Further compounds in question

[Eirias]

I regret to inform that according to the latest news on the CCLE page, that there is a proposal to "emergency schedule" 5-MeO-DIPT and AMT. I have not heard anything else on the matter, and can only hope that this is a hoax similar to the one generated on erowid in regard to various tryptamines around the time that 2CT7 was prohibited in the US. This deeply saddens me, as I see vast potential for the application of these substances as catalysts for change and transcendence.
Please if you have any additional information, let it be expressed here. :confused:

[yahazim]

AMT is not a compound that produces trancendance.

Hate to break it to ya.

There are far better compounds available, the organics being the best, IMHO.

[daniel]

yahazim,

I don't know. I found AMT to be "strong medicine" the one time I tried it.

I had an experience I've never replicated: I could see fast-moving geometrical forms swizzling around people's bodies - perhaps some kind of emanation of their energy bodies, as Rudolf Steiner describes some similar perceptions.

[yahazim]

^^^

That's nothing a medium to high dose of LSD will not show you. LSD has always been more gentle on my system.

I felt ravaged by AMT for days after a 35mg dose. It felt like my nervous system was stripped by a solvent or that i went through electroshock therapy. I have a strong nervous system, and I'm very sensative too, so I tend to feel these things more than most people. I practice kundalini & hatha yoga daily, and have been for almost 8 years.

Daniel -- thanks for responding. Would you respond to the post I made on the Bon in Esoteric Philosophy? THANKS DANIEL. I'm really happy you published your book.

[ February 06, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: yahazim ]

[Argon Steele]

what is amt (and for that matter 5-meo-dipt)?

I'm very much not into putting any non-organic drugs myself in. After the DPT trip in BOTH you will never find me doing that shit IMHO.

but I'm always curious to hear the stories!

[evlove]

I personally do not believe that any compounds produce transcendence. Some compounds are associated with transcendent experiences (and some certainly more than others), but I think it is a fallacy (and to some a serious problem) to believe that certain compounds produce transcendence. In Shulgin terms, no compound exists that consistantly brings about a "++++". Transcendence is not a thing to be produced.

Having said that, ingestion of either AMT or 5 meo-dipt has been associated with very interesting insights and experiences in this explorer. While both of these substances may not be as frequently associated with such experiences as say ayahuasca, this may have more to do with the manner in which they are taken than the substances themselves.

It should also be noted that adverse reactions like those reported above are not uncommon on these substances in certain individuals, while others experience little of this.

[armedia]

Originally posted by Argon Steele:
I'm very much not into putting any non-organic drugs myself in. After the DPT trip in BOTH you will never find me doing that shit IMHO.I'm always amused by this false distinction between "organic" and "non-organic" drugs (AFAIK there are no known inorganic drugs, except maybe lithium).

Argon -

You seem particularly fond of DMT. That is organic, both in the traditional sense, being made up of carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen, and also in the sense that it is made by some plants and animals. But most of the smokable DMT going around I suspect was made by human hands, and would be considered non-organic by your criteria.

On the other hand, as Shulgin said somewhere, humans are as organic as any plant around, and the products they make are therefore organic too.

So for this reason, DPT is organic, in all senses of the word.

The different effects to be had from different chemicals probably stem less from the plant vs. synthetic distinction and have more to do with an array of more subtle effects.

1. There are plenty of plant-produced compounds that produce bizzare, scary and even harmful effects (e.g, scopolamine.) So organic is not necessarily better.

2. I think the intentionality of the producer (plant or human or otherwise) plays into the effect of the drug. Chemical synthesis is an alchemical/magickal process and the product can definitely pick up the intentions of its maker. Which is another reason you should get to know your supplier.

3. Compounds that don't exist in nature (as far as we know; diazepine-type compound were recently discovered in plants) have not had the benefit of a long history of psychonautic use. So perhaps the places they take one are darker/stranger because they are unfamiliar to us (and we to whomever is on the other side; maybe the weirdness comes from the shock THEY feel on having their dimension broken into.)

That said, my own experiences with DPT have been uniformly positive, of the Kundalini rising-type, and entity free.

Just my opinion,
Armedia

http://home.attbi.com/%7earmedia/images/salviablossom.gif

[ February 19, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: armedia ]

[evlove]

Armedia,

I could not agree with you more. People and the things they make are as natural as anything else. The separation that many make between natural and man made often serves to strengthen the idea the people are separate from Nature and this idea often leads to people acting as if this is true.

[daniel]

The distinction btw "natural" and "synthetic" compounds interests me less than the fact that so many of these new "doorways" have popped open in recent decades - previously a new natural compound was probably discovered on the earth every 500 years or so. In "The Art of Dreaming," Castaneda writes about scouts from other dimensions visiting one's dreams and trying to entice lucid dreamers back to their extra-dimensional home. It seems to be part of the "phase transition" we are now in that the human realm is beseiged by these numerous visionary catalysts at this point in time.

This goes back to McKenna's question, Are we looking in at the Other, or is the Other looking in at us? I feel relatively confident that the answer is the latter.

Someone emailed me about an ayahuasca experience where the "spirits" told her that, in their opinion, the human race was just now starting to become sentient - a cause for great rejoicing in "spirit land", according to her.

[Halfglass]

I'm compelled to chime in here about DXM one more time. On a 1500mg trip (perhaps my last) I was "challenged" by a "liquid robot" (words fail) to remain in it's presence or follow it. It was definitely "Other" and NOT a mind projection. I took the challange and moved with this thing--impression: intellegent/emotionless. I was convinced I would die if I followed, then feeling I had already died (ego long gone) I gave-up to the thing and it turned and injected itself into me! It looked like a collage of grey rounded-off rectangles which were changing shape. There were "sensors" like the eye posts of a snail, red in color. After this injection I came to in my bed with a complete psychotic break. I kept flashing into reality and saying my name out loud and breaking with reality again in a time freeze. I thought "I'll have to kill myself if I don't come back from this". I flashed into awareness over and over, having alien memories of the fact that I was a human who lived on a planet called earth. Each time I said my name out loud (later I remembered don Juan said warriors always said their name out loud to seperate themselves from infinity). Well it must have helped--I'm back apparently none the worse. But I'm with Daniel--"man-made" or not, these new catalysts are letting the Others in--whatever one may think of their naturalness.

[ February 19, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Morninggloryseed]

>AMT is not a compound that produces >trancendance.
>Hate to break it to ya.
>There are far better compounds available,
>the organics being the best, IMHO.

As pointed out, no drug produces trancendance. Psychedelic drugs may be a catalyst to such experiences, but they in and of themselves do not produce them. The experience of trancendance comes from within.

Though AMT is a poor psychedelic from all I read (this is one I have not yet sampled), it can and has produced true +4 mystical experiences. In fact, a few such reports exist at erowid.

[Charlie]

On the other hand, as Shulgin said somewhere, humans are as organic as any plant around, and the products they make are therefore organic too.Humans make nuclear weapons…are they ‘organic’ as well, in the sense that is referred to? I don’t think so, and I think if you want to experience the more powerful entheogens, using plant substances in their natural forms shows greater respect for these allies than firing up chemical freebase powder.

A qualitative comparison surely doesn't exist, but I would bet that the imbibing of respectfully brewed ayahuasca in a ceremonial setting gives more insight to its user than someone sitting with a bong and 40 mg of freebase DMT in their dormroom. Perhaps that is elitist thinking, or just completely wrongheaded, but if you believe (as I do) that nature is a very real, living entity, any use of her gifts in a more natural form will bring one closer to said "transcendence".

[daniel]

With 10x salvia and synthetic DMT, we are doing the same thing with psychedelics we did by converting opium to heroin: seeking to accentuate the rush to the maximum level. Whether this creates terrifying or pleasurable states seems to matter less to people than the contemporary impulse to push to the extreme.

It seems like we can't appreciate something unless it shocks and essentially annihilates us. I do see this as one manifestation of our end time or Kali Yuga condition. Or, as Arguelles would say, a symptom of our modern misconception of time.

[armedia]

Charlie -

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you here, on a few points. Like it or not, anything we humans make, nuclear weapons, AOL promotional mailers, or the Pyramid of Giza, all of these things are no less "organic" than any vine, leaf or fruit. Humans are biological organisms and fundamentally no different than any others. We just happen to be particularly good at making things out of other things. Is a beaver dam organic or non-organic?

Where we differ, I believe, is in the fact that we THINK of ourselves as different, and therefore place ourselves outside the domain of biological life on the planet. Besides being an absurd fallacy, this is precisely what allows us to create things of such terrible power as nuclear weapons (and AOL promotional mailers.)

You use the word "respectably" in reference to brewing ayahuasca, and that is my point precisely. What is special about the brew is not its "organic" origins, but the respect and intention given it by the maker/user (along with the particular 'signature' of the vine and leaf.)

That 'someone sitting with a bong and 40 mg of freebase DMT in their dormroom' is equally free to give the ritual its proper respect and attention (though she may not realize the benefits of doing so, nor have the knowledge to do it properly.)

If we humans had a living, healthy relationship to the natural world, if we understood ourselves to be a small but integral part of it, we would treat our OWN creations with the respect they deserve.

- Armedia

[ February 20, 2003, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: armedia ]

[armedia]

With 10x salvia and synthetic DMT, we are doing the same thing with psychedelics we did by converting opium to heroin: seeking to accentuate the rush to the maximum level. Whether this creates terrifying or pleasurable states seems to matter less to people than the contemporary impulse to push to the extreme.

It seems like we can't appreciate something unless it shocks and essentially annihilates us. I do see this as one manifestation of our end time or Kali Yuga condition. Or, as Arguelles would say, a symptom of our modern misconception of time.

Daniel -

Now that I will agree with. I think one CAN get somewhere/thing useful from "pure" compounds, but the purer the compound the greater the peril, which is another thing few people understand going in.

Unfortunately, I fear that there's a kind of pandora's box with these things, such that once someone has tasted the pleasure of pure cocaine or heroine, for examples, they are unlikely to want/be able to return to the drugs in their dilute plant forms. (Though with DMT or salvia this is not necessarily true.)

Coca leaf is a wonderful, even healthful medicine, but if it was available in any quantity in the US, hundreds of hardheads would be purifying it as soon as they could.

Sigh . . .

[ February 20, 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: armedia ]

[Morninggloryseed]

Pure DMT isn't any more or less antural than ayahuasca brew. It elitist thinking to the max.

[Charlie]

I didn’t mean to deny or belittle anyone’s experience using a chemical derivative. I also can’t say I’ve tried both, and thereby cannot make a meaningful comparison. But someone like Terence McKenna has; this is from an interview with High Times:

HT: How do you view the increasing waves of designer psychedelics and brain enhancement machines in the context of Rupert Sheldrake's theory of morphogenetic fields?
TM: Well I'm hopeful, but somewhat suspicious. I think drugs should come from the natural world, and be use-tested by shamanically-oriented cultures, then they have a very deep morphogenetic field, because they've been used for thousands and thousands of years in magical contexts. A drug produced in the laboratory, and suddenly distributed worldwide simply amplifies the global noise present in the historical crisis. And then there's the very practical consideration that one cannot predict the long term effects of a drug produced in a laboratory. Something like peyote, or morning glories, or mushrooms have been used for vast stretches of time without detrimental social consequences.

I also read an interview with McKenna where he said he stopped smoking DMT because he received an intuitive message while under the effects of ayahuasca that DMT was a “water spirit”, which did not like being burned.

[armedia]

Charlie -

While i too am an admirer of TMK and his ideas, there is no question that he held a bias against 'synthetics' over 'natural' drugs that was only partly based upon logic. First of all, it all depends on how you define 'natural'. I'm inclined to agree that there is a kind of 'tried and true' agage that can be applied to drugs with a long history of shamanic usage, that only means the newer substances and plants are unknowns and not de facto dangerous, requiring therefore a higher degree of caution with their use. On the other hand, shamans have been using datura for a long long time, but that don't make it any safer.

As for DMT and water spirits, D.M. Turner said something similar, but that didn't stop him from using it. He simply did it near or on large bodies of water, like on a river bank or on the deck of a boat. See the 'Essential Psychedelic Guide' for details. And strictly speaking, DMT is vaporized not burned.

I think one can't go wrong being safe and sticking to 'natural' drugs, but you never know what you might be missing unless you at least _consider_ the alternatives.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in convincing anyone to do anything. I think this whole natural/synthetic debate is a false dualism that is a symptom of our alienation from nature, and worth looking at closely.

- A

[ February 21, 2003, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: armedia ]

[Charlie]

Armedia,

I stand corrected. It was actually DM Turner I was reading as well, that made the comments about DMT as a water spirit, not McKenna.