4-AcO-DET - Pain of the World

[Morninggloryseed]

February 7th, 2003
16 mg of 4-AcO-DET hcl

This week my roommate left the country for a family emergency, so my partner and I figured we should take advantage of the empty house to evaluate a very rare and obscure psychedelic I recently managed to acquire. However because very little information exists on that material, and the substance is said to last up to eighteen hours, we aborted the trip at the last minute figuring we should wait for more data to surface and also because we had responsibilities the next day.

But we still wanted to trip, so we chose instead to take 4-AcO-DET which is a short-acting compound we are both very comfortable and familiar with. I carefully weighed out two capsules with sixteen milligrams in each, which is our customary dosage. I was not looking for any particular answers from this trip, nor did I have any particular expectations. Both of us just figured it would be a wonderful evening where we could explore each other’s minds as well as each other’s bodies.

Late in the evening we took our capsules, and I went to draw us some bath water. I find that soaking in a warm tub is an excellent way to relax while awaiting the onset of a psychedelic. Unfortunately I discovered the hot water heater was not functioning, so I had to boil water on the stove instead. It took around twenty minutes to prepare the bathtub with heated water from the stove, so by the time our bath was ready my partner and I had already began to notice some body vibration. Our bath was delightful. The warm water and tryptamine rushes produced some incredibly pleasurable somatic sensations. Neither of us was particularly talkative, as we were both very deep inside of our heads.

My partner got out of the tub before I did to smoke some pot. I remained in so I could gather my thoughts and think to myself for a bit. For some reason, I noted that the material seemed to be hitting me much harder than usual. Sixteen milligrams was a dosage I had taken a few times before, so I was not expecting any surprises. But it seemed obvious to me at the time that things seemed to be heading in an extraordinary direction. The visuals were already becoming, and I began to feel time stretch on and on. After what I guess to be fifteen minutes of quiet contemplation, I left the tub to join my partner in the living room.

The room seemed a bit too bright, so I turned off all of the lights and lit a few candles. I tend to find that incandescent light will sometimes produce a little anxiety when I am tripping. I prefer either natural light or simply to burn a few candles. About an hour into the trip, I took a few hits of marijuana. This dramatically increased the intensity of the experience and brought me up to a strong plus-three. My partner put on a mixed CD she compiled that contained a variety of musical styles ranging from Indian ragas to Radiohead. She elected to wear headphones while I chose to listen through the speakers. Listening to the music seemed to amplify the effects of the drug even further, and it filled me with powerfully intense emotions.

It seemed that the visuals were stronger and more complex than I had previously noted with this material. 4-AcO-DET had never really been an overtly visual substance in the past, but this time the objects in the room were in constant motion and the space before my eyes was filled with continually changing colors and pulsating flashes of light. Objects wavered and swayed in synch with the music and I even recall becoming a bit dizzy at one point. I had to shut my eyes to avoid being uncomfortable. At that point the trip was not unpleasant, but I had not expected it to be so intense. In fact I had never tripped so profoundly from 4-AcO-DET before, even on occasions when I had taken a larger dosage than this one. I didn’t quite know what to make of it all, but just figured it was ‘my time’ for a powerful and intensely deep experience.

At some point, my mind turned to the current events of the world, and the trip took a dramatic new direction. Slowly I began to experience some of the most painful and discomforting sensations and emotions I have ever known. I was lost in this endless black sea of uncertainty, fear and misery. It was the pain and fear of the repressed, persecuted, and disadvantaged people of the world. I could see and feel innumerable souls in that space with me, and all were in enormous pain and anguish. And I experienced this pain with them. I experienced the hurt of the world. In addition, I experienced that life would soon change drastically. I felt unforeseen but unspecific dangers, and I felt terrible pain and suffering coming in the future, and I just had the general feeling that something very bad was going to happen. It is actually more valid to say I did not feel these sensations, but in fact my sole existence was the sensations. It was very difficult to take it.

My partner asked me several times what was wrong, but not wishing to influence her trip or bring her down, I simply dismissed it all and told her I was just tripping very hard. But she could sense something was wrong and eventually I told her what I was experiencing. She tried to get me to realize the events of the world are out of my direct control and there is nothing I could do personally to influence or change it at this point. But this did not make me feel any better. Every effort of my will to change the focus of the trip failed. I came to understand that I was meant to experience this pain. What was happening was what was supposed to be occurring and I just had to embrace it. For what seemed like a timeless period as my partner listened to music, my sense of existence went in various cycles of pain and angst from tormented energies of both present and future.

Around two hours into the experience, my partner recommended we switch rooms for a change of scenery and hopefully of mood. It was a suggestion I gladly welcomed. We adjourned to the bedroom and I put on a live Grateful Dead recording. I figured their upbeat and happy music would help facilitate a change in my current pattern of thoughts. A few songs into the CD, my partner made it obvious that she wanted to make love. I began to kiss her all over, and though my tongue was engaged in a sweet dance around the more sensitive and delicious regions of her beautiful body, I could not get the feelings and images of anguish out of my mind. My partner picked up on this and suggested we stop and just try to relax and listen to the music. At this point I felt very disconnected from her as she did from I. It was obvious to me that we were in two very different places.

This was disheartening because the trip had already been very difficult. Then the disappointment of not being able to make love furthered my distress. To make the situation even worse, she began to notice anxiety and uncomfortable sensations in her body too. I believe she was picking up on my state of mind. Somewhere in the third hour of the trip, we decided to try to discuss our feelings in an attempt to make sense of it all, and maybe try to improve the situation. But it only added more confusion to my state of being. I then suggested we turn off the music and sit in silence for a while and practice some calming breathing techniques. We did this for some time, but it did not really work either.

By the forth hour, the level of discomfort and disconnection that grew between us had become quite alarming. No matter what was tried, we could not seem to reconnect with each other. As a last resort, one I rarely resort to, I suggested we terminate the trip with some Valium. My personal philosophy about this issue is that difficult and uncomfortable issues which sometimes surface during psychedelic experiences should be always be worked out and dealt with, instead of avoided and suppressed.

I believe there can be a lesson learned from pain that can arise from such experiences, and I’ve personally had valuable insights come forth in the past from harrowing and difficult trips. But we just could not seem to get past our feelings of disillusionment at the direction the trip had taken, and the extreme discomfort of not knowing how to fix the situation. Within an hour of taking the medicine we were very drowsy and sleep soon arrived after. The next day I was quite dazed from the Valium, and also a little shaken up from the difficult experiences I had during the trip.

Conclusion…

I am writing this one day after my experience so I have not had time to truly integrate what happened during this trip, nor have I really taken the time to contemplate and ponder on what it all meant. I will refrain from making any specific interpretations of the terrible premonitions I felt during the experience. I do not know what the future will bring, and I will not kid myself into thinking the feelings I had were some sort of prophecy for the future. I do not understand the meaning or origin of the suffering I experienced, but it was suffering and pain as real as anything I have ever felt before. As real as this keyboard I am typing on. I do feel I picked up these feelings from the connection that all humans share with the universe. That is, I do not believe these sensations were simply drug-induced. They were the real feelings of real people that exist in this world.

Most amazing was the sheer utter intensity of the experience. This did not resemble any previous trips with 4-AcO-DET I have had. The degree of visual alterations, waves of overwhelming emotion, and the general intensity of the experience was beyond anything I knew that sixteen milligrams of this compound was capable of producing. I guess it was just my time to have such an experience. The drug I took and dosage I chose was irrelevant. What I experienced was what I was meant to feel. Though it was one of the most difficult trips I have ever had, I would not change the experience for anything. I only hope in time I can integrate what happened and derive some true meaning from it all. I also hope that one day the human race will learn to move ahead a step, and war and leaders with selfish interests will be a thing of the past.

[ June 10, 2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Morninggloryseed ]

[sukiblue]

I enjoyed your post very much as I haven't done much research on 4-AcO-DET. Thanks for sharing

[Anita]

Bless you Morningglory for sharing this with us!
I am not familiar with the chemical you speak of,but I also have had the unusual experience not directly explained by dosage,although I imagine the dosage question needs to be considered along with what type of foods consumed prior to the journey.Having considered that(sort of,)I still come down on the side of a distinct pattern or road in "seeing",A higher intelligence guiding our visions.I recently read a book called The places that scare you,A guide to fearlessness in difficult times By Pema Chodron.
The book has a great chapter on Tonglen,a practice for activating loving-kindness and compassion.I feel this practice may help yourself and your partner integrate the experience into your everyday lives.In my continuing search for anything having to do with actively resisting those forces that feed on the misery of humanity,This makes the most sense to me,to learn how to be a balm,to ease the pain by opening of the heart.To take it in and change the energy with compassion.
Again,Thanks for sharing this experience with us.

[daniel]

Thanks for the report.

A hippy-dippy thought: I was told that some research group (perhaps related to Grof?) started studying psychedelic experiences in relation to astrology, and did find that especially powerful or disturbing experiences tended to align with certain personally charged astrological conjunctions (and I can attest to the power of charged dates, including new moons, in seeming to potentiate one's experiences beyond usual dosage values). So it might be interesting to check the time with planetary conjunctions on your chart. This is just one matrix or prism with which to think about it, of course.

To see much misery and suffering ahead because of the Middle East situation is not exactly a revelatory prophecy, but it is difficult - and hopefully ultimately valuable - to experience such forebodings physically.

I don't mean this to be insensitive, but you might also ponder on the fact that karma is involved on all sides, and from a higher perspective, perhaps some suffering is necessary for all of us evolving souls. As the Quran says: "Each of you must see Hell. That is an irrevocable decision of Our Lord."

[sidecross]

Many psychedelic experiences, certainly many of mine have not been trips to Disneyland. The political climate and the current human dilemma are ones that will spoil any idea of a pleasant outlook.

In retrospect most of the unpleasant psychedelic experiences I have had have been the seed that provided me with growth. As the Rolling Stones sang " you can't always get what you want, but you get what you need".

Imagine the insight our ancestors had to realize that placing shit on crops helped!

[Morninggloryseed]

>In retrospect most of the unpleasant psychedelic
>experiences I have had have been the seed that
>provided me with growth.

This has been my experience as well.

My most difficult trips seem to be the ones I learn the most from. As I like to say: there are no bad trips, but there are difficult ones. Experience, insight, and wisdom can arise from the pain suffered during a difficult psychedelic experience.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

[yahazim]

^^^

Haha! It's definately a tryptamine, eh?

Thanks for sharing. I feel you've had a very profound and serious enlightening experience.

It was for you.

I feel you terminated the experience too early, you both should of went through with it. It's quite possible things would of shifted into a different place. All too often the teacher inside the molecule will create a lesson to be learned. The first 3 hours of ayahuasca was like that for me.

"INDIAN MEDICINE MAKE YOU FEEL BAD NOW, GOOD LATER" <-- haha.

Still, though, great experience.

[Halfglass]

Whether fictionalized or not, I continue to find useful tools for tripping in the don Juan books. I'm sure I know what don Juan was saying when he said the warrior must "be fluid" and indifferent or unconcerned with the world of man. Sentiment has no place in psychedelic states. I agree with Mckenna too that sensory deprivation (including no music) is the best way to investigate whats happening during a trip. Anything else is recreational use and is by default tainted and unuseable (my opinion).

[Morninggloryseed]

Originally posted by Halfglass:
I agree with Mckenna too that sensory deprivation (including no music) is the best way to investigate whats happening during a trip. Anything else is recreational use and is by default tainted and unuseable (my opinion).

Could you explain this further?

[Halfglass]

RE: MorningGlory; When I was about 17 I tripped on LSD in my room (living with parents). I had to be quiet of course and, lying on my back in that black stillness I had one of my best psychedelic experiences--due perhaps to the novelty of it being the first time I'd tripped that way--ranking high in the 20 years since. I'm not saying that hiking in nature or listening to music is a waste altogether for a trip (I've had many revelations listening to music but in the end its a merry-go-round which distracts the tripper from the very interesting things that are happening in the darkness behind one's eyelids). Sex too I find I have no interest in while in these states. Sex is revealed as the hardwiring of the brain that it is when I trip. To trip with others at a concert or some busy place is to risk placing yourself in fussy detail that usually gives no insight unless you are interested in facing the mundane revealed ridiculous, which has some merit I suppose but, unfortunately for me I've never been able to not see it that way since I took the path I'm on. So for me it's the leap in the dark that counts--to square the circle or get a leg up on death or a glimps at the underpinnings of the self.

[ February 11, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Halfglass ]

[sidecross]

Terence McKenna often recommended psychedelics be taken at high doses in silence, darkness, and alone. A sitter or someone to monitor the surrounding conditions would preferably be a few rooms away.

Obviously McKenna was giving this opinion to those who knew what this kind of exploration was about. McKenna was concerned with the essence of the psychedelic and not the synchronicity of other interactions.

[Morninggloryseed]

Psychedelics can and do reveal their magic in a variety of settings. To basically say that tripping with complete sensory isolation is the 'best' or 'right' way to trip, and anything less than that is recreational use and therefore tainted and unusable is simply silly. Sometimes being in nature during a trip is more inspiring and insightful than anything I feel can be obtained by sitting alone in the dark and silence.

I have had quite a few trips in complete silence and blackness (this is how I commonly take ketamine and 5-MeO-DMT) and it is indeed like no other experience. But if you only tripped that way, it would become mundane and routine. Likewise, I find tripping with others around very valuable. Insights to be shared are new insights to be learned and one can not have such interactions in sensory deprivation situations.

There is a time and a place for everything, but sensory deprivation is no more the 'right' or 'best' way to trip than is sitting on a mountain summit viewing the Great Plains below. And I find it bogus to suggest anything less is recreational. That is an elitist and pretentious attitude. That is just my 10 cents of course.

[sidecross]

Originally posted by Morninggloryseed:
Psychedelics can and do reveal their magic in a variety of settings. To basically say that tripping with complete sensory isolation is the 'best' or 'right' way to trip, and anything less than that is recreational use and therefore tainted and unusable is simply silly. Sometimes being in nature during a trip is more inspiring and insightful than anything I feel can be obtained by sitting alone in the dark and silence.

I have had quite a few trips in complete silence and blackness (this is how I commonly take ketamine and 5-MeO-DMT) and it is indeed like no other experience. But if you only tripped that way, it would become mundane and routine. Likewise, I find tripping with others around very valuable. Insights to be shared are new insights to be learned and one can not have such interactions in sensory deprivation situations.

There is a time and a place for everything, but sensory deprivation is no more the 'right' or 'best' way to trip than is sitting on a mountain summit viewing the Great Plains below. And I find it bogus to suggest anything less is recreational. That is an elitist and pretentious attitude. That is just my 10 cents of course.

If your remark is made in reaction to what I wrote concerning McKenna, please reread what was said; the key word was recommended.

No one has a monopoly what is best.

[Morninggloryseed]

The remark was directed for the most part to Halfglass.

[Halfglass]

I did make a point of ending my 1st post with "(my opinion)"--then you asked for an elaboration. Ok yeah I suppose I might have come across like a know-it-all to some degree but it was more in the spirit of talking about what I've found to be an unmatched inroad to self-discovery. And I'm amazed by the amount of people who've never tripped alone--never mind in the dark with eyes closed. Elitist? Thats not really a bad thing. Routine? (tripping in the dark) You said it yourself NO trip ever is. Tripping with others never is. My intent is to discover what is happening and in my zeal I come across as "silly" maybe I am! Maybe we are the food source for the Others--now thats silly!

[yahazim]

It's ok on a discussion board to act like a know it all.

As long as you allow other know it alls on there with you.

[PuristLove]

The problem with dismissing other ways of doing things, or believing one way is the best way, or the only way, is that it can quickly become a way to ostracize people who do things other ways. It also becomes a self-imposed limitation, causing us to miss out on experiences that could be even more profound or enjoyable.

I also take issue with the way some people condemn recreational drug use, or say it is "useless". This is a hangover from the Puritanical background so many of us are supposed to be in opposition to. Recreation and pleasure have value in and of themselves. While recreational drug use certainly carries more risks than use with "nobler" intent in mind, it is by no means something we should be snubbing.

Life is a smorgasbord, and while my favorite dish may be the chicken casserole, I certainly shouldn't come down on someone who likes the mashed potatoes, and from time to time I might get a hankering for some of them myself.

[Morninggloryseed]

I like American-style Chinese food.

[Woodpecker]

The distinction between good and bad coffee is mostly lost on me.

[julonred]

only after drinking good coffee for an extended period of time, then returning to folgers, can you appreciate the difference.
i've never tripped alone myself, though at this time in my life, i'm not opposed to it, but it definitely creates some fear. then again, it seems the majority of my past trips i have felt a deep divide between me and the others i was with. everyone had a different "agenda", so to speak. if it is with another who is possibly seeking to find similar answers, then i suppose it could be bonding. though i did used to use lsd with a good friend of mine, and though we never spoke about any particular goals beforehand or what we were hoping or expecting, we were always riding it together. and in fact, could communicate without words. her voice in my ear and mine in hers. seemed natural, and i'm a little pissed i couldnt carry that away from the trip and use everyday.
julie

[StSimon]

Originally posted by daniel:
...psychedelic experiences in relation to astrology, and did find that especially powerful or disturbing experiences tended to align with certain personally charged astrological conjunctions (and I can attest to the power of charged dates, including new moons, in seeming to potentiate one's experiences beyond usual dosage values).

I had read something similar in regards to the lunar cycle upon dreams. Looking at my dream record I have found I can expect more vivid and more memorable dreams during the waning moon, esp. 3/4 to dark. I never considered comparing my psychedelic records, but I don't doubt it.

[julonred]

i also have more vivid, memorable and "trying to tell me something" dreams at that time, especially when the moon is dark. when the moon is waning is a good time, according to what i've studied of paganism, to look inward instead of directing your magic outwards. less action, more introspect.
julie