so absurd I couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about it until recently. I finally told my mom, who swears she had nothing to do with it.)

I used to wonder if these "aliens" or whatever they are had come to study those of us living in toxic places. But maybe that's not it. If anaerobic bacteria manifest to us as gnomes, and other microscopic life forms as fairies, what would synthetic organic compounds manifest as?

Aliens, perhaps?

[daniel]

Halfglass,

I disagree with you strongly about emotion being besides the point. I know it is a slog, but perhaps check out Steiner's Outline of Esoteric Science or Cosmic Memory, or something else (lectures on-line). I agree with him that the purpose of human evolution is to transform the "cosmos of wisdom" into the "cosmos of love."

If you want to see what an affectless future would be like, read the accounts of life among the "Greys."

On some sense, we could see ourselves as constructed beings, designed to fulfill certain functions in the cosmic hierarchies. But that is not a bad thing.

[Halfglass]

Daniel: I'm not altogether resigned to the emotion not "real" or important outlook. It may be that a disconnection from emotion might be an option, or even a tool (in the face of an alien?!)--that is, if need be we might turn them off like Spock when it is in our favor. (As you may have guessed this notion came from my experiments with dissociates.)--In the higher end dose experience, one finds one's self interestingly unable to generate fear--mostly!--(sometimes it seeps back in, and at those heights--well you need to hold on brother--which makes them (dissociates) tricky buisness--and why I've seen enough for one lifetime with them). But the fact that the thinking, rational part is completely intact but fearless through most of the trip (which enables one to go incredibly far into The Hive) is something I believe needs consideration. Something I'd talked about before, the swirling series of realities (in which my life was shown to be but a "story"), always ended with a tantalizing nugget of HOPE. This was (all three times it happened) the most important thing that I've ever experienced--and Hope is certainly an emotion. (This nugget--I hate that word!--was given each time by a male and a female, very human feeling, through "silent words and pictures"--best I can do in discribing their communication method.) But there was also the Regulator of Emotion thing, which I encountered--spewing out emotions in a frightening attempt at expression because it had lost its counter identity, with which it needs a mutual agreement in order to tap the proper emotion for the circumstances in the eveyday life of the self--This Regulator was "me" before, but had broken lose and become simply "mine"--I watched with indifference as what should have been a freak-out ride to the mental ward, went on perfectly clear in front of me--as I took notes! P.S. Thanks for the tips --I'll look into some of that writting you mentioned. And thanks for being so cool and having this web site. P.P.S. "Slog" I had to look it up, lol. Yeah I got one of those on another site talkin' about this. As you can see I give much weight to personal experiences over old philosophies--do you think its possible that someone with a gram of DXM has it miles over someone like Descartes?

[ May 23, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[steve]

I wonder if its not so much emotion-versus-no-emotion, as something more like attachment-versus-non-attachment. halfglass’s great description of watching ‘me’ become ‘mine’ brought this to mind. I’ve also had the feeling of ‘watching’ the emotions go haywire while I am high but they are a layer or so down below, where somehow the mere observation and recording of it showed me 'my' essential separateness and their essential unreality. I know that if I let my ‘personal’ emotions, neuroses, anxieties, take over when I’m tripping then I’m lost. the energy flows into them and not into something more ‘edifying’. if this is true, then its not so much a matter of being like Spock, who is emotionless (I suppose) and thus simply lacks an organ of perception, and more a matter of stepping back into what Gurdjieff calls non-identification, maybe something more akin to Buddhistic enlightenment, with the warm compassionate calm and steadiness to hold the focus while traversing turbulent regions. emotion is actually there, and arguably a strong one, but it doesn’t look like what we ordinarily call emotion. I think ‘real love’, ‘real hope’, etc. are maybe like this, not needy or overly personal, but somehow more enveloping, detached, universal.

as for descartes, I always felt some real aversion for aspects of his philosophy, but his notion that the mind is easier to know than the body (because all is seen through it) struck me on my last ‘excursion’ as quite profound. maybe because I’ve been reading William Thompson on Francisco Varela as well as Varela himself. If I understand them aright (and I might not) they emphasize how cut off we are from the world, epistemologically speaking; how our experience is basically all inside. that is, the world outside does no more than ‘trigger’ internal structures which have no one-to-one correspondence with the world outside, and that our entire experience is of these internal structures. this really came across strong when I realized that much of what I’ve been ‘perceiving’ about the makeup of the world(s) seemed uncannily close to the makeup of the brain as he described it. Quite honestly, I don’t know what to make of all this.

personally, I feel like we are touching on some Really Big Shit, and that on some level real dangers are there. at least I don’t feel like it’s a matter to take either lightly or naively. on the other hand, when deep down, I have more often felt, to use Proteus’ perfect phrase from another place, ‘our laughable irrelevance’ in the totality of things. somehow this type of perception is reassuring. much like omar khayyam’s “and if the wine you drink, the lip you press/ end in the nothing all things end in, yes, / think then you are today what yesterday / you were – tomorrow you shall not be less”

[Halfglass]

Steve: You're not the only one talking about it that way. In "Looking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and The Feeling Brain" by Antonio Damasio he writes, "I am convinced that mental processes are grounded in the brain's mapping of the body, collections of neural patterns that portray responses to events that cause emotions and feelings." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------'That role, in the neurologist's view, is gradually being supported by studies suggesting that certain brain areas are responsible for a constant monitoring of the body's overall state, registering the impact of events both external (an absence of food, the death of a loved one, a potential mugger) and internal (an infection, the memory of a pleasant afternoon, embarrassment over a misstep). What emerges from this global temperature reading are feelings, mental activity that stands apart from the raw data on which the reading itself is based.' (That second part from Erica Goode's review in Scientific American.) This idea might lend itself to what you're saying Steve, about "real love" etc. being more "enveloping, detached, universal". It would make sense then that these "false?" emotions built for survival on earth, in time-space, might not be what we take with us at death.(?) (The fact that we exist after physical death is incontestable to me (from obe's and other first hand happenings) so it's easy for me to bring the conversation 'round to that as if everyone knew it as a Known--that and I assume everyone here figures as much.)

[ May 23, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Buzz]

I feel that Steve's view on attachment versus non-attachment is more to the point here. We all have emotions, what seperates the shamen/healer from the sheep is not acting on them, or at least pausing to reflect on the nature of ones actions prior to engaging them. In one of James Redfield's books he observed hell as a place where people were caught in a loop, experiencing a highly charged emotional event from their life over and over. And it may be that that final bow is why remaining somewhat detached is important.