maya-shakti-kali

[daniel]

I found Manning's post on definitions of Kali, and her relationship to Kali's positive aspects, to be very useful to me personally. I realize that I have indeed been in a kind of compative mode since I realized the effects of Kali on my own life, beginning at Burning Man 2003, and continuing since. At that time, I had a wrenching revelation in which I saw the "feminine daemonic" as a through-line through my past, manifested in numerous personal events, such as lack of breast-feeding (my hard-working mother was pressed for time and accepted the "wisdom" of modern science in the mid-1960s that formula might even be healthier, later significantly disproved), my grandmother's lurid and in some ways I would say sexually abusive activities towards me, health problems, relationship problems, and so on, that stretched into the present. Having grown up in a feminist framework, I realized I had always kind of unconsciously accepted the moral superiority of women but that this perspective was not correct based on my past experiences. I have, since then, been seeking a different understanding.

And then, also, as I came to realization about "2012," and the small amount of time that remains to somehow shift people (including myself) from their desouled and cynical perspective to one that is actually healing and balanced, I felt a great resentment against Kali for this seemingly impossible situation in which I felt myself to be thrust.

Manning's post helped me to realize that I was mistaken in my view - I already knew this in part intellectually but the pattern of realization requires a movement from thought-knowledge into a deeper form of realization, a kind of psychic "click" when you really enter into a different frame of understanding. I see that Kali is actually the agent of evolution, as well as liberation, in our present situation - not just see it now, but actually feel it. As an archetypal energy, she cannot be evaded or "fought" but must be internally accepted and worked with, as well as surrendered to. I am really hoping the melting-down of this blockage will help me - it was also exactly the point I had reached in trying to rewrite my book, which is why I have been spending so much time on this topic.

"God is pressure," Dion Fortune wrote.

[whitewave]

Daniel,I too, have come to feel the positive side of Kali in my life, detailed in some of my posts on the love, sex, atomic death thread. I wasn't breast fed either. I think it's a huge contributing factor to how one views "the mother" as nurturing or destructive. I have also been spending a lot of time on this thread because it is helping me break through blockages. I can feel my ideas form as I interact here with others--maybe I would get there without the forum, but I think it would be a slower process, so writing here becomes a sort of psychedelic trip in itself. I'm still not going to spoil the end of Their Eyes Were Watching God for anybody, but I will point out that Kali comes in at the end to join forces with Shakti--the main character (I forgot her name!) becomes whole through manifesting both their energies. Your book really came to me at a crucial time. I am glad we are able to help you.

[whitewave]

Manning,
Thanks for posting the words to that U2 song. I have always loved it, but as I mentioned, don't really hear the words to songs very well. Now that I know them I love it even more.

Daniel,
I recently read a story that might shed some light on what you are going through. It is the story of the Inuit goddess Sedna. I read it in the book "Women Who Run With The Wolves," by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. This is a really good book. It deals with the subject of female intitiation, but I think men can benefit from reading it as well so that they will better understand how to listen to and hear women, which you have mentioned you think is an essential part of our path right now.

Sedna was thrown over the cliffs by her father and drowned for no known reason. Her spirit haunted the area where she was drowned. Ships sank there, and the villagers stayed away from that part of the ocean when then went fishing. One day a man decided he wanted to go fishing there. Either her forgot, or he wasn't afraid of whatever made the sea so turbulent there. He cast a line overboard and hooked onto what he thought was an enormous fish. When he pulled it up, he discovered he had hooked the skeleton of Sedna. She still had her long, beautiful hair, which swirled around her like seaweed. The man was terrified, but he couldn't get rid of her. She was tangled in his line. He sped back to shore with her in tow. She followed him the whole way back into his igloo. He cursed his foul luck, but suddenly was overcome by pity for her and began to untangle her bones and hair from his line. When this was done, he lay down and fell asleep. Sedna watched him. A tear welled up in the corner of his eye. When she saw the tear, she became thirsty. She crawled across the floor to him and drank the tear. She drank until her the thirst of her many years was slaked and lay down next to hiim. While he slept, she reached down into his body and took out his heart. She banged on both sides of it like a drum, and as she beat on it, she sang the words "Flesh! Flesh! Flesh!" The more she sang, the more her body filled out with flesh. When she was done she sang the sleeping man's clothes off and lay skin to skin with him. She returned the drum of his heart. When she was done she sang the sleeping man's clothes off and lay skin to skin with him. And that is how they awoke, untangled from the night, wrapped around each other.

It is the tear of compassion that makes Sedna want to come close to the fisherman. The tear is not just for her, it is for the heartbreaks he, too, has suffered. Once he cries this tear, she knows he can be her mate.

[Thom]

Ouch - Daniels post really nails my perspective on the "feminine daemonic." It has kept me from contributing to the "Love, Sex and Atomic Death" thread.

Most of my trips in the last year have become eventually bleak excursions into the territory of the "Queen of Hell." Intellectually i had gone beyond, but emotionally - and especially while tripping on mushrooms - i kept returning to a hostile tundra world, ruled by a 'type' of Kali.

Makes me think of Garcia Lorca and duende - blah

Sorry for the cursory post but its a shock - today I decided to conciously enter my personal bleak Kali world, and tonight, coming out of it, I find this thread. Hopefully more tomorrow from me.

Manning, U2 lyrics are strong throughout that album - their best work.

[Thom]

Whitewave, that Sedna story is awesome!

Reminds me of The Ancient Mariner by Coleridge.

[daniel]

Didn't know this myth. It is interesting that a large "planet-like body" discovered at the distant edge of the solar system in 2003 was given the name Sedna.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/...like_body.html

[Humming]

Manning, I have a similar picture of Kali to the one that you posted, up in my room, the iconic image of her standing atop Shiva with her flower garland necklace and bloody sword, etc, at the end of her ecstatic dance, after nearly destroying all of existence. I saw that image in a book and was immediately captivated taken by it.

I must confess that I am only somewhat knowlegable about the mythology of Kali, mostly from what I've read about tantra, but I am drawn to her as the "eater of time" bringer of dissolution and resolution, as deamoness and loving mother. I know some females who seem to often occupy this archetypal feminine ferociousness. I am very attracted to that energy in women....

Could someone please expound on the significance of the term "kali-yuga"? I understand what it means in terms of an age of ignorance and corruption of belief structures, but how does it relate to the Goddess herself?

Also, how is Shakti differentiated from Kali? They both represent the feminine, but Kali seems to be apart from the duality of Shiva and his consort Parvati, Shakti. How does this work within the esoteric meaning of the mtyhology?

[ March 09, 2005, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Humming ]

[Lowlight]

The Goddess (Devi) in Hinduism is understood in different ways as there is really no such thing as 'Hinduism' so there are many forms of belief concerning the Mother. Some would view Kali as being greater even than Siva in her form of 'Maha Kali' or 'Great Kali'. Here Kali is seen as both the personal and the impersonal. She is the creator, the maintainer and the destroyer. Other forms of Hinduism would see Kali as the wrathful aspect of Devi (who has many forms). Shakti is the immanent energy of creation which gives life its vitalness and is seen as being feminine in nature as opposed to the male nature which is seen as transcendent and static. Siva cannot act in the world without Kali, hence the traditional image of Siva lying prone with Kali almost springing up out of Him. Then again for a Vaisnava all of this would be irrelevent to some extent as Visnu is what counts. It all depends on which 'Hindu' you are talking to!

Peace

[Thom]

The place i tripped at yesterday is a remote stretch of bleak upland. The only other creatures i saw were ravens, a wild mountain goat and a few desperate thorn trees. Wandering out there, being scoured by winds from outer space, i felt in the presence of nature the destroyer. I felt the harshness and cruelty of life, the apparent hostility of nature. It was an intensely harrowng experience, partly because i had to resist it. To surrender would have been to risk death from exposure. I've tripped up there a few times in the last year, and yesterday went there conciously to face the sense of hostility i've been feeling.

I don't really have the language yet to articulate what i went through, i'm going to need a while to integrate it, but basically i realized that the rational ego splits the Goddess (totality of biological instinctive life) in two, because it's impossible to express the totality and remain a rational ego. Ecstatic saints and saddhus in the himalayas might manage it, but i certainly can't - it may even be inappropriate for westerners.

Anyway, the one half of the split Goddess is identified as that which supports the rational ego, and the other as that which threatens it. This "other" is suppressed. We are educated into making this split. Could the split Goddess be called Shakti and Kali?

Most of our inner lives then become a struggle with the suppressed, enraged other, a series of negotiations, defferals, repressions, doctors notes and often outright war. We idealise the mother, and faithful lovers for their unconditional love, and we demonise nature and lovers who betray us, perhaps partly because we recognise that our own bodies will betray us one day. To unify the Goddess and raise the whole thing to a non-dual plane seems to me intensely difficult, because it can't be done without transforming ourselves utterly. And if we do that, don't we have to leave society? Isn't this madness, from the point of view of the rational ego? Perhaps its simply the difference between the tragic and comic world views...

I realised yesterday that i also have a deeply ambiguous feeling toward Kali. It's more than fear of death, its resentment perhaps at having to live under these conditions. That we should have to live in this place. At the moment i guess i'm a gnostic, though i'd rather love the world. "The horror, the horror!" as Conrad said. Or

"You ask me to enter
but then you make me crawl
and i can't be holding on
to what you've got
when all you've got is hurt.."

as Bono said

(Sorry if this post is a bit cluttered...so is my head)

[Thom]

Also, on the way home yesteray i resolved to study arctic and siberian shamanism and mythology, to try and find out how those peoples view life in Kali's garden. Then i found this thread, and the story posted by Whitewave, and the coincidence just blew me away. Strange!

[whitewave]

Thom said "We idealise the mother, and faithful lovers for their unconditional love, and we demonise nature and lovers who betray us, perhaps partly because we recognise that our own bodies will betray us one day."

I may be repeating myself here, but I think it is worth pointing out what I have said in some of my longer posts. In my experience, the way to accept Kali and all she represents, is to love those who betray us. As Daniel said at the beginning of this thread, this is something we can understand intellectually, but until we actually feel it, will remain an abstract concept that will not free us of our hatred and fear of the daemonic female. I know this because it happened to me. I can't give you a reason why, except that the time was ready, that I had been preparing to reach this point by putting all my focus on getting well, on walking through the doors in my dreams that kept appearing to me because I had to know the truth. That saying, when my lover betrayed me I cracked. I tried to resist with my ego, acting the victim, but my heart knew that the experience he was giving me was what I needed, and that I had attracted it because I wanted to go all the way in my quest for self-discovery. When I saw what a gift he was giving me, forgiveness, for the first time in my life, came easily, and I felt unconditional love, something I never felt from my parents, who society tells us are the ones who will give this to us. Writing it down here conveys none of the pain I went through. Pain is for poetry. But I can say that this pain transformed into joy. I haven't been the same since. Now, I am aware of all experiences that come my way as something I am attracting because they are what I need for my soul's growth.

One other note for those who are into astrology. This "betrayal" occurred at the very beginning of my entering the pluto square pluto transit. This transit is the embodiment of Kali--its purpose is to make you let go of everything that is stopping your growth. If you resist, this energy will be merciless, even to the point where you might die physically. I have been in it a year, with six months to go. Looking at your chart and seeing what transits you are experiencing can be really helpful in making sense of what is happening to you, enabling you to flow with the energy, instead of resisting. Ultimately, I believe we can only feel, instead of know intellectually, when the time is right for us, and that will vary for everybody.

[whitewave]

Manning,
I agree with you that it is important for men to acknowledge the pain that men have experienced at the hands of women--also that it is important for women to acknowledge this pain, just as femininism has validated women's suffering at the hands of men by bringing it into the public eye. If we don't recognize everyone's experiences, we run the risk of being trapped within victim consciousness. Also, I would like to point out once again, that it is very useful to view one's self and all those you interact with, from the Jungian perspective. If you are able to understand that the woman who has hurt you is an aspect of yourself that needs to be acknowledged and healed, or that the man who has injured you is the same, you will become whole, able to relate to all as part of you. Of course, this won't happen all the time! I still get angry and hurt, but I am generally able to shift into this other mindset and transcend the emotion because I recognize it as a part of myself.

It is interesting to see how history comes into play in all of this. We have a generation of men, many raised by feminists to believe that women are morally superior. Many of them were also raised by single mothers. Could it be that these men were born into situations like this because the collective soul needed them to bring the pain suffered at the feet of the daemonic female to the surface of the collective soul? In my experience, the men I know who have been raised by women are more emotionally expressive than those raised by a mother and a father, or at least more open to emotions. Feminism, as a historical movement, came about because of anger at the oppression of women by men. It makes sense that feminist women, especially in the 60s and 70s, when women were first able to get some real power in the male world, would be angry. It also makes sense they'd be angry if they were raising a child on their own. By raising emotionally expressive sons who are angry at them, they are giving us exactly what we need to evolve.

[tesseract]

"It says, "You know, I am different from you. These are my feelings and these are my thoughts. Yes, they are different from yours. We are not going to agree on these points. But that’s all right." But I think many men are quite discouraged and angry when they see that coming up in a woman."

I must admit that I am very confused by women, and in my heart I wish to reconcile thier image.

Like Daniel, I was raised in a incredibly "Feminist" environment. My mother worked for Zonta International and she (and myself) was exposed to a lot of "Feminist" rhetoric. This deeply offended my father, who eventually left the both of us. He could not deal with the freedom and experience my mother craved.

The "Feminism" I was exposed to was smug, snide, abusive and displaced energy. As a young boy I was constantly excluded and dismissed because I was a male. I "could never understand" the experience of women simply because of my gender, and I was treated like some novel beast that cannot control his mind or orgisatic tendencies. My Grandmother demanded that I make bowel movements each day, forcing me to drink quarts of prune juice and laxitives - watching over me and not allowing me to get up off the toilet, and my mother struggled with exerting power over me, at times squeezing my genitals until I would cry when I got out of line. "Feminism" seemed to me to be hateful and militant, and I began to despise the rhetoric my mother and her co-workers spewed back and forth to one another. But to this day, the one thing that still touched a nerve is THE EXCLUSION. I am tired of being excluded and made to feel that can never feel for myself, in my heart, the experience of the female. I CAN, and perhaps it is selfish but I want that to be acknowledged. No, we're not going to agree or see eye to eye on everything, but I want someone to fucking admit that WE CAN.

I am really confused about all this, and thank God for this forum and you people bringing it up to explore it...I am listening!

[Thom]

Whitewave, thanks for your inspirational response to my post. I've been following the discussion in the love sex and atomic death thread, so am familiar with your perspective. When you note, "the way to accept Kali and all she represents, is to love those who betray us." This is good advice, but tricky to follow - i feel that at the moment it is me who is betraying me! Interesting about the astrological side of things, I'll definitely look into that.

When i say "we idealise the mother" etc I wasn't speaking personally, i don't idealise my mother. I also grew up in a feminist household, and during my adolescence my mother had a series of violent nervous breakdowns. So i feel like i've had first hand experience of kali at her wildest...but i do love my mother, and have forgiven her for some pretty cruel things.

Interesting that Daniel and Tesseract mention abusive grandmothers. Again, I had similar experiences as a child.

[Thom]

A book that helped me work through my mothers negative effect on my personal development was "The Origins and History of Conciousness" by Erich Neumann. Fantastic book, well worth reading.

[daniel]

hi tesseract and thom,

it's great to hear your voices in this debate.

thom: "To unify the Goddess and raise the whole thing to a non-dual plane seems to me intensely difficult, because it can't be done without transforming ourselves utterly. And if we do that, don't we have to leave society?"

Yes, we do have to leave society, most likely. We have to leave it in order to return to it, bringing with it a different level of knowledge and understanding that can help to transform it. That is the natural path of those who would like to be shamans or truth-tellers for their community - separation and then reintegration, bringing back the wisdom that is needed but rejected, in a form that it can be integrated. Personally, I had to leave my own family when I began to grapple with the nature of these deep-buried issues - I didn't go far, however, just across town.

In all of these areas, I think the key is found in a deeper understanding of time - what Gebser called the "aperspectival" view. All of our different "ologies" (evolutionary psychology, anthropology, biology, etc.) can help us create a proper understanding of the nature of eros, and how it can be rearticulated and reshaped into a form that is more appropriate for our current age. Once we have attained a proper understanding of what is happening and why it has happened, we can actually move to the stage of trying to address the problem - until we have attained clear understanding of the problems, no solution is possible.

read "the skeleton woman" section in Women Who Run with the Wolves last night, found it very beautiful... more later...

[gone]

I’m currently working on this from a theological direction, trying to establish a complementary (rather than reactionary) element to feminist theology/spirituality for men (and I expect the first men to “get” this to be the ones who grew up in feminist households; I have those “he can’t come in here, he is penis” memories too).

Starting from within feminist theory I think this is going to end up revolving around men as “other” to God in exactly the same way as women (or, paradoxically, “one” in exactly the same way), separating what is considered normative (patriarchal) spirituality from male spirituality. My cursory explorations suggest that if you can unbind male experiences from patriarchy (without denying its existence) you start to get a multiplicity of experiences (spiritualities) which are not gender exclusive, while avoiding being gender blind. I’m hoping this may lead to some really new fertile territory.

The important thing to remember for men is this is not a “the pendulum has swung too far the other way” situation, which nearly all “men’s movement” discussion tends towards. There is no obvious transactional element here where women have achieved ground at the expense of men. In return, the new ground men can secure is not done so at the expense of women, rather at the expense of patriarchy.

[whitewave]

In return, the new ground men can secure is not done so at the expense of women, rather at the expense of patriarchy.--Gelfer

Yes, Gelfer! Our problem is that "we" have been so mired in our subjectivity that "we" can't see or feel beyond our own pain and suffering. Political femininism that focused on women's equality in the material world was a good, perhaps necessary,first step in enabling women to voice their suffering at the expense of patriarchy. However, if we are to collectively evolve, we must turn inward. Now that women, in western culture at least, have a voice, we can allow ourselves to do so. It's a whole different game when something is a choice, rather than a command. Of course, some people (actually pretty much everyone in the U.S., even many who don't realize it) think the patriarchy is just fine. I would say that it isn't, not because it is based on male power (indeed more and more women are doing quite well within the patriarchy. Hillary Clinton, Condoleeza Rice, Martha Stewart), but because it is a system based on hierarchichal control. Whoever is at the top dominates. This will repress the soul, stop it from meandering where it needs to go in order to grow, at the individual level, and at the collective. Right now I believe we need to form new systems of social organization based on consensual decision making. Any of you who have participated in consensus know how difficult and frustrating the process can be to those of us who come from a patriarchal culture, but in my experience, I have never enjoyed working with people so much before. Also, consensus focuses on the proccess over the product, always reminding us that life is to lived now, not when we've earned enough money to retire and do whatever we want.

I'm just feeling my way around here, but it crosses my mind that the experiences of sexual violation the men here are describing (combined with other men that I know personally), could also be a necessary, albeit painful, part of the process of reintegrating ourselves, our societies, and our souls. Maybe this abuse has gone on for centuries, or maybe it has just come out through feminism as women gave voice and action to their anger. The fact, however, that it is the grandmother's who are crossing these boundaries, makes me think that it has been going on for a long time. A sort of retribution by the crone for not being seen as powerful--in a twisted inversion she punishes the powerless male children within her control. Powerless is the key word here. This happens to children who don't have the benefit of reflection like we do, and my heart goes out to all who have had to experience this. We can talk about archetypes and the collective soul all we want, but it will not necessarily make that pain go away. It makes sense that men grow up to abuse women mentally and physically, just as it makes sense that women who have internalized the patriarchy grow up to allow themselves to be silenced and abused. Interestingly, I was sexually abused by a woman. I think I was 5 years old, but I suppressed the memories until I was 21, when I fell in love for the first time. Being in love made me feel for the first time what it was like to be in my body. I didn't have the persective to realize this at the time, but I can see now that I had been out of it for a long time, probably since the age of five when this woman "stole my skin," the protective covering of my soul. (check out the chapter in Women Who Run With The Wolves about the seal maiden.) As I came back into my body, all of the emotions I had buried came back. I remembered what had been done to me. I was so repressed --fear at what my parents would say stopped me from even getting angry. I turned all the anger inward and became a chronically depressed alcoholic. Through a long process, I have worked through all of these emotions and now spend most of my time in my body, although I do love to daydream.

I think an essential part of letting go of identifying yourself as a victim is to realize that your soul chooses what you will experience when you enter a particular vessel, whether it be a human body, the collective soul of wolf or whale, an elf soul, a milk thistle soul, or one of these mathematical equations people describe on their trips. I believe the soul chooses because it needs to experience everything that is available wherever it is embodied, it gives equal value to shadow and light. The soul craves it all. This isn't the same as saying that life is about suffering. This is saying, that to the soul, suffering is as important as joy. Yes, I admit, it seems impossible sometimes. I have often been overwhelmed at my suffering, and even more so when I let my mind wander out into the wilderness of suffering I see around the world. I'm not saying that my words are the ultimate truth. They are just what enables me to keep on going, and since I have come to these realizations I have outlined here, I now experience joy sometimes, a joy to light the dark corners of suffering where my friends hide.

I agree with Manning that it is important to go at one's own pace and I hope my stories don't make people who are not in the same place as me feel there is something wrong with them. I am careful to observe before I speak when I am around actual people, knowing that my words could alienate if they don't fall on receptive ears.(they could alienate me too--sometimes when I have mispoken I can tell people have no idea what I'm talking about, or they just don't want to hear about the apocalypse anymore!) I have made myself vulnerable here because I hoped that, by revealing myself, I would enable those who have not been able to open their hearts to do so, and also to give support to those who have. Maybe I feel compelled to do this because I am so isolated. You all here are really the only people I have to talk to about these matters. If you're tired of hearing my whole life story then let me know and I'll go out and try to get the seals on the beach to talk to me! I just know that hearing other people's stories is a much better way for me to understand something than from reading a textbook. While I find that analytical thinking puts cracks in my vessel, it is vulnerability that floods my soul.

[whitewave]

I just realized I didn't stretch my idea as far as I wanted to....
At first when I heard the stories from men about being sexually violated by women, I thought that this might be something that men were experiencing collectively in our time because it was something they needed to experience so as to be better able to understand and relate to the suffering of women who have been abused. Then when I made the connection that it was the grandmothers who were doing this, I began to realize that this was something far deeper than karmic retribution with the intent of helping us achieve integration through balance at the human level. The grandmothers, in many spiritual traditions, are our connection to the earth. When the grandmothers lash out, it is because they have been injured. Who has injured the grandmothers? The patriarchy, which has systematically devalued the earth by conquering it, one flower at a time. As we know, this didn't happen in a day. It has been going on for a long time, and now the grandmothers are fighting back like a snake coiling in upon herself, killing her own children because the earth is not a fit place for them to live anymore. What do we do? Let go. Shed our skin. Slide across the surface of the earth on our slinky new scales and look for places to lay eggs. Eggs to hatch forgiveness. Awaken the snake inside ourselves by cultivating kundalini. Know that it is inevitable to spiral in, but that eventually the spiral will implode, scattering us into the ether to drift around until some other need (a person, a planet, a galaxy) sucks us back in, back into the whirlpool. No matter what happens, know that the water will wash us clean.

[daniel]

i have to admit a slight annoyance that i do think more than tangentially relates to this topic. I get sick of the endless insistence on "healing" in Jungian/New Age discourse. I suppose what I am saying is i agree with whitewave above, i think we would be much better served - and better serve others - by considering ourselves healthy from the start. As Sri Nisagardatta says in I AM THAT: "Get hold of the main thing: The world and the self are perfect, it is only your atttitude that is faulty and needs adjustment."

I think focusing endlessly on healing becomes a kind of stuck place - after all, if we who are the pampered products of the western world can't claim ourselves as healthy in this current world, then who the heck else is going to do it? As long as you feel you have long processes of healing to do, that becomes the focus of your attention and you can't move into a more proactive, productive mode.

Of course one keeps "working on one's self," doing the healing, but first claim your own agency, recognize your own basic goodness and wholeness and intrinsic healthiness - and go from there.

[gone]

I can dig that. This is why I think it’s important to loosen the ties between patriarchy and masculinity (without denying the connection). By doing this we begin to move beyond women’s experiences as forged in the fire of oppression and progressive men’s experiences of shame under the historical shadow of patriarchy.

For many men their connection to patriarchy is akin to modern-day Germany and Hitler: it can result in a mode of passionless apology, which is of little use to anyone.

[whitewave]

Daniel,
Thanks for pulling that thought out of my elliptical ramblings and stating it so concisely. I often wonder if I am too obtuse. After reading your comment, the thought crossed my mind that the emphasis on healing--as always seeing ourselves as in a state of becoming--keeps us trapped within the capitalist, consumer mindset--some people act this out literally by buying more self-help or spirituality books, some pay money to healers, or pay for workshops, believing that what they need is outside themselves. Others act this out within themselves, never getting to the point where they are at peace with who they are. Where do we see the words "new age" the most? In bookstores, magazines, on bulletin boards promoting some service for sale. I worked in a new age bookstore for six years. I saw the same people come in to buy "the new release" year after year. I'm not sure if I'm saying there is some plot within the new age movement to keep people from achieving the very freedom they desire by realizing they do not want to be healed so as to guarantee a continued income for "the healers," I am just questioning the health of the healers themselves, and encouraging people to consider the motive of those who would purport to heal them. What would Deepak Chopra do if none of us bought any more of his books? If all of us declared ourselves whole? Maybe if this happened none of us would exist in our current forms, but I postulate that Deepak would grow a bio-dynamic permaculture garden to give us food to satisfy our healthy souls.

[Humming]

That Sri Nisagardatta quote is very similar to one that I have up in my room by Swami Rama, "Life does not need to be changed. Only your intent and actions do."

I think that healing itself is actually the realization of this, the realization of perfection through intent. So, many people may think in terms of "healing" but this really means that they need to realize wholeness in themselves. It is much the same.

[daniel]

I think that the desire for healing often becomes another addiction. It is, for me, another disempowering manifestation of Kali, in a way. People still feel they can't be secure in themselves, now they need a shaman or an alternative therapy or something else to fill the void.

This is also my personal feeling about Western astrology, which I have never pursued. If I know what I am doing and why I am doing it, then the stars are radiating from me, I don't need to seek guidance from the stars.

[whitewave]

Manning,
Realizing that one is healthy and whole does not mean that one will not go through all the experiences we normally think are part of "healing." I do think, as you suggested to Daniel, that choosing a different word for this process is important, and will help us readjust our perspective about how we should go about living on earth. How about initiation instead of healing? The experiences we think we need to heal from are going to come to us because the soul needs them to grow. As a person who has identified myself as an alcoholic, I found 12-step culture helpful at one point, but eventually tired of having to see myself all the time as "recovering," as needing to be healed. When I made the realization that everything that happened to my ego was because my soul needed it to, I walked away from recovery and into a deeper realm of initiation. Sometimes I slip up and use the word healing, but from now on I am going to be vigilant and use initiation instead. Initiation, as I define it, is a process in which the mysteries of the soul are revealed. If we realize that suffering is part of getting to know our soul, it will be easier to let the more painful experiences flow through us to deepen the river of our soul, instead of getting stuck on having to "heal" and "recover" from them. From the first time I met with my shamanic teacher, she emphasized that her intent was to enable me to shift my energy back into a state where I knew I was whole myself. She always emphasized that I didn't need her, although this took me a couple of years to figure out. Sure, she was great for advice, and much more adept at working with energy than me, and had a direct line with the spirit world, but she never told me I couldn't do all those things as well. I am definitely suspicious of the unconscious motives of those who work in the healing professions.(and in some, the conscious motives). Why are so many healers invested in telling us we have to go through a long, drawn out process in order to be whole? I think ego needs, the desire to make a mark on the world, come into play here, the need to feel empowered, or just powerful, as well as the simple fact that people are making money from being therapists, healers, etc. I recognize that most of us in the U.S. still need to make money to survive, but I think it would be a huge step in our evolution if our "healers" could let go of "healing" us. To do so would recognize that initiation is an ongoing process. Once we get to one level, we begin again at a new one. If more of us were aware of the phases of initiation, we could help each other. From reading fairy tales, I think was once the case in western culture. Women Who Run With The Wolves demonstrates this brilliantly, although I think Estes often uses the word healing in conjunction with initiation. I'm proposing that we drop it now. Sometimes it's all so complicated--my mind loves to generate echoes--but I know that this feeling of wholeness isn't difficult to achieve. It is always available. Look in the eyes of everyone you meet. You'll see yourself there. Listen to a breaking wave, or the wind in the trees, you'll hear the sound of your own breathing. Touch someone's skin and discover your own heat.

[whitewave]

Manning,
Why don't you want to suggest that some words should or should not be used? Because you are afraid this will invalidate someone's experience? I feel that as long as I express that I believe that we should or should not use particular words, then I am not invalidating their experience. Maybe you're not suggesting that to do this would invalidate an individual's experience, it's just what popped into my head as a possible reason, mostly because it is what would stop me from stating my beliefs (and has). For me, to suggest that we use or don't use a particular word is an essential part of what I perceive morality to be--what is best for the collective soul of humanity, which may not necessarily look like the collective good. Suggesting alternative words is a way to shift consciousness, with the goal toward shifting the reality that consciousness manifests. Bearing this in mind, I think it is not only appropriate, but my responsibility to suggest that people use or do not use certain words. I will strive to do this with the sensitivity implicit in the word suggest. Thank you for suggesting it to me. And yes, I can look in a rapist's eyes and see myself. And in the eyes of one being tortured. I don't know if I was being explicit enough so I am going to be explicit now in case people didn't understand me on the literal level--what do you see when you look into someone's eyes? A reflection of yourself on the black screen of their pupils. The eyes are the mirror of the soul.

[whitewave]

Manning said--" So I find it kind of weird that we're even discussing this idea of whether or not it's okay, or appropriate, or best, to use the word "healing" in conjunction with the word "broken" in this space."

OK, I'm going to try one more time because I feel like we're missing each other here. Yes, I understand what you mean--when one is wounded,either physically or psychically, one needs time to recover from the wounds. This recovery time is what we call healing. The distinction that I am trying to make is between healing as a time when we regain our strength, and healing as an ongoing task we must complete in order to be well again. We are well right now. I suggested another word because I think the implications the word healing carries in many cases stops us from realizing that, even when broken, we are whole.

What I have been saying all along is that if we realize that everything that happens to us happens because our soul needs it to grow, then we will realize that all is as it should be. I'm not saying that we will not be broken. We will feel broken, we will look broken, we will act broken, and we may not ever reach the point of realization I am talking about because we feel so broken. However, once again, speaking from personal experience, I know that if we dive beneath the feeling of brokenness and reach a place were we understand that our soul needs us to break, then we will be grateful for being broken. This is not something that can be understand purely on an intellectual level, and that is why we have to break, for in breaking we encounter our heart, where forgiveness takes place. Forgiveness leads to unconditional love, the recognition of one's wholeness and connection to everyone, even those who have broken us. I know that by using prose here to write this down I am only engaging you on an intellectual level, but I am a poet also. What I am talking about is subtle, perhaps the only way to talk about it effectively is through poetry, which if it's a good poem to me, is experiential. That is why I continue to make myself vulnerable through storytelling here. We are living the myths we read about in books. Why not directly relate our lives to them? Think about what brought us here to this forum--Daniel's book. "Breaking Open The Head." When our intellect cracks, our soul gushes out all bloody. Who wouldn't be scared and think they need surgery to patch it back up?! Has it ever occurred to you that the soul wants to explode? That the soul is a river that's been dammed, pushing against its barriers. It wants to break and wander where it will, meandering toward the ocean, where it can once again no longer recognize itself from the one wave.

One more thing, I'm not sure that suggesting is a form of control. I think it's a matter of timing and intent. I have had people suggest things to me, that when the time was right, and their intention was for my best interest, were exactly what I needed to take the next step toward greater self-realization. Maybe my tone and word choice gave the impression that my intention was to control rather than offer creative solutions, but I also think that your preoccupations could be coloring the way you interpreted what I was saying.

[daniel]

how about "readjustment" instead of "healing"?

To pull out the full, wonderful quote from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj - which i would suggest that manning meditate upon, as i have been meditating on the Skeleton Woman story:

"Get hold of the main thing: That the world and the self are one and perfect. Only your attitude is faulty and needs readjustment.
This process of readjustment is what you call sadhana. You come to it by putting an end to indolence and using all your energy to clear the way for clarity and charity. But in reality these are signs of inevitable growth.
Don’t be afraid, don’t resist. Don’t delay. Be what you are. There is nothing to be afraid of. Trust and try. Experiment honestly. Give your real being a chance to shape your life. You will not regret."

Manning,
I feel it is the healers who are often seeking to control the individual's narrative through their insistence that there is a patient, there is a sickness, there is a long process - perhaps never-ending - that will perhaps not quite lead to a cure in the end. I would say, following Namkai Norbu, that samsara and nirvana are two manifestations of the same energy. You are already a Buddha, already absolutely, joyfully healthy and living in innumerable Buddha realms. All you need is a "readjustment" of your vision in order to see it.

[whitewave]

Manning,
Just curious--have my words let you to think I am trying to sugarcoat pain? Because that is definitely not the case in my life off this board. I do agree that over-nurturing can shut people down from their going as deeply into their pain as they need to, and that it is important to just let people be sometimes, or to just be a witness for them.

I read a story last night that goes back to Tesseract's plea that it be recognized that men have the ability to know the same pain and suffering women go through. Once again, it's in Women Who Run With The Wolves--the last teaching story, near the end of the book. It's called The Handless Maiden. It is a fairy tale that enacts a very complete initiation process where the Queen and the King go through equally harrowing journies. I recommend it to the men here who are feeling what Tesseract expressed so poignantly.

To quote Estes:

The fact that both the handless maiden and the king suffer through the same seven-years-long initiation is a common ground between feminine and masculine. It gives us a strong idea that instead of antagonism between the two forces, there can be profound love, especially if it is rooted in the seeking of one's own self.

[whitewave]

Manning,
I am glad that you think that prose is an effective way of communicating on a deep level as otherwise, in my eyes, we would sort of be wasting our time here. I just got the feeling from some of your replies that you didn't understand what I was saying. I think that often we know something in our "gut" as you say, but that our brain gets in the way from us reallly understanding it. Thanks for the link. I will have to read it later because right now I have to run to catch a ferry to get off this island! Talk to you in a couple of days. And Manning, I admire your passion, and don't take offense when you "come on strong." I think that means we are really getting somewhere, and by that I don't mean that you are getting what I mean--I mean we are beginning to co-create. So thanks. bye