Hunting trip.

[Charlie]

I know this topic is as old as the hills, and I believe was discussed on this forum some time ago, but I still wrestle with it, and would appreciate some honest opinions.

My father was a butcher by trade; I am an unapologetic carnivore. I’ve always felt the need to confront the fact that the hermetically packaged, boneless breast I buy in the supermarket was once a living breathing, animal.

So I went hunting, with my wife’s brother.

Tordos are birds that seasonally nest in the mountains of Mallorca; they’re about the size of a large robin. They’re also a local delicacy, and are delicious in stews, soups or simply butterflied and sauteed in olive oil.

In a tradition dating back hundreds of years, hunters climb high in the mountains to study the fly routes of these birds, then build a platform called a coll along these routes, camouflaged between two trees. The kill is made with a thin, diaphanous net mounted on two poles, called a filat. He goes before dawn and waits for daylight, sitting motionless in the freezing coll, with the filat open overhead. As the unsuspecting birds fly directly into the net, it's quickly swung shut, the pole lowered to where the bird is trapped, and its skull crushed between thumb and forefinger. In the hands of a skilled hunter, the whole procedure takes no more than 10-15 seconds. If a smaller, stray bird hits the net, it is removed and harmlessly released. The hunting season for these particular birds, along with catch limits, are set by the local government.

When we got to the hunting site, I said a prayer to mother nature giving thanks for my life, and asking for permission to kill these birds, stating that we respected the life of these animals and would do everything we could to prevent them from suffering. I stated that we did not wish to create an imbalance in nature, and that the birds would be used for sustenance. Although what I said was meant in all sincerity, I had the hollow feeling it was just an egotistical, bullshit rationalization to make myself feel better about killing little birds.

Overall, the whole experience was a lot like fishing (which I enjoy); half the pleasure is sitting quietly within the environs of nature. Obviously, I didn’t enjoy crushing a bird’s skull, but when I was holding the net open, I found myself hoping that I would catch something. I trapped and killed two birds; we caught eight in total.

When I got home, my nine-year-old son wanted to know all the gory details about how we killed the birds, and said he wanted to come the next time. My five-year-old daughter looked at me with accusing eyes and told me it was wrong to kill; she was at the point of tears. I explained as best I could that we were all part of a food chain, and that the animals were not killed for enjoyment, but she wasn’t buying it. She simply asked, “Would you like something to hunt and kill you?” I didn’t have a good answer for that one. It’s not fun to be seen as a murderer in the eyes of your children.

I always felt a human’s eyes were in the front of their heads to focus on prey, and we have teeth meant for eating meat. If my cat can kill a bird and eat it, why not me?

Then again, as supposedly evolved creatures, should we be moving beyond this stuff?

[ January 14, 2005, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[sidecross]

Man & Woman the hunter were once Man & Woman the hunted.

What we have lost is being on the list of another active predator.

[nanouk]

i believe in hunting for food, i grew up in a culture where you take some wild fungi, juniper and meat from deer, cook it with care, and serve with rowan jelly, all from the larder of nature... [img]smile.gif[/img]

i think we still have one predator, man himself. we have often discussed the reptilian brain, and i believe individuals with a very active cortex, and less active 'constructive' brain cells, are the hunters of man woman and child alike.

a long time ago, when i was in training as a journalist at my local newspaper, the editor asked me to write an article on 'blood thirsty' animals, i covered mosquitoes, foxes and finally man...the mosquito, drinks blood to reproduce, the fox kills ten insted of two hens because fox thinks it may take some time until it's next feast...and man...well jeffrey damner killed to eat, but in most other cases of 'blood thirst', a killing is made out of fear, lust or greed.

love and respect,
~N.

[gone]

I believe that while we are physiologically designed to eat meat we have entered a period where our psychic evolution has kicked in and we need to look beyond these things.

I feel that unless eating meat is essential (like in the arctic or something) we should all strive for vegetarianism. It just seems all wrong to me to eat animals through choice when there is an alternative. We would all expect a stronger sentient being which entered our world to respect (or at least understand) our wish not to be extinguished. I wince if I step on an ant.

I do have some respect for meat eaters who hunt their own meat – there’s nothing I hate more than people trying not to think about fluffy animals when tucking into their lamb chops; it is the ultimate denial of reality.

[daniel]

I am not really a purist in these matters. I think that Christ said something like: What you put into your mouth is not going to damn you, it is what comes out of your mouth that will get you in trouble.

However I was interested in some concept of Steiner's that suggested the need to eat animals was based on the need for some soul-force contained in that animal - those who have attained higher levels no longer have that desire or need to absorb that form of energy from animal flesh. They can self-generate it (something like that).

Sometimes I imagine all the chickens I have ever eaten in my life surrounding me and desiring revenge - a giant accusatory clucking mass of poulty filling several blocks.

Also since toxins concentrate up the food chain, there is no doubt that right now is the best time ever to become a vegetarian or raw-foodist. I could do it forever in a community of such, but here I tend to take the easy way out.

[forteanajones]

I am all for a non-animal diet, but it's very important for people who are thinking of switching to read up extensively and consult a nutritionist. There is a lot of new research happening right now on diet for not only different body types, but for different genetic types as well. Some people make the transition nearly effortlessly, and some can struggle for years before finding that it's not for them. I know a few people who did all their homework, saw a nutritionist, tried the change and still had many health and energy-level issues so it seems that diet changes can be fairly complex.

[ January 14, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

[nanouk]

so what are the farmers going to do if we stop eating meat? grow potatoes again?

the more i hear of the atkins diet, the more i wanna be a cave woman...

[gone]

Yes, it does require more nutrition awareness. Some years ago I was in a part of China where even the simplest vegetables were cooked in pork stock (complete with bits of hairy skin!). I struggled for quite a while getting by on rice and what raw things I could find and ended up getting very weak. At one point I started losing my peripheral vision. Another time in Vanuatu I ended up spending three weeks eating rice and custard cream biscuits. This shouldn’t happen in New York or California though…

I have reconciled myself to the fact that the next time I find myself in that situation I will eat meat or fish – being sick is not part of the psychic evolution.

As for the farmers, it’s not a god-given right to make profit off the land – they have some sustainability issues to deal with just the same as the energy corps. In NZ something crazy like 80% of our Kyoto-agreed limits on green-house gases come from cattle methane, who then proceed to shit in the rivers which cause the lakes to clog up with green-blue algae. The farmers have had it good for too long.

[ January 14, 2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: gelfer ]

[nanouk]

i blame the supermarkets for letting us believe 'cheaper is better', i was told also, that carrots have lost 40% or more of their nutritional value since ww2...

i have seen irresponsible farmers as well as responsible, and rarely have i seen rivers full of manure...plenty of car tires and tin cans though...

also in northern europe, (i include britain here)we are dependent on the crops we can grow successfully, well, that leaves us with root vegetables and a few other exceptions, and no, most farmers don't 'own' their land in england, the 'duchy' does, iaw, the queen and the church.

...farmers here rent the 'privilege' of providing food for the people, only to get undercut again and again by the likes of wahlgreens and asda.

[Agent Smith]

i would actually argue that we are not physiologically designed (or adapted) to eat meat at all... beyond a few bugs now and again.

our eyes are forward, however there are some differences when compared to carnivorous animals, pure predators (which all eat plants too, btw) they're not coming directly to mind sorry.

our cannine teeth aren't fit for ripping through animal hides. if you don't believe me go try taking a bite out of a live cow... our nails are no claws.

it's our digestion however that's the dead give away. our gastrointestial tract is much, much longer than a carnivore's. most predatory animals have very short GI tracts, two, three feet in length, in order to keep the meat from puetrifying. this is how we get colon cancer.

the hydrocholoric acid in the stomachs of predators is much more powerful than in humans, as well as the types of digestive enzymes in their saliva.

i've said it before that diet is such a loaded topic, and this is stuff you can all look up.

think about it, without a net, spear, gun, bow, etc. what are you going to kill? we haven't been eating this way for very long, evolutionarily speaking.

again don't believe me? go ahead, strip naked, and run down a deer, rip open it's belly with your teeth, and nails, eat it's organs, crack open it's bones, lick out the marrow and...

oh, wait, what's that you say? humans were meant to be scavengers? well, take some road kill home, and eat that... raw. won't diget too well.

oh well. me and my kooky ideas

[nanouk]

agent smith, i agree with you, our digestive system has a hard time breaking down a t-bone steak, but that is helped along by eating plenty of onions and tomatoes with it, as well as some culinary herbs...
i have a few friends that are vegetarian, and one of them in particular makes me laugh, he told me off for eating chicken, said i am savage, and then, when he is cooking me a meal, the first thing he puts in his stew is a can of tuna!
so, if it is a moral decision rather than deciding whether we are designed to eat animal protein...and i remember seeing those pictures of malformed canadian cod through another thread...
*brrrr*

i have tasted many fruits and vegetables that taste of damp ol' warehouse, and no matter what we eat, unless we or our friends catch, grow or gather it (i will leave out cook it for now, lol), i do not know what food to embrace for me and my children...all i have trust in is my own tastebuds [img]smile.gif[/img] and, of course recommendations!

[Agent Smith]

unfortunately i'm fresh outta recommendations... hmm, how about this one

don't eat any meat you didn't personally snuff?

more fiber.

i dunno... i have discovered that the experts know no more than i do at this stage.

[nanouk]

there are many experts, in their field, i only know from personal experience what my mind and body actually feels good from, i buy organic as much as i can, and try to 'enlighten'my children's taste buds as much as they allow. i can see a difference in their behaviour, depending on what they have eaten or drunk, i believe in a middle path, everyone should do what they think is best, and enjoy whatever is provided from day to day. [img]smile.gif[/img]

i have experienced a sudden loss in income lately, *to say the least, lol* and have to think really hard to make nutritious meals for us, and meat is a rare thing. i have noticed a clear slowdown in energy levels in myself, and struggle walking up the hills i normally conquer without problem...

[Lowlight]

very strange...this thread is what i have thinking about for a while now, but particulary the last few days.

i guess it depends on how far you want to take something. if we dont have the right to take animal life, what right do we have to kill plants for food. they are alive too. so the question becomes do you wanna live? life means death. i think as long as killing for food is done sustainably and responsibly then it is 'natural' and in harmony withthe nature.

i agree though, if you are gonna eat an animal you should be able to kill them. i hate it when people are hypocrites.

[Agent Smith]

my main 'objection' to flesh consumption isn't moral... it's health related.

meat maybe murder. i might not be against murder.

[willoweyes]

Eating meat is so complicated--the question of how and what we eat is the bedrock of religion and morality (as far as I am concerned).

We raise milk goats on our farm, and the question of what to do with excess male goats is an ongoing dilemma. Sell them? A weak-kneed cop-out, for their life would be only horror, pain and death. At least on this farm, our animals can celebrate their full goatiness to the utmost--they can enjoy all aspects of a desireable goat lifestyle. (we don't even de-horn our goats--dehorned goats suffer a severe loss of stature and self-esteem--not to mention their most useful implement).

However, sometimes we must kill male goats, and we do it ourselves. It is tough, particularly with a charming goatling I have midwifed.

Our farm is basically a limestone uplift--no topsoil, up-an-down, grubby bushes strugglling for a foothold. There would be no growing soybeans here for tofu. This is goat country.

We live in an absolutely artificial world--without predators, or freedom (the two concepts are linked). I think the best we can do, is recognize the sacredness of all our eating, eat mindfully, and please do not encourage the proliferation of factory farms, by allowing their vile, tortured flesh to enter our being.

[willoweyes]

And Charlie, I have always admired your posts, but as far as catching robins in a net and crushing their little skulls with my fingers--I wouldn't do it for fun.

[Lowlight]

ive been thinking about all of this today and just now a quote from Gibran's 'the prophet' came back to me. i forget the page, but it is where the prophet talks of how to deal with the morality of eating.

here is an extended quote -

"When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."

And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."

i love this book so much!

peace

lowlight

[nanouk]

~All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.~ George Orwell

[Charlie]

Everyone, thanks for the feedback.

The variety of responses offered here suggests that maybe there is no definitive right or wrong answer on the topic—perhaps it’s a matter of individual conscience.

I’ve killed chickens and cocks in our henhouse out of necessity—although I didn’t enjoy it, I would do it again today, if need be. However, I don’t think I will be hunting these birds again. As a few people mentioned, there just didn't seem to be a necessity for it. I also ran into my hunting partner again later in the week; he stated that his kill total since the start of the season was over 400. That’s a huge flock of birds that I’d rather see flying overhead, then cooking in a few stewpots.