Preparing fo the transition

[mossy knoll]

Hi Daniel,

This is my first post. I have some questions for you and wondered if you would mind discussing them.

1) Some time last year after Katrina, I saw a news clip about a community in Florida facing another hurricane. Everyone was running out to Home Depot to buy plywood to cover their windows. They ran out of supplies, and there were riots over the last few sheets of plywood. Our country is totally dependant on various transportation systems to deliver a constant supply goods for our consumption. As I saw the televised plywood riots, it became obvious to me that all it would take is a shut down of those systems for a few weeks, and entire regions of the country would find themselves in those same riotous situations. Any number of scenarios could create this breakdown. Given the vulnerability of those delivery systems and the scarcity of natural resources, there will almost inevitably be a breakdown in our infrastructure at some point in the future. Given that, do you think it would be better to live in a city where people could cooperate with one another and share resources or do you think it would be better to be living self-sufficiently in a more rural area, either singly or in some sort of cooperative? My thought is that the cities could actually be either very dangerous as chaos erupts and people begin breaking down their neighbor’s doors looking for food and other resources, OR cities could be very good places to be from a cooperative perspective. Rural areas could also be either very difficult or very good places to be. I tend to lean towards the rural option. Given all of that, what are your thoughts about this and how do you plan to prepare for 2008?

2) In the final chapter of 2012, you described your conversation with the Hopi elder Gasheseoma. His mention of his belief that “the U.S. government was already building “machines” for exterminating huge populations, which would be employed as resources dwindled” was particularly disturbing to me, since I don’t find it that unthinkable. Either something in his account, or an assumption on my part was that those "machines" would be used against the U.S. population. Thinking of that and of the other Hopi prophesies talking of the destruction of the America, have you ever thought about moving outside of the U.S., and if so, which countries would you consider and for what reasons?

3) I’m also wondering what you think about the accounts given by Edgar Cayce about the earthquakes and the destruction of America's West Coast and Eastern Seaboard that is (or was) supposed to have happened around now. I believe Northern Europe was also supposed to be significantly affected. Atlantis was also supposed to ascend from the ocean floor somewhere off the coast of Florida. Additionally, he mentioned very cold regions of the Earth becoming more temperate and that "ferns and mosses would grow" there. (I'm wondering if this last part was indicative of a shifting of the Earth's magnetic poles, which has been documented as having happened multiple times in the past.) Along with Edgar Cayce, a very interesting book was written by Chet Snow called Mass Dreams of the Future. The premise of the book is that through hypnosis, he and Helen Wambach led people to experience their future incarnations. These subject's accounts again detailed a future United States that had been drastically changed by massive earthquakes and extensive flooding. He also mentioned the appearance of Atlantis somewhere in the Caribbean. Additionally, while the subjects seemed to describe 4 distinctly different existences, they unanimously told of a Earth with a dramatically reduced human population. I believe the dates for these changes ranged from ~1998 - ~2012 or a little later. I don't recall these ideas being mentioned in your book. (I know you mentioned that the moment a prophet makes a specific prediction that it's likely to be averted by the cosmic forces simply to confound us.) I'm wondering what your thoughts on this are.

4) There is an interesting book by a contemporary author named Carl Stegmann published through the Rudolf Steiner press called The Other America. It talks about the spiritual forces at work in America, and the importance of a spiritual awakening in this country. He (and Steiner) pose that if there is no such awakening here, that humanity and the Earth will be diverted from our spiritually intended evolution and that the Earth and humanity as a whole will be permanently bound to Ahriman's control. Stegmann also mentions Ahriman's physical incarnation and the year 1998 (1998 = 666 x 3 ) being a significant milestone in Ahriman's schedule of events. Stegmann's description sounds much like a reference to the antichrist. Would you mind discussing these ideas a bit?

5) I'm sure it's mentioned on the board somewhere, but I have not seen it yet. Metaphysics discusses how the physical world is precipitated by spiritual forces and how we influence the physical world with our thoughts, ideas & imagination. Assuming this is true, if we truly want to change the direction that humanity is traveling, we should participate in spiritual action towards those means along with our direct physical efforts. I'm fairly new to metaphysics. Would you or would others in the group mind talking about some of the specific spiritual efforts that you see appropriate for us to implement? I'm hoping for some specific guidance.

Thank you !!!

[daniel]

yikes! big questions.

1. I don't usually support the idea of relocating to a rural location on high ground. Maybe I am stupid. For some people it could be the right thing to do. My feeling is that if a social and ecological collapse happens in total chaos, the possibility is greatest that nobody will survive - desperate people tend to consume anything they can get their hands on, burn nearby forests for wood, etc. I think that the effect of a totally unstructured collapse would be a deeper biospheric breakdown. Therefore, I see the best alternative being the creation of an infrastructure to support collaborative activity and the dissemination of alternative technologies of energy production, food production, etc., in a scaled-down or slow-motion collapse. Along with this, we need a new media paradigm - educational, providing things like permaculture tools, do-it-yourself, spiritual, optimistic, noncynical, and transformative. I think that if these two things are in place well before things spiral out of control, then there could be an ordered transition. I also feel that people who are fully integrated with this new paradigm will need to be in urban centers to help and heal the populace, and through the collaborative infrastructure described above, stop them from becoming a raging mob.

2. No I don't think about moving outside the US or doing anything that is based on fear. This situation is warrior training in overcoming fear rather than giving into it. My intuition is that a lot will happen almost simultaneously at the critical juncture. My past story seems to suggest that I will end up where I need to be - that in a sense this has all already been scripted and is now unscrolling, as the Hopi also say.

3. Who knows? Somebody says one thing about the future and somebody else says something else. Despite the negative possibilities of the transition ahead, I feel a tremendous positive force is gathering that is much more powerful - consciousness is evolving at a tremendous rate, and we will be able to create a "New Jerusalem" on this earth, after a bit of turbulence. The story is clearly about the evolution of consciousness - our institutions and technologies are emanations of a certain frequency of consciousness that embodies separation, anxiety, shadowy control urges, alienation from the natural world, etc. A new realization of mind will unleash a new paradigm, along with different tools and techniques and technologies.

4. The book sounds interesting as one thought-projection. I do think that a spiritual renaissance or revolution is necessary in the United States, as this will then spread across the planet via our media and communications platforms. The Transcendentalist impulse is as deep in the American character as the Fundamentalist one.

5. Let me come back to this one - perhaps others have ideas?

[nyk]

Originally Posted by daniel

I don't usually support the idea of relocating to a rural location on high ground. Maybe I am stupid. For some people it could be the right thing to do. My feeling is that if a social and ecological collapse happens in total chaos, the possibility is greatest that nobody will survive - desperate people tend to consume anything they can get their hands on, burn nearby forests for wood, etc. I think that the effect of a totally unstructured collapse would be a deeper biospheric breakdown. Therefore, I see the best alternative being the creation of an infrastructure to support collaborative activity and the dissemination of alternative technologies of energy production, food production, etc., in a scaled-down or slow-motion collapse. Along with this, we need a new media paradigm - educational, providing things like permaculture tools, do-it-yourself, spiritual, optimistic, noncynical, and transformative. I think that if these two things are in place well before things spiral out of control, then there could be an ordered transition. I also feel that people who are fully integrated with this new paradigm will need to be in urban centers to help and heal the populace, and through the collaborative infrastructure described above, stop them from becoming a raging mob.

Do you really think those two things will even remotely be in place
well before things spiral out of control? How would a totally unstructured
breakdown (of humanity) lead to a deeper biospheric breakdown? People
burning their tires for warmth? You are going to hang onto city conscious-
ness all of the way, ehh? So much for listening to Isaiah!

[daniel]

if the financial resources were available, they could be operational in six months, and I could escape this place and move to the woods within a year or two.

[K.J]

Originally Posted by daniel

yikes! big questions.

1. I don't usually support the idea of relocating to a rural location on high ground. Maybe I am stupid. For some people it could be the right thing to do. My feeling is that if a social and ecological collapse happens in total chaos, the possibility is greatest that nobody will survive - desperate people tend to consume anything they can get their hands on, burn nearby forests for wood, etc. I think that the effect of a totally unstructured collapse would be a deeper biospheric breakdown. Therefore, I see the best alternative being the creation of an infrastructure to support collaborative activity and the dissemination of alternative technologies of energy production, food production, etc., in a scaled-down or slow-motion collapse. Along with this, we need a new media paradigm - educational, providing things like permaculture tools, do-it-yourself, spiritual, optimistic, noncynical, and transformative. I think that if these two things are in place well before things spiral out of control, then there could be an ordered transition. I also feel that people who are fully integrated with this new paradigm will need to be in urban centers to help and heal the populace, and through the collaborative infrastructure described above, stop them from becoming a raging mob.

I think urban centers and mega-cities are the future for humanity (and the best thing that could happen to planet earth, if built using enlightened design practices). For many that statement probably sounds counter-intuitive. After all, aren't large city's the evil detritus of the industrial age? Maybe. But maybe that's an outmoded way of thinking.

Spend some time at the Worldchanging website (and if you're really motivated, buy the book) and you'll get an idea of why I would make such a seemingly ridiculous statement.

[sidecross]

What may I ask will happen to the old, the disabled, the medically unable to name just a few groups who could not move to a rural or self sustaining life style?

[craazyman]

you're toast.

[magicbean]

I haven't yet bought any stock in the apocalysm fever day trading, so with that in mind...

What may I ask will happen to the old, the disabled, the medically unable to name just a few groups who could not move to a rural or self sustaining life style?

Aw, everybody knows they're not the Chosen Ones. Only the hip and young with mad homesteading skillz will be saved! Sorry guys, I'm in a rare pit of sarcasm today.

Look what happened in Katrina - the most fragile of us were left behind. If there's to be any real evolution into adulthood for homo sapiens, I hope we'd make caring for the vulnerable important.

KJ - agree. It's entirely possible to be in touch and in harmony with the natural processes of the earth and not have to homestead or live in the woods to live gently on the earth. Alongside worldchanging, I'll beat the drum again for "Pulse" by Frenay, who champions the potential for cities, manufactuing processes, economies, and technologies to begin to work in a way that reflects biological processes rather than controlling them. It's happening already.

mossy knoll - you directed your questions to daniel, but I'm going to chime in anyway. Like I said, I don't buy the inevitability of an earthly apocalypse. Perhaps the best way to prepare for any emergency is to begin to live in a way that might dilute their effect. Not by hoarding supplies and building shelters and living in fear of the potential of disaster, but by asking yourself how what you do today helps keep those fragile and unsustainable systems in place.

[gandydancer]

KJ said: [i][/I think urban centers and mega-cities are the future for humanity (and the best thing that could happen to planet earth, if built using enlightened design practices).I]

And MagicBean replied: KJ - agree. It's entirely possible to be in touch and in harmony with the natural processes of the earth and not have to homestead or live in the woods to live gently on the earth.

I just could not disagree more! It may be that I am so prejudiced because living close to nature is all that I know from my childhood, and adulthood too as far as that goes. Almost all of my childhood memories are of nature--the huge silkworm moth that pinched me when I tried to pick it up, the milkweed pods that my older sister told me sometimes have little doll clothes in them, the iced-over creek that I fell into and almost drowned, listening to and watching the Aspen trees that really do "quake" with every little breeze, the lone Tiger Lily at the beaver pond and the lone Columbine flower in the willows and the Mariposa Lilies alongside the creek, the rocks we jumped and climbed that kept a constant series of bobos on our knees and elbows, the little meadow that we took our baby rabbits to after mama made little halters to put on them, watching the rabbits go "thump, thump" on the ground when ever an eagle flew over and being able to trick them for a while by thumping on the ground with our fingers, building camps in the woods and seeing the dead coyote by our camp, watching the little baby goat die in the morning after he had put up such a brave fight for life all night long... What would happen to the little girs like me who needed to see the stars, jump the rocks, wade the streams, and see the wild flowers? ...and what I typed here is just a tiny little bit of my memories of nature.

Count me out of "urban center and mega city" life. For me that would be, to (mis)quote Chief Seattle, "the end of living and the beginning of survival". Bah!

[sidecross]

These are some sober statistics from a Special Issue of Scientific American date 9/05 titled Crossroads for Planet Earth.

“…everyone 45 years old or older today has seen more than doubling of human numbered from 3 billion in 1960 to 6.5 billion in 2005.”

“…Whereas in 1950 the less developed regions had roughly twice the population of the more developed ones, by 2050 the ratio will exceed six to one.”

“…the average life span grew from perhaps 30 years at the beginning of the 20th century to more than 65 years at the beginning of the 21st century.”

“…if the worlds urban population roughly doubles in the next half century, from 3 billion to 6 billion while the world’s rural population remains roughly constant at 3 billion, and if many cities expand in area rather than increasing in density, fertile agricultural lands around those cities could be removed from production, and the waters around costal or island cities could face a growing challenge from urban waste.”

The bottom line is we need creativity and new ideas to forge our future. This is not the time to throw up our hands and walk away.

A species that could escape the Earth gravity and go to the Moon and beyond is certainly capable to solve the problems listed above.

The only thing I see lacking is the will and the imagination to do so.

[magicbean]

gandy, you know my heart's in the land

But I see your disgust with cities - there's zero connection with biology in cities, zero! No chance for the learning and wonder that arises out of that connection. And that's the problem.

But what if we could start to design places to accommodate significant numbers of humans and leave room for ecology? Then cities wouldn't have to be so unsustainable, by definition.

(You still don't have to live in 'em!)

[gandydancer]

Of course I do Magic . ...but can we "design" beaver dams? ...Sidecross is right, cut back on the babies!

[gandydancer]

Ha!...don't get me started on watching the beavers come out at about 7pm, or watching them work endlessly on the beaver house and the dam, and seeing how they keep a few aspen and birch around the house for a horrible catastrophic year of starvation (humans could learn something from them), or the "Nine Mile Bad Road" sign for the name of a road that we actually came accross while driving in the country that was just exactly that, with a stretch of the road actually being a beaver dam, beavers, beavers, who wants to know more ?

[nyk]

Originally Posted by daniel

if the financial resources were available, they could be operational in six months, and I could escape this place and move to the woods within a year or two.

If. If wishes were kisses I would be wearing five layers of hickied skin from
head to toe. You're going to have to seduce some big benefactors for this!

[daniel]

magicbean: "Like I said, I don't buy the inevitability of an earthly apocalypse."

What would it take to convince you? The evidence is absolutely available:

- by 2050 all ocean fisheries finished - no more fish in the sea - at the present rate of consumption

- sperm count of men dropping 1 % a year for the past 20 years (due to increase in endocrine disruptor chemicals such as pesticides)

- water crisis: glaciers disappearing - 2 billion people get drinking water from glaciers

- species extinction: from 25 - 50% of all species gone in next 30 - 50 years

- "Peak Oil" reached last year - while demand continues to climb, supply decreases

- use of "depleted uranium" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia

- global disappearance of frog and amphibian species, the "canaries in the coal mine"

- rampant increase in childhood Autism and other mental diseases and disorders

- climate change and global warming could lead to 1/3rd of human race dying in next 30 years, according to a study by the Council of Foriegn Relations

- all of the evidence in The Inconvenient Truth - in books such as God's Last Offer, The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight, The Long Emergency, The Chaos Point, Silent Spring, Power Down; the UN Millenium Ecosystem Report, etc.

I don't mean to bring anyone down, but unless there is a rampant reorientation of global humanity in the next few years, an "earthly apocalypse" is here.

[Damien]

^exactly...

[Thom]

Indeed. Self sufficiency doesn't necessarily mean growing your own veg, and moving out to the country. Certainly a pointless endeavour in the UK anyway, where there are very few empty places to relocate too. Maybe there is more to it in the USA, but i'm sceptical.

I suppose I see those who run to the hills as avoiding the situation. Maybe I am missing a depth to their intentions, a commitment to a future that would require new communities in wilderness places. I don't mean to sound harsh, I have friends living in intentional communities, but there is a nihilism to their escape which, it seems to me, is a refusal to accept the given conditions of our age. There is great potential in the cities and large towns, so many emotionally and physically skilled people - if they can be liberated from the outmoded forms of being, and be prepared for the disappearance or irrelevance of government, then the self-organization that would inevitably occur could make a genuinely psychic transition between phases happen that much quicker.

If mad max incarnates as the messiah, then living on a commune won't save us from the rampaging bands of road warriors. I suspect that if the cities die then so do we all, we will have failed. Maybe its too late anyway, and humans will disappear, like the neanderthal and the sidhe and all the others who came before. We've lived our functions and now must be dissolved, like the polar bears.

The bifurcation theory is compelling, admittedly. Perhaps the goblins will be netting salmon at the weir, and those focused on the death and rebirth consummatory climax at the source will simple overleap them...and those who cling to life will remain trapped in time.

Maybe it is Gaia making a shift between dimensions, and needs to slough off the whole lot of mentalised humans who are weighing her down. Maybe stripped naked in the slipstream, we'll all make sweet love in eternity, rolling on Gaias freshly mossy flanks, and making multidimensional art with our voices...

[graffitirun]

this might be obvious, but rather than preparing for the transition... an event of no precedence

it is beneficial to think and act upon it as a matter of preparing the transition or preparing your transition ...according to the way you would like to see things turn out.

Maybe it is Gaia making a shift between dimensions

I have faith in a planet

I feel, sometimes, that humankind is completely foolish to think it can destroy a planet. Scuff its surface, rip the roots from the soil.. sure. But complete destruction - perhaps not.

As Bruce Sterling pointed out in Shaping Thiings- Oblivion is nothing to fear, no one would be around to complain. What is far worse is a slow steady decline.

It occured to me yesterday as i moved through a concrete jungle, swinging from vines and smoking on trees, is that the city is the scrawny dream of minerals and rocks.


Nature is really beginning to emerge from (or into) its own dreamtime


As dreams are the healing songs from the wilderness of the unconscious -- so wild animals, wild plants, wild landscapes are the healing dreams from the deep singing mind of the earth. - "Medicine," by Dale Pendell


..and humankind operates inbetween the matter of minerals, rocks and crusts of the lower earth and the explosion of the wilderness, the wild, the organic, the nature, the plants and so on... acting as an instrument to facilitate the dreams or whims with which it is faced.

for some time humankind has understood mostly rocks.

[sidecross]

As I tried to post on another thread, if we humans could summon up the imagination and use our resources to escape gravity and go to the moon and beyond, I see no reason other than a lack of will to solve our current dilemma on Earth.

The old saying ‘it’s not rocket science’ is a tongue in cheek comment to our current dilemma on Earth.

[graffitirun]

it's an old saying but youre right..

moon landing 1969
summer of love 1967

sputnik begins 1957
Gordon Wasson publishes Mushrooms, Russia and History 1957

[Thom]

Mossy Knoll wrote:

5) I'm sure it's mentioned on the board somewhere, but I have not seen it yet. Metaphysics discusses how the physical world is precipitated by spiritual forces and how we influence the physical world with our thoughts, ideas & imagination. Assuming this is true, if we truly want to change the direction that humanity is traveling, we should participate in spiritual action towards those means along with our direct physical efforts. I'm fairly new to metaphysics. Would you or would others in the group mind talking about some of the specific spiritual efforts that you see appropriate for us to implement? I'm hoping for some specific guidance.

If we are ready to accept the reality of the psyche, and its attendant other dimensions of being, then it follows that standard western education has left us totally ignorant of the more important aspects of our existence. Our sponsored learning is focused purely on the mental, strengthening it at the expense of intuition and imagination, the sensuous body and soul of origin, leaving us top-heavy, teetering on the brink of the abyss, 'piloting' from the egoic cockpit. A disastrous situation.

Therefore we need to re-educate ourselves, and train the imagination, as an invalid might need to lift weights before being able to walk again. Personally I memorised poems, songs, myths, using visual mnemonic techniques. Its easy and pisses off literature snobs This gives the inner being a storehouse of images, and i consequently feel better tuned in to recieve the messages transmitted by body and inner life. So, the imagination is the beginning. After that its into the sphinx of subjectivity with ye, and good luck! Do align with a tradition that feels right to you though, if you can, hopefully one with nearby human beings in it.

For some reason i hesitate to post details of what i consider spiritually efficacious techniques. I worry that the net is a reality eating machine, and i'm a bit protective of my experiences of tenderness, grace, love.

I do think singing has much potential. Song is intensified speech, afterall; it dumps the clutter and communicates the essentials. Some of the old ballad melodies can be quite furious on the ego. I've seen hard old bastards reduced to weeping and sobbing by Lord Randall, or Spancel Hill, or whatever. I've also found that singing when the tea is strong a very effective means of focusing on, or even discovering, intent. Obviously the physicality of song is mantra-like, uniting mind and body when they might otherwise drift apart.

The words really don't matter, but when they have archetypal depth, the effect can be significant.

In the future, human language will, i feel, become more song-like and will communicate visionary experience. "Ordinary" comunication will occur through telepathy.

Singing, to yourself or another, is an extraordinarily powerful technique; after all, the man quietly talking in the corner who then leaps up and bursts into song has become a very different creature.

I think individuals, gathering together and singing can have reality shaping effects, and, who knows, maybe even affect the weather or levitate the Burning Bush.

[Thom]

Gandy:

the city is the scrawny dream of minerals and rocks.

Blake wrote, "Cities are men." I sometimes think of that when i find myself imagining the city as a tumour.

[Damien]

Originally Posted by Thom

Indeed. Self sufficiency doesn't necessarily mean growing your own veg, and moving out to the country. Certainly a pointless endeavour in the UK anyway, where there are very few empty places to relocate too. Maybe there is more to it in the USA, but i'm sceptical.

Basically it does, unless you install hydroponic lifts in your study and sow seeds on your rooftop. There is no corner grocery in a environmental fall situation. That carton of milk isn't going to be there.

Originally Posted by Thom

I suppose I see those who run to the hills as avoiding the situation. Maybe I am missing a depth to their intentions, a commitment to a future that would require new communities in wilderness places. I don't mean to sound harsh, I have friends living in intentional communities, but there is a nihilism to their escape which, it seems to me, is a refusal to accept the given conditions of our age. There is great potential in the cities and large towns, so many emotionally and physically skilled people - if they can be liberated from the outmoded forms of being, and be prepared for the disappearance or irrelevance of government, then the self-organization that would inevitably occur could make a genuinely psychic transition between phases happen that much quicker.

Most of them are escaping to survive. See Baghdad. First, they have to be able to eat, see above.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by Thom

Maybe it is Gaia making a shift between dimensions, and needs to slough off the whole lot of mentalised humans who are weighing her down. Maybe stripped naked in the slipstream, we'll all make sweet love in eternity, rolling on Gaias freshly mossy flanks, and making multidimensional art with our voices...

Thom, what a beautiful post and transcendent perspective on mossy knoll's question above!

I don't know what to say about sidecross' fear, apart from that i hope the health system will have hand written information about the needs and whereabouts of sensitive individuals in case of a crisis. I remember the blizzard of 1978 in Sweden, we were lucky to have a chest freezer and oil boiler, and a mother that had plenty of wool in stock to knit more sweaters and socks!

We were housebound for i, think, three weeks, and the army had to get the tanks out to bring feed for cattle, bring birthing women and ill people to hospital etc. After that, we managed to get out of our secon story bedroom window, and us kids used to taboggan down from the roof.

The snow stayed 'til end of April, and then we had a pond on the field for three years, which we skated on in following winters.

It was a good time in my memory, because there was an end to it.

I believe in gathering as many skills as possible in a lifetime for living a good life, not only for survival.
Just learned basic MIG-welding this summer, it is fun!

Right Now, Thom's words above makes sense, and i will think of them when in doubt...

Love and Respect,
~N~

[nyk]

Originally Posted by sidecross

As I tried to post on another thread, if we humans could summon up the imagination and use our resources to escape gravity and go to the moon and beyond, I see no reason other than a lack of will to solve our current dilemma on Earth.

The old saying ‘it’s not rocket science’ is a tongue in cheek comment to our current dilemma on Earth.

Yes! Let's send all of the drones and assholes into space. We can
turn the moon into one big shining city! And turn the Earth into a park.

[magicbean]

Originally Posted by daniel

What would it take to convince you? The evidence is absolutely available:

I don't mean to bring anyone down, but unless there is a rampant reorientation of global humanity in the next few years, an "earthly apocalypse" is here.

The evidence is available to indicate that there's a huge problem, and believe me I know all the stats. My job is all about climate change and people and I'm very well aware of the massive disconnect between the way humans live on the earth and the reality of ecological imbalance. A change in the way humans tread on the earth is necessary. But whether or not it demands mass cataclysmic destruction..well...no one really knows that. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it hasn't and no one knows the reality of it until something occurs. Evidence of what problems exist now is not proof that tomorrow we're all going up in flames.

I find it odd that the voices here most vocal about living in "heaven on earth" and having the faculty of mind to consciously create the world you desire are the most apocalyptic in vision and willing to believe unquestionongly in a hellish tomorrow. Weird. Sidecross is again right - if the power of consciousness is so great, then nothing is unsolveable. Again, I think asking yourself how you participate and help prop up the unsustainable world is much wiser than handwringing. Be here now, right? Do humans, does one personally have the willpower and the goodwill to start living like one belong here in balance and respect, part of the system rather than master of it?

[daniel]

magicbean,

i feel my positions are consistently misrepresented back to me in your posts.

i agree with you - if we could start with a fresh slate today, we could deal with the problems rationally and compassionately, reallocate resources globally, and most likely there would be no mass cataclysm. Whether today or tomorrow or next year, that is the possibility I support.

you write, "I find it odd that the voices here most vocal about living in "heaven on earth" and having the faculty of mind to consciously create the world you desire are the most apocalyptic in vision and willing to believe unquestionongly in a hellish tomorrow."

I find that this is a misunderstanding of my perspective, if you are including me in this generalization - I can't speak for others. I do not believe "unquestioningly" in "a hellish tomorrow," but I do accept the evidence for an accelerating slide unless there is a transformation of human consciousness - along with a set of tools, techniques, alternative technologies, and specific practices that can be applied to a multitude of divergent circumstances.

You can say "noone really knows that," but that is a bit silly, in my opinion. If I see a car speeding toward a concrete wall at high speed, I certainly don't "know" that the people inside will be injured - a miracle might intervene - but I can strongly suspect this will happen.

[Damien]

Originally Posted by magicbean

The evidence is available to indicate that there's a huge problem, and believe me I know all the stats. My job is all about climate change and people and I'm very well aware of the massive disconnect between the way humans live on the earth and the reality of ecological imbalance. A change in the way humans tread on the earth is necessary. But whether or not it demands mass cataclysmic destruction..well...no one really knows that. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it hasn't and no one knows the reality of it until something occurs. Evidence of what problems exist now is not proof that tomorrow we're all going up in flames.

I find it odd that the voices here most vocal about living in "heaven on earth" and having the faculty of mind to consciously create the world you desire are the most apocalyptic in vision and willing to believe unquestionongly in a hellish tomorrow. Weird. Sidecross is again right - if the power of consciousness is so great, then nothing is unsolveable. Again, I think asking yourself how you participate and help prop up the unsustainable world is much wiser than handwringing. Be here now, right? Do humans, does one personally have the willpower and the goodwill to start living like one belong here in balance and respect, part of the system rather than master of it?

There is no recorded evidence of a humanistic Environmental Revolution that's swept across the globe to drastically change the face of earthly ecology. The language for the human capability for environmental paradigm shift into a sustainable equilibrium hasn't been translated into a language that can be understood by a mass seething populace. Unless you were to count the modern trend towards degredation of the environment as a revolution. It hasn't been done before. Spiritual revolutions, see any Major World Faith. Philosophical, see European Rationalism, Classicism, Eastern/Western schools. Science, Empiricism...Alchemy. Art, search your closest museum or library.

[nanouk]

If we were told that there was a 99% probability that car emissions were going to give our offspring leukemia within 6 months of their birth, we wouldn't scrap that technology.

~n~

[magicbean]

Originally Posted by nyk

Yes! Let's send all of the drones and assholes into space. We can
turn the moon into one big shining city! And turn the Earth into a park.

I have to admit the "saved and chosen" versus "all those jerks who just won't wake up and be enlightened like us" gives me the moral creeps.

If I see a car speeding toward a concrete wall at high speed, I certainly don't "know" that the people inside will be injured - a miracle might intervene - but I can strongly suspect this will happen.

Sure, just like I pretty much assume that unless it's cloudy the sun is going to appear in the sky tomorrow morning. More than anything, humans crave order, more than sex or comfort or power (credit this thought to Huston Smith) and we rely on that order to function. But your analogy is not complete, since with the entire earth there are uncountable factors at play and very, very little that we understand in enough depth to see all the answers, it's just not that simple. I don't agree that any human has enough of a grasp on the process to really know in same the way one has enough knowledge about the car crash. We do see a big, big imbalance. How that gets resolved...well...there's innumerable ways to came back into balance.

Sorry you feel misrepresented. I sense you get that a lot, not just from me. There's a very apocalyptic tone to what you write, and you are surrounded by lots of apocalyptic-tenored voices.