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daniel
03-15-2003, 05:39 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/nyregion/15FISH.html


March 15, 2003
Fish Talks, Town Buzzes
By COREY KILGANNON

NEW SQUARE, N.Y., March 13 ˜ And so it came to pass that a talking carp,
shouting in Hebrew, shattered the calm of the New Square Fish Market and created
what many here are calling a miracle.

Of course, others are calling it a Purim trick, a loopy tale worthy of Isaac
Bashevis Singer or just a whopping fish story concocted by a couple of
meshugenehs.

Whatever one calls it, the tale of the talking fish has spread in recent weeks
throughout this tight-knit community, populated by about 7,000 members of the
Skver sect of Hasidim, and throughout the Hasidic world, inspiring heated
debate, Talmudic discussions and derisive jokes.

The story goes that a 20-pound carp about to be slaughtered and made into
gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner began speaking in Hebrew, shouting apocalyptic
warnings and claiming to be the troubled soul of a revered community elder who
recently died.

Many people here believe that it was God revealing himself that day to two fish
cutters in the fish market, Zalmen Rosen, a 57-year-old Hasid with 11 children,
and his co-worker Luis Nivelo, a 30-year-old Ecuadorean immigrant.

Some people say the story is as credible as the Bible's account of the burning
bush. Others compare it to a U.F.O. sighting. But the story rapidly spread
around the world, first through word of mouth, then through the Jewish press.

The two men say they have each gotten hundreds of phone calls from Jews all over
the world.

"Ah, enough already about the fish," Mr. Rosen said today at the shop, as he
skinned a large carp. "I wish I never said anything about it. I'm getting so
many calls every day, I've stopped answering. Israel, London, Miami, Brooklyn.
They all want to hear about the talking fish."

Here then is the story, according to the two men, the only witnesses. Mr. Rosen,
whose family owns the store, and Mr. Nivelo, who has worked at the shop for
seven years, say that on Jan. 28 at 4 p.m. they were carving up carp.

Mr. Nivelo, who is not Jewish, lifted a live carp out of a box of iced-down fish
and was about to club it in the head with a rubber hammer.

But the fish began speaking in Hebrew, according to the two men. Mr. Nivelo does
not understand Hebrew, but the shock of a fish speaking any language, he said,
forced him against the wall and down to the slimy wooden packing crates that
cover the floor.

He looked around to see if the voice had come from the slop sink, the other room
or the shop's cat. Then he ran into the front of the store screaming, "The fish
is talking!" and pulled Mr. Rosen away from the phone.

"I screamed, `It's the devil! The devil is here!' " he recalled. "But Zalmen
said to me, `You crazy, you a meshugeneh.' "

But Mr. Rosen said that when he approached the fish he heard it uttering
warnings and commands in Hebrew.

"It said `Tzaruch shemirah' and `Hasof bah,' " he said, "which essentially means
that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is near."

The fish commanded Mr. Rosen to pray and to study the Torah and identified
itself as the soul of a local Hasidic man who died last year, childless. The man
often bought carp at the shop for the Sabbath meals of poorer village residents.

Mr. Rosen panicked and tried to kill the fish with a machete-size knife. But the
fish bucked so wildly that Mr. Rosen wound up cutting his own thumb and was
taken to the hospital by ambulance. The fish flopped off the counter and back
into the carp box and was butchered by Mr. Nivelo and sold.

The story has been told and retold, and many Jews believe that the talking fish
was a rare shimmer of God's spirit. Some call it a warning about the dangers of
the impending war in Iraq.

"Two men do not dream the same dream," said Abraham Spitz, a New Square resident
who stopped by the store this week. "It is very rare that God reminds people he
exists in this modern world. But when he does, you cannot ignore it."

Others consider it as fictional as Tony Soprano's talking-fish dream in an
episode of the television series "The Sopranos."

"Listen to what I'm telling you: Only children take this seriously," said Rabbi
C. Meyer of the New Square Beth Din of Kashrus, which administers kosher-food
rules. "This is like a U.F.O. story. I don't care if it is the talk of the
town."

Whether hoax or historic event, it jibes with the belief of some Hasidic sects
that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish.

Unnatural occurrences play a part in the mystical beliefs of members of the
Skver sect. On the other hand, some skeptics note that the Jewish festival of
Purim, which starts Monday night, is marked by merriment and pranks, which might
be a less elevated explanation for the story.

Some community members are calling the two men an enlightened pair chosen to
receive the message. Others have said that Mr. Nivelo may have been selected
because he is not Jewish.

"If this was a story concocted by a bunch of Jewish guys, it might be suspect,
but this Luis, or whatever his name is, he has no idea what this means," said
Matisyahu Wolfberg, a local lawyer.

"If people say God talks to them, we recommend a psychiatrist, but this is
different," said Mr. Wolfberg, sitting in his office with his black hat resting
atop his computer terminal.

"This is one of those historical times when God reveals himself for a reason. It
has sent spiritual shock waves throughout the Jewish community worldwide and
will be talked about throughout the ages."

Zev Brenner, who last week broadcast a show about the fish on "Talk Line," his
talk radio show on Jewish issues, on WMCA-AM (570) and WSNR-AM (620), said that
the story has fascinated the religious community worldwide.

"I've gotten calls from all over asking `Did you hear about the fish?' " he
said. "You can imagine, a talking fish has got people buzzing. This is going to
be talked about for a long time to come, unless it's somehow verified as a hoax,
which is hard to imagine, since the proof has been eaten up."

Mr. Brenner said that the story is so well known that it has inspired a whole
new genre of wedding jokes for Jewish comedians.

"The station had an advertiser, a gefilte fish manufacturer, who considered
changing his slogan to `Our fish speaks for itself,' but decided people would be
offended," he said.

As for Mr. Nivelo, a practicing Christian, he still believes the babbling carp
was the devil. His wife told him he was crazy, and his 6-year-old daughter even
laughs at him.

"I don't believe any of this Jewish stuff," he said. "But I heard that fish
talk."

Today, he stood in the back of the store in a large rubber apron and gloves,
wearing his Harry Potter baseball cap backward, open boxes of whitefish at his
feet.

He said that Spanish-speaking rabbis have been calling his home every day and
night asking him to recount the story.

"It's just a big headache for me," he added. "I pull my phone out of the wall at
night. I don't sleep and I've lost weight."

Mr. Rosen said that he spoke to his wife, who was visiting Israel, and that she
had already heard the story from someone else.

"My phone doesn't stop ringing," Mr. Rosen said. "Always interruptions, people
coming in and taking their picture with me."

He paused and turned to Mr. Nivelo, who was cutting salmon for a customer.

"No, too big," he said. "She wants appetizer."

Copyright 2003 The New York Times

Halfglass
03-18-2003, 03:51 PM
In Nubers,22:28 Balaam's donkey talks to him (The Lord opened the mouth of the ass...) If the Jews believe in the old testament, then they shouldn't be so quick to doubt now should they? And if its "Just like UFO's" (the talking fish story) what do the Jews say about Ezekiel"s obvious discription of one? (Food for thought --I don't know what to think about this one!)

[ March 19, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

Woodpecker
03-19-2003, 11:37 AM
Every Jew has his or her own opinion about whether to believe in the Old Testament or not, though the Orthodox tend to; however, every Jew I've talked to (including myself) makes a distinction between the Old Testament and the present. Thus, just because something is reminiscent of something in the Old Testament, as you rightly point out, doesn't mean it's automatically legit. (I'm not passing judgement on the fish story itself one way or the other.)

As to how Jews have interpreted Ezekiel's vision, there's quite a lot of material on that, going back several thousand years. It has a lot to do with the historical moment when it happened. The First Temple, which King Solomon built, had just been destroyed and the Israelite culture had been radically disrupted by the invading Babylonians. If I remember my Jewish mysticism correctly, the vision might have had to do with the concept that the Temple was no longer on earth, but was now more of a state of mind, or something that would exist in heaven only. Take a look again at Ezekiel's account of the vision; a lot of the features of the "UFO" had been features of the temple itself and its symbolism.

That's barely scratching the surface of what's been said about it. I don't know exactly where to direct you for more clues to it. But the info is out there.

Check out Martin Buber's Tales of the Hasidim for strikingly shamanic stories of spiritual people and their encounters with the sacred.

[ March 19, 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

Halfglass
03-19-2003, 03:56 PM
Tales of Hasidim; is that the long discription of wars involving flying crafts and gods? I think I saw something on that once on t.v. or something --interesting stuff I'll have to check it out.

Woodpecker
03-20-2003, 03:09 AM
No; maybe you're thinking of the Vedas, from India?

The Hasidim (such as Zalmen Rosen in the story above) are the Jews you see with the big beards and felt hats and the curly sidelocks. The movement dates back to the first half of the 18th century in Lithuania. They were very into democratizing the religious experience and making it more experiential than theoretical. The founder was Israel ben Eliezer, known as the Baal Shem Tov, or "Besht" for short. Baal Shem means "master of names"; Baal Shems were mystics who went on celestial, out of body flights, and came down again with "divine language" or names of god or of the qualities of heaven. "Tov" is Hebrew for "good." Jewish mysticism has the same idea as McKenna that the world is made of (divine) language. And so if you can channel some, it can help you and your community through blessings and healings. Shamans do the same with their journeys and their healing songs. And Hasidim had, or have, complex language-based visualisations and meditations to launch themselves. I don't know much about the Hasidim today. I'm only disappointed that they somehow ended up on the opposite end of the political spectrum (right wing) from me. Buber's book is full of stories like the one about the talking fish: quirky little miracles and the people who scratch their heads and try and figure out what they mean; stories of healings and angelic presences, things of that nature.

[ March 20, 2003, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: Woodpecker ]

Halfglass
03-20-2003, 11:18 AM
Woodpecker; Yes it was the Vedas I was thinking of. (Now I'm thinking of looking into that as well!) I work with a Jewish man and although he's not very "religious" or orthodox, he would not even say the word Kabala (sp?). (I was very interested to have his take on it but he apparently deems it evil.) What you're saying about The Hasidim and language is very interesting to me now. After a recent very heavy trip (it's posted) I had communications with...well, Others. And eveything I "sensed" was through an intuitive grasp of the essential nature or meaning of a "language"--whether it was visual or audible is pointless. Even the idea of a question, didn't exist--yet I could "ask" and be "answered" (at some point the "answers" were coming in ahead of the "questions"). Anyway, you know how hard this stuff can be to express when the psychedelic breaks the familiar link with the syntax we have always used to enforce how we think our consciousness works. But it got me rereading Mckenna's ideas about language, and what you're saying might have something in it for me (The Hasidim and what they are saying about language being basically everything--language-based visualizations!--I think I know what they bloody well mean!) Thanks.

[ March 20, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

SteveDionysianUnderground
03-22-2003, 09:25 AM
God IS dead, now!?

So according to some God returned as a fish and got promptly chopped up and sold in the market!

A real sign of the times? :confused:

Originally posted by daniel:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/nyregion/15FISH.html


March 15, 2003
Fish Talks, Town Buzzes
By COREY KILGANNON

NEW SQUARE, N.Y., March 13 ˜ And so it came to pass that a talking carp,
shouting in Hebrew, shattered the calm of the New Square Fish Market and created
what many here are calling a miracle.

Of course, others are calling it a Purim trick, a loopy tale worthy of Isaac
Bashevis Singer or just a whopping fish story concocted by a couple of
meshugenehs.

Whatever one calls it, the tale of the talking fish has spread in recent weeks
throughout this tight-knit community, populated by about 7,000 members of the
Skver sect of Hasidim, and throughout the Hasidic world, inspiring heated
debate, Talmudic discussions and derisive jokes.

The story goes that a 20-pound carp about to be slaughtered and made into
gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner began speaking in Hebrew, shouting apocalyptic
warnings and claiming to be the troubled soul of a revered community elder who
recently died.

Many people here believe that it was God revealing himself that day to two fish
cutters in the fish market, Zalmen Rosen, a 57-year-old Hasid with 11 children,
and his co-worker Luis Nivelo, a 30-year-old Ecuadorean immigrant.

Some people say the story is as credible as the Bible's account of the burning
bush. Others compare it to a U.F.O. sighting. But the story rapidly spread
around the world, first through word of mouth, then through the Jewish press.

The two men say they have each gotten hundreds of phone calls from Jews all over
the world.

"Ah, enough already about the fish," Mr. Rosen said today at the shop, as he
skinned a large carp. "I wish I never said anything about it. I'm getting so
many calls every day, I've stopped answering. Israel, London, Miami, Brooklyn.
They all want to hear about the talking fish."

Here then is the story, according to the two men, the only witnesses. Mr. Rosen,
whose family owns the store, and Mr. Nivelo, who has worked at the shop for
seven years, say that on Jan. 28 at 4 p.m. they were carving up carp.

Mr. Nivelo, who is not Jewish, lifted a live carp out of a box of iced-down fish
and was about to club it in the head with a rubber hammer.

But the fish began speaking in Hebrew, according to the two men. Mr. Nivelo does
not understand Hebrew, but the shock of a fish speaking any language, he said,
forced him against the wall and down to the slimy wooden packing crates that
cover the floor.

He looked around to see if the voice had come from the slop sink, the other room
or the shop's cat. Then he ran into the front of the store screaming, "The fish
is talking!" and pulled Mr. Rosen away from the phone.

"I screamed, `It's the devil! The devil is here!' " he recalled. "But Zalmen
said to me, `You crazy, you a meshugeneh.' "

But Mr. Rosen said that when he approached the fish he heard it uttering
warnings and commands in Hebrew.

"It said `Tzaruch shemirah' and `Hasof bah,' " he said, "which essentially means
that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is near."

The fish commanded Mr. Rosen to pray and to study the Torah and identified
itself as the soul of a local Hasidic man who died last year, childless. The man
often bought carp at the shop for the Sabbath meals of poorer village residents.

Mr. Rosen panicked and tried to kill the fish with a machete-size knife. But the
fish bucked so wildly that Mr. Rosen wound up cutting his own thumb and was
taken to the hospital by ambulance. The fish flopped off the counter and back
into the carp box and was butchered by Mr. Nivelo and sold.

The story has been told and retold, and many Jews believe that the talking fish
was a rare shimmer of God's spirit. Some call it a warning about the dangers of
the impending war in Iraq.

"Two men do not dream the same dream," said Abraham Spitz, a New Square resident
who stopped by the store this week. "It is very rare that God reminds people he
exists in this modern world. But when he does, you cannot ignore it."

Others consider it as fictional as Tony Soprano's talking-fish dream in an
episode of the television series "The Sopranos."

"Listen to what I'm telling you: Only children take this seriously," said Rabbi
C. Meyer of the New Square Beth Din of Kashrus, which administers kosher-food
rules. "This is like a U.F.O. story. I don't care if it is the talk of the
town."

Whether hoax or historic event, it jibes with the belief of some Hasidic sects
that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish.

Unnatural occurrences play a part in the mystical beliefs of members of the
Skver sect. On the other hand, some skeptics note that the Jewish festival of
Purim, which starts Monday night, is marked by merriment and pranks, which might
be a less elevated explanation for the story.

Some community members are calling the two men an enlightened pair chosen to
receive the message. Others have said that Mr. Nivelo may have been selected
because he is not Jewish.

"If this was a story concocted by a bunch of Jewish guys, it might be suspect,
but this Luis, or whatever his name is, he has no idea what this means," said
Matisyahu Wolfberg, a local lawyer.

"If people say God talks to them, we recommend a psychiatrist, but this is
different," said Mr. Wolfberg, sitting in his office with his black hat resting
atop his computer terminal.

"This is one of those historical times when God reveals himself for a reason. It
has sent spiritual shock waves throughout the Jewish community worldwide and
will be talked about throughout the ages."

Zev Brenner, who last week broadcast a show about the fish on "Talk Line," his
talk radio show on Jewish issues, on WMCA-AM (570) and WSNR-AM (620), said that
the story has fascinated the religious community worldwide.

"I've gotten calls from all over asking `Did you hear about the fish?' " he
said. "You can imagine, a talking fish has got people buzzing. This is going to
be talked about for a long time to come, unless it's somehow verified as a hoax,
which is hard to imagine, since the proof has been eaten up."

Mr. Brenner said that the story is so well known that it has inspired a whole
new genre of wedding jokes for Jewish comedians.

"The station had an advertiser, a gefilte fish manufacturer, who considered
changing his slogan to `Our fish speaks for itself,' but decided people would be
offended," he said.

As for Mr. Nivelo, a practicing Christian, he still believes the babbling carp
was the devil. His wife told him he was crazy, and his 6-year-old daughter even
laughs at him.

"I don't believe any of this Jewish stuff," he said. "But I heard that fish
talk."

Today, he stood in the back of the store in a large rubber apron and gloves,
wearing his Harry Potter baseball cap backward, open boxes of whitefish at his
feet.

He said that Spanish-speaking rabbis have been calling his home every day and
night asking him to recount the story.

"It's just a big headache for me," he added. "I pull my phone out of the wall at
night. I don't sleep and I've lost weight."

Mr. Rosen said that he spoke to his wife, who was visiting Israel, and that she
had already heard the story from someone else.

"My phone doesn't stop ringing," Mr. Rosen said. "Always interruptions, people
coming in and taking their picture with me."

He paused and turned to Mr. Nivelo, who was cutting salmon for a customer.

"No, too big," he said. "She wants appetizer."

Copyright 2003 The New York Times

Woodpecker
03-22-2003, 01:09 PM
Halfglass,
The scriptural basis (as opposed to the experiential basis) for the universe-made-of-language idea is phrases in Genesis like "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light."

Deceptively simple, right? People unpacked that line and said, "OK, then, the substance of light must be divine language. In fact, the underlying substance of everything must be."

Whoever came up with that line in the first place, several thousand years ago, must have been on roughly the same plane as you or McKenna at some point.

It's interesting stuff you saw there. Thanks for posting it.

Incidentally, here's a link http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM to some bits of the Book of Enoch, an old text that didn't make it into the Bible. Enoch, according to Genesis, was of the 7th generation of humans (Adam and Eve being the first). He lived 365 years and then was taken up bodily into Heaven without having to die.

The link I pasted in has the story of the Watchers, 200 angels who went bad. They were supposed to watch over the earth, but they said, "Look, the daughters of men are beautiful; we're too far from Heaven and too close to the earth; brothers, let us sin." So they descended and the trouble started. Enoch was friends with them, and argued their case before God when the shit hit the fan. The story goes on from there.

There are two other completely different Books of Enoch, one of which survived the passage of time in a dry monestary in Ethiopia, and each one is trippier than the last. In one, Enoch is transformed into an angel (God's right-hand angel, in fact) and renamed Metatron. The transformation into an angel is really something. 365,000 eyes burst out all over his body, for example, and 180,000 pairs of wings. Later he's given a crown with all the letters that make up all of creation (spiritual as well as physical) inscribed on it.

Kabala is the "hidden" Jewish wisdom tradition, as opposed to the "revealed" one of the Torah. Though how hidden can it be these days when you can take a class in it at the local YMCA. According to the third of the Enoch books, Metatron was up on Mt. Sinai with Moses, and at the same time as he gave Moses the 10 commandments, Metatron also gave him the Kabala, the mystical tradition, pouring massive waves of information into his mind (to use a McKenna ayahuasca metaphor).

'Nuff said for now. Peace.