Shamanic Journeying - Page 2

Agent Smith · 08-21-2005, 03:40 AM

tana-i suppose andrews does, never got into him though.

yes i generally use one of harner's recorded cd's, which i got years ago...

...although i spend more, and more time as of late exploring the hypnogogic state of halfwaking. (always a very active place for me.)

this is kind of what i was refering to when i was asking about the various levels of dreaming folks have experienced.

Robert Moss describes what he calls 'shamanic dreaming' which is basically (if i understand him correctly) using dreaming practice, such as lucid dreaming, dream journals, 'day dreaming' etc. as entry points for journeying. and then using drumming, or whatever else works for you to 'reenter' dreamscapes, and clairify your experiences.

this takes a bit of practice, and i will fully admit to being less adept at it than i'd like to be... still i've been exploring this avenue more deeply.

to address your mention of breath in another thread tana, Moss desribes something he calls 'shamanic snoring' (hahaha) which is basically using a deep rasping breath to focus on instead of drumming. i know of several other breath/trance journeying techniques, but haven't actually explored them yet...

...i mostly use the drumming as it is so incredibly reliable, and easy for me.

it's more powerful with live drummers, although the work is generally less interesting to me.

as a small side note i know that in traditional chinese herbalism merriewanna is considered draining to the qi in the kidneys, and useful in treating extream diaherriha.

it wasn't until several year after i'd quit using it that i was actually able to begin journeying. i had to clear up the messes i'd made with that plant... while i was using it my path was blocked...

although if i'd started out being able to journey the way i can now, i would never have used substances. the experience is much more reliable, and accessable.

[ August 21, 2005, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: Agent Smith ]

zenafire · 08-23-2005, 03:15 PM

Smith, do you know more about why the plant is so inhibitive to dream states other than it is draining to the chi, which in itself is harmful overall? I've had that experience of losing my intuitive and dreaming edge during periods of regular use. I was also less likely to trust the info I was experiencing.

forteanajones · 08-23-2005, 04:46 PM

Hmm, when I first started looking into journeying I had no trouble so long as I gave my full (and sober) attention to the experience, despite being a diehard devotee to said plant. Yet I also have no trouble believing in chi disruption, chakra blockage or intuition interferance for the reasons stated above. I wonder if there may be a compromise.

Agent Smith · 08-25-2005, 03:18 AM

yeah, beyond being told by a very respectable TCM that it drains kidney qi, and my own teacher's refusal to have anything to do with habitual users (which includes regular-'casual' use) i couldn't give you an specifics... it would take some investigation, i've got other things to do with my time though.

i know for me personally my usage became problematic because i was ignoring the information the plant was communicating to me. (like 'quit using me you idiot.') extream anxiety, and paranoia, what w.s.burroughs refered to as 'The Fear.' yep good times.

i think people vastly underestimate the shamanic potential of cannibis.

drums, trance, and dreaming are much easier, and more powerful.

forteanajones · 08-25-2005, 10:47 AM

Thanks for this, Agent Smith, those words have certainly given me pause (still need to read up on the kidney qi thing). Very parallel actually with several other developments (or elements and sub-elements of my personal crisis if you prefer) which are leading me in the same direction. I'm just about to enter a new major cycle and so this would appear to be an excellent time to add a couple more changes (also evaluating total vs. temporary abandonment).

Chronicling and tracking the shamanic journey experience would seem to be something we haven't talked about much here. I think most people rely on pen and paper. Anyone do anything special here, or find interesting patterns after reviewing notes etc.? What symbolic systems do you use, if any?

The Robert Moss stuff sounds a bit like the dream yogas described by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in his book. He has a great bit that addresses the concerns raised by some Western psychologists who don't like lucid dreaming.

If you'll indulge me:

Quote:

"Some schools of Western psychology believe it is harmful to control dreams, that dreams are a regulatory function of the unconscious or a form of communication between parts of ourselves that should not be disturbed. This view suggests that the unconscious exists and that it is a repository of experience and meaning. The unconscious is thought to form the dream and embed in it meaning that will either be explicit and obvious or latent and in need of interpretation. In this context, the self is often thought to be composed of the unconscious and conscious aspects of the individual, and the dream is thought to be a necessary medium of communication between the two. The conscious self can then benefit by working with the dream or from the balancing of physiological processes through the dream-making activity.

Understanding emptiness radically changes our understanding of the dreaming process. These three entities - the unconscious, the meaning, and the conscious self - are all entities that exist only through imputing reality to that which by itself has none. It is important to understand what is being said here. The concern that the encroachment of the conscious mind upon the unconscious is damaging to natural processes makes sense if you posit the elements of the situation as discrete elements of the individual, working in cooperation with one another. But this view understands only one dimension of the individual's internal dynamics, often to the detriment of a more expansive identity.

As mentioned earlier, there are two levels of working with dreams. One involves finding meaning in the dream. This is good, and it is the level of most of the Western psychologies that accord value to dreams. In both the East and the West, it is understood that dreams can be sources of creativity, solutions to problems, diagnosis of ills, and so on. But the meaning in dreams is not inherent to the dream; it is being projected onto the dream by the individual examining the dream and then is 'read' from the dream. The process is much like describing the images and they seem to appear in the ink-spot tests used by some psychologists. The meaning does not exist independently. Meaning does not exist until someone starts to look for it. Our mistake is that rather than seeing the truth of the situation, we begin to think that there really is an unconscious, a thing, and that the dream is real, like a scroll with a secret message written on it in code that if cracked, anyone could read.

We need a deeper understanding of what the dream is, of what experience is, to truly utilize dreaming as an approach to enlightenment. When we practice deeply, many wonderful dreams will arise, rich with signs of progress. But ultimately the meaning in the dream is not important. It is best not to regard the dream as correspondence from one another entity to you, not even from another part of you that you do not know. There is no conventional meaning outside of the dualism of samsara. This view is not a giving in to chaos; there is no chaos or meaninglessness either, these are more concepts. It may sound strange, but this idea of meaning must be abandoned before the mind can find complete liberation. And doing this is the essential purpose of dream practice.

We do not ignore the use of meaning in dreaming. But it is good to recognize that there is also dreaming in meaning. Why expect great messages from a dream? Instead penetrate to what is below meaning, the pure base of experience. This is the higher dream practice - not psychological, but more spiritual - concerned with recognizing and realizing the fundament of experience, the unconditioned. When you progress to this point, you are unaffected by whether there is a message in the dream or not. Then you are complete, your experience is complete, you are free form the conditioning that arises from dualistic interactions with the projections of your own mind."(pp. 131-132)

Or this one on Mind and Rigpa, which also segways into the value of this sort of work also offers, for helping prepare us for the ultimate journey of death:

Quote:

"The conceptual or moving mind is that familiar mind of everyday experience, constantly busy with thoughts, memories, images, internal dialogues, judgments, meanings, emotions, and fantasies. It is the mind normally identified as 'me' and 'my experience.' Its fundamental dynamic is engagement with a dualistic vision of existence. It takes itself to be a subject in a world of objects. It grasps at some parts of experience and pushes others ways. It is reactive, wildly so sometimes, but even when it is extremely calm and subtle - for example, during meditation or intense concentration - it maintains the internal posture of an entity observing its environment and continues to participate in dualism.

The conceptual mind is not limited to language and ideas. Language - with its nouns and verbs, subjects and objects - is necessarily subject to dualism, but the conceptual mind is active in us before the acquisition of language. Animals have a conceptual mind, in this sense, as do infants and those born without the capacity for language. It is result of habitual karmic tendencies that are present before we develop a sense of self, even before we are born. Its essential characteristic is that it instinctively divides experience dualistically, beginning with subject and object, with me and not-me.

The fundamental reality of mind is pure, non-dual awareness, Rigpa. Its essence is one with the essence of all that exists. In practice, it must not be confused with even the subtlest, quietest, and most expansive states of the moving mind. Unrecognized, the nature of mind manifests as the moving mind, but when it is known directly it is both the path to liberation and liberation itself.

When the conceptual mind is free of grasping and aversion, it spontaneously relaxes into unfabricated Rigpa. Then there is no longer identification with the reflections in the mirror and we can effortlessly accommodate all that arises in experience, appreciating every movement. If hatred arises, the mirror is filled with hatred. When love arises, the mirror is filled with love. For the mirror itself, neither love nor hatred is significant; both are equally a manifestation of its innate capacity to reflect. This is known as the mirror-lie wisdom; when we recognize the nature of mind and develop the ability to abide in it, no emotional state distracts us. Instead, all states and all phenomena, even anger jealously, and so on, are released into the purity and clarity that is their essence. Abiding in Rigpa, we cut karma at its root and are released from the bondage of samsara." (pp. 188-191)

A bit religious, perhaps, but still useful.

[ August 25, 2005, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

forteanajones · 08-25-2005, 01:44 PM

Agent Smith, in which book did Moss talk about snoring?

Agent Smith · 08-25-2005, 03:43 PM

i've read them all multiple times so it all kind of blends seamlessly...

...but i believe it was the last one, 'ancient dreamways of the iroquois' or some such...

i'll have to digest the tenzin bits a little later, but thanx...

tana · 08-29-2005, 02:13 AM

thanks for all your input on this topic, Agent Smith; i appreciate the info. i was introduced to shamanic jouneying via Harner & Ingerman's books...and i did some journeying to live drumming, which was very intense...quite a ride!

i found your mention of Moss's 'shamanic snoring' and 'dreamworld-as-an-entry-point' techniques interesting...i'll have to give his books another try. (yeah, i couldn't get through Andrew's books either, but i no longer remember why.)

i am currently trying out a detox regime recommended to me by my bodyworker...it’s supposed to clear cannabis residue from the fat cells...i’m curious to see what effect it has on both my waking and dreaming lives! in case anyone else is interested here it is...(* = most important components)

supplements: (unless indicated, use standard dose recommended on label)

*milk thistle - 3 capsules, 2 or 3 times / day
*dandelion - ditto
omega 3 / cod liver oil
apple cider vinegar
turmeric

fresh food components:

*flax seed - whole or ground, mixed with food at meals (in cereal, etc.)
*daily tonic made from blending, then straining the following fresh items:
-bunch of parsley
-whole lemon, peeled
-garlic
-ginger

...follow this regime for 6 to 8 weeks.

by the way, Harry (my bodyworker) swears by this tonic for it’s intense cleansing ability...he said that a frequent smoker could practically pass a urine test within four hours of drinking it, although i certainly would not try to test that theory!

Agent Smith · 08-29-2005, 03:37 AM

sounds like a classic liver tonic! [img]smile.gif[/img]

another BIG aspect of my personal practice is physical purification, diet, herbs, etc.

my two favorite Moss books so far are "Dreaming True" and "Dreamways of the Iroquois".

"Dreaming True" details the role of dreams in the life of Harriet Tubman, a childhood hero of mine. that book changed my life...

Moss' next book is a dreamwork book of the dead, which is an interesting component of his dream work practices...

...it's also interesting to me that one of the last books w.s.burroughs published was a dream journal of 35 years worth of his dreams... "If you dream long enough,and hard enough, you will come to know, that by dreaming it, you can make it so...."

forteanajones · 08-29-2005, 06:17 AM

Started my own purification process last week, sans tonic, and plan to head to my local market this weekend to try out Harry's brew (thanks tana). Ironically, it was actually an Mj vision, chock full of archetypal interactions & messages, informed by intense Tarot studies/readings, which finally triggered a series of behavioral changes for me.

Mj has loads of benefits for me personally (many non-shamanic ones also) but at the moment the benefits are just extra weight during this regenerative process.

This thread has been totally informative and inspiring on multiple levels, thanks to all.

JCCamp007 · 08-29-2005, 07:52 AM

Maybe when we get depressed that is why we like to sleep.To solve our problems and detoxify by regeneration.

Eagle Wing · 08-30-2005, 06:44 PM

tana,
the quote that you attributed to charlie,
"As a fellow devotee of mj, i urge caution in the assessment of the interior images, i have sometimes found myself delusioned... she can be a tricky muse and she demands a great deal of inner strength from her interface to be effective."
was actually written by me.

just piping in to confirm Agent Smith's response that mj drains chi from the kidneys -- this is true, at least according to my acupuncturist who studies 5-element. She says that it draws chi from the kidneys and brings it to the stomach. makes sense doesn't it? So, the result being that the stomach energies are strengthened while the kidneys are weakened. As the stomach is connected with anxiety and the kidneys with courage and willpower, that goes a long way towards explaining side effects like paraonoia and amotivation.

I also agree that mj has tremendous shamanic potential, and i have experienced this in certain situations.
Like i said, mj works best when the user has enough inner strength and focus to channel it into a ritual application. Otherwise, the power of the plant is usually stronger than the intention and personal power of the user, so their personality becomes dominated/subjugated to it.
It is really easy to go in for mjt too much and be weakened by it. It is not an aid to lucid dreaming whatsoever, in fact in my experience it clouds the understanding of the dreamtime.

mushrooms, on the other hand...
first of all, are far less likely to be overly used
(i think that's the main problem with mj, she keeps you coming back for too much)
i've always found lucid dreams to increase after a trip. It's a good way to reprogram yourself out of habitual smoking, as well. Probably not as good as iboga though.

This really has been a great thread, and thanks for that liver/kidney tonic recipe, whoever posted that!

Agent Smith · 08-31-2005, 02:23 AM

i'll just pipe up to reenforce the notion that with shamanic journeying techniques the ritual use of merriwanna, or mushrooms rapidly becomes completely obsolete. (yeah it does.)

(no you shut up.)

using fairly light trance states, that are none the less quite potent and powerful has been much more effectve, and reliable for my own personal practice, and for folks who i actually respect in regards to theirs.

JCCamp007 · 08-31-2005, 11:13 AM

Excellent respones FJ,of yours on july 5th.
This message comes to you on August 31st soon after I offered a request,on line,for all to see.

Thread-Return of the Big Q.- I think.

...for the gates of hell to open
to eternity.

Daniel you shoudn't deny me any more,
for I'm standing with Heavens people,
here at the door for
the South shall arise AGAIN.
And New York shall sink deeper into the mud.

We may have to take farmland that has been dormant for at least 50 years and put it in production with proper seed but we here in Oklahoma can feed half the world if your Government would help US.

Coming to you from Lake Eufaula,on Interstate 40,McIntosh County,Oklahoma.

Near which all can find a home.

Mpski

JCCamp007 · 08-31-2005, 11:25 AM

And you Smith,need to go to work for me.For the man is telling you now,
"If you sell it,you better not use it."

MJ has more potential of being one of the most moneymaking pharmaceutical incorprations.

Why?

Because MJ is the only plant that has both an amphetamine-like and an opium -like effect on th human brain..

I'm sure Daniel has come across some good orange sunshine down there in Az and I hope he brings me some so we can pass it out periodically.Has great potential,that boy Daniel does.
Specially here in McIntosh County.

The seventh generation Sun of Quanah Parker

forteanajones · 09-02-2005, 02:41 PM

Today I journeyed for the first time in a while. I've been feeling stronger this week than I've felt for many months. This time, there didn't seem to be many non-plant creatures around, so I made my way to a place that looked like a nice fishing spot, and cast a line. I managed to contact a large carp-like creature, who was willing to converse with me, and he was able to help me a little with a problem I have. He also pointed out a little underwater plant and advised me to eat it. I just took it with me, and ate it after I was done.

After looking around for more helpers, and finding none, I decided to travel up to the middle world and did something stupid. I decided to visit GWB on a total whim, but when I got within sight of him there was suddenly this flash of light, a tone of some kind and I was flooded with panic and fell out of my journey. This has never happened to me before. I think I could have worked against that energy, but I decided not to. This was a rare departure from my own personal guidelines and I'm still trying to figure out what happened.

franklin · 09-02-2005, 03:26 PM

too bad, there's so much you could have dialogued with him about.

i have a question for this board: i'm wondering at the very small amount of discussion about the catastrophic events in the last week, does it really ot conern anyone? questions of infrastructure; real solutions to real problems, new ways to commuity build? whatever?

are ya'll in shock, or is this whole endeavor just a armchair journey into that dark night.

forteanajones · 09-02-2005, 05:54 PM

Hi Franklin and welcome. I suspect you caught us at a bad time. Half the board is off at Burning Man, it's the start of a three-day weekend, Summer is ending so schedules are shifting, and we've actually expended quite a bit of energy collectively on natural disasters and the like over time in discussions. Shock is probably part of it. I think you'll find if you search for it plenty of dialogue about the tsunami, back when that hit, not to mention tons of other disaster-focused threads. Just my two cents.

I for one am totally feeling it, just don't have a whole lot to say about it here although I try to remain focused on it with friends and family, who are only now beginning to realize, sort of, that times are changing big time.

[ September 02, 2005, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

Eagle Wing · 09-02-2005, 07:03 PM

hi franklin, nice to meet you.
there was an interesting piece in the ny times today about new orleans. i've been thinking about it alot. where the "blame" falls is obvious; responsibility is a major issue for the planet NOW

how could they have done noawlings better>?
maybe not guilding it at all.

i've said alot about this already but today my heart was really hurting. i had to stop what i was doing actually to cry for a little while. that's what happens, for me, if i pay attention to what's going on in this world.

i knew this (the drowning of NO) was going to happen a long time ago.
so did people who were paid a lot of $$ for telling someone who was responsible.
so.... i'm just waiting for a big cane to whup long island.

solutions?
if they were going to build on the silt, they needed to keep up with it IMPECCABLY. for real, like they needed to keep those levees in tip top shape. And Bush's re-budgeting in...
2004...
dropped SELA and gave the $$ to the war.
that's it.

there was a decent proposal for a (sustainable???!!!) NO in 1998.
i don't believe such a thing is possible anymore.

Eagle Wing · 09-02-2005, 07:06 PM

forteana,
thanks for your lovely posts.
your journey reminds me of a dream i had a while ago, about a pond...
i think i was too scared to cast the reel in at that time because there was some kind of voodoo monster scaring me off.

also when you visit bush in the real world, that tone won't scare you off as long as you are prepared to see...

don't visit that creep anyway. the ahriman are all over that shit.

Agent Smith · 09-03-2005, 10:26 AM

hey franklin... this is 'sort of an armchair exercise' IMHFO

i come here for leads on information that i am already researching and persuing elsewhere.

many of us have lives outside the board as well.

btw, thanx for the article in the NOLA thread.

i've been dreaming quite a bit about NOLA...

ah well.

journey work can be useful.

08-29-2005, 07:52 AM	#41
JCCamp007 Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Between the I and the t,Checotah,Oklahoma Posts: 373	Maybe when we get depressed that is why we like to sleep.To solve our problems and detoxify by regeneration. __________________ Be here now John Paul.

08-31-2005, 11:13 AM	#44
JCCamp007 Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Between the I and the t,Checotah,Oklahoma Posts: 373	Excellent respones FJ,of yours on july 5th. This message comes to you on August 31st soon after I offered a request,on line,for all to see. Thread-Return of the Big Q.- I think. ...for the gates of hell to open to eternity. Daniel you shoudn't deny me any more, for I'm standing with Heavens people, here at the door for the South shall arise AGAIN. And New York shall sink deeper into the mud. We may have to take farmland that has been dormant for at least 50 years and put it in production with proper seed but we here in Oklahoma can feed half the world if your Government would help US. Coming to you from Lake Eufaula,on Interstate 40,McIntosh County,Oklahoma. Near which all can find a home. Mpski __________________ Be here now John Paul.

08-31-2005, 11:25 AM	#45
JCCamp007 Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Between the I and the t,Checotah,Oklahoma Posts: 373	And you Smith,need to go to work for me.For the man is telling you now, "If you sell it,you better not use it." MJ has more potential of being one of the most moneymaking pharmaceutical incorprations. Why? Because MJ is the only plant that has both an amphetamine-like and an opium -like effect on th human brain.. I'm sure Daniel has come across some good orange sunshine down there in Az and I hope he brings me some so we can pass it out periodically.Has great potential,that boy Daniel does. Specially here in McIntosh County. The seventh generation Sun of Quanah Parker __________________ Be here now John Paul.

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08-21-2005, 03:40 AM	#31
Agent Smith Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 689	tana-i suppose andrews does, never got into him though. yes i generally use one of harner's recorded cd's, which i got years ago... ...although i spend more, and more time as of late exploring the hypnogogic state of halfwaking. (always a very active place for me.) this is kind of what i was refering to when i was asking about the various levels of dreaming folks have experienced. Robert Moss describes what he calls 'shamanic dreaming' which is basically (if i understand him correctly) using dreaming practice, such as lucid dreaming, dream journals, 'day dreaming' etc. as entry points for journeying. and then using drumming, or whatever else works for you to 'reenter' dreamscapes, and clairify your experiences. this takes a bit of practice, and i will fully admit to being less adept at it than i'd like to be... still i've been exploring this avenue more deeply. to address your mention of breath in another thread tana, Moss desribes something he calls 'shamanic snoring' (hahaha) which is basically using a deep rasping breath to focus on instead of drumming. i know of several other breath/trance journeying techniques, but haven't actually explored them yet... ...i mostly use the drumming as it is so incredibly reliable, and easy for me. it's more powerful with live drummers, although the work is generally less interesting to me. as a small side note i know that in traditional chinese herbalism merriewanna is considered draining to the qi in the kidneys, and useful in treating extream diaherriha. it wasn't until several year after i'd quit using it that i was actually able to begin journeying. i had to clear up the messes i'd made with that plant... while i was using it my path was blocked... although if i'd started out being able to journey the way i can now, i would never have used substances. the experience is much more reliable, and accessable. [ August 21, 2005, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: Agent Smith ]

08-23-2005, 03:15 PM	#32
zenafire Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 76	Smith, do you know more about why the plant is so inhibitive to dream states other than it is draining to the chi, which in itself is harmful overall? I've had that experience of losing my intuitive and dreaming edge during periods of regular use. I was also less likely to trust the info I was experiencing.

08-23-2005, 04:46 PM	#33
forteanajones Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 630	Hmm, when I first started looking into journeying I had no trouble so long as I gave my full (and sober) attention to the experience, despite being a diehard devotee to said plant. Yet I also have no trouble believing in chi disruption, chakra blockage or intuition interferance for the reasons stated above. I wonder if there may be a compromise.

08-25-2005, 03:18 AM	#34
Agent Smith Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 689	yeah, beyond being told by a very respectable TCM that it drains kidney qi, and my own teacher's refusal to have anything to do with habitual users (which includes regular-'casual' use) i couldn't give you an specifics... it would take some investigation, i've got other things to do with my time though. i know for me personally my usage became problematic because i was ignoring the information the plant was communicating to me. (like 'quit using me you idiot.') extream anxiety, and paranoia, what w.s.burroughs refered to as 'The Fear.' yep good times. i think people vastly underestimate the shamanic potential of cannibis. drums, trance, and dreaming are much easier, and more powerful.

08-25-2005, 01:44 PM	#36
forteanajones Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 630	Agent Smith, in which book did Moss talk about snoring?

08-25-2005, 03:43 PM	#37
Agent Smith Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 689	i've read them all multiple times so it all kind of blends seamlessly... ...but i believe it was the last one, 'ancient dreamways of the iroquois' or some such... i'll have to digest the tenzin bits a little later, but thanx...

08-29-2005, 02:13 AM	#38
tana Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 206	thanks for all your input on this topic, Agent Smith; i appreciate the info. i was introduced to shamanic jouneying via Harner & Ingerman's books...and i did some journeying to live drumming, which was very intense...quite a ride! i found your mention of Moss's 'shamanic snoring' and 'dreamworld-as-an-entry-point' techniques interesting...i'll have to give his books another try. (yeah, i couldn't get through Andrew's books either, but i no longer remember why.) i am currently trying out a detox regime recommended to me by my bodyworker...it’s supposed to clear cannabis residue from the fat cells...i’m curious to see what effect it has on both my waking and dreaming lives! in case anyone else is interested here it is...(* = most important components) supplements: (unless indicated, use standard dose recommended on label) milk thistle - 3 capsules, 2 or 3 times / day dandelion - ditto omega 3 / cod liver oil apple cider vinegar turmeric fresh food components: flax seed - whole or ground, mixed with food at meals (in cereal, etc.) daily tonic made from blending, then straining the following fresh items: -bunch of parsley -whole lemon, peeled -garlic -ginger ...follow this regime for 6 to 8 weeks. by the way, Harry (my bodyworker) swears by this tonic for it’s intense cleansing ability...he said that a frequent smoker could practically pass a urine test within four hours of drinking it, although i certainly would not try to test that theory!

08-29-2005, 03:37 AM	#39
Agent Smith Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 689	sounds like a classic liver tonic! [img]smile.gif[/img] another BIG aspect of my personal practice is physical purification, diet, herbs, etc. my two favorite Moss books so far are "Dreaming True" and "Dreamways of the Iroquois". "Dreaming True" details the role of dreams in the life of Harriet Tubman, a childhood hero of mine. that book changed my life... Moss' next book is a dreamwork book of the dead, which is an interesting component of his dream work practices... ...it's also interesting to me that one of the last books w.s.burroughs published was a dream journal of 35 years worth of his dreams... "If you dream long enough,and hard enough, you will come to know, that by dreaming it, you can make it so...."

08-29-2005, 06:17 AM	#40
forteanajones Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 630	Started my own purification process last week, sans tonic, and plan to head to my local market this weekend to try out Harry's brew (thanks tana). Ironically, it was actually an Mj vision, chock full of archetypal interactions & messages, informed by intense Tarot studies/readings, which finally triggered a series of behavioral changes for me. Mj has loads of benefits for me personally (many non-shamanic ones also) but at the moment the benefits are just extra weight during this regenerative process. This thread has been totally informative and inspiring on multiple levels, thanks to all.

08-30-2005, 06:44 PM	#42
Eagle Wing Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 198	tana, the quote that you attributed to charlie, "As a fellow devotee of mj, i urge caution in the assessment of the interior images, i have sometimes found myself delusioned... she can be a tricky muse and she demands a great deal of inner strength from her interface to be effective." was actually written by me. just piping in to confirm Agent Smith's response that mj drains chi from the kidneys -- this is true, at least according to my acupuncturist who studies 5-element. She says that it draws chi from the kidneys and brings it to the stomach. makes sense doesn't it? So, the result being that the stomach energies are strengthened while the kidneys are weakened. As the stomach is connected with anxiety and the kidneys with courage and willpower, that goes a long way towards explaining side effects like paraonoia and amotivation. I also agree that mj has tremendous shamanic potential, and i have experienced this in certain situations. Like i said, mj works best when the user has enough inner strength and focus to channel it into a ritual application. Otherwise, the power of the plant is usually stronger than the intention and personal power of the user, so their personality becomes dominated/subjugated to it. It is really easy to go in for mjt too much and be weakened by it. It is not an aid to lucid dreaming whatsoever, in fact in my experience it clouds the understanding of the dreamtime. mushrooms, on the other hand... first of all, are far less likely to be overly used (i think that's the main problem with mj, she keeps you coming back for too much) i've always found lucid dreams to increase after a trip. It's a good way to reprogram yourself out of habitual smoking, as well. Probably not as good as iboga though. This really has been a great thread, and thanks for that liver/kidney tonic recipe, whoever posted that!

08-31-2005, 02:23 AM	#43
Agent Smith Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 689	i'll just pipe up to reenforce the notion that with shamanic journeying techniques the ritual use of merriwanna, or mushrooms rapidly becomes completely obsolete. (yeah it does.) (no you shut up.) using fairly light trance states, that are none the less quite potent and powerful has been much more effectve, and reliable for my own personal practice, and for folks who i actually respect in regards to theirs.

09-02-2005, 02:41 PM	#46
forteanajones Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 630	Today I journeyed for the first time in a while. I've been feeling stronger this week than I've felt for many months. This time, there didn't seem to be many non-plant creatures around, so I made my way to a place that looked like a nice fishing spot, and cast a line. I managed to contact a large carp-like creature, who was willing to converse with me, and he was able to help me a little with a problem I have. He also pointed out a little underwater plant and advised me to eat it. I just took it with me, and ate it after I was done. After looking around for more helpers, and finding none, I decided to travel up to the middle world and did something stupid. I decided to visit GWB on a total whim, but when I got within sight of him there was suddenly this flash of light, a tone of some kind and I was flooded with panic and fell out of my journey. This has never happened to me before. I think I could have worked against that energy, but I decided not to. This was a rare departure from my own personal guidelines and I'm still trying to figure out what happened.

09-02-2005, 03:26 PM	#47
franklin Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: nyc Posts: 4	too bad, there's so much you could have dialogued with him about. i have a question for this board: i'm wondering at the very small amount of discussion about the catastrophic events in the last week, does it really ot conern anyone? questions of infrastructure; real solutions to real problems, new ways to commuity build? whatever? are ya'll in shock, or is this whole endeavor just a armchair journey into that dark night.

09-02-2005, 05:54 PM	#48
forteanajones Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 630	Hi Franklin and welcome. I suspect you caught us at a bad time. Half the board is off at Burning Man, it's the start of a three-day weekend, Summer is ending so schedules are shifting, and we've actually expended quite a bit of energy collectively on natural disasters and the like over time in discussions. Shock is probably part of it. I think you'll find if you search for it plenty of dialogue about the tsunami, back when that hit, not to mention tons of other disaster-focused threads. Just my two cents. I for one am totally feeling it, just don't have a whole lot to say about it here although I try to remain focused on it with friends and family, who are only now beginning to realize, sort of, that times are changing big time. [ September 02, 2005, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: forteanajones ]

09-02-2005, 07:03 PM	#49
Eagle Wing Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 198	hi franklin, nice to meet you. there was an interesting piece in the ny times today about new orleans. i've been thinking about it alot. where the "blame" falls is obvious; responsibility is a major issue for the planet NOW how could they have done noawlings better>? maybe not guilding it at all. i've said alot about this already but today my heart was really hurting. i had to stop what i was doing actually to cry for a little while. that's what happens, for me, if i pay attention to what's going on in this world. i knew this (the drowning of NO) was going to happen a long time ago. so did people who were paid a lot of $$ for telling someone who was responsible. so.... i'm just waiting for a big cane to whup long island. solutions? if they were going to build on the silt, they needed to keep up with it IMPECCABLY. for real, like they needed to keep those levees in tip top shape. And Bush's re-budgeting in... 2004... dropped SELA and gave the $$ to the war. that's it. there was a decent proposal for a (sustainable???!!!) NO in 1998. i don't believe such a thing is possible anymore.

09-02-2005, 07:06 PM	#50
Eagle Wing Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 198	forteana, thanks for your lovely posts. your journey reminds me of a dream i had a while ago, about a pond... i think i was too scared to cast the reel in at that time because there was some kind of voodoo monster scaring me off. also when you visit bush in the real world, that tone won't scare you off as long as you are prepared to see... don't visit that creep anyway. the ahriman are all over that shit.

09-03-2005, 10:26 AM	#51
Agent Smith Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 689	hey franklin... this is 'sort of an armchair exercise' IMHFO i come here for leads on information that i am already researching and persuing elsewhere. many of us have lives outside the board as well. btw, thanx for the article in the NOLA thread. i've been dreaming quite a bit about NOLA... ah well. journey work can be useful.