Recent twistedness

[Bandolino]

Hello all. Great book Daniel. I smoked DMT for the first time (I'm an old head and I've always wanted to try this Holy Grail of experiences). I want to report that the self-transforming-machine-elves are alive and well. (They said, "Peace Ya'll.")

[daniel]

thanks for the update.

[Halfglass]

Bandolino: Could you describe what they looked like?

[Bandolino]

It's tough. I would have to say that I saw these things but not really. I felt them, "heard" them. I believe they were real. I have come up on entities before on various chemicals. It might be like the "machines" you guys were talking about on the other thread, "Sophisticated machines" (until the thread turned, it was getting good).

[ November 18, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Bandolino ]

[Walkaway]

---
Can you be anything other than maddeningly vague?
---
Namaste,
Cliff

[Bandolino]

Sorry. Been away. I did metion that the thread about machines came close. They are heard. Seen as lights on a wall. Felt like being watched. There is also the feeling of being in their place/environment/realm. (Seems vague is what you get with these things.)

[jezebelle]

Hurray for the oldsters still at it!

Just the other day, for the first time, I awoke up "in the matrix" (no drugs involved)
usually I observe it from a distance but this time I was in it. progess?
My thought as it was fading, was that it is my receiver station for all the intersecting parts of self in (my) particular hologram

Along the dream/machine thing, I went to a movie, sat down and playing on the screen was eternity! For me the visual was an ungulating mandella of colors and shapes that interacted with you. I had to walk out after 3 min. It was too intense.

[Halfglass]

Jezebelle: Can you tell more? Describe the machines? How did you intuit that this matrix is of the self, and not Other? (BTW, yer book's been mailed.)

[daniel]

Hi Jezebelle,

We have been having similar or parallel experiences. A few weeks ago, while sleeping on a hammock in a boat headed deep into the Amazon jungle in Brazil, I awoke from a dream in which I felt I was experiencing two matrices - the "finite realm" of linear time, and the timeless realm of the archetypes -as vibrational patterns or fields constantly exchanging energies between them. This experience was more or less beyond language, but this one sentence was resonating loudly in my head:

"WHAT MANIFESTS OUTWARD FROM THE GROUND OF BEING IS FREEDOM IN TIME, AND FREEDOM FROM TIME."

Which is very Gebserian, though a little step forward, I think.

[daniel]

My understanding now about what is going on in the world is this:

Human consciousness is in the process of self-organizing to a higher state - a higher state of being and knowing. The destruction and chaos are simply necessary parts of the process - the projection of the "shadow" of the psyche into material form, so it can be reintegrated by those who are ready to make the transition.

I believe that in ten or fifteen years, we will be living in utopia, in a new Golden Age.

The Kali Yuga or the Golden Age are ultimately initiatory states, or states of mind. When you eliminate fear and attachment, when you self-liberate, you are immediately living in the Golden Age. When enough people cross the threshold into this understanding, the Kali Yuga will end.

[Buzz]

Daniel,

I hope you are right but I fear it may be a wait of some thousands of years before a critical mass of Utopia overtakes the world, even if some are totally enlightened overnight, it is not so easy to convince the Nascar crowd (people who can not think for themselves).But as I began, I hope you are right.

[daniel]

Buzz,

Try to go beyond hope - to the point where you know for yourself that this is true.

[gone]

Daniel, *everyone* goes, ‘deep into the Amazon jungle.’ I find going just a little way in to the Amazon jungle far more stimulating ;)

[Em]

Daniel,

Buzz (again) makes a good point.

Your, and anyone else's conviction will only be worth anything when validated by reality - i.e. we'll believe it when we see it.

This isn't to say that you haven't been illuminated; simply that the nature of reality is a bit, well, complex. Opaque. Shrouded in mystery. Etc. And 'realisations' are two-a-penny'. Sometimes they are right.

There is also seemingly a desperation to unravel the wonder and terror of being human, which pushes us to seek explanations and definitive statements of our existence. This makes us dangerously egocentric - there is so much more to Everything than the question of who or what WE are. Considerably bigger players than humans are involved - do we know their designs?

Tread carefully; and best of luck with whatever steps you take. smile.gif

[gone]

I think we can explore the WE on occasion without becoming too egocentric if we consider We to be a reflection of the Source. In this way discovering who WE are can be a good approximation of discovering the reality of all things, even those which transcend the human, perhaps even stretching into metaphors of the unknowable.

[tesseract]

What I am reading between Daniel's words is not a commitment to some wishful theory, but a declaration that the urgency underlying our condition is nothing more than a collective figment. Everyone on this planet is aware of the imminent change upon us, and we have expressed that in a zillion different ways depending on our particular life situation. Everything is as it should be, and you can read into it whatever you want.

[ December 12, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: tesseract ]

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by daniel:
I believe that in ten or fifteen years, we will be living in utopia, in a new Golden Age.What will this utopia will look like? How will society be organized so it's no longer destroying the planet?

[Em]

Assumptions are vital, particularly when we take the position that we are a reflection of the Source (Gelfer).

In an Infinity of the Known, Unknown, and Unknowable, that makes us potentially a very small reflection indeed - perhaps hardly discernible. Naturally enough, to us we are pretty enormous, which is as it should be; so long as we also remember to balance our self-absorption with an acknowledment of that enormity out there.

By the way, in the interests of balance (and certainly not popularity!): we've heard a lot from the 'light' side about the forthcoming Eden. But doesn't the 'dark' side have anything to say about the future; like we're due for a bit of a severe downturn? Mankind becoming even more materialistic, and less spiritual?
Or are the devillish ones quietly beavering away in the undergrowth, to make it a reality?

I'm only asking 'cos I really, really don't know. smile.gif

[gone]

Em, ‘In an Infinity of the Known, Unknown, and Unknowable, [I like that line, is it yours?] that makes us potentially a very small reflection indeed - perhaps hardly discernible.’ This is only the case when we don’t realise our Godly nature. It’s all there to be found – the fact that we generally do not see it does not mean it is not there to be seen.

[jezebelle]

catching up, I turn around and:
halfglass asks (I got the fab bk) How did you intuit that this matrix is of the self, and not Other?
good question, what is the "other" but "us" too.
pershaps in the act of wistnessing, the binding is set

daniel says "Human consciousness is in the process of self-organizing to a higher state"
in a 3waytrinitybodyfashion so I understand. I like steiner here.
mathematically it must exponeate.

perhaps we each see our own version, but share a common gestalt of the already-realized-similarity

curving webs as we intersect each other, space is bent

fear not, nothing is ever "really" lost.

of course chemistry is everything.
later/j

[daniel]

I think Tesseract is getting what I am saying, though I am not entirely sure.

Em, I have replies to some of your comments below:

Em: "Your, and anyone else's conviction will only be worth anything when validated by reality - i.e. we'll believe it when we see it."

You are assuming there is a solid "reality" that can be "validated." I am suggesting that "reality" is a projection of the mind - you constantly draw energies to you that manifest in the form of seemingly solid beings, but you can change the manifestation through concentrated will and understanding. Do you want to live in the Golden Age or the Kali Yuga? Most of us, at least too much of the time, prefer to linger in Hell Realms or Hungry Ghost Realms - for instance, almost everyone on the "Left" have a kind of hysteric fascination with terror, torture, abuse of power, evil. By focusing singlemindedly on those areas, you give them more strength - you help them to manifest.
What if "reality" really is "maya," illusion? Then the more you self-liberate, the more you bring liberation and freedom into this reality - because the "Earth Plane" is somewhat dense (though getting less dense as we approach 2012), this has to be done in stages, sometimes slowly but I would say (once again judging from my own experience) it is now picking up speed.

As the Hindu dude puts it in "I Am That": "The world and the Self are perfect. It is only your attitude that is faulty and needs adjustment." Or John Perkins: "The world is as you dream it." What if this is literally true? I can only say that such a hypothesis is increasingly supported by my lived experience.

Em: "... the nature of reality is a bit, well, complex. Opaque. Shrouded in mystery."

Em, I suggest you read Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom. Thinking, and what Steiner calls "moral imaginations," are an active part in the creation of reality - we begin to make the world when we take responsibility for our own manifestation. I welcome mystery and opacity - how boring things would be otherwise.

Em: "Considerably bigger players than humans are involved - do we know their designs?"

Well, I know I have been thrown here, into this form, and that as I move toward the "light," as I understand it, my life continues to exponentially improve, my consciousness to intensify, my heart to expand. So I feel increasingly confident in considering the Creator Spirit to be beautifully benificient, and working actively for us when we turn to Him. I agree with what Mr. Iboga told me at our last meeting: "Everything is safe in God's hands."

[daniel]

dragonfly: "What will this utopia will look like? How will society be organized so it's no longer destroying the planet?"

The simple answer to this is that what now manifests in this world is the individual's failure to take responsibility. When each takes responsibility for all, then the whole will be maintained in perfect harmony.

Em: "doesn't the 'dark' side have anything to say about the future; like we're due for a bit of a severe downturn?"

I hear what the "dark side" has to say about the future every time I pick up a newspaper. I am finished with that fable. It is the misery muzak, the shadow projection, of a lower vibration of consciousness. It has almost no relationship to our true, and new, situation.

[jezebelle]

as daniel expresses, "a lower vibration of consciousness. It has almost no relationship to our true, and new, situation"

that's it right there, the nutshell
by its true recognition, it becomes so.

even in our times.

[Halfglass]

I believe in Daniel's point of view because I've seen/experienced the rushing concentration of minds (firsthand). I wasn't going to share this but: One night I was tripping in my room and the Earthmind? started telling me about the nature of the end/change. It showed me something--it took over my thoughts. Suddenly I believed that the moment was here, that the streets would be filled with people in a few minutes. I sepped outside and thought "I'll be the first one in the world to call out!" And I did (at three in the morning). "Hello, I understand!" ....silence. A second of confusion and IT said "This is how we'll do it." Then on the lawn (no shit) a purple flamelike flash from out of the ground! With a sound "blatzzz!" The Earth talked. There I told it for what it's worth.

[ December 13, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[jezebelle]

we are like fleas riding on the back of earth

a wonderous areina, passing through birth to death
yet somehow one
with the other

[Charlie]

Okay, great. A Utopia in 2012. What does that exactly mean? Does that mean that people will no longer waste away to AIDs, or perish of malaria, or be slaughtered like sheep in their own villages? Or will it mean that it won’t matter anymore because those people will be reaching nirvana--“becoming one with the atom bomb”?

Come on, folks, I think suffering is a very real thing, not metaphysical. Perhaps I need to go to India to understand the levels of being better, but I think small children dying has no noble Karma attached to it; there aren't a helluva lot of glib Zen sayings about that.

“Everything is always as it has been, nothing needs to change”. From the earth’s point of view, certainly. We're are just a fucking blink here, and if we disappear, the earth will heal itself in less than a half-million years—which is just another blink. IF somehow, the planets align themselves at the end of this 26,000 year cycle in 2012, and IF somehow that cast some light on us, and brings a more harmonic, cosmic consciousness, well, I’m all for it. But will that light include everyone?

[tesseract]

Originally posted by Charlie:
[QB]Okay, great. A Utopia in 2012. What does that exactly mean? Does that mean that people will no longer waste away to AIDs, or perish of malaria, or be slaughtered like sheep in their own villages? Or will it mean that it won’t matter anymore because those people will be reaching nirvana--“becoming one with the atom bomb”?

Come on, folks, I think suffering is a very real thing, not metaphysical. Perhaps I need to go to India to understand the levels of being better, but I think small children dying has no noble Karma attached to it; there aren't a helluva lot of glib Zen sayings about that.If enough people could truly realize that death is not a catasrophy, that it's part of our process as planetary phenomena, all that will definitely change; that's how I see "utopia". This is something very fundemental that the global community does not understand, or is at least unwilling to submit to.

Yes, suffering is very real, just as real as ecstasy...one might even say that at the core, they are the very same thing, only you provide the context. Either we can learn to suffer and die artfully, or we can continue to go down spitting and hissing in a clumsy struggle.

Concerning fatal diseases and such, much of that suffering issues from the stigma attached to "sickness" rather than the physical agony it causes. If we, as a collective, did not view death as the "horrible end" that must be averted at all costs, and instead prepared the terminally ill through encouragement and rejoicing for their 'transformation', their suffering would take on a whole new context and very much exhibit a "noble karma" as you put it.

[ December 14, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: tesseract ]

[Buzz]

I'll have to agree with Daniel that "reality" is flexible and an agreed upon condition. Agreed upon by the Mindcloud (Jungian collective unconscious) that governs us. A critical mass capable of changing that agreed upon reality?

So, Halfglass, a purple or "gay" flame coming out of the earth is going to change everything. Lets hope that Jerry Falewell doesn't get a hold of this. Humor aside though, spirits often if not always "speak" in symbolic gestures. Done any pondering on what this poetic vision might mean?

[daniel]

Hi Charlie,

Once again, you have to try to understand the full model of what I am trying to say (for some different articulations, check out Arguelles' Time and the Technosphere, Gebser's The Ever Present Origin, and Steiner's Outline of Esoteric Science).

Steiner: "The universe is entirely made up of beings in different states of consciousness." Material is densified spirit. Arguelles/De Chardin: What happens in the 2012 is the conscious activation of the Noosphere, the thought envelope around the planet. The Noosphere has been mediated, until now, by various levels and forms of higher consciousnesses (for instance, for the Aboriginals, the "Dreamtime Ancestors."). In 2012, humans attain adulthood, and are able to take over their own planet's operation - on all levels, from the cellular to the molecular.

More later...

[Halfglass]

Buzz: You can see why I was reluctant to share that one. What can I say? It was the oddest thing because I wasn't in-trance. I think it was: "Hello!" back.

[Em]

Cheers, Gelfer.
The line is mine, but, sadly, the concepts are not. I am about as original as a photocopy!

You still don't get the scale of the Existence. The Source is everywhere, by definition, and we are part of it. Unfortunately the human part of the Source is too insignificant to move the whole, so we are pretty much left to our own devices - and to the devices of those who keep us company in this part of the forest. So praying to the Source - God, to you good altar boys smile.gif - is a waste of time - the Source is already engaged with the rest of itself. However, SOMETHING will answer your prayers, SOMETIMES. But it won't be the Source. Let's pray its friendly...

[gone]

There’s a place for us to have to agree to disagree. I think humanity at its best is capable of reflecting the majority of the Source. I’m not particularly fussed about bringing prayer into the equation, but if I were it would probably be to focus on hearing more than asking. In this respect prayers aren’t answered at all, unless it is with the grace to hear what is already there.

Your statements like, ‘You still don't get the scale of the Existence’ kind of amuse me. You’re one of the more sure-of-themselves posters here. I’ll refrain from ending that with a winky smiley as I’ve yet to meet someone who was really sure of themselves who wasn’t several nervous breakdowns short of real self-awareness. Of course, you could be the first.

[ December 14, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: gelfer ]

[Em]

Daniel,

You are getting almost messianic! with your insistence on happy endings.

Charlie's musings are certainly true, as far as they go, and well worth a second thought.

You raise too many complex issues for me to go into right now - not enough time. So I'll pick just one-ish, and see where that leads. You said:

"I agree with what Mr. Iboga told me at our last meeting: "Everything is safe in God's hands."

I would say that is a meaningless load of horse manure (whilst completely accepting your sincerity of conviction).

What is Mr. Iboga?
For whose God does it speak?
What is its knowledge and understanding of God?
With what and whose authority does it make such statements?
What proof is on offer?
Is everything 'safe' for God?
For us?
For Mr.Iboga?
What if we aren't in God's hands?
What is its definition of 'safe'?

I hate to say it, but Mr. Iboga is making such a 'christian' statement, that it could be a priest! No doubt its kind was making such assertions 2000 years ago, with equal effect - none!

These beings are tricky customers. It must be very flattering to have Mr. Iboga confiding the fate of the world to a seeker. I would caution the psychonaut to understand themselves very well before taking any 'revelations' at face value.

As to the nature of reality - how do you validate it? As a simple person, I can only employ my senses, and realise that I have a very tenuous hold on it. But at the same time I have to use what I've got, and make the best of it. Otherwise I'll have to start asking myself if 'maya/illusion' is really just an illusion designed to make us think that everything is just an illusion...

Please don't take any of this personally - I'm just debating . smile.gif

[Em]

You're right, Gelfer, we'll have to agree to disagree, though I find it a bit difficult to see how anyone who has some comprehension of the enormity of the known universe could think that humanity, in any way, shape or form could be in the majority. I think it takes 'faith' to sustain such a view - and I absolutely believe that 'belief' is a second-hand conviction, and therefore worthless!!! :D

As for being sure of myself - don't be fooled by appearances. I'm only reasonably sure of the underlying logic of my arguments at any one point in time. When my knowledge/understanding changes, so does my underpinning logic. But until that happens, I flaunt my own delusions with what I hope is reasoned firmness.

By the way, am I the only one exhibiting such a trait???

Not quite sure I understood your reference to all those nervous breakdowns, but I'm certain I will, just as soon as I have one.
Strangely enough, a friend who's had a nervous breakdown understands me much better now...
its a strange world all right. smile.gif

[gone]

‘…a friend who's had a nervous breakdown understands me much better now.’ You are indeed the constant and everything else a variable.

No you’re not the only one to exhibit such a trait, but there is actually a difference between disagreeing with someone and telling them that they’re wrong, though I suspect your logic will say that isn’t so.

Logic, I remember that.

[ December 14, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: gelfer ]

[jezebelle]

the center of all proballities is you, we move
each to his own
I'm sure our arena won't go away,
I choose a shift, easy-like . . .
perhaps we will see our aliens
or angels, or ancestors
each to his type, tribe,
purple fire,
even the set actions are enfolding anew
End times of the big fork, expanding, again.

[gone]

‘I had long ago decided that there were two types of people who believed in Universal Spirit – those who were not too bright (e.g. Oral Roberts), and those who were extremely bright (e.g. Einstein). Those in between made it a point of “intellectual” merit not to believe in God, or anything transrational for that matter.’ - Ken ‘Ever Present Witness’ Wilber.

[JumpSturdy]

Let's suppose that God/Source/Ground of Being /Your Choice of Epithet is the ultimate solipsist and that the one critical attribute that we share as emanations of the divine--in the form of blessing/curse--is that very solipsism. Perhaps, as 'God's little brats," we need to grow into it, warts and all, until we can eventually let go of "Daddy's" hand.

In the meantime, we can toddle along with our philosophies, religions, psychoactive lollipops,etc. well enough.

Thanks to all for their amazing posts! To quote Tim Curry, "Very stimulating!'

[daniel]

Charley wrote: "I think suffering is a very real thing, not metaphysical... I think small children dying has no noble Karma attached to it; there aren't a helluva lot of glib Zen sayings about that."

Either you accept the workings of karma or you don't. If there is karma, then even the suffering and death of small children has to be understood in those terms - in the terms of vast cycles of beings evolving toward higher levels of consciousness and enlightenment. From our human perspective, especially the Western individualistic perspective, it is obviously very difficult to accept that karma is
a fact of the cosmic order. However, I have from my own experience been shown evidence of its reality, and I accept that it is the case. This does not dull my compassion or my desire to see suffering end. I am incapable of fully understanding the karmic necessity of allowing the genocide of indigenous people, the Jewish Holocaust, the deaths of innocents in the Iraq War, or the deaths of 9-11. Yet I recognize that there are levels of cosmic intelligence that are guiding these processes, and as I accept that the ultimate workings of the universe are benevolent, I realize that there are necessities for these events that are beyond my comprehension - both on the planetary or noospheric level, and on the level of the karmic development of those individuals who face such tragic fates.

Charley writes: “Everything is always as it has been, nothing needs to change”. From the earth’s point of view, certainly. We're are just a fucking blink here, and if we disappear, the earth will heal itself in less than a half-million years—which is just another blink."

You make this statement with such anguished confidence, but how do you really know that it is the case? Isn't it true that this model is just what you have received from the materialist science view of reality - which is full of internal contradictions and has been essentially disproved by quantum physics? In fact, everything is in a constant state of change (the observer changes the nature of the observed). Once again, I suggest a close reading of Rudolf Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom for a different - a more accurate - model of what is going on.

What if the evolution of consciousness is actually the purpose and essence of the entire situation we are in? I believe that what we are now experiencing as the accelerated evolution of technology is actually part of this other process: The transition between two forms of human consciousness, and two planetary states. Please try to mull over this idea for a little while before reacting to it.

Charley: "IF somehow, the planets align themselves at the end of this 26,000 year cycle in 2012, and IF somehow that cast some light on us, and brings a more harmonic, cosmic consciousness, well, I’m all for it. But will that light include everyone?"

It is, to my way of thinking, completely logical that the evolution of human consciousness is synchronized and related to the movements of the planets and stars and the energies that they emit. Move the atoms around in a molecule and you create a new compound. I am currently reading May Cosmogenesis 2012 by John Major Jenkins, and he presents this thesis with stellar clarity. The Ancients may have had knowledge of the connection between stellar configurations and human consciousness that we moderns completely lost, and people like Jenkins are now regaining.

You ask "Will that light include everyone?" It is not for us to know the answer to that question yet. It seems unlikely that it will include everyone. It may be a question of karma - remembering that karma represents the accrual of negative and positive thoughts and actions from previous lives. It may be that consciously and karmically, not all humans are currently ready to make the transition to the new consciousness structure. However, of course, I hope that is not the case. As I have said before, I feel there is a trap in being concerned with the "masses" as it pins you into the "deficient" materialist "mental rational" perspective - what Guenon called "the reign of quantity." My concern is with individuals and their potential for liberation, not with masses.

One aspect of the "new consciousness structure," as I am continually trying to understand it, is a different relationship to the Ego. If we establish for ourselves the reality of the "Divine presence" or of numerous levels of being beyond and behind the material plane, then the Ego becomes a bit lighter and more transparent. As humans (evolving according to Steiner to become the tenth spiritual hierarchy, "the spirits of freedom"), we are still engaged in carving out a paradoxical zone of freedom, but this will take place under different parameters, at a higher level of responsibility and awareness.

[daniel]

Em writes: "So praying to the Source - God, to you good altar boys - is a waste of time - the Source is already engaged with the rest of itself."

I think that you don’t understand the nature of prayer – the nature of devotion (what Hindus call bhakti). My perspective is that devotion and love are vibrational frequencies that maintain the structure of reality. Without love and devotion – prayer being one way of expressing this - reality begins to decay and dissolute, as it has in the modern West. Prayer is not the act of stupid losers who believe in some fake God, but a way of concentrating energy, opening the heart, and raising one's vibration. (You might also look at the scientific studies which have demonstrated the power of prayer for remote healing).

Em writes: "You are getting almost messianic! with your insistence on happy endings."

If reality is maya, illusion, manifested by karma and consciousness, then how we direct our thoughts and consciousnesses can be guaranteed to have a direct and highly significant effect on the future that we will call into being. I am not insistent on "happy endings." I do not believe that the post 2012 utopia will be a "happy ending." I think that it will be a "happy beginning" - the birth of humanity into full consciousness and galactic citizenship. From there, there will be much to learn and to enjoy.

Em writes: " "Everything is safe in God's hands." I would say that is a meaningless load of horse manure (whilst completely accepting your sincerity of conviction)."

First of all, I would suggest that you examine the roots of your own hostility in your own neurotic complexes. Before dismissing what I have to say as shit, perhaps you should consider the efforts I have made, starting from a skeptical and "pseudo-rational" perspective like yours, to experientially discover and establish my own view on reality. This has included overcoming vast amounts of cynicism and hostility from people who think they know what they are talking about – but in actual fact have done almost no real work to validate their conclusions. English people seem especially prone to the condition of armchair certainty.

If you bothered to read my book, you might recognize that I have good reasons to take the perspective of iboga quite seriously. Almost everyone I know who has experienced iboga has been shown extremely accurate and helpful holograms of their past life journeys. Some of have ended horrifyingly destructive addictions through use of iboga. A million people in Gabon consider iboga a powerful and benevolent guiding spiritual entity. Also, many people I know have been shown prophetic glances into their future – and in many cases, what they have been shown has come to pass.

Before that iboga vision, I rarely considered "God" in such terms – the word hardly appears in my book. All I can say with certainty is that receiving that answer has been good for me. I no longer fear the current fear-driven mania taking place in this accursed nation of Bushistan. I accept the possibility that other forces are at work – and, as I said above, what is actually going on is the self-organization of human consciousness to a higher level of being and knowing, a process which is simultaneously the "Apocalypse" of the old consciousness and the old mentality.

[Em]

Daniel,

Some misunderstanding.

In no way do I say or mean that you talk "shit". The "horse manure" reference was to Mr. Iboga's statement, which, for the time being still stands - certainly until my questions are satisfactorily answered.

Furthermore, I have a great deal of respect for your efforts to experience reality/maya in various direct ways. I would just add a cautionary note by pointing out that you are relatively inexperienced, and the journey is an endless one. What you defend/assert with such vehemence now, may well change with passsage of time, and greater understanding. Or not.

As for my neuroses, yes, life and its funny little ways do make me a bit nervous from time to time. I've already said that my approach is to assess deeds, not words, and deeds show that all the many fine words 'spoken' in the past and present haven't really changed anything. Mr. Iboga could have been saying all these things 2000 years ago, with equal effect - none.

Showing people their past (lives) is a neat trick - it may be true, but then I get all neurotic and remember "Bladerunner". I tend to accept that something out there is affecting our senses, and is capable of manipulating our perception, and hence our 'reality'.

Briefly, if there are such powerful, wise and altruistic beings out there, they could have helped humanity and other sentient beings far more effectively than telling them to 'evolve'. You can say the same to a cow, but it will be a little while yet before it ceases to be McDonald's favourite snack. And, whilst accepting full responsibility for myself, and my low evolutionary attainment, and being prepared to fight for more 'power', I still consider us all to be just like the cow - 'snacks' for those with greater power/awareness. I accept, without accepting, my limitations, and try to struggle for 'power/enlightenment'. But I just don't buy all the "you are a god, but you just haven't woken up to the realisation yet" clap-trap, nor do I accept responsibility for the state of this, or any other world - I had no hand in forming this reality, at least not in any fundamental way.

So these are some of my neuroses. I still say what I say not to be offensive or dismissive, but rather to try and clarify the (to me) very muddy waters. Of course, at the end of the day, all that will mattter is how we individually hold up to what awaits us.

And you are so right about the 'armchair warriors' Brits. Its been a while since they had triumphs like Vietnam, or produced a visionary like Bush. And on the spiritual front, there's no-one to touch David Blaine. Or Oprah, for that matter. I'm so grateful to my karma for not making me an Englishman. smile.gif

[jezebelle]

It's a dilemma, the parasite mind.
Do we have the courage to jump off the abscess, and quiet the demons, of non-love, "nothing ever changes, I can't do it, I still smoke cigarettes,"
In my area of hassles, when I change myself, and
do only my part, only then does it get better.
I hate that part. Very bruttle.
I want to blame someone, who said it came with directions.
Freedom to folly.

[daniel]

Em,

I agree that you are in "muddy waters." You seem trapped halfway between a truly esoteric (mystical or Gnostic) understanding, and a materialistic perspective, hence your views seem incoherent. It may be that you have not studied enough, thought enough, or experienced enough. You may know which it is. I would recommend that you try iboga for yourself, so that you have a basis for judgment.

As for the existence of "powerful, wise and altruistic beings out there", try to think it through a bit. If such entities exist, and wanted to help us with our evolution, they could not simply hand us higher consciousness on a platter. In that case, it would be of no value. The situation must be such that we exercise free will to make our own choices whether or not to progress. Hence, the ambience of fear surrounding the psychedelic experience.

You write that "deeds show that all the many fine words 'spoken' in the past and present haven't really changed anything. Mr. Iboga could have been saying all these things 2000 years ago, with equal effect - none." You have absolutely no basis to make this comment. As a matter of fact, 2000 years ago, Christ did say all these things - and the effect was world-transformative. Christ was also well aware that there were going to be extremely negative consequences of his dispensation - that is why he said he came not to bring peace but a sword. He could not have been more accurate.

"Showing people their past (lives) is a neat trick - it may be true, but then I get all neurotic and remember "Bladerunner"." The only answer for you is to have the experience for yourself, and then make your judgments.

You continue: "I tend to accept that something out there is affecting our senses, and is capable of manipulating our perception, and hence our 'reality'." Go further with this idea - go all the way with it in fact - and what conclusions could you draw? As I have been saying, following Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom, thought cocreates reality. Or as McKenna put it, the universe is made of language. "In the beginning was the Logos."

My perspective is that we are not on the threshold of becoming Gods but becoming, for the first time, truly human - by achieving a form of consciousness that integrates materialism and spirituality (the goal of Western alchemy is to integrate, or reconcile, spirit and matter). And to be truly human is to take responsibility for the entire planetary environment. When we have made this shift, we will no longer be, as you define it, "cows."

As for my experience or "inexperience," you have little basis to judge.

[gone]

jezebelle, your past couple of posts have positioned themselves like the chorus in a Greek tragedy. I’ll picture you typing them in robes.

[jezebelle]

such a polarity. You think?
just trying to put a finger on how it applies to the individual in the daily process
to be in the alpha state of love or readiness to wittness the divine, is a "warrior stance"
how does one talk of something bigger than language?
Such is the fun of this forum, nevertheless.
forgive my tragic obtuseness.

[gone]

Not so much polarity as interluding commentary.

[jezebelle]

oops.
I'd wish you'd be more specific about which interludes

[Em]

Daniel,

My own waters are relatively calm and clear. I know my own mind pretty well. However, I certainly haven't studied, thought, or experienced enough - and I don't expect I ever will. As for trying Mr. Iboga - when someone tells me to leave it all in the hands of God, I run for the hills. I'm just funny that way.

Not being very bright or spiritually advanced, I shudder at the thought of having to experience some of the less disgusting things this world has to offer, as a way of attaining higher consciousness. When my mind comes to the more disgusting things, it cannot linger there for more than a very short while. Yet someone like Mr. Iboga will tell me that its good for me. All part of evolving. True, all that nastiness has been going on for millennia, but we are all exceptionally thick, and just don't want to learn. And so we will have to keep suffering, together with our dumb brothers with four legs, feathers, scales, etc., until we realise that it is actually WE who are responsible for everything, and all we have to do to make it better is to accept our culpability, adjust out spiritual sights, and hey presto, the Golden Age will be upon us. At that stage, of course, we will be able to talk to the great white shark and explain to it that we got it wrong when we designed it to be the most complete killing machine, and that it should now munch on kelp; likewise, we will convince the lion to lie down with the lamb, but this time without eating it; and while we are at it, we'll have a gentle word with the black hole in the centre of the galaxy, and show it the error of its blindly destructive ways, and get it to turn itself into another sun, so it can better illuminate our elevated nature!!! Etc.

To put it another way - would you, as a father, put your child(ren) through the horrors of this life, so that they could spiritually evolve? To be tortured, physically, mentally and emotionally, to watch, helplessly, others go through the same experiences; to die? Time and time again?

Yet this is what Mr. Iboga and his ilk prescribe. And not content with that, they also tell you that its all your fault anyway, and only you have the power to get out of it.

BOLLOCKS!!!

Its like telling that chimp in the vivisection lab that he's out of there just as soon as he evolves into a human. Meantime, think of the torture as an opportunity to advance spiritually.

Long ago I identified the central issue in my life, if not in yours - the much-discussed, but hardly ever understood idea of FREE WILL.
My definition of it is simple - I have 'free will' when I am omniscient, and omnipotent. Until then, and this is my current situation, I am more or less blindly groping for scraps of knowledge which will impart scraps of power. In that endeavour I am handicapped by other entities whose interests, for whatever reason, are inimical to mine; and aided by other entities sympathetic to my existence. Because I accept the concept of a 'humble warrior', I accept that I will have to struggle to attain wisdom and power. What I DO NOT accept is responsibility without power, or arrangements that I've had no say in formulating. That rules out gods, and anything else that prescribes a future for me which I haven't been consulted about, and imposes it on me, whether I want it or not, and then tells me that its all my own fault anyway.

My paranoid, unevolved, materialistic side then emerges to say that the damned critter has an interest in keeping me docile, and feeling guilty. Just like in the Matrix. And various others.

Incidentally, Mr. Iboga may be totally sincere in its beliefs and attitudes, however misguided some of them may be. Most of those guys are just like us guys when it comes to being screwed up - they may mean well, but they don't know the half of it.

And whatever Christ, if he existed, said 2000 years ago was hardly earth-shattering: the Buddha had said it much better 500 hundred years earlier, and any number of others before him. And since.

These are some of my considered views, which will endure until I see the error of my ways.

It is unfortunate that sometimes exchange of thoughts becomes a battle of wills - you think that I've misrepresented you; and I think you've totally misunderstood me; and we are off into a spiral of assertions and rebuttals. I don't want to go down that cul-de-sac. So know that I respect your journey, even if I sometimes disagree with some of your observations along the route. I don't know who is right, and I'm not sure that any of us ever will find out.

The bottom line is that we are all in the same boat; and I wish you, and all who sail in it, bon voyage. smile.gif

[daniel]

You start to bore me.

[jezebelle]

going back abit
gef, I'll try to be more articulate
Daniel amazing insight between the sacred geometry matrix and the ever evolving "I" matrix
I wonder if is a bi-cameral break through between the 2 hemisphere's of the brain
also your statement suggests that is a function of our perception in this dimension
gotta go do life

[jezebelle]

going back abit
(gef, I'll try to be more articulate)

Daniel,
amazing insight between the sacred geometry matrix and the ever evolving "I" matrix
I wonder if is a bi-cameral break through between the 2 hemisphere's of the brain
also it suggests that time is a function of our perception
I still wonder where the unmanifest intends itself into being
Hawaian spirituality says that our wishes or prayers are not felt or intended enough by our higher self from the lower self, that's why we can't manifest what we want.
perhaps in true perception, time does not exist

[Charlie]

Daniel writes:

“Isn't it true that this model is just what you have received from the materialist science view of reality - which is full of internal contradictions and has been essentially disproved by quantum physics? In fact, everything is in a constant state of change (the observer changes the nature of the observed).”

Actually, my model for the universe is based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead—which states that the universe is constantly expanding and contracting, and exists in infinite time, with no beginning or end. The materialist science viewpoint is the Big Bang, which never made any sense to me.

“Once again, I suggest a close reading of Rudolf Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom for a different - a more accurate - model of what is going on.”

I do intend to read Steiner; thank you for the suggestion.

“What if the evolution of consciousness is actually the purpose and essence of the entire situation we are in?”

There are certainly cause-and-effect circumstances that can change the global mind—e.g., although Bush got his little war in the end, the worldwide peace marches that occurred were perhaps the greatest incident every recorded in humanity where mass numbers of people turned simultaneously towards the positive vibration of peace…

Question: Can a global consciousness accelerate to the point where it pushes someone like G.W. Bush to see the light?

"I believe that what we are now experiencing as the accelerated evolution of technology is actually part of this other process: The transition between two forms of human consciousness, and two planetary states.”

This is an interesting idea, but it needs to be embellished…are you referring to technological evolution as:
--A purely communicational level (ie, the internet);
--A potentially symbiotic relationship (wind, solar energy);
--Or technology as a whole, which can include potentially destructive elements (genetic food engineering)?

In other words, are you referring to consciousness and technology as polar-opposite states, which upon terminal meltdown, will propel conscious higher; or as elements that can come together and give birth to a Spiritual Whole, greater than its individual parts?

In a later post you mention the integration of materialism and spirituality. According to most Eastern religions, this is simply not possible. But, perhaps again, those religions were not around 26,000 years ago.

[jezebelle]

damm cats jumping from screenbox to scanner, via keyboard

[Halfglass]

I am reminded of an argument I had with an old Christian guy, he thought Pat Benetar was sinful because she was a feminist and, oh bother! Nevermind. Funny stuff here.... (In one sense, of course there's much heart laid down too.)

[ December 16, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[Scylla]

Jezebel writes:
"Hawaian spirituality says that our wishes or prayers are not felt or intended enough by our higher self from the lower self, that's why we can't manifest what we want."

We have the capacity to manifest what we want
and I've done it many times. I've only written
one review of a book on Amazon.com because the one
I reviewed (along with a Lot of spiritual practice) has changed my whole life. If you can
accept what is given you in this book, and start
with whatever you need and desire most, it will,
it Must manifest. You can buy it used on Amazon
for $4. For an understanding of how and why it
is so effective you need books like the Kybalion
and The Creative Principle by Thomas Troward,
but all you really need is Seedtime and Harvest
by Neville.
If

[Scylla]

Jezebel writes:
"Hawaian spirituality says that our wishes or prayers are not felt or intended enough by our higher self from the lower self, that's why we can't manifest what we want."

We have the capacity to manifest what we want
and I've done it many times. I've only written
one review of a book on Amazon.com because the one
I reviewed (along with a Lot of spiritual practice) has changed my whole life. If you can
accept what is given you in this book, and start
with whatever you need and desire most, it will,
it Must manifest. You can buy it used on Amazon
for $4. For an understanding of how and why it
is so effective you need books like the Kybalion
and The Creative Principle by Thomas Troward,
but all you really need is Seedtime and Harvest
by Neville.
If interested you'll find my review at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875165575/qid=1071634575/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4278169-1555123?v=glance&s=books
It's a Christmas present for anyone who chooses
to receive it. Magic Is afoot--give it a chance.

[Scylla]

Daniel: don't know what happened, I seem to have
posted the same thing twice. If you can, would
you delete the first one and leave the second?

[daniel]

Em writes: "are you referring to technological evolution as:
--A purely communicational level (ie, the internet);
--A potentially symbiotic relationship (wind, solar energy);
--Or technology as a whole, which can include potentially destructive elements (genetic food engineering)?
In other words, are you referring to consciousness and technology as polar-opposite states, which upon terminal meltdown, will propel conscious higher; or as elements that can come together and give birth to a Spiritual Whole, greater than its individual parts?"

I would say the answer is all of the above.

If the world is maya, illusion, created by karma and consciousness, then what we are doing through technology is moving from one layer of illusion to another one. Just as there is neither being or nonbeing, there is neither evolution or nonevolution. On one level, there is simply change. However, I agree with Steiner's model of successive world incarnations, with humanity reaching a more conscious and developed state with each one. This is also the same belief as the Hopis and the Mayans, who posit the imminent destruction and recreation of this world, at the end of the current kalpa.

*
A Western anthropologist visited an Australian aboriginal shaman. He asked the shaman, "What is the dreaming?"

The shaman pointed into the sky, where a jet was flying overhead. "White man dreaming," he said.
*
Buddha: "I spend my life bringing dream enlightenment to dream beings in a dream world."
*

Technology is part of the Western dream. The goal of Western esotericism is the integration or reconciling of spirit and matter, symbolized in sacred geometry by the squared circle. We are rapidly approaching the completion of that goal, and the completion of the Great Work.

Think about this time time line:

The Stone Age - many thousands of years
The Iron Age - a few thousand years
The Industrial Age - 300 years
The Chemical/Plastic Age - 100 years
(Year the Periodic Table was established: 1932)
The Information Age - 25 years
The Biotechnological Age - 5 years

From this exponential shrinking of the amount of time it takes to achieve a technological revolution, it is quite possible that "The Nanotechnological Age" will last all of 5 minutes.

Technology is clearly a kind of self-organizing machine. It seems to have outpaced the evolution of human consciousness, and the ability of consciousness to control its destructive manifestations. This problem can only be addressed with esoteric and spiritual technologies - technologies of the Self - and the achievement of self-mastery.

Buddha: "If one man kills 100 men, and another man masters himself, that second man is the far greater warrior."

The material realm is an interface, or an illusion. The projection of technology into materiality is actually a psychic event - a projection to be followed by a reintegration of these new-found powers back into a new, and more intensified, form of consciousness, on a "higher octave."

[David Orange]

i was just reading this thread and found myself stumbling over this bit...
Originally posted by daniel:

Most of us, at least too much of the time, prefer to linger in Hell Realms or Hungry Ghost Realms - for instance, almost everyone on the "Left" have a kind of hysteric fascination with terror, torture, abuse of power, evil. By focusing singlemindedly on those areas, you give them more strength - you help them to manifest.
apologies if i'm taking this too much out of context and/or oversimplifying the thought behind the original post, but...i think that the reason why people of certain political persuasions may obsess over torture, abuse of power, etc. is because these things are indeed very real and to anyone with a still-beating heart, demand attention. i don't think that any "life is but a dream" type counsel is gonna be particularly helpful here, as that would seem to be cold comfort and insulting to those who are being tortured right now in some prison environment, or to those who don't have any food because their "leaders" have spent all of their nation's wealth on weapons or personal indulgences.

walk down any urban downtown area-- things are very, very wrong, and i think that the "don't focus too much on these things, as it only gives them more power" bit can be counter-productive. thank goodness that there are human beings who do focus on these things so that practical steps can be taken to alleviate suffering and provide people with an opportunity for better lives... pursuit of enlightenment or whatever you wanna call it is, i guess, an avocation restricted primarily to those privileged enough to pursue it-- i'm not sure how much good a suggestion to read steiner will do for someone who hasn't eaten properly in weeks and has no roof over his head.

if i'm not mistaken, "lingering" in the hungry ghost/hell realms would in fact mean being excessively selfish/greedy or angry/hateful...as opposed to being mindful of the enormous amount of suffering that's happening right now; in other words, really opening up one's eyes and taking a realistic view of life and allowing that to be a springboard for compassion to grow in our hearts. those of us who have never traveled to countries where the misery index is a far leap from the wealthy western world's and only get glimpses of what life is like for so many of our fellow human beings from advertisements for charities or quick spots on the evening news or the occasional newspaper article have a difficult time conceiving of how truly miserable life is for so many, and how unbelievably screwed-up everything on good old planet earth really is...

& at the risk of dredging up the whole 'right' vs 'left' bugaboo, isn't it in fact the right who are so dang obsessed with terror and "evil"?

i'm sure that you are not suggesting abandoning practical altruistic action in favor of merely projecting good vibes or whatever, but i'm concerned that somewhere in your equation, esotericism is running the risk of being severed from its connection to the dirt of everyday life.

[jezebelle]

Scylla
I just got the $4.00 version, thanks! I have read Power of Awareness and liked it. I will read this.

David Orange
The "dirt of everyday life," is a very good point. A tough dilemma.
How does one reconcille, the hypocracy?

plant what seed you can and then walk away
if you are drawn in then it is your arena.

I thank god, I am not able to fight some battles (age, sex) but try to face the ones I should.

But we all have to fight the bear sometimes.

An issue for all nevertheless, a living dangerous, wonderous world

[Proteus]

i share DO's concern that we don't become (as the cliche goes) so spiritually minded that we're no earthly good. But, i'm not certain that Daniel meant to say that because all is maya that we needn't be concerned with the evils of the world or that we're relieved from all responsibility for taking practical action to alleviate the suffering of the oppressed, hungry, and victimized. The character of his posts elsewhere suggests that he sees the need for principled action as well as mastery of the mind, but i'll let him speak to this if he wishes to.

i'm in the "don't know zone" when it comes to questions of whether or not we, more or less literally, project the so-called material world around us. i see a lot of evidence that our perceptions, expectations, intentions, and preconceptions DO create the world we know. But whether we're talking about a subjective experience of a changeable-yet-more-or-less objective world or whether we're talking about the contents of our minds more or less literally rearranging the electrons around us to manifest "our reality" seems an unanswerable question. Either way, since we're using our minds to ascertain how and the degree to which our minds "create" the world around us, where do we stand to verify our observations?

i'm equally undecided whether or not thinking about, worrying about, becoming angry over, etc. something going on in the world actually makes that thing more powerful. Saddam was a cruel and absolute dictator long before the Left became aware of him in 1991. Hand-wringing and high-minded speeches denouncing his cruel dictatorship and sympathizing with the oppressed Iraqi masses did not build his elaborate network of spies, thugs, prisons, torture chambers, etc. Indeed, such sentiments became a pretext for his forcible overthrow so that the Bushinistas could line their pockets and maintain for a little longer the illusion that America can sustain its present level of material comfort.

It seems to me that what turns the wheels in our dirt-world is a combination of vision and decisive action. What turned the tide in Iraq (and we're a long way from finding out for sure whether the post-Saddam regime will bring less suffering for the still-oppressed Iraqi masses) was a vision of a Saddam-free Iraq executed by the most powerful military in human history (i.e. vision + decisive action). Another vision and a different, nonviolent form of decisive action would have accomplished a different end. Simply thinking and talking about someone or some institution, while it creates such power as fame or dread or fellow-feeling are capable of generating, doesn't appear to me to be the whole story. Consciously developed intention (i.e. vision) must be combined with unflagging action for the energies that we describe as good and evil to wax or wane.

So, the issue might not be whether we let ourselves get too spiritual to bother about relieving suffering in the dirt-world, but whether or not we are in fact offering up an alternative vision that we're willing to execute. The question isn't whether or not suffering is or isn't real, but whether we're doing something about suffering--or merely decrying its existence. There's a big difference between spending a great deal of disciplined effort to form and realize a vision of the world where fewer suffer violence and oppression, hunger and sickness--and then taking practical steps to realize that vision--and simply pointing fingers at the bad guys.

[calculon]

I am interested in the thought that technology is separate from human conciousness. I agree with the concern that technology is an independent force that is growing out of control. Specifically, I am concerned that the search for technology that can provide artificial intelligence will be more successful and sooner than anyone can imagine. So, I have attempted to formulate an argument against the continuing development of computers...

before storage devices, computers had simple math
before the internet, computers had memory
before artificial intelligence, computers had knowledge
berore artificial emotion, computers had thought
and then they were alive!

math->memory->knowledge->thought->emotion->life

I think it is absolutely possible for machines to emulate life in every fashion. Technology has proven that there are no roadblocks. What makes us think that it is impossible for technology to develop beyond the capacity of our minds? The division between life and technology will be blurred until technology exceeds our "natural life." The only question really is if technology can transgress into our spirituality. That would have to be an instantaneously cataclysmic event.

[daniel]

David,

During my last ayahuasca trip down in Brazil, I got this strong message:

"YOU GO DEEPER INTO THE PHYSICAL TO GET TO THE INFINITE."

I am in no way thinking of some spiritualized transcendence from current conditions - I completely believe in immanence, not transcendence.

However, I think that Rudolf Steiner was absolutely correct that the way to defeat "evil" is not to protest it, parody it, or directly oppose it, but, instead, to make what is good. In Steiner's case, that included Waldorf Schools, Biodynamic Agriculture, Anthroposophic Medicine, and the Anthroposophic movement more generally. This is why I am fascinated by the Bioneers (www.bioneers.org), because they seek out visionaries who are implementing projects on a local level. Check out the info on John Todd or Paul Stamets. I salute anyone who is teaching meditation in prisons, art and literacy to drop outs, or any of a million such endeavours.

However, I think that, working within this system, such as official charities and groups like the Peace Corps, almost any effort gets perverted and corrupted, because the system has rotted out at the core.

"To go deeper into the physical" means, for me, that we have to work on every level to fix our disastrous relationship with nature - plant nature, animal nature, and human nature. The Bioneers, again, features thinking on "biomimickry" and thinkers like Frithof Capra, who are trying to move towards a technology that would be completely integrated with the natural world.

[daniel]

In fact, it might be interesting to have a discussion forum where people thought pragmatically and proposed real-world programs and projects to elevate consciousness, restore some ecological balance and sanity, and etc. As I said months ago, I liked the idea of the alternative culture I witness at Burning Man spreading out across the country - perhaps with "center cafes" or 24 hour hang outs in abandoned factory/warehouse buildings in urban areas, with a kind of volunteer bus service bringing people around to give seminars on yoga, shamanism, urban gardening, etc. Spreading the seeds of a new culture from the ground up.

[dragonfly]

Originally posted by Proteus:
Saddam was a cruel and absolute dictator long before the Left became aware of him in 1991.A clarification: It is incorrect to say that "the Left" was not aware of the Iraqi regime before 1991. I worked for the American Friends Service Committee's Middle East Peace Program in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and I can assure you that the despotic Iraq regime -- and the U.S. role in arming it -- was very much on the radar of the peace movement at the time.

[fungus44]

Regarding daniel's post two up abut creating pragmatic spaces -- I think it's totally great. I've been involved in one anarchist bookstore/cafe, a couple of odd households, and an intentional community in Ontario with its origins in the Jewish labour movment. It's naive to think that festivals or communes will somehow overcome the Empire, but the concrete realization of a living alternative is totally crucial, both for our souls and to stand as living examples of people living in a different way.

Our often unintentional community offers an incredible sense of Utopia -- I looked across a field and was able to accurately say "You're a bunch of Goofy Sufi Newfies!" with no offense taken. (Newfies are folks from Canada's Newfoundland and are often cruelly stereotyped). And this is in a secular Jewish setting.