worlds separating [Archive] - Breaking Open The Head

sire_012

08-17-2004, 07:05 AM

so let's assume this happens... one day everybody becomes aware of your belief system and life becomes the ideal half glass world. not that i'm opposed to your image of paradise, it sounds great, but it is your image.

but let's assume for a moment that it does happen.

then what? we've solved all the world's woes, everyone understands that everyone else is a gorgeous ecosystem conjoined to every other gorgeous organism emanating simultaneously from the one mind, bikes proliferate, bush turns to wearing fishnets and doing old stand up routines making fun of his armoured self, we all eat great, and music is free. perhaps i'm bogged down into this present reality too deeply, perhaps my inclinations are too intimate with the binary concepts of material reality, but if this does happen (and if it does i'll be more than happy to give you a giant hug while i eat my words) it seems one of two things will happen.

1) we dissapear, we lose consciousness, awareness, we lose beingness as the tension created from two opposing bodies is now limp and indra's net falls without a shudder into the abyss.

or, more likely,

2) somebody will come along and fuck it up and get this giant wheel spinning again.

perhaps we're coming upon the most wonderful 2 minutes this world has ever experienced. if so, i can't freaking wait.

but what has been nipping at me as of late is that, perhaps, we're already there. not even perhaps, we are already there, if you allow yourself to be that person walking out of their house with wide eyes of a child recognizing the imminence of everything. its a recognition in the beauty of the republican party for playing their part so well, it's an appreciation of the tumor taking you over, its the mind numbing joy when you look at a plant or a flower or a cat and see for a moment the concsiousness, however different, thriving. it's the moment when you stop waiting and realize it's all going on, not despite of the battles, but because of them. the crests and waves of a gorgeous storm that when that moment is right and you are ready will pick you up and carry you on its thunder.

much love to you all!

Lowlight

08-18-2004, 01:59 AM

man at last someone is pointing to the same thing as me. thats exactly it, January the 1st 2012 we all wake up and oh jesus we are all transformed! Its fantastic, no more war, no more hunger, no more innocents dying, no more struggle, we walk around in times of grace beneath the green canopy of the Goddess, we think and we see, we love, we care, we see the errors of our ways, and i fall down. I fall down in tears because for so long we have been lost, and the 'I' that has become 'us' is redeemed, i understand and i feel only the 'now' as finally i and us are released into the imagination. The self is revealed as the now and I shine. we all shine...

...And then i see, there are no more goals, no more aims for I have attained them. I have nothing left to do because there is no future, no past. I have been stripped of my purposes,my hopes and my desires. life has become...pretty...but dull. my soul is empty, i am left with the bordom that only god understands. no more growth through suffering, no more victory, not even a loss. suddenly the shining happy people are not so shining, nor happy. we have been robbed of our humanity robbed of our life robbed of what made us everthing we are. and i hate it. i hate it so much that i choose death, for to rest in annihilation is better than this goddammed boredom.

we have a number of choices. either humanity will die, we literally will no longer be human, and here on this forum i should hope no one will approach this event with anything but the language of silence, for of this we cannot speak. It is beyond what we can hope to know. or we may in some sense improve ourselves at great cost and sacrifice, through great struggle. and then we will face new struggle and new problems on the new level that we have ascended to.

we should not make the eschatological mistakes of the past and preach the happy future for the believers because if we know anything, we know it will not be that.

[ August 18, 2004, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: LowlightOracle ]

daniel

08-18-2004, 05:11 AM

We are deep in the realm of revelation here! What fun!

The first thing I would point out is that my thesis is that there is no passive waiting for things to take place - as individuals we actually earn our salvation through our creative engagement and super-effort in making the transition to a utopian harmonic situation happen in the proper way. Anyone who is waiting passively to be struck by transcendent lightning on 1/1/13 is making a huge mistake - utopia is a dynamic process requiring tremendous will and effort - at the same time, it begins from the Taoist position of acting without action, of maintaining stillness and calm and fearlessness no matter how strange things might become.

Now as for what happens after the transition, these are some of my thoughts:

1. Science becomes the exploration of paradox.

Instead of seeking to resolve paradox through dualistic thought seeking reduction in a "Final Theory," we accept and understand that reality is an artform - that thinking is an act of reconciling ideas and things, and this reconciliation process has no possibility of closure, hence knowledge as well as thought are infinite projects.

As Steiner describes, we develop alternate forms of cognition that are not irrational but arational: Intuition, imagination, and inspiration. Imagination is as McKenna says a lens which brings us deeper into farther reaches of the galactic fractal - hence we can enter into communion with other phase-states and levels of being without leaving this earth.

Art becomes the creative activity of transformation.

Burning Man points towards this: Instead of spectacle, art is the activity of transformation, of creating artificial environment and entering edge-states that stretch the boundaries of what is permissable and possible and make new modes of communication possible. The goal is to explore freedom - and to go deeper into the paradoxical nature of dualities, good vs evil, male vs female, death vs life, time vs no-time, etc.

The complete movement from matter into light perhaps takes around 1,000 years, as Revelation suggests. Or perhaps sire is right, and it all happens within this timescale. But I feel confident we continue to live in linear time even as we enter into these other modalities of temporality with more flexibility and awareness.

gone

08-18-2004, 12:44 PM

Sometimes I see it like the following cinematic moment, except I change the word ‘mad‘ to ‘glad’ ["I'm glad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more."]

Howard Beale (Peter Finch) "Network" – 1976

"I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's work, banks are going bust, and shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone. Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get glad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get glad. (Shouting) You've got to say, 'I'm a human being, god-dammit! My life has value! So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'm as glad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as glad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get glad! You've got to say, 'I'm as glad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: 'I'm as glad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!'"

…Everyone leans out of their windows and shouts…

MORF

08-18-2004, 12:55 PM

Reminds me of The Matrix when Agt. Smith has given Morpheus the serum to reveal the codes for Zion...

As he says, at first the Matrix was designed so that everybody would be happy - the perfect world. And what happened? Humanity simply wouldn't accept the system as we define ourselves through suffering (=learning?)...

Katie

08-18-2004, 04:17 PM

Adding my opinion here, as an Earth gridworker- for your discernment...

2012. This year is a peak in the energy- it is a "transition of phase" point from one zone to another energetically, from one-dimensional consciousness to the next. The energies coming into Earth started building a long time ago, as far 2,000 years ago with the seeding of the Christ energy. However the energies have been increasing exponentially in the past century and will continue accelerating until they peak in 2012. After which the energy influx will start gradually diminishing, probably at the same rate. In my Earth visions, that I have had now for years, the period leading to 2012 is called the "destruction" and the period after 2012 "the reconstruction". I have always known that my primary "spiritual mission" is to happen during the reconstruction. The reconstruction is going to last some time, maybe several hundred years. During this time all structures will be reformed. Up to 2012 we get busy destroying them all, as none of them work. Education, politics, finances...it all comes down, sometimes gradually reformed, sometimes abruptly shaken, all to be rebuilt anew. The consciousness of the world is changing and with that, so are its forms.

The feelings some describe here about feeling lost or empty in an ideal world in which there is no struggle nor duality is a very common feeling for people evolving on the spiritual path - 2012 or not. One of the biggest obstacles to spiritual growth is addiction to drama- for lack of a better word. One could also call it excitement/tension derived from conflict. There is a feeling that, taken away the struggle, life becomes boring. Or that taken away the action, life becomes a drag. It is not so. I know this one very well. There was a time in which Spirit was asking that I leave behind a certain lifestyle, certain friends, that were a lot of fun but who were not aiming for higher things. I wrestled for a long time and eventually opted for the wholesome route. My main fear was that the wholesome route might be a dull life. I hesitated for ages as I believed that giving up the excitement of life in the fast lane, was signing up for a dull life. The truth is that new levels opened up in which the dull life became so much more fulfilling than my old life and full of deeper excitement than my lifestyle of before.

This is just a small example from my life. The fear of peace, the fear of "no drama", the fear of "no struggle" is such a common thing that my spiritual teachers dedicated many hours to explaining how to recognize it. They warned that even if one is experiencing great states in meditation and achieving great inner peace, there is a very strong pull to recreating chaos. This is because the personality self fears its own death, as it merges with the Soul. But if one manages to allow for this death of the personality, what happens is that the personality self (call it ego if you like, although I dislike the term ego- so loaded) raises in vibration and shifts, refines and adapts to this new level of consciousness. And learns to navigate it and finds a new job to do - a more evolved function- in the higher consciousness stream.

When I work with people that are experiencing what I call "sabotage" crisis- i.e. they are breaking into a new level of consciousness and blocks emerge at the personality level that attempt to pull them back down to the previous level- a level at which they felt comfortable- I usually work with their sub-personalities. Usually a part of the psyche feels threatened with extinction. It either feels it will have no place in the new consciousness level, nothing to do, be obsolete, die - or it remembers painful experiences from past lives at that level (if the person had attained that level of consciousness before). Anyway- as we shift collectively into a higher level of consciousness, I suspect many people will begin to experience these very traditional "ego deaths" as they move into the higher levels of being. Basically, the way in which one defines oneself needs to change, the way in which the world is seen and one's sense of "role" within it need to change. This can be a very uncomfortable process. It can help to be aware of what is going on

Now, with regards to human beings being defined by struggle and the overcoming of obstacles/crisis, I disagree. Duality, struggle are one way of learning and growing. The other way is service. There are highly evolved beings in dimensions higher than ours that evolve and grow through service. Service and the refinement of service become the modus operandi of evolved beings. The purpose of the incarnation becomes totally centered around setting the stage and creating the space for the evolution of others. Service motivates the being. The being has already learned from struggle and now gives back. When a world becomes so progresses that nobody needs any help, service is extended to beings in lower dimensions. This is what the beings that we call guides and angels do. All higher dimensional beings evolve through higher and higher forms of service.

Another motivating force outside of duality is creativity. Creativity is the another motivation as one evolves. Creating, creating, creating. Creating beautiful and fabulous things- creating with words, with light, with sound. Creating in so many ways. Creation is what defines the divine and the divine in humanity and the humanity in the divine. 2012 is very much about each one of us and the collective body of humanity reconnecting with the divine essence within. The divine essence is creative life force and inspiration! As human beings we have only just scratched the surface of what we can do.

I am just thinking of the top of my head at a few things that could go on in a world that is dedicated to creativity, harmony and love rather than competition, struggle, crisis and destruction. Creating technologies in harmony with nature, creating new ways of travelling that tap into psychic energy, creating beautiful works of art, travelling in space, travelling through time, enhancing the power of the mind, training the inner senses- there is so much to explore and all of it feels so exciting to me.

The new earth is approaching. The crop circle speaks to me of the docking of the higher dimensional Earth that we have created with our thoughts and visualization with the Earth of the here and now. We are starting to merge. I have been seeing the new earth for years now. It is brilliant and blue, radiant and exciting. So much to do, just a different focus. The New Earth is about enhancement - it is about the blossoming of the human spirit into its true radiance. We are so much more than we allow ourselves to be, swamped by survival issues, conflicts and fears. I think it is in Buddhism that they say that one needs to first have food and shelter taken care of in order to get to the next level. What is meant by this is that fear of survival distracts from higher consciousness, as all fear does. When we break out of polarity, having mastered the lessons of polarity to an acceptable degree- much psychic energy will be available for higher pursuits. Personally, I think it will be a blast - a true renaissance. It is already starting, it started in the sixties, but once we move out of the times of the destruction into the times of the reconstruction, the creative wave will move into full force...This is what I see :) For now….as reality shifts with every breath into the collective creation that unfolds…Namaste

For the readers out there. Eric Fromm wrote about the two driving instincts towards death and life (Anatomy of human destructiveness, Escape from freedom, etc). We are moving towards more life. More life than we ever dreamt was possible. A level of life that almost feels threatening. Lets challenge ourselves to carry even more life force, to embrace even more light....The ego will be threatened but our Spirit will soar...lets fly, exhilarated, like eagles :)

Gift Horse

08-18-2004, 06:13 PM

Excellent post, Katie,

I couldn't have said it better so I won't even try.

But, yes, the possiblities will be Endless.
What about the the movie/book; What Dreams May Come?
I thought they dealt with the question, "Won't we be bored?" very well.

to love and light!

Lowlight

08-19-2004, 12:59 AM

Service and creation (which is also destruction, there is no difference), are also goals and aims that remain as potential until they themselves are struggled for and brought forth from the potential to the actual. So with what you are saying katie i have no strict problem. What i hate is this goddammed happy clappy, walk into the sunset, hollywood ending, bullshit life that so many seem to expound as our future. Like i said if we are to change it will to ways that we cannot understand (as of yet) so there is no real reason to try and stretch our tiny minds over what will come. Daniel, i agree that this can only come through being earned, through 'super effort' as you said. effort is struggle.

michael heany

08-19-2004, 04:09 AM

"When consciousness frees itslef from its identification with physical and mental forms, it becomes what we might call pure of enlightened consciousness, or presence, This has already happened in a few indivduals, and it seems destined to happen soon on a much larger scale, although there is no gaurantee that it will happen. Most humans are still in the grip of the egoic mode of consciousness: identified with their mind and run by their mind. If they don't free their selves from their mind in time, they will be destroyed by it. They will experience increasing confusion, conflict, violence, illness, despair, madness. Egoic mind has become like a sinking ship. If you don't get off, you will go down with it. The collective egoic mind is the most dangerously insane and destructive entity ever to inhabit the planet. What do you think will happen on this planet if human consciousness remains unchanged?"

Eckhart Tolle
"The Power of Now"

Phlash

08-19-2004, 04:25 AM

Lowlight,

There is a good reason to try to "stretch our tiny minds over what will come", and that is to practice for what the death of our current way of being will be like. In so doing we can visualize a more enlightented world and help move ourselves in the direction of that light. This is analogous to the practice of yoga or use of psychedlics in teaching us about the personal death state, but on a societal scale. Its a part of the practice of world transformation.

Lowlight

08-19-2004, 04:33 AM

Im not saying we shouldnt prepare ourselves, of course we should, but if we are going to radically change in an ontological sense then i dont see the point in trying to see what it will be like from this present basis as the only thing it is likely to be is something that we cant imagine because it is not within our powers to do so. we should work toward the goal but not with a fixed idea of what it will be like.

daniel

08-19-2004, 09:53 AM

lowlight,

i disagree with your perspective. i think understanding the transition is very important - without an imprint you just fall of of the edge.

I think we can see that the positive and subtler aspects of our evolution - such as sensory abilities and aesthetic and mental discrimination - must be leading us somewhere. To say we are moving into a new world in my mind means we take the best of the old world with us - the imagination has to be stretched, but there is no reason it should break at the prospect.

michael heany

08-19-2004, 12:41 PM

"Do you know of someone whose main function in life seems to be to make themselves and others miserable, to spread unhappiness? Forgive them, for they too are part of the awakening of humanity. The role they play represents an intenification of the nightmare of egoic consciousness, the state of non-surrender. There is nothing personal in this. It is not who they are."

Eckhart Tolle, "Stillness Speaks"

jezebelle

08-19-2004, 01:22 PM

To jump back to plash and halfglass, my vision or dream for this great pivital momemt happened when I was young. I'm outside on the street and a loud humming sound takesover everywhere. People are a little freaked, but all at once I know what to do. I start humming and the next person realizes that this is what they should do too. It spreads instantly and we are one.
Now if you are into ufo stuff some believe we will be transported by (aliens) to an alternate earth reality and live a life where technology enhances nature and we are the caretakers. Some stay and experience this earthly change. In away your soul knows what it wants to do. The harvest complete.

Halfglass

08-20-2004, 12:19 AM

Jez darling; I like that! This is the sort of thing it (if it goes down at all) it will have to be. The humming would of course be coming from this same EarthMind, McKenna's Over Mind etc. (or as I believe The Hive Mind of The Dead). (P.S. the bongo section and the guy from "Spyro Gyro" said they can make it next Sat. See if that's good for you.)

Michael; yes, the people still fixed on their assemblege points due to animal greed and their own self-reflection--remember--(as I have seen repeatedly in visions) the sort of Hinduish idea that we are all The It in the Origin, Over Mind, Hive Mind...whaterver you want to call It? The unenligtened "who are first, shall be last" but perhaps they'll come around when they see they're missing all the fun!

[ August 20, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

Lowlight

08-20-2004, 12:23 AM

The thing is Daniel that i am big on mystery. We as a collective know virtually nothing about the absolute nature of reality, if anything at at all. Now, if we dont know what we are, who we are, why we are here now. what life is, what death is, then how can we talk of what things will be once and if we actually make a leap to a higher form of being? Im not saying we should aim for that goal, im not saying we should have principles to guide us to such a goal, like mind manifesting substances, but i am saying that if anything the mystery will probably only deepen once we get there, if we get there. I think some of the misunderstanding rises from the issue of no one really stating explicitly what they think this change will involve. There is talk of ego loss, we are all one, timelessness etc but what do people out there think it will be like in a none abstract sense? let me know! will there be crime? will there be homelessness? what happens to human suffering? what change will politics go through? will there be war? will there be taxes? will there be garbage on T.V, will there be food shortages? famines? will people have jobs? will there be money? And if anyone has an answer to these types of question, can you tell me this...how do you know? How do you know what these things will be like? Im not trying to be clever or piss people off here ,i genuinely want to know peoples opinions on these things, as abstracts seems to be what most people use when they talk of the change. I guess the good thing is this. 2012 isnt actually that far away, so soon we will know either way. Im not being skeptic here by the way. I actually thing things are already changing but i have always viewed it as things will have to get a lot worse before they get better.

The Light

08-20-2004, 03:59 AM

Lowlightoracle,

I think you are using your mind too much. Now that I'm coming into Myself, I don't think as much; or rather, my Consciousness is guiding my thinking, and not the other way around. I look back on my past (and the not too distant past) and I realize that when I suffered, it was because I listened to that voice in my head. I would try to think my way out of my unhappiness (or the world's, for that matter) Why am I unhappy? Why is the world going south? Because, because.... And I would always come around to the same answers, and the same answers didn't free me. Nor the world.

Eckhart Tolle makes an analogy that trying to use the mind to reach enlightenment (or happiness in whatever form) is like the Chief of Police trying to find out who the Arsonist is when in actuality the Arsonist IS the Chief of Police!

Jezebelle,

your story reminded me of something from my youth, primary school, sitting in the cafetria one day. Somehow this energy got passed around the room and all the kids started beating on the tables, a weird beserk freedom somehow possessed all of us. I don't know how it started, or how long it lasted, but I do remember the teachers were rendered speechless. They had to just sit back and watch it happen. How could they stop it?

daniel

08-20-2004, 04:13 AM

lowlight: "i am big on mystery."

I am also big on mystery, but I also think that we have been given our intellect in order to penetrate into mystery to the extent to which we are capable, making the darkness conscious, in Jung's terms.

lowlight: "We as a collective know virtually nothing about the absolute nature of reality, if anything at at all. Now, if we dont know what we are, who we are, why we are here now what life is, what death is,"

Once again, I disagree with your perspective. You first have to understand what knowledge is, and what thinking is. It is true we will never - and can never - attain an absolute final knowledge of anything, and that is because the universe in itself is a dynamic system in the process of evolution, and everything evolves, including the underlying laws of the universe itself - of course i don't even know this, but i offer it as a hypothesis or a basis for my thought. I also support the Buddha's hypothesis that "What you think is what you are." The basis of reality is psychic rather than physical, and the psychic nature of reality is becoming increasingly self-evident as we go deeper into this transition - the psyche is becoming real, in Jung's phrase.

Steiner notes that thinking can never be an attempt to impose some final knowledge or ultimate certainty - instead thinking is the art of reconciling percepts and concepts. It is therefore an infinite play, something light and joyful not heavy and deterministic. The best reconciliation - the one that responds to all of our percepts, including the percepts we access in non-ordinary states, and creates the most beautiful and interesting world - should naturally become the one that we support with our activities, if we are rational and intelligent.

If the world is essentially psychic, we don't want to reify our negative projections - including the projections of "we don't know anything and can't know anything."

Although we can never attain an absolute and final knowledge, we can certainly attain relative and provisional knowledge -- and in that sense there is no limit to our knowledge.

lowlight "then how can we talk of what things will be once and if we actually make a leap to a higher form of being? Im not saying we should aim for that goal, im not saying we should have principles to guide us to such a goal, like mind manifesting substances, but i am saying that if anything the mystery will probably only deepen once we get there, if we get there."

We simply cannot get there without an imprint because the process of getting there is in itself one of intensifying consciousness and accepting the reality of the psyche in increasing phase, to the point that we take responsibility for our own projections and then project only what is salutory and beautiful. This means owning the shadow - recognizing it for what it is - and reconciling the dark and light aspects of the god-image within one's own inner nature.

lowlight: "I think some of the misunderstanding rises from the issue of no one really stating explicitly what they think this change will involve. There is talk of ego loss, we are all one, timelessness etc but what do people out there think it will be like in a none abstract sense? let me know! will there be crime? will there be homelessness? what happens to human suffering? what change will politics go through? will there be war? will there be taxes? will there be garbage on T.V, will there be food shortages? famines? will people have jobs? will there be money?"

I would say there would be relative conditions for a period of time and then movement into deeper and deeper phase-states of harmony and creative unleashing. I do not know if the entire sequence unfolds by 2012 or if it unfolds over the next epoch. I suspect the latter.

Ultimately - and I fully expect to see this occur during my present lifetime - there will be no crime, there will be no jobs, there will be no money, there will be no homelessness, there will be no taxes, there will be no nationstates, there will be no garbage and no TV.

The entire construct that is currently holding back human development is going to collapse. During the relative period of its collapse, there will perhaps be lawlessness and chaos and cataclysm - I don't find it worthwhile to anticipate this.

My lived experience has provided repeated and fully convincing evidence of all that I say. I see the directedness of the process, and I see its endpoint, and I know we will attain this goal. The first necessity is that a certain threshold of humanity understand the reality of the psyche and then take complete and total responsibility for their own manifestations.

As I have said repeatedly on this site, technology is a self-organizing system that is bootstrapping us from one world-reality into a new "incarnation." We can see that this is accelerating in intensified phases of lesser and lesser amounts of time. The logical, final result of this process is complete psychic control of the material manifestation of the planetary environment - but clearly, this is only possible from a much higher state of consciousness then we yet possess, hence our conscious evolution is now being forced. We are in a pressure cooker. "Anxiety is the great birth-giver" forcing the inception of the integral structure of consciousness, as understood by Jean Gebser in The Ever-Present Origin.

lowlight: "And if anyone has an answer to these types of question, can you tell me this...how do you know? How do you know what these things will be like?"

once again, knowledge can only be relative and provisional. However, I see in my own life that the psyche is literally becoming real - I understand the intersection of Eastern, Western, and shamanic thought that creates a new form of consciousness able to directly interact with elemental and celestial forces as well as comprehending the nature of all material processes. I understand that mythic thought and magical cognition are just as "real" (though all is ultimately maya) as modern rational thought, and that all signs point to this transition necessarily taking place by 2012. Therefore, to the best of my ability, I accept that this hypothesis is the correct one.

On another level, I deeply feel that all of this has already happened - as the Hopi say, all time is present now. We are living out a movie, but we still must learn to intensify our will and consciousness to accord with the Tao and to manifest the changes that must be instituted to create harmony.

lowlight: "Im not trying to be clever or piss people off here ,i genuinely want to know peoples opinions on these things, as abstracts seems to be what most people use when they talk of the change. I guess the good thing is this. 2012 isnt actually that far away, so soon we will know either way."

In a sense - but the strange characteristic of the psyche becoming real is that each person will experience this in a different way depending on the level of their own psyche - those who are wrapped up in negative projections and fear will experience the trauma of ego - annihilation. As Gebser says, we should use the time we have to left to acquire time-freedom - or from the Jungian perspective, work on our ego structures to handle the higher voltage of the descent of the psyche, the inception of the higher mind.

lowlight: " Im not being skeptic here by the way. I actually thing things are already changing but i have always viewed it as things will have to get a lot worse before they get better."

things are getting much much better and much much worse simultaneously - which makes sense starting from the Jungian perspective that the god-image is an antinomy realized through the dynamic process of integration of opposites. The Apocalypse is a perfect Tantric text.

Katie

08-20-2004, 06:06 AM

Expanding on my previous post in response to LowLightOracle’s comments

The ideas for the future I delineated were suggestions of possibilities – not a fixed idea- to show that a life with no struggle still can contain movement and growth. They were meant to be a suggestion of possible alternatives to your view that with no struggle there is nothing worth living for. I quote you

And then I see, there are no more goals, no more aims for I have attained them. I have nothing left to do because there is no future, no past. I have been stripped of my purposes,my hopes and my desires. life has become...pretty...but dull. my soul is empty, i am left with the bordom that only god understands. no more growth through suffering, no more victory, not even a loss. suddenly the shining happy people are not so shining, nor happy. we have been robbed of our humanity robbed of our life robbed of what made us everthing we are. and i hate it. i hate it so much that i choose death, for to rest in annihilation is better than this goddammed boredom. Incidentally, the above sounds like a vision of the future to me.It is almost impossible not to have visions, hence the importance of being mindful of what we empower with our thoughts and of actively empowering visions of the outcomes we wish to see happen.

In my post above I suggested that struggle can be substituted by striving for expansion, exploration of knowledge, explorations in consciousness, service and creativity. The details of what exactly the world will look like is of course impossible to know from here. Things have to be described in general abstract forms – in doing creative visioning and manifesting work, working with abstract concepts and open ended energetic settings allows for the highest creative potential. So, in a way, you are right, nobody knows what is to come, a part from the tone of the energy. But I think we will be engaging in different pursuits, after a long period of reconstruction and reform. I wonder if we will see this new world in our lifetimes.

Also a few words on your comments on destruction/creation. When I speak of "the destruction" leading up to 2012, I mean a time in which old structures crumble. But when I talk of the end of destructivity referring to polarity I am talking about a different kind of destructive force that we could associate for example to what is often termed the demonic. As much as I agree with you that creation does contain destruction, I also do not think that all destruction is creative. There are forms of destruction that are unevolved expressions of unconsciousness and could do with being upgraded or discarded. In my view creative destruction is that involved in the changing from one form to another, non-creative destruction is that motivated by opposition to growth, self-service and unwillingness to change. It is the intent behind the destructive force that creates the distinction in my view.

But as I say this, I also acknowledge that there are more inclusive perspectives from which all forms of destruction have a function in the larger scheme of things- and here we go into a whole discussion about the nature of polarity from a multidimensional perspective - so much to say but do not have time to write much ... Were the Nazis a creative force? We can find a creative aspect to the Nazis, as a catalyst for opposition from which other things were born. Resolution through conflict is the primary style of learning in a world ruled by duality: It seems that we are leaving this mode of learning behind. The reason we are leaving it behind, is not because duality per se is a bad thing, but because we are evolving to another playing field with different rules, to another level of experience. People that still think there is value to learning from duality, I am sure will be free to do so if they so choose, but I doubt that they will be doing so here on the earth plane, as it seems that the earth is no longer going to be the playing field for this kind of experience.

In closing a word about effort. The effort we are being called for has more to do with right being than right doing. It has more to do with stretching than with struggling. The times are asking us to upgrade our egos so that our personalities can hold more of our Soul. This is a path of mastery, traditionally the path of the initiate, and it takes work. But mostly it is inner work. One of the things that this entails is that of holding a steady vision and being of steady energy as the outer world seems to go to hell in a handbasket. And holding steady energy whilst parts of ourselves fall apart as our egos are smoothed down as with rough sandpaper by the accelerated energies of change. These are times of unusual acceleration in growth and the shedding of old patterns will be relentless. To some this will feel as if they are dying from the inside out, as their ego structures are busted open under pressure. We are entering a time of mass initiation and some of it might well feel very harsh to our personalities.

So, LightOracle, I think you are right, I think we will be continuing to freefall for quite some time, but I also think that change will be happening very fast. I think that it is after 2012 that gradually things will start to take form again. In this sense , I also agree with you that it is difficult to imagine the forms to come, although I think most of us know the energies of such forms, as we project psychically into the future and get busy creating and supporting the new.

Anyway, must wrap this up, as it is getting rather long…

Katie

08-20-2004, 06:41 AM

Excellent post Daniel

I just read it now after posting mine and I think we are very much on the same wavelength here. I particularly liked this sentence

The first necessity is that a certain threshold of humanity understand the reality of the psyche and then take complete and total responsibility for their own manifestations. This is really in my view the very essence of the shift we are approaching. It is a shift in perception that sees humans as manifestors of reality - a concept that has been trumpeted until the cows come home in New Age circles but not always understood in its "energetic" multidimensional physics aspect. There are metaphysical laws that govern the process of creation - they operate if we are aware of them or not. The understanding and mastering of these laws require that we leap in understanding from a "physical "world view to a multidimensional world view. Once we collectively understand these laws the paradigm cannot but shift. Why would we go on creating ugliness once we understand that we have the power to create beauty? Who would be able to have power over us if we understand that they can only do so if we embrace this as a possibility in our worldview?

I am writing a series of articles and beginning to write a book on this very topic of manifestation principles, because i think it is not only fundamental to our evolution but that the new interdimensional and integrated 'spiritualized" physics is going to be essential in these times of great change.

On that note, i must get back to work...

Lowlight

08-20-2004, 10:54 PM

Daniel and Katie, thanks for the considered replys, im gonna get back to you both on all your points, but i have to go to work till the evening, (nice). If 2012 means no 'work' i will be glad! peace

Lowlight

08-21-2004, 11:32 PM

ok, I actually think that we are not that different after all Daniel. When i say we know nothing i mean it in absolute terms, i believe we can have contingent truths, if we did not we would not be able to function in anyway that we are currently familar with. But i would say that i dont see our state of radical unknowledge in relation to the final mystery of things as negative and certainly would not want to project it as such. In fact i think i view it as the opposite, mystery and the overwhelmingness of the mystery is an amazing thing and to project it makes a a future of infinite possibilties. In this way is not the mystery itself the imprint? I agreee that the reconcilliation of light and dark is a goal to be worked toward, in fact the reconcilliation of all opposites within the self as well as self acceptance should be the goal, the aim, the desire. I remain skeptical of your 'no money in ourlifetimes' hope, i think it will take longer than that, but we may well see something like the beginings of it. But who am i to say...i guess it depends on the speed of the transition/growth.
i would say it is a question of perspective as to whether things are getting better or worse or both at the same time, i agree though that from a higher viewpoint things are becoming both at the same time as you say. from the perspective of a family in Iraq that has just had half its members blown apart i would say things are getting worse. But this brings me to Katie.
Katie i would see 'stretching as a form of struggle or vice versa, i think we need a different waor that will incorporate both. Also i would not say that creation contains destruction i would say that one literally is the other. There is no difference, they are both process, they are both change. each is the wiping away of the former state, it is reality replacing itself again and again with itself. I only see differnce once perspective is brought into it. As for the Nazi's, i would say they were creative, which is hard for me to say as my actual main area of research is the Holocaust and a few generations back i have semetic blood, but again it is a questionof perspective. Hitler was in his own eyes instigating an act of creation, but from another persective it was a destruction, so it was really both, and from a higher view point it was process. Im not sure if we will be able to jetison duality is an absolute sense as the bringing together of them within the self means they are held and accepted as what they are on there own terms by the self. This is something akin to a higher form of morality, a more inclusive morality. im not sure this means the loss completely of the nature of the two in one though, rather an accepting of them.

The Light

08-22-2004, 01:05 AM

It seems to me that the root cause of suffering in the world is Fear.

What if I don't have this or that? I will be annihilated. So possessiveness follows.

It seems Enlightenment is the relinquishing of Fear.

For some people, this happens Once and for All. Examples include individuals who face execution, have a conversion experience and face their death with calm. They find Enlightenment, which is synonomus with "I am not my body/mind. I am Eternal".

For most of the rest of us, it's more work. Confronting fears here and there.

For example, I had been going to a particular bar for a while. I would sit there. Somehow, something was missing. I recognized that I was intimidated by the situation in some way. I wouldn't talk to people much. I felt I was being judged in some way.

One night I found this silly hat in my car that my friend had left. Bright orange hunting hat. I realized I was at a juncture: "Are you going to wear that hat into the bar? You're not, are you?"

I did.

And it was liberating. We all have fears about what people think about us. Utlimately those fears are based on the illusion of the isolated self.

Now I'm able to talk to people more easily. (No, I don't still wear the hat.) More importantly, I'm now listening more than talking.

There are many more fears that I have to face. I understand now that getting to the Next Level means facing down more fears.

I've cut out coffee. I realized that was based on fear that my life would be less without it. An illusion. Alcohol, too.

I don't look for psychedelics anymore. I'll do them only when they're offered to me. (Yes, still clinging) Maybe I'll get to the point where even then I decline them!

One of the yogic prinicples is doing things you don't want to do. Confronting the fear that one can't find peace unless one is striving after one's goals.

Go to a retirement home and talk to some lonely old people. Discover that even there the Self abides.

daniel

08-22-2004, 04:02 AM

I wouldn't really call the Nazis creative in any sense. Would you call Bush and his henchmen creative? I do not think so.

Creativity is what happens in the process of trying to evolve into more consciousness.

Dissolution - deevolution - is what happens when people like Nazis or Bush-istas simply turn the wheel of degeneration, seeking to reduce consciousness to a primitive state of magical identification as a prelude to their inevitable self-destruction.

Gurdjieff noted that evolution is hazardous while deevolution "goes like a pianola."

As for mystery, there will always be mystery - we will solve or understand one level of mystery only to be ushered into another level. therefore we should have no worries about fully engaging our cognitive powers to understand our current situation.

Christ in Luke6:4, "Man, if indeed thou knowest what thou doest, thou art blessed, but if thou knowest not, thou art cursed, and a transgressor of the law."

Katie

08-22-2004, 08:59 AM

I am feeling a bit of reluctance towards getting into a long discussion about all this. The whole "this is the way it is"- "no, this is the way it is" - dialectic discussion is very fatiguing for me. As much as I value the mind - God knows if I have used it in this lifetime - I am also aware of ego traps in discussion. Discussing in order to be right, to push for a point of view at the exclusion of another. My mind loves playing with ideas, but sometime I question the motivation for doing so. Is it my ego playing an intellectual game of right and wrong? Is it for a true wish for mutual expansion or is it just about trying to prove a point. Proving points exhausts me, always has. I find that when I get to this point, I find my words futile, as many of the concepts I would like to express are more feeling/energetic than verbal. Sometimes I would like to be able to show pictures of what I see and feel - it would be easier. However, this said, with the intent of expanding rather opposing anybody here (I am enjoying all your great points of view), I am going to give it another try. Although I know that the issue of light/dark and polarity, creation/destruction, the nature of good and evil and their purpose are such a huge topic (one that I have been thinking about since I was 11 years old) that there is no way that I can do it justice here.

I realized a long time ago that all elevated truths are beyond polarity and are therefore paradoxical in nature. This is because they transcend polarity. From a point of view of universal truth, opposites always true at the same time. And depending on where you are looking from, you will see one or the other aspect. A kind of Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applied to truth. However it is difficult to describe transcendence of polarity in a polarity world with a polarity language. How do we express paradox? All descriptions a limited in describing what is ultimately the wordless territory of the mystic.

In the case of our discussion on the Nazis. Are the Nazis creative? Yes they are. Are they destructive and a force of involution? Yes they are. Both, at the same time, depending on what level one is coming at it from. I am going to approach this from an astrological perspective here.

Astrologically the time of the Nazi was the time of the discovery of Pluto. When a planet is discovered the energy represented by that planet bursts into consciousness. Alternatively one could say that the collective consciousness is such that it is ready to see the energy of that planet, hence the planet is discovered. Pluto represents the path of transformation through the shadow. Pluto is the ruler of volcanoes and boils. It brings stuff that was underneath to the surface. Psychologically it brings into consciousness the unconscious dark side and shoves it right in your face. Pluto transits on a personal level can be very uncomfortable, especially if one has a lot of repressed material. However, Pluto is also the ruler of death and rebirth. From the death of a part of the self through the confrontation with the shadow, a new more evolved self is born.

When Pluto was discovered or entered into consciousness, it was time for a certain aspect of the shadow of humanity to surface. The Plutonian energy was calling for an embodiment and some beings answered that call. It is not by chance that there were the Nazis in Germany, the fascists with Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain and more totalitarian energy in Japan, etc. all happening roughly at the same time in various parts of the world. And that there were also many people in the various countries happy to go along with what was going on. Pluto was effecting the whole planet, not just one nation. These were manifestations of Pluto acting on a collective level. All were feeling Pluto in one way or another either by embodying the shadow or by fighting against it. However the shadow was that of all of humanity, not just of those that embodied it. The evil- for lack of a better word- that we saw belonged to the collective psyche, with some of the collective acting it out and some being the receivers or victims of it. The opportunity presented here was that of transcending it. Seeing the horror and saying- no more. Seeing the horror and aspiring for a more evolved expression as human beings, with more compassion, more love, more wisdom. In this sense, taking the bigger picture approach, the Nazis could be seen as the ones that volunteered, consciously or not, to embody the shadow for all people. One could even go as far as being thankful to them for providing such a good wall to push against. In this sense, the Nazis could be seen as creative, as, although individually destructive and devolving, they served a creative function when looked at from a larger prospective, by serving the collective evolution of their times. There are even deeper levels to this, as we can go into describing the various dimensions, their nature and their purpose, but I am choosing to stop here. A good series of books to read for an interdimensional cosmology that includes light and dark as well as the cyclical nature of dimensional shifts is "The RA Material" channeled in the 80’s by L/L Research.

Using again the model of astrology for this, as it works well in describing these phenomena, interestingly, when 9/11 happened there was the same Plutonian aspects as at the beginning of the Nazi regime. Saturn opposite Pluto, if you want to check this out. Growth is cyclical in nature as can be seen clearly using astrology. Astrologically, we were at a half growth cycle of the energy that produced the Nazis. Time for another embodiment of the shadow, time for another look at the unresolved baggage festering underneath the surface in the collective psyche. So here we have the Bush gang - but also notice similar people in charge in England (Blair), Italy (Berlusconi) , etc. Pluto is calling for embodiment and the collective responded providing dark players. This way we get to see the shadow very clearly. The danger is thinking it is theirs and not ours. In Jungian analysis this is called shadow boxing. We project our shadow out there onto someone else and then we fight them. Somewhat it is inevitable that we do so. But the problem only solves when the shadow is integrated. Fighting it is the first stage, but integration must follow.

Bush and gang are where they are doing what they are doing because, on some level, in the unconscious of humanity, we have created them. They represent an amplification of an energy of greed, ruthless individualism, disrespect for nature, pursuit of self interest, judgement of what is different and blind black and white thinking. Extreme self-protection and fear of death within a materialistic world view. Resistance to the end of a certain kind of lifestyle. Are these energies really totally outside of ourselves or are they within us? Doesn't all our society, to some extent, have these ideas somewhere within it? Each one of us carries some of these energies, in a microcosm kind of way. Look at how many people sacrifice their true vocation to financial security, stay in bad marriages for fear of change, shun their sons and daughters if they happen to be too different, will compromise their ideals for a promotion, will buy prepackaged food and don't recycle, use toxic chemicals to clean their bathrooms, dump their shit into the oceans, drive SUVs when they could get the bus for the sake of convenience. Here in California there is not even proper public transport - nobody wants it- and millions drive on their freeways each day, one person in each SUV, with their "promote peace and love" stickers on their rear. Bush is the shadow of all this, embodying the contradictions. Through the Bush gang the shadow is being externalized in all its ugliness for all to see. And we have the opportunity to say "actually this sucks, lets create a world that is a bit more evolved than this". To create something new. But the integration will happen when we all recognize the energy of Bush within us and do something about it by truly walking our talk. By finding the festering anger and judgements within, the laziness that makes us cut corners because it is convenient. Laziness that allows us to continue to buy product without thinking of where they came from, without questioning, without asking about for example who suffered so that we could have a cup of coffee at Starbucks, who suffered so we could eat our burger, how many trees were cut so we could have white paper for our printers and continue to buy our overly filled Sunday papers... Are we willing to let go of the little things through which we are contributing to what is going on at larger levels. And on an inner level, are we willing to take a deep look in our psyche and clean it up.

So, again, the individual energies of people like the Bush gang are definitely focused on involution, but unwittingly are at the service of evolution, as they trigger the collective as catalysts for change. When the collective really wants change and has "grown up" so to speak , energetically, this outer world dark shadow will dissolve in a second. The more the collective resists evolution, the darker the shadow will get- and the darker the deeds of the men that embody it. It is a natural balancing dynamic when we look at humanity as a whole. There is no separation between us and them. That is why we – all of us – need to work on ourselves and become more conscious of our blind spots. The nature of Pluto, the great purifier, when not taken seriously, is deadly. In psychological astrology, Pluto is seen as a force that does not care for the survival of the ego and the personality. It would rather kill the form than for it not to transform, in this case the form being our society. And it might use the embodied dark lords to accomplish its task. Luckily, I think most of us are doing our homework this time around and I trust that integration will occur.

jezebelle

08-22-2004, 11:15 AM

Luckily, I think most of us are doing our homework this time around and I trust that integration will occur.

I believe this to be true in my very soul, we will make it.
There is a method to this madness.
Individually we all have to face our polarity, or our shadow; look at the alien.
The call is everywhere. Individually we will deal.
Resistance brings more polarity. But this is the gift.
A chance to look at it ONCE AGAIN until we realize that all of this . . . IS US.
I have great faith because we have come SO FAR.

Here is a tid-bit off proof (simplistic but profound) at least for me. Here I am listening to am radio on the computer because I don't have the reception to listen directly to Daniel P. talk of alternate experiences (for lack of a better word.) The last time I listened to am radio was when I was 16. A long time ago. Believe me no such conversation could have occurred. This is incredibule.
Information is exploding, join a group (aquarius) any group and add your special touch.

Katie

08-22-2004, 12:29 PM

You are absolutely right. I have had the same thought about coast to coast am that apparently now, with streamlink, some days has an audience of 15 million per show. That is such a huge audience for this kind of show...The collective is changing from the ground up and it won't be too long before things shift at a mainstream level :)

sidecross

08-22-2004, 01:26 PM

Models and model building are an appreciated item, but in the end, after stirring the fire, the models are themselves to be thrown in and consumed by something greater than its parts.

Charlie

08-23-2004, 02:56 AM

Ultimately - and I fully expect to see this occur during my present lifetime - there will be no crime, there will be no jobs, there will be no money, there will be no homelessness, there will be no taxes, there will be no nationstates, there will be no garbage and no TV.
Can I have fries with that? (…err, sorry, couldn’t resist)

I would say there would be relative conditions for a period of time and then movement into deeper and deeper phase-states of harmony and creative unleashing. I do not know if the entire sequence unfolds by 2012 or if it unfolds over the next epoch. I suspect the latter.From the utopia you describe, it sounds like you lean heavily towards the 2012 end-date, not a later epoch. I, too, wonder if 2012 begins our phase, or completes it. We have come to such a dead-end as far as our psychic perception is concerned that just piercing the veil by 2012 will be an accomplishment. Consciousness is such a large, unmapped territory as far as it’s ability to travel, transcend and create that humanity may have to feel its way through the dark for awhile. But we’ll be on the road…

For a global utopia to come to fruition in a physical sense in this lifetime, I would have to quantitatively ask:

--How powerful is a Galactic Alignment? We all know that the full moon can influence behavior, but it doesn’t feed the poor…
--Can mass events influence global consciousness?
--How much of a confluence of consciousness have the mayans built up, so to speak, over the centuries? Could they return, psychically speaking, and influence or teach us on a global scale?

Personally, I think all those societal ills will still exist, it’s a matter of whether you can transcend them…for me, it makes perfect sense that if one can supersede the paralyzing gridlock of linear time, one can simply choose to move freely into the past, the future, or exist in this eternal now, but utilizing past and future probabilities to consciously avoid those traps. I agree that this is all a play, with the future reaching back into this present time, to drag us kicking and screaming through all the scenarios that need to be acted out first.

Lowlight

08-23-2004, 04:18 AM

yeah, i think you are saying many truths there katie. Like i said earlier its hard for me to talk of the nazis as a creative force considering my blood line and beliefs, but i feel that it is the case none the less. There is room for many views within this though, as perspective is the key. When Daniel says that he does not see the nazis or bush as creative, only destructive, he is from a given perspective very right. both hitler and bush have caused much destruction, and destuction itself was/is part of their heart, part of what they wanted to achieve. look at what bush does to the environment, look at the events of the Shoah. Here destruction reigns. but then there are always other perspectives, and the inclusion of these requires a certain bravery of thought particularly in relation to a jettisoning of any personal and or absolute morality. from their own perspectives bush and hitler were in the process of bringing forth, of creating a reality in the form of a state which had its own rules and its own agenda. no matter how much i dislike what they did and do they are from a certain perspective being creative (when we strip morality from the action of creation). I often wonder what these things, these passing actions and states of humanity, both light and dark which we call history would appear to Siva Nataraja. I imagine it as nothing but movement, process and change, free from morality as all great art must be.

[ August 23, 2004, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: LowlightOracle ]

Halfglass

08-23-2004, 04:44 AM

Daniel: What bible are you reading? Luke 6/4: "He entered the house..." (And said something like "The Son of Man controls the Sabbath").... Bla Bla...woof woof.) (Anyway it's early and I just drove back from the mountains.)

I think the guy was out gathering food on the sabbath (that is one of the most interesting bits in the whole bible--because Christ is saying "Go for it!" to the guy...or, to anyone enlightened!). But preachers always twist that part of the scripture around somehow...can you find it Daniel? I looked (at Luke 6/4) and sumpin's different between my bible and yers....(I'm not being a dick, I just can't find that part of the story and it's early and my cat wants food.) (Peace and Love.)

If you want to get a Christian thinking--now in the name of political correctness I'm adding my disclaimer(don't try to save me from your hellfire thank you, and I won't ...aww (as Kurt Colbain said: Nevermind)).

Ask them about Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and CREATE DISASTER;(!) I the Lord , do all these things."

[ August 23, 2004, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

daniel

08-23-2004, 06:31 AM

halfglass,

i deeply and heartily recommend reading Jung's essay "Answer to Job" for a necessary perspective on Christianity. The essay is a kind of psychoanalysis of the old testament god-image, who is evolving more consciousness in a dialectlc relationship with humanity, the Chosen People.

as for the crop circle, that i said represented "worlds separating," i now think it also represents worlds coming together - i was chatting with grant morrison and he noted that his reading was that the physical plane (malkuth) and the astral plane (yesod) are merging, which is bad for both materialists and illusionists. If the astral plane is becoming more real, that means that illusion will become more solid, as well as materiality becoming more transparent.

daniel

08-23-2004, 06:39 AM

Hi Charlie,

No I think that 2012 is not the end but a movement into a new octave of development. There will still be "problems" but even the problems of post-history will be joys compared to what we are dealing with now -- for instance i agree with rilke that it will probably take men about 1,000 years to learn how to love women properly.

Herbert Marcuse realized back in the 1960s that we needed a science of the imagination - that the current scientific mentality makes problems rather than solving them. If we applied rationality rationally, we would be able to feed the masses, clean up the planet, and so on. It is the basic irrational rationality of our present system that is destroying us. For instance there is more than enough food for people now - much food is destroyed by countries that overproduce, etc.

There are also an amazing array of solutions possible for ecological ills - check out the Bioneers website, www.bioneers.org (http://www.bioneers.org) for inspiration. The same with alternative forms of energy.

The current form of civilization is going to end very soon. We are therefore going to have to be ready to transition into a new way of being. I believe that we have the tools at our disposal to do so. We need to focus our conscious intent and our will to make the transition happen properly.

As mentioned on another thread, the movement to a new timing frequency - a new orientation to time, reified by a new calendar - will be a basic tool for shifting human consciousness into a different framework.

Halfglass

08-23-2004, 11:36 PM

Daniel: I'll look for the "Answer to Job" thanks. But this Malkuth and Yesod stuff wow! I've had visions of it going down like that too (McKenna's idea of time stopping, novelty curving into "splat!"...a New...(something!) where the physical and the thought flow together (electrons losing their orbits all at once?)). The earth became a place of Eden-like greenness and even gravity seemed weaker. But who knows eh? How far ahead of ourselves are we going with these lines of thought?

Lowlight

08-24-2004, 06:28 AM

Some very interesting ideas have been raised here. Halfglass, when you mention God creating both light and dark you are touching on something that is very close to my present research. Check out a book called 'Facing the abusing God' by David Blumenthal. He is overlooked by most jewish and christian theologians, if you look up his stuff you will see why. God/the divine reality as integrating both creation and destruction through the reconciliation of those opposites is i feel the only way for modern theology to find a viable response to the problem of evil present especially in the Shoah event. Daniel, i definitely agree with you over the new aeon being a coming together, a unification of many of our present opposites. Science and shamanism walking hand in hand would be an amazing creation (and destruction). If that is the future then i cannot wait.

daniel

08-24-2004, 07:17 AM

that is the future, and the future is now.

egret

08-25-2004, 08:49 PM

dear daniel,
the scary thing for me is if we take post-2012 the attitude that there is ‘one’ thing to explain anything.
this misses the turn-off and forks into a fundamental error of language.
words can only describe, not tell;
words, wording itself allows for no such fixity.
call it reification.
but you will be taking into another age just the thing which has made this one so horrific : the hardening of something poetic and descriptive (and much more fertile for learning) into something of supposedly metaphysical nature.

sorry to sound so blunt. I only mean that on some level it is really simple. and this is hardly a particularly malicious example (it is literally everywhere); I am only saying that what we need to take into any ‘new’ age, is that knowledge that all our terming , such as putting the designation ‘new’ on something, is but a fuzzy fuzzy description of something, that fixity on this or that beautiful informing myth (as Steiner, or his followers, so badly blundered) and believing our beautiful dreams, our dreaming which is our only lifeline to the (epistemologically) Unapproachable.

daniel

08-26-2004, 05:24 AM

egret,

As i keep saying, without a template or an imprint we are completely lost, and language is the way to make the imprint in this case. We didn't develop the mind in order to forfeit its capacities at its crucial juncture: Articulating what is happening is key to making it happen properly. The observer changes what is observed. The knower must be included in the known.

However I think I make it clear in all of my posts that I do not think there is "one" unitary answer at all - I believe in multiplicity and paradox and mystery. But that shouldn't deny anyone the fun of thinking and writing about these things. I could paraphrase every sentence with "From my individual perspective I offer this hypothesis..." or I could assum that the reader is smart enough to understand that for himself.

Also if thinking is the art of reconciling concepts and percepts, then ultimately the better act of reconciliation should "win" at least a temporary victory. This is why I think a change in the timing frequency is a crucial idea. Done properly, it would give us a better template for navigating reality on every level.

egret

08-27-2004, 05:32 PM

Daniel, please don’t get me wrong. its not that I disagree with what you are saying so much as something which is creeping through in the tone of voice. I think this tone can convey some pretty deep epistemological premises, not the kind that a ‘smart’ reader would have any way of making adjustments for, precisely because they are the premises that are common to our culture, the old one and much of the new one as well. its not that I am suggesting you add ‘in my humble opinion’ to everything you write; just using ‘seems’ rather than ‘is’ might already evoke a new way of looking at things, for writer and reader both.

as you say, the observer determines the observed to some extent, and if in the linguistic formulation of the observer there are implications of ‘belief’, of ‘foundational knowledge’, etc., then these are also part of the message. they seem to be rampant part of the message of this whole goddamn culture, which is why its scary to think that some might attempt to carry it through into some new age; its bathwater we really need to dump.

basically, I’m sensing something I think you could call ‘religious thinking’ ; for instance, you admit to ‘beliefs’, but I really think we are better off without them; ‘beliefs’ are of course about this or that, something which is generally expressed in language, but language is not able to do more than ‘suggest’, and this must remain always subordinate to the vision which gave rise to it in the first place.

religions generally mistake the crude linguistic formulation of a vision for the truth of the vision; so, the vision that ‘something big is coming down’ is definitely valid, and I think more could be said that just that. but to say ‘2012’, to say ‘no crime’, to say ‘definitely’, to say ‘I disagree with your perspective’ (as if any perspective could be either fundamentally wrong or right!) – that is a wording that implies not a shorthand for ‘well, we all know this is my opinion’, but something deeper : mistaking linguistic formulations for the visions.
actually, language is tautological and circular in many respects, and ‘disagreement’ is a choice interlocuters make. but its really insane to ‘agree to disagree’.

belief is what not only pretty much all past and present religious traditions operated on as foundational; but also ‘scientism’, the religion of a great many these days, does exactly the same. a truly new age would dispense with belief, and operate more closely to ‘vision’, understanding that vision is uncapturable even in a flurry of poetic phrases (but can perhaps be best suggested by such); certainly not in fixed formulations.

this is what I am calling ‘reification’. I see that you too used the term above, saying on the one hand not to reify negative ideas, but on the other that the new calendar would reify an advantageously altered relation to ‘things’ (which no doubt it would).

my point is that to ‘reify’ at all, is to carry through a really fundamental error quite endemic to not only western culture now, but to past cultures as far as we can see back (for the historical experience of the Maya, none too bright in many respects, maybe shows the effects of reifying even a relatively more harmonious and enlightening conception of time). but I am not saying language is useless, only that we need to incorporate into our formulations an awareness of its limitations. I too agree that we need to use our brains to form a linguistically communicable formulation of the vision of the future we have. a template, or imprint, as you say. but perhaps I could say, just to convey a point, that even those terms (template and imprint) have something ‘hard’ about them that might suggest a degree of reification, essentially correct though they certainly are.

I don’t know. I just don’t want to see a new religion started. that’s the last thing we need. religion in the sense that it is a fixer, and thus a killer, of spiritual vision. that’s what scares me about a lot of ‘new’ proposals.

Halfglass

08-28-2004, 10:12 AM

Lowlight; "Namaste!" --Is a greeting often used by the Hindus, being: one holyman/woman greeting another, and meaning: "The God that is in me/has created me, recognizes the same in you.") This thread is hopping subjects but what the hell. I say this because I missed your response to that quote from the bible I put up a few posts back, about "God" being the designer(?)--shall we call him/it?...of good and evil....light and dark, prosperity and demise.... You said you were doing research I belive in this area/subject-matter? I can tell you and I think Charlie was saying something about the future coming back to call us screaming to it, and that this is all a play!...etc. Is that yeah; In the end I think there's just the one It down there in The Void. But who can say what we will be getting into at the end of history here?

The hierarchical "non-physical" realms with, what(?) angels and such (or, as I have seen in the old trance state; realms of thrumming bands of "knowledge" where only certain "frequencies" shall we say, were "allowed" UP...with little glommer people/spirits trying to move UP to no avail. (where I know there were (dead)--having passed through their earthly existence already) Buddhists), are part of the Old Lonely ONE-IN_THE_VOID. (Will the HE/SHE/IT (in the void) decide to add and add and add to Its bag of knowledge...pretending to not know itself yet again or let it all hang out this time?)

~thoughts of immortality...some having lived in the bone-and-flesh trip enough might find themselves *pinched* off, to be little gods over other universes.... Or a more menial task of perhaps designing DNA for new creatures on new planets....

[ August 28, 2004, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

Lowlight

08-28-2004, 10:51 PM

Namaste!, there is a lot to talk about there halfglass! my research is primarily based upon trying to expand the traditional Judiac conception of God so that it is inclusive completely of destruction and then trying to work out what this means for theology in the light of the Holocaust. So bascially i am trying to formulate a more comprehensive Holocaust Theology. But I can only take this work so far because it is my PhD and so i cannot go to far off the track into other things that i would often like to. Hence my presence on this board, it is a grate release for other ideas which would often not really be taken up well in academia, especially the department at which i study. As for there being really only one in the void, i guess i kind of think of it as not in the void, but it being the void itself, with maybe the ability to concentrate itself so as to appear sometimes as an object within the void. obviously this means the void cannot be totally a void but that is probably the best word we have for facing this final reality. I guess this is where language fails us like egret, although i think in some sense egret maybe to harsh on language as it can be a truely powerful thing. Any comments on the world as language (McKenna)?

Halfglass

08-29-2004, 03:07 AM

I don't know...Egrets pretty good with words. (I wonder, if when Inner Traditions comes through...will I have to pay him for stealing the line: "blind groping hand of god reaching up the DNA strands to feel its created self" (or some such) that he wrote on an old thread I started concerning McKenna's "Machine Elf" theory.(?))

What I think about suffering is that everyone is in denial about just what we are...a group of beings/animals quite suddenly thrown into the IDEALS of living in nice little communities and that this IT in the Void has only NOW(!) picked Itself up from eons of slithering. Mind you it could be that only earth has had this happen. I know about the billions of opportunities there are in the universe for life to happen...but look what geology and fossil records are saying! Science isn't a demon either! Look! We are animals--get over it I say. There is the odd chance that we're the first to pear back into The Void! (It takes an odd, chance asteroid sometimes to clear away a world gone boring with reptiles eating each other for millions of years...(one little god to the next: "Pass me the remote! I wanna change that channel/planet.")) And so the It seeing its created backside (all dangling with odd pets like little plastic insect/atoms (nevermind you don't wanna know)) is a little put off as it isn't sure where Other might begin and Self end.

[ August 29, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

The Light

08-29-2004, 07:16 AM

The Dimensional Shift is happening right now.

2012 is already here.

It doesn't mean the end of thought, but the end of identification with thought-forms.

It is your very nature, your Self.

Look inside.

Look at a crop circle. Did aliens do it? Did humans? This is identification with thought forms.

You did it. The Source.

And if You did that...

Lowlight

08-29-2004, 10:13 AM

Halfglass, i think i missed something? have i got this right? you are writing a book called inner traditions? If so thats cool. yeah i think we are animals, but through humanity reality demonstrates the power of an animal, what an animal can be, what an animal can become. an animal can be a saviour and a dstroyer on a global scale. Even so i am dissapointed with what we are at the moment. I favour the Nietzschean view that man is a rope between the ape and the overman. Obviously not in a Nazi way which is a crude misrepresentation of Nietzsche's thought. I feel there is just so much more we could do and achieve. there is such a unification of art and life that awaits, but the implications of this i feel will be more thn we can hope to understand at the moment. We only have the shadows of the future around us.

Katie

08-29-2004, 12:53 PM

Lowlightoracle

very intersting about your PhD topic. I would love to read it when it is done. Maybe you can publish it as a book. The Nazis phenomenaon and the Holocaust were such a big deal that any further understanding on this can only do us all a power of good. If we can understand extremes like these to the fullest, my feeling is that we can truly master something major as human beings...

Lowlight

08-30-2004, 10:56 AM

Yeah Katie i hope to publish it in combination with my MA work as a single book, but that will be a long time off yet. I will have to see if i get my PhD first! Im glad you see it as important work, understanding extremes allows a greater picture to be formed, and even if it will never be a complete picture i guess the point is to see how far into this mystery we can go. peace.

jezebelle

08-31-2004, 05:37 AM

Hey halfglass, you go baby!
(I went to the Phila. Folk Festival afterall)

We flesh-boners are buddhas playing forget-me-not too, as we transcend to become the very gods that are experincing us
. . . life is a living expression of the inside touching the outside-multiplistic patterns. Like those frozon slots (each to his own pattern) we dance around in earthy mixings to become your hero your goddess, or god.

Halfglass

08-31-2004, 02:53 PM

Jez; That's some neat stuff.... "forgetmenots...the inside touching the out...." Yes it is the only way to have an adventure...to forget why you came here in the first place. It can get real ugly on this fleshride, but it beats laying there in The Big Empty.... WOOOoooonnnng!WOOOooonnng!...WOOOooonnnng! (The It so bored in the Thought-Mud Alone...and calling.).......WOOOoooonnnng! (Then of course It can't take it another minute and BANG! (Or should I say Big Bang?)

jezebelle

09-01-2004, 02:45 AM

the process does seem cyclical, one minute you're WOOOoooonnnng, WOOOoooonnnng! and then . . .
orgasm with electric-expansion into fleshboning. Only to wait for the next surge, of bigness touching the small

The playfulness continues.

Halfglass

09-01-2004, 11:42 AM

LOL. From the void to cells to us...that's a long way to travel just to get laid!

jezebelle

09-01-2004, 01:03 PM

L.O.L.!
We all go the way we go.

egret

09-02-2004, 04:17 PM

we all go all the way in!

jezebelle

09-03-2004, 05:53 AM

as my kid sometimes says: Mom that didn't come out right.

I'm trying to get across an idea of evolution . . . being an ectastic union between densities. One embroils part of itself so that the smoke can create a new state of being. A complete surrender or sacrifice is needed.
Like a process of getting fat and then learning to surrender or cook away the excess. Thereby a new state of awareness ensues. A child of the moment. Time can be suspended.

egret

09-07-2004, 08:50 AM

whoops, sorry. my misinterpretation. (your thought’s better anyway)

daniel

09-09-2004, 04:18 AM

egret,

thanks for your comments above about my tone and the dangers of reifying a new religious perspective... it is definitely something to watch.

it is difficult to navigate the language of "seems" vs "is", "belief" vs "hypothesis," etc. Partially it gets boring to make everything "seem" when sometimes one deeply suspects something just "is."

There is another point or idea behind my sometimes emphatic style, that I want you to consider. (I am just back from Burning Man so forgive me if my style is a bit less linear than usual).

I feel the necessity of "holding" a certain tone. If reality is becoming more psychic, if 2012 means perhaps the completion of process in which reality becomes psychically malleable (to a large or even complete extent), then we have to learn to project a positive and even utopian tone. Rudolf Steiner wrote about the practice of thought control - that one could learn to control one's thoughts so that no thought would enter one's head unless you wanted it there. And also, by separating thinking, feeling, and willing, you would no longer confuse these factors - you no longer project confused emotions into willful actions.

Taking Steiner's ideas seriously, as well as the idea of the increasingly psychic nature of reality, then it seems we have to find a way to hold the tone of positivity. Clearly, I don't *know* that post-2012 will be without crime or war or McDonalds, however, it seems to me that by holding that position, I hopefully contribute some psychic energy towards making it happen. This is also related to one of my other ideas: That the Kali Yuga or the Apocalypse is actually a state of mind - therefore so is the Golden Age. To project an infinite future of wars and mayhem and radioactive waste is to remain stuck in the Apocalypse mindscape. To project a possible human evolution beyond our current miasma is an attempt to institute the new Golden Age through an act of psychic ecology.

jezebelle

09-09-2004, 12:17 PM

Daniel
I think you are onto something very significant.
The idea of holding a certain tone, the compelling need not to waste your thoughts.

Stillness is needed (even) when your neighbor tries to take you on a fear trip, reguarding a barking dog and a careless dog owner. Assurance and calmness helps them get past the persecution idea. Fear can be halted by one's reaction.

"Act of psychic ecology" now that is a phrase with alot to boot. It hits right. Any more on this would be enjoyable.

I would love to hear of burning man, if you feel like it.
all the best, jez

Halfglass

09-09-2004, 12:25 PM

Daniel hey; "...thinking, feeling, willing"--Keeping a tab on these, and where they tend to show themselves as problem-makers...(the self- examination/personal inventory, or in a relationship, or words between two countries),...it's amazing and endless isn't it? Are we growing demigods? Those who do this sort of sorting? lol!

john_kellden

09-28-2004, 01:57 AM

I think a good idea would be for all so inclined to hold a tone of inclusivity.

daniel

09-28-2004, 02:38 AM

hi john,

welcome to the forum.

i think most of the time most of the people here manage to hold the tone of inclusivity. Although when you are thinking about issues that seem to be denied or actively repressed and ridiculed by the mass and mainstream, you can begin to feel a little insular after a while. I am sorry if some of the posts suggest a lack of inclusivity. Perhaps you can contribute some necessary correctives?

egret

10-06-2004, 09:06 PM

Daniel, thanks much for your sensitive reply. I appreciate that a lot. I have a poem I found yesterday, very beautiful, by cs lewis, which says way better than my wordy way what I wanted to say – I should have said this, not that ; hope you like it..: oh, and jezebelle, that wasn’t fear-mongering, neighborly though you called it; at least not in the same way I think you meant it (maybe I’m wrong about that) ; but on some level, what I’m calling ‘religion’ is something really to be feared by spiritual people. not meaning just ‘organized religion’. here’s the poem ( I found it in what looks like a great book I just started : Why God Won’t Go Away, by that guy who did neurological tests on Buddhist and Franciscan nuns… somebody mentioned that here once, I think … ?)

The one whom I bow to only knows to whom I bow
When I attempt the ineffable Name, murmuring Thou
And dream of Phaedian fancies and embrace in heart
Symbols (I know) which cannot be the thing thou art.

Thus always, taken at their word, all prayers blaspheme
Worshipping with frail images of folk-lore dream,
And all in their praying, self-deceived, address
The coinage of their own unquiet thoughts, unless
Thou in magnetic mercy to Thyself divert
Our arrows, aimed, unskillfully, beyond desert;

And all are idolators, crying unheard
To a deaf idol, if thou take them at thy word.
Take not, O lord, our literal sense. Lord, in thy great,
Unspoken speech our limping metaphor translate.

C.S. Lewis, “A Footnote to All Prayers”

mgirl

01-25-2005, 03:41 PM

The feelings some describe here about feeling lost or empty in an ideal world in which there is no struggle nor duality is a very common feeling for people evolving on the spiritual path - 2012 or not. One of the biggest obstacles to spiritual growth is addiction to drama- for lack of a better word. One could also call it excitement/tension derived from conflict. There is a feeling that, taken away the struggle, life becomes boring. Or that taken away the action, life becomes a drag. It is not so. I know this one very well. There was a time in which Spirit was asking that I leave behind a certain lifestyle, certain friends, that were a lot of fun but who were not aiming for higher things. I wrestled for a long time and eventually opted for the wholesome route. My main fear was that the wholesome route might be a dull life. I hesitated for ages as I believed that giving up the excitement of life in the fast lane, was signing up for a dull life. The truth is that new levels opened up in which the dull life became so much more fulfilling than my old life and full of deeper excitement than my lifestyle of before.
Wow, funny you should say this. Two days ago, i was going for a walk. I don't usually do drugs, but i found a gram of cocaine on the ground. That is very unusual because i am in a country where cocaine is hard to find. Anyway, i picked it up, wondering what it could be. I smelled it and realised it was coke. I thought, "what should i do"? and looked around. Nobody was there so i took it home, not believing my luck. Now i know it is a bad thing to pick up a bag of drugs off the side of the road, but i did, so no need to say so.

Anyways, i took it home, opened it and pretty much assumed it was coke, although i wasn't entirely sure and was worried it might be Special K (ketamine), which i am not interested in taking.

The next day, being yesterday, i was bored at home, it was 35 degrees outside, my car had broken down, so i decided to dip into the coke, just to see what it would do. I was tentative at first, but when i realised it was safe and relatively 'clean', i had more. Anyway, i went on this 'trip' and discovered this site, which i find 'amusing' because i have been thinking about these 'spiritual' things for ages now but haven't voiced it to anyone.

A few months ago, i realised i wanted to evolve spiritually and asked the universe or 'life', or whatever you call it, to speed up the process and i asked to understand all the secrets of 'life'. Anyway, since i did that, i have been through a series of ups and downs. Just recently i have wondered what the point in living is and have contemplated suicide, although not emotionally nor for any specific reason, but simply because i thought it would be more expedient (i am going to die one day so i might as well speed up the process etc.). Just recently i have been waking up and periodically feeling as though i have died or that i am dying, for no apparent reason, experiencing periods of the most intense foresakeness, but for no apparent reason either. And no, i do not do drugs (except for this cocaine time), do not smoke cigarettes or marijuana and rarely drink alcohol.

So, the point i am trying to make is that if i hadn't have found the cocaine, i *probably* wouldn't have found this site. The other point i am trying to make is that i think i have been experiencing a series of ego-deaths and that's why i have been contemplating ending my life, which i don't really want to do, and why i have been feeling like i am dying when i wake up. I guess i feel that the cocaine thing was all "meant to be".

It is now the next day and i don't feel any side effects. In fact, i feel fine. It's all very weird. But anyway, at least now i know that i am probably experiencing an ego-death and that there is a purpose behind my uncomfortable feelings. I really want to take my life to a higher level and have been aware of this for a long time. I also think there is a spiritual revolution going on on the earth. Just lately, i have decided to 'let go' (of control) and see what manifests before me (rather than being a 'control freak'). I have also been following my instincts in spite of my mind sometimes telling me that things and decisions are not logical. For example, if i end up in the longest queue in the supermarket, if it "feels" right to be there i will not move, rather than 'moving' to the shorter, more expedient queue. Don't ask me why i am doing these things, i am not sure. All i know is that i have a set of rules i am now following. It's weird. Also, don't think i am a dirty 'stop out' for using the cocaine. I just had the urge to and it all worked out.

Life is a strange thing.

[ January 25, 2005, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: mgirl ]