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View Full Version : Marijuana as/is an entheogen(!/?)


dogen
01-24-2003, 09:30 AM
i notice that a number of people report having used marijuana with powerful entheogens ranging from Salvia to DMT. i'm a newbie--and not only to this discussion forum--so i can't speak with a great deal of experiential authority. However, it strikes me that smoking a phatty while ingesting powerful alkaloids is somewhere between self-defeating and fool-hardy. On at least one thread, some were declaring that weed was itself a psychedelic--others were skeptical or at least unconvinced of that claim.

So, how about it? Presuming the definitions of psychedelics as drugs that "open the mind" and entheogens as drugs that "reveal the divine," what would you call ganja?

Forgive the navel-gazing that follows, but a conversation/debate that includes the kinds of details about set, setting, usage patterns, and perceived results i include below would, i hope teach us all something valuable.

The navel-gazing part: i have come to regard pot as a low-impact and ambiguous BO (of) TH experience, at best. i smoked pot briefly when i was in high school in the 70s and not again until the late 90s. Set and setting? In high school it was sneaking out to the woods with my buddies before class. This wasn't about mental exploration or spiritual growth; it was about getting a buzz on & identifying with a peer group that made us feel cool. Grass enhanced my sense of hearing and, to a lesser degree, my sight.

Flash forward to about 5.5 years ago. Set & setting? Very typical mid-life crisis and i'm ready to off myself. In my despair, i renew my acquaintance with ganja--big-time. i start smoking daily. Early on the setting is much like high school; i'm sneaking a toke in the car, outside when the soon-to-be-ex-wife & the kid aren't looking, in restrooms at concerts. The reasons aren't all that different either. i'm giving the finger to all the middle-class suburban pressures to conform that have been crushing me for-effin-ever. i'm trying to distance myself from a life and a wife i can't stand anymore. But i'm also self-consciously looking for spiritual truth.

Big discovery: Even the lamest bag is 20 times more powerful than any dope i could score in my teens 20 years before. But, the same effects on my sensorium: i really hear music for the first time in over a decade. It's no longer something i turn on in the background to make sure the silence doesn't get too deafening; now i go deep into the sound. Occasionally there are eyes-closed visuals. i gradually become less stressed, more empathic, more open to new experiences and ideas. A sense of wonder and delight slowly begin to pervade my life. Sex while high is, on a few memorable occasions, ego-shattering--a revelation of how thoroughly one can lose oneself in intimacy with another. i mention this because stoney sex is the only dramatically transformative experience i've had with marijuana--and, even so, the gift has only revealed itself a handful of times.

Life moves on & the crisis has passed. Despite the divorce, the kid and i are close. My goddess/lover & i get married in response to 9/11. My professional life blossoms in ways i'd long given up on. Now the set & setting is very domestic. Smoking up signals the transition between my working life & down time. i'm usually alone, impatiently waiting for the goddess to get off work at 11 p.m. i put work aside, put on comfy clothes, smoke a bowl, step outside to let the dog pee while i have a cig or a pipe, snap on the t.v. and slowly fade to black--often while spooning WAY too many calories down my throat.

At this point, i've smoked nearly everyday for 5.5 years. i'm no longer really, really, REALLY getting into a new cd. i'm no longer self-consciously walking into an altered state of consciousness. i'm substituting pot for a couple of after dinner drinks. It's my way of chilling out, getting a buzz, and insuring that i sleep like a stone all night long.

At this writing, i've smoked maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 2 months--socially--& don't see me ever returning to the almost daily thing. i'd come to notice that i was simply using pot to anesthetize myself from physical and pychical pain and have made a conscious decision to stop doing that. To mangle Daniel's elegant phrase, i want to feel the razor blades of life. i'm 44. Life is short. The world's pretty fucked up & becoming more so every day. We seem on an almost certain course for system crash. Life hurts & we shouldn't always try to mediate this fact with something pleasant. This is no time to be vege-ing out, comfortably numb while reruns of Law & Order play over and over.

In all, i think i've gained some insights, written some poems, seen better as a painter, and become a more empathic person through regular marijuana use. (That & i've formed some kind of empathic bond with plants and have become an avid gardener as a result.) But i now see all this as leading up to the present moment when i've heard a call to take a giant step forward spiritually. The thing i hear over and over again about entheogens like Salvia and psyilicibin is that these substances reveal levels of reality that the everyday mind only gets hints and whispers of. i notice that you can more or less tell pot on what terms you are willing to receieve its effects. That's not how it is with more powerful entheogens.

Anyway, i hope to see what others have to say about marijuana as part of or hindrance to the entheogenic experience.

sidecross
01-24-2003, 10:31 AM
Cannabis should not be looked down upon as a psychedelic substance. Its fault lies in the fact that good quality buds cost more per ounce than gold.

Terence McKenna recommended that cannabis used in solitude and darkness once a week in quantities that might suggest you have consumed too much could be a very strong psychedelic.

The problem that I have seen with psychedelic use is that many people dabble with the dosage. The dose of dried psilocybian mushrooms is 5 grams and/or about 60 grams of fresh mushrooms. LSD should be at least 250mcg.

dogen
01-25-2003, 02:21 AM
Sidecross: i'm not looking down on cannabis because i think it's a psychedelic. i'm questioning its value in psychedelic experimentation.

And what you say about mushroom dosages (60 grams!) is wildly at odds with what i've read on Erowid and the PF Tek folks say 2 grams of fresh shrooms is on a par with LSD for intensity. Can you be more specific about your experiences? What dosages have you tried? Mixed mushrooms & pot? Have you tried McKenna's suggestion? Any results to report? Inquiring minds want to know! ;)

sidecross
01-25-2003, 05:10 AM
Your research is lacking in thoroughness. You might seek out a copy of Psychedelics Encyclopedia by Peter Stafford. The following is quoted from part the book's psilocybian mushroom section:

"…Potency goes from virtually nothing to approximately 15mg. /gm of dry weight. The average is perhaps 3.0 mg./dry gm., amounting to about 0.03 percent of fresh mushrooms. Mushrooms are 90% water…"

"…When Sandoz first distributed psilocybian, the pills contained 2 gm. Each; it recommended four or five of these in conjunction with "psycholytic" psychotherapy…"

[ January 25, 2003, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: sidecross ]

Anita
01-25-2003, 05:34 AM
Don't y'all think proper dosages vary quite a bit according to bodyweight etc?
As far as marijane goes,I would definatly say it IS a "psychedelic" of sorts.The problem in my opinion is that it is overused.As with psilocyben and LSD an immunity is built up quickly and seem to hang around for quite a bit longer than say LSD.
That is not to say that it won't get you stoned,but not in a way that is truly astonishing.
From my own experience many years ago,it gave me quite a gift in starting to deal with some pretty godawful childhood abuse from a different perspective.It for one gave me the courage to start the grieving process,not only for myself but for the abusers as well.
As with all of these medicines,the gifts diminish with overuse,at least it seems that way to me.
Anita

Phil Thompson
01-27-2003, 07:08 AM
Personally i love smoking to chill out or get onto my music productions, sleep well, watch crap TV or get suck deep into a movie or listen to amazing music. I also meditate as often as i can, this also helps when i have had a smoke.

For me there are many benefits, although i am also aware that if i have a lot of chores to do then the best thing is not to have a smoke. Then look forward to getting on with things, the reward at the end is a smoke.

I am lucky in the way that i cannot stand tobacco at all. So my body is not asking for nicotine all the time.

I feel its the nicotine that makes smoking addictive. If you smoke pure grass then you only need to smoke it to chill out, focus, dance, walk... what ever you like.

So as Dodgen covered, from the time i began smoking, it is obvious when i look back now that from that point on, my thoughts steadily got deeper and deeper. I got more and more into spiritual stuff and started to feel more in harmony with nature needing more and more answers to questions.

As i make music for a living it also helps me connect with feelings within my body when i am writing stuff. I can get so stoned that i feel like i become part of my equipment and things fall into place with no effort at all. Sometimes and endless flood of ideas.... I have tried experimenting and not smoking, it is possible but you feel distant from the creation process.

So to me it is all down to the individual, there is no 'Norm'.. everyone is a unique case and make up. Its up to the individual mind to be in control and responsible for there actions.

So now on the the psychedelic side of it... this all depends on the actual plant that you are smoking. There are so many types of grass. For me when i smoke the best stuff that is very expensive then yes... i can see all sorts of visions and mind travel... surely this is the same as any psychedelic experience, only on a much more controlled subtle level.

K.J
01-27-2003, 03:13 PM
dogen: "So, how about it? Presuming the definitions of psychedelics as drugs that "open the mind" and entheogens as drugs that "reveal the divine," what would you call ganja?"

I would definitely call cannabis an entheogen. Granted, much more subtle than others; at least as cannabis is commonly used.

There are many different ways of using cannabis, and many different forms. The most powerful I have found is taking it orally. It can be very powerful when prepared correctly. There are also certain types of hash, and hash oil, which are very potent and could rival the powerful effects of a classic entheogen. Not to say the effects are similar, because they aren't.

But then again, who said it had to be potent to be considered an entheogen? Cannabis has definitely broken my head open...in a good way.

Jeremy

evlove
02-19-2003, 07:44 AM
Cannabis can be a useful and friendly ally, opening doors and widening views. These aspects can be completely missed by many, but that does not mean that they do not exist. Whether or not something is considered a psychedelic or entheogen has as much to do with the context and manner in which it is used as the altered state it produces.

(As a side note, the McKenna prescription of super high dose psychedelic experiences is not neccessarily the best approach for everyone. It reinforces the notion that your experience should be judged by the quantity of physical substance you put into your system as opposed to the level of insight that you found for yourself. Also, the psilocybin pills from Sandoz probably contained 2 mg each.)

[ February 19, 2003, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: evlove ]

Buzz
02-19-2003, 09:50 AM
dogen,
Back when I was doing a lot of LSD and Psilocybe, 20 to 30 years ago, marijuana was always, always a part of the ritual. Usually someone would fire one up within the first 30 minutes of ingestion. I always got a great boost from it, it always aided in the experience, at least for me. If you are new to pot I would warn you that it can be emotionally addicting, especially if you have dependence problems. But if you treat it with respect and don't overdo it the stuff can have a great value.

sidecross
02-19-2003, 10:39 AM
evolove writes:

"(As a side note, the McKenna prescription of super high dose psychedelic experiences is not neccessarily the best
approach for everyone. It reinforces the notion that your experience should be judged by the quantity of physical
substance you put into your system as opposed to the level of insight that you found for yourself. Also, the
psilocybin pills from Sandoz probably contained 2 mg each.)"

My error was in not fully quoting the passage. The dose of each Sandoz pill was equal to 2 gm. of the dried psilocybian mushroom, which would be equivalent to 4-8 mg. of psilocybian. 40 mg. then would be the high dose of Sandoz in pill form.

As I have posted elsewhere, no one has a monopoly what is best, but I do make a distinction between dabbling with psychedelics and doing deep exploration with psychedelics.